Dang it I've been bamboozled

[Harri]

So, I have been fighting off this feeling for a couple of months but it all came to a head last night.  See, I absolutely despise being manipulated even subtly.  It obviously comes from my childhood, that is no brainer.  My mother lied about everything and tried to manipulate events to work in ways that she wanted.  I am particularly sensitive around this issue in terms of friendship and with managers.  Yes, it cropped up in work issues but i was able to distance myself from it.  

She enlisted a few people to befriend me.  An older person to 'mentor' me or 2 other kids my age she admired so I could be like them.  I always found them out though.  something would slip.  Like the older one said "your mom is worried about you" and proceeded to try to talk with me.  Talk about obvious never mind assuming I would be dumb enough to say anything about my mother, family or my feelings and what I was doing.  Idiots!  Two friends my age turned mean and one said I only hung out with you because your mother asked me to.  I don't remember what the other one said, but I do remember shutting out people even more.  Shared nothing with anybody because everyone were users or trying to play me for a fool.  Trust no one.  :)on't be an idiot.

This still plagues me as an adult.  Like I said it would happen when I was working.  Of course upper managers 'mange' people but some are so obvious, especially because I am hyper-aware.  One, was honest about it and would say "Harri, I need to keep you busy other wise you get yourself into trouble"  Too true.  We laughed about it and sure enough my productivity was high.  I then figured out how to keep myself busy and it was rewarding for everyone.  I could handle being told the truth even though I did not particularly like it, because it was direct, honest.  I can handle anything that is offered directly and without meanness or manipulation.  But the other stuff?  Underhanded glad handling to get me to do something they want or to string me along so I think I am doing a great job and they like working with me rather than just needing a body.  Or almost grooming you to get you to do what they want.

Or with my nurses.  I don't work due to physical disabilities.  I have nurses that have visited for long periods of time (first, over 2 years, 2nd time about 15 months - same home nurses both times).  I think of one in particular as a friend... .but wait... .she is my nurse and I only see her because it is her job.  Of course she laughs and jokes with me... .she is being paid to do that!  Idiot!

***And I am dumb enough to believe that people actually enjoys my company.***  That right there is the problem.  Being so happy, and feeling so accepted and even liked and finding out it is a manipulation or just them doing what they have to do anyway.  I get that this sort of manipulation or grooming takes place (I still hate it though) and it has to take place in organizations.  

It is just hard to overcome the feeling of having been stupid and eager and happy for something that was just a set up.  Even if it only began that way - my trust is, not broken, but damaged.  I have been fighting this feeling for a while now.  I know I am overly sensitive now because my nursing visits will most likely stop soon and I will lose my friend/nurse.  The last time I felt like this is when I took in my crazy assed ex-friend.  Nope, not doing *that* again.  I am here to figure this out damn it.

I know what my hot button issues are.  I even know why i have them.  But how do I work with this and build trust when what is setting me off is perfectly natural behaviors that just about everyone does?  We all schmooze (hopefully not to the point of being slimy though).   People in business network.  Managers manage/play people.  Validation, the scripts people use to talk in business like ways, it is all very obvious to me most of the time and  I can usually handle it as a fact of life.  But not when I make it personal and start calling them or thinking of them as a friend.  Not when it feels personal.  Not when I feel like a fool for falling for it once again.

Is this part of push//pull behavior?  I do have problems with trust and getting close to people as friends.  

Is this me finding a reason to push people away?  

Is this familiar to anyone?

[Learning2Thrive]

  Harri!

I don’t have time to leave a detailed reply right now, but wanted to tell you YES THIS IS FAMILIAR TO ME, too. I actually had a recent incident occur just a few weeks ago at my part time job. It was horribly painful but I’m really proud of myself for how I handled it. It was the first time I stood up, documented and reported (this actually crossed over into age-ism/harassment). It shook me up for days even though things were verified and resolved in my favor.

