He feels better, so he wants to move back...

[Depression = 72% of members]

I read somewhere today the following, which is something I have preached far and wide amongst friends and loved ones for a long time now:  If your goals do not scare you, they are not big enough. 

Doing what is right and best for the long term often brings with it discomfort in the present.  How worth it is it to you?  From what I've read of your journey, it sounds like very.  You can handle this empath.  Temporary pain for long term gain.  How lasting and damaging a reaction do you expect?  What support can you gather around yourself to ease that?

Is it possible that the feelings of 'finality' are also somewhere deep down holding you back a little?  That's natural and I can relate.  Others will too.

Love and light x

[Harley Quinn]

I read somewhere today the following, which is something I have preached far and wide amongst friends and loved ones for a long time now:  If your goals do not scare you, they are not big enough. 

Doing what is right and best for the long term often brings with it discomfort in the present.  How worth it is it to you?  From what I've read of your journey, it sounds like very.  You can handle this empath.  Temporary pain for long term gain.  How lasting and damaging a reaction do you expect?  What support can you gather around yourself to ease that?

Is it possible that the feelings of 'finality' are also somewhere deep down holding you back a little?  That's natural and I can relate.  Others will too.

Love and light x

[empath]

HQ, it is very much worth it to me. I have been developing my support system for a while now, so I have a group of people around me who know what is going on. Honestly, I don't know what to expect since h has distanced himself from the people who were pushing him to be vindictive and entitled. He doesn't have as much of an image to maintain now, though. His typical reaction is to withdraw.

There are definitely feelings of 'finality' that make it harder. I'm sad that he still can't quite turn toward a relationship with me or the kids. He called today and was wondering how much longer he would have to take our daughter to her workout.

[Radcliff]

That's good news that he's distanced himself from people encouraging him to be vindictive and entitled.

You've got D14 I know, but you said "kids."  Do you have older kids?

Hmmm... .so he asked how much longer he'd have to give her a ride, as if it's a chore?  That struck a chord with me, as my two older teenagers don't understand my wife's DV and are living with her, so giving them rides is almost the only time I see them.  I would gladly give them rides all over town, every day.

WW

[empath]

We have 2 older kids: s26 and d22. Our son is married, and they have a baby who was born very prematurely. Our daughter is finishing up her undergrad at a local university and working full time; she moved out a little over a year ago.

Hmmm... .so he asked how much longer he'd have to give her a ride, as if it's a chore?

A chore is a good way to describe it. I was going to let him continue as long as he wanted because I thought it was a good opportunity for him to at least have some regular contact with her. I know a lot of men would love to have the chance to spend more time with their kids.

[empath]

So, I'm thinking more about how to go about telling h that I don't want him to move back in. There doesn't seem any way to really 'support' or empathize in this situation, so maybe a BIFF format would be better for it.

[Radcliff]

Congrats on launching two!  We also have three, with the first two closely spaced and recently launched and #3 several more years behind.

So, I'm thinking more about how to go about telling h that I don't want him to move back in. There doesn't seem any way to really 'support' or empathize in this situation, so maybe a BIFF format would be better for it.

BIFF sounds like a good plan.  Feel free to run it through with us if you like.

WW

[Mustbeabetterway]

empath, it does sound like BIFF sounds like an effective format for what you are trying to accomplish. 

I'm sorry for all the hurt you have been through.  You seem to be keeping a clear head even through very difficult times.  How are you feeling? 

I can certainly empathize with the sadness you are feeling with the finality of telling your husband that he cannot return.  I am dealing with the same type of sadness at the end of my relationship.  But you seem resolute in your decision, so that must give you confidence to move forward.

We are rooting for you!

Mustbeabetterway

[empath]

I do feel some sadness about the situation, grief of the losses and the change in the nature of our relationship. I have a good friend who I met with - she experienced the mental health issues and abuse in her first marriage. It helps to have someone IRL who knows the situation and is realistic about it and about the risks.