More later if that’s ok. It absolutely affects our ability to trust and be vulnerable. Sending you hugs and genuine compassion. You are an awesome person with an amazing heart. I am so sorry you’ve experienced this too.  

L2T

[Harri]

there is a feeling of betrayal.  My mother sold me up the river time after time. 

That is not a surprise though.  It is just who she was.  I don't even relate that to BPD or Schizophrenia.  That sort of stuff comes under the Jerk Factor.  I think a lot of what we have a really hard time figuring out is related to that. 

The thing is... .I kept going back for more and more and more.  With my mother, with my 'friends' with my employers.  Time after time always telling myself Don't open up Harri!  Don't trust.  Don't be an idiot. 

Yet then I would forget and keep going back for more.  Wanting to be liked, needed, and valued.  So desperate.  So damned eager.

[Learning2Thrive]

Yet then I would forget and keep going back for more.  Wanting to be liked, needed, and valued.  So desperate.  So damned eager.

Yes, me too. And you know what, I know I am going to do it again.

Sure, I try to learn something each time so my discernment sharpens a little. But. But. BUT! The sweetest moments of my life have come out of being eager and hopeful and allowing myself to be vulnerable. It’s true, I give people the benefit of the doubt until they give me a reason not to.  I think that’s a good thing and something the world could use more of. Because I need that and I am so thankful for the wonderful people who gave me the benefit of the doubt.

I think most of us need that human connection that blooms as trust is built. There is nothing quite like it. 
 
More after I get home from work. My break is about up.

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Harri, 

  to my friend whom I've never met in person. It doesn't matter if I've never seen you; I still care about you... .very much.

And I am dumb enough to believe that people actually enjoy my company.***  That right there is the problem.  Being so happy, and feeling so accepted and even liked and finding out it is a manipulation or just them doing what they have to do anyway.  I get that this sort of manipulation or grooming takes place (I still hate it though) and it has to take place in organizations.

I'd like to take the liberty of re-wording this if I may, because I wonder if this wouldn't perhaps be the real cry of your wounded heart and mine as well:
"I desperately want to believe that people actually enjoy my company."

For every one of us adult children survivors, we seek to find that place of acceptance by others because we didn't find it as children, and perhaps not even as adults. That's why we work to recover, to rewrite the beliefs that seem absolutely true but are lies to the very depths of our souls. We do belong, and there are people who enjoy us. But can we accept it and not fight it, not fight the voices of the inner critic which says we are not worthy of being liked and enjoyed?

Fight it, Harri, please do. Re write those inner voices. You are worthy of friendship. So am I.

 
Woolite

[Learning2Thrive]

Fight it, Harri, please do. Re write those inner voices. You are worthy of friendship. So am I.

Yes! This exactly. WE ARE WORTHY. Wools is so right. We didn’t have parents who helped us build our self worth. Ours did the opposite. But we can build it ourselves with the help of each other and those like us who seek genuine friendship. I think this is exactly why sharing our struggles here means so much. It helps all of us.

  L2T

[Turkish]

It was hard to deal with losing the ABA techs last year who entered or homes to work with S8. D6 was along for the ride. I especially bonded with the last tech. It was hard watching them play with and hug my kids.  They told one,  who resigned from the company for personal reasons, that they loved her.  She was one of the best with the kids.  My ex wanted to reach out to see if she wanted to meet,  but I advised against it.

Part of it could be viewed as being cynical: "they get paid to care about the kids and our family. When they're off the clock,  they don't care.  It's fake."

What's Wisemind though?

Yes, they get paid,  but they likely got into the career because they are co-dependent BPD manipulators caring people.  My mom,  an RN, thinks that nursing is full of pwBPD.  She might touch on a smidgen of truth, but I like to think of the better angels of humanity... .despite the fact that I met my uBPDex as a fellow mentor of at risk teens.  Rescuer professions are full of people who are into themselves.  *smacks self with paw*

Might be!

Yet I know my ex really cares about the people she works with (people with mental disabilities)  and despite my mom's limitations, I know that she did too as a nurse.

Validation seems to be the White Whale of us PSI kids. It's good that we're all here to work on it together 

[Pilpel]

***And I am dumb enough to believe that people actually enjoy my company.*** 

Harri,

I am so sorry that you are feeling the way you do.  I have similar feelings but with a completely different set of childhood experiences behind it.  My mom could be manipulative.  Maybe because I haven't deal with it as much with other people outside of my mom, that was never much of a trigger.  For me, I think the problem that I've been dealing with the most since childhood is a lack of validation, feeling unimportant and invisible.  This was a running theme in my childhood.  When you don't get validation at home or among your peers at school, it does something.  I feel like I became awkward, self-conscious, and introverted in ways that perpetuate the invalidation.   

But I have to say, I've traveled around a bit.  And sometimes I do think the place you live or work makes a difference.  When I was out of high school, I lived for a short period of time in a different country.  And I felt like I jumped into a happier parallel universe.  I was around an inclusive group of people.  Every day I had the experience of feeling validated.  And my personality blossomed.  I became more out-going, I didn't worry about what people thought of me, I was fearless in how I expressed myself.  I felt like I was completely in each moment, instead of feeling a step behind the moment --if that makes sense.  And just like the lack of validation creates habits that perpetuate it.  The validation created habits that I think made me more attractive and interesting and perpetuated the validation.  But at the moment, I live in a rural area and I'm not working.  And here I feel like I'm reliving my childhood.  I make efforts to connect with people and build friendships, and to get involved with the community.  Yet after so many years, I still don't feel connected to the community.  I believe people like me, and they seem genuinely happy when I invite them to my house.  But I feel like there is very little effort on their part to build the friendship.  And it gets me depressed when I think about it.  I think it would help to get a job, so I'm making an effort to get part time employment in the fall, and we plan to move soon.  I'm hopeful about those changes, yet fearful, too, that it won't make a big difference. 

[Panda39]

Hi Harri,

I always enjoy your company and our friendship   

I like much of what Pilpel has said.  I experienced much the same thing when I finally opened up, was very honest, exposed my fear, shared and asked for help from my friends (who up until then I kept at a distance) during my separation and divorce.  I felt as though everyone and everything I needed was there for me... .but it was me that changed... .that opened up, that trusted, and that asked for help.

Push through the discomfort, the fear, the distrust, and take a chance with people... .everyone isn't like your mother and those surrounding her (her minions  ). Be brave.  Your mom's behavior... .basically pulling the rug out from under you... .was horrible 

We aren't all compatible with everyone, we aren't going to like everyone, I don't like phony baloney... .shmoozy people either (I think that's why I'm always hanging around here  ) I can be polite and courteous but shmoozy people aren't going to be my close friends.  It's okay to not like people, just as it's okay to like others.

It's also okay to be sad that your friend/nurse won't be visiting.     And just because she's your nurse doesn't mean that she can't like you or enjoy your company.  She can be both doing her job and enjoying your company.

Panda39

[Libra]

Harri,

Yes, I know this internal turmoil.

I went out for a sushi dinner with 2 other mums last Monday. I ‘accidentally’ invited myself along in an impulsive/positive moment when the 3 of us were talking about the children. The whole preceding week, I had to fight the urge to text them that I wouldn’t be able to make it, because I was in such a doubt that they would actually want me for company. My stubborn streak helped me to hang on in there and I made it till Monday. They picked me up (whilst I was anticipating them cancelling on me), and I had a lovely, relaxing evening. But still that little voice inside my head is nagging me: “I shouldn’t have invited myself along, they would have had a better time without me, they were only being polite taking me along, don’t expect any more of this … “

All of this just to say: Yes, it is familiar. And I am sorry you are hurting so much.  