Between the public nature of his leaving and my support system after I told them the reality of what he was planning, it might be easier for me. I don't want to cover over his actions. It's also been much better for my daughter and me since he has been gone.

The other thing is that we would lose our ability to have health insurance if he were to come back. He doesn't pay for that for us.

[Radcliff]

I am sorry for the sadness and grief.  I'm only just beginning to understand it in my situation.  Do you have a timeline for when you are going to tell him?

WW

[empath]

On the h front, he keeps asking us to have dinner with him. I got a call this evening where he suggested that he could come with us to a free movie night... . I said I wasn't sure whether we were going to the movie - we might not be able to make it. I didn't tell him that d has a required sporting event earlier that evening and we aren't sure how long it will take.  

Sometimes, I just want to say go.away.

I think I might need to tell him sooner than I originally thought.

[Radcliff]

What are your thoughts on his interest in dinner and the movie night?  Might these be seen as a healthy interest in spending time with his daughter?  It sounds like you are not comfortable, though.  Can you elaborate?

Is the sporting event something a dad might enjoy being at?  Would your daughter welcome him being there?

WW

[empath]

My thoughts on his interest in dinner - his roommate is gone a lot these days or is just unavailable. H has said that he is really lonely lately, and his requests have a needy quality to them. He wants the outward appearance of a relationship without the obligations, and to him, working on the relationship means inviting me to go out. Going to dinner is one of the criteria by which he judges our relationship - the other is going for walks. (and probably if I pushed, going to church together - but he isn't doing that right now)

His primary interest is in seeing me; our daughter is an add on. I don't want to give him the impression that 'things are going well' and then tell him that he can't move back. I try to be as consistent as I can with him.

As far as the sporting event, they are setting up for their practices. Our daughter wouldn't really welcome him being there; it would be awkward for her.

[Harley Quinn]

His primary interest is in seeing me; our daughter is an add on. I don't want to give him the impression that 'things are going well' and then tell him that he can't move back. I try to be as consistent as I can with him.

It must be difficult for you to think of him considering your daughter as secondary.  Right now I'm sure that it would help you to feel better about things to know that he values seeing her and wants to build a better relationship with her as a priority. 

It sounds like a wise decision to keep things consistent if you are planning to say he cannot come back home.  This makes sense to me that he could view it as mixed signals and have a worse reaction to the news.  Have you decided how you're going to approach broaching this and when?  Do you have anything to plan around or finalise before this happens?  We're all behind you in doing what is best for you and your daughter.   

Love and light x 

[Radcliff]

I understand your reluctance to do dinner if it feels like he is just trying to get to you, and you are concerned about sending mixed signals.  Notwithstanding your doubts about his motivations, he'd still be missing a chance to see his daughter.  It's important to her well being to have the strongest possible bond with him, even if he is far from perfect, and even if she seems disinterested now.  Years later, it will matter.  Could you set expectations with him about a dinner?  Say that you want him to have time with her?  Something like, "Honestly, with the way things are between us I'm not feeling much like dinner, but it's important to me that you be able to spend time with our daughter."  What about suggesting instead that he dine just with her?  Would they be able to have a good dinner?

WW

[empath]

They wouldn't be able to have a good dinner. She is processing his past abusiveness and neglect toward her; that makes it difficult for her. It is easier when I am with them, kind of mediating their relationship.

So, I'm concerned that they do have some contact. This weekend, I was willing to go to dinner with him and our daughter - but he wasn't able to. Her availability is limited starting this week due to her practice schedule.

I was talking with him yesterday about his roommate's situation. I found out that their lease is up in September, and his roommate may have a different place to live by then. Afterward, I thought maybe I could say something like we need to think of this separation as a long term situation.

[Radcliff]

That's great that you are trying to facilitate their relationship -- it's good for her.  Yes, teenagers are pretty hard to coordinate schedules with, especially if they are into sports!

Being up front with him that you are looking at the separation as long term seems like a good idea.  Do you think he'll dig and ask if you want a divorce, or will he skip past the uncomfortable part and try not to think about what you've said?

WW

[empath]

I think he would rather just skip the uncomfortable part - I think that's why he wants to move back. I don't think he will ask whether I want a divorce. The more uncomfortable part for him right now is the prospect of living by himself (and planning for the future and following through is not really something that he does much).

[empath]

Yesterday, h came over to let me know that he had paid the rent. He seemed like he wanted to talk for a longer time and asked if d and I wanted to have dinner with him, but I was in the middle of something at the time. He sent an email asking about moving back. In the meantime, I texted him saying that we could have dinner with him that evening, and we did.

This afternoon, I replied to his email saying that I thought of our separation as long term and that I knew that there were practical considerations for all of us right now.

He just responded that he knew in his "heart of hearts" that it was too soon.

So far, so good. Who know what will happen when the reality of the situation hits him, though.

Honestly, it was soo tempting to give more information than was really necessary.

[Mustbeabetterway]

Hi empath,

Good for you.  Sounds like you are holding your boundaries but keeping communication open which seems to be a good choice.  I’m glad that things are going smoothly.

Peace and blessings,

Mustbe

[empath]

Thanks, Mustbe. It feels like threading a needle sometimes with holding the boundaries and open communication.

I haven't heard from him again since the email Sat afternoon; he has been calling Sunday after church. On one hand, it would be completely understandable for him to not want to talk to me. On the other hand, the silence is a bit concerning. When he moved out, he had a dramatic post on fb and told people not to ask. Of course, they contacted me.

[Radcliff]

I totally get how reflexive it is to worry about your pwBPD's state and what they might do next.  Try to just breath and focus on what you've got going on.

How was dinner?  Was he able to have good interaction with your daughter?

WW

[empath]

Thanks WW. I've been trying to breathe, be mindful of my actions and wait it out.

Dinner was good. He was able to talk with our daughter about school and her activities.

[Radcliff]

Dinner was good. He was able to talk with our daughter about school and her activities.

Glad to hear it!

A while back, you said you were about to start an internship when your husband left.  Did you start it?  You also mentioned that your plan was to build your strength and you were thinking about divorce.  It sounds like you've been doing a lot of personal healing in the last few years, and have gotten help with that.  What are your plans and what milestones are ahead of you on your path to financial and emotional recovery?

WW

[empath]

My internship began about 3 weeks after my h left, and it ended a couple weeks ago. I've been working with our local workforce center to get training and experience to enter a new field. Unfortunately, the work that I have been training to do requires experience, so I have a team of folks trying to help with that. It's not looking promising at the moment though. I'm applying for positions and trying to find something that would bring in some income and be satisfying on a personal level.

My emotional recovery is farther along. I'm doing a lot of reading in subjects that I'm passionate about and doing things that I want to do. I have some creative thoughts about future possibilities.

[Radcliff]

Congratulations on finishing the internship!  I'm glad to hear that you have support with the next steps, and am glad to hear of the progress with your emotional healing.

What are the things that would need to happen for you to be ready to move ahead with a divorce?

WW

[empath]

I really want to have a job and a place to live (that h isn't paying for and isn't on the lease) before starting the divorce process. I don't feel safe moving ahead right now because h still has access to the house and has come over unannounced while I was out. He took some things from the house including some belonging to d14 without asking.

Last night, he posted something on fb about the pursuer/avoider dynamic in marriages. It was based on attachment styles, so I was reading up on the different styles: secure, pursuer, avoider, and disorganized (both pursue and avoid; the push - pull dynamic). Some of the articles that I read said that people with a disorganized style tend to be abusive and dangerous.

I thought that might be an alternative way to describe what has happened in our relationship, at least to people who are more knowledgeable about such things.

[Radcliff]

I can definitely relate to wanting a safe space.  If you could click your heels three times and magically be in an apartment tomorrow with only your name on the lease, would you be ready to file?  Where would you say you are on the five stages of Detachment (see right-hand sidebar)?

WW

[once removed]

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