May I try to comment on the current facts?

I think of one in particular as a friend... .but wait... .she is my nurse and I only see her because it is her job.

You do not have this with every nurse, nor will she enjoy every company as much as yours, work or no work. You have a connection.

***And I am dumb enough to believe that people actually enjoys my company.***  That right there is the problem.  Being so happy, and feeling so accepted and even liked and finding out it is a manipulation or just them doing what they have to do anyway.

Your nursing visits may end soon. You will miss the bond you shared with her. Circumstances brought you together, and circumstances might make you drift apart again, but what you experienced in between is still meaningful. The connection you share is real. Please accept that, and allow yourself to be sad that you will not be seeing your nurse/friend anymore.

You are hurting, but you did nothing stupid or wrong. Please don’t be too hard on yourself. 

Libra.

[Pilpel]

“I shouldn’t have invited myself along, they would have had a better time without me, they were only being polite taking me along, don’t expect any more of this … “

I do this negative inner voice thing all the time! 

One thing that comes to mind on this topic: In conversations that I've had with some old classmates over the years, I discovered that many of them felt similar insecurities and a sense of feeling left out in our young school years.  These were people that I thought were fun and interesting and more confident than me.  If I could go back in time, I would have tried to throw my own party --or game night, since I wasn't into breaking underage drinking laws.  Anyhow, even though I get frustrated when I feel like people aren't reciprocating when I reach out in friendship.  At the same time, I have to remind myself that there are other people who have those same feelings of feeling left out, feeling uninteresting, who feel like people aren't interested in them.  When I'm feeling down like that I have to remind myself that so many other people feel the same way, and I want to be the person who makes other people feel as accepted and included as I want to feel. 

[zachira]

Harri,
This sounds all about the pain of learning to trust and be vulnerable. Going out there and forming intimate healthy relationships involves facing our deepest fears about being treated like we were by our BPD mom, who was supposed to love her child unconditionally. With time, we learn that getting hurt is part of finding out who we can trust and who we can't. The safe people are the ones we can repair the hurt feelings with when there is a disagreement.

[Pina colada]

Oh Harri, I am so sorry you feel this way.  Of course you are likable and deserve friendship and kindness.  I also think if the nurse was just being nice because she is being paid, you would sense she is forcing her behavior.  One thing I learned is this... ."You can only receive the amount of love from others that you have for yourself."  I had to read this and read it again.  It is from Melanie Tonia Evans.  I am also in serious therapy so I have been able to heal from childhood abuse, teasing, taunting, threatening, name calling, just plain bullying behavior along with other childhood issues.  I had to start healing within to get where I am now and there is a lot of good information on the web as well as books.  I wish you all the best Harri.  I feel if we lived near we would be friends!

[Kwamina]

Hi Harri

Well you know about Parrot Vision and here's another one for you, Parrot Memory! Here's a blast from the past for you:

Hi Harri


This is one way of looking at what you've been doing here. Another way of looking at your presence here has been presented by HappyChappy and I agree with him:

You come across as a lovely, thoughtful, intelligent lady

You are a good person Harri  

I too like HappyChappy and daughterandmom would like to emphasize the goodness inside of you and urge you to try and treat yourself with the same love and compassion that you have shown to so many other members here. You are well loved and respected here Harri  

You truely are loved and respected on this board.    

 

The Board Parrot

[Turkish]

I think you're not unalright as well Harri 

[Fie]

Hi Harribold  

I recognize a lot of what you are saying. Although I have become more confident over the years, my old self is still there, emerging from time to time ... .wondering if I'm good enough, wondering if people like me.

I understand what you are saying about your nurses. It could have come from me  :-)  Yet, when someone else is saying it, I can see it for what it is. They are your nurses and they are paid to care for your physical needs. The friendship you have developed with them is something else.
When my therapist discharged me she said something really sweet to/about me, and she wanted to hug me goodbye.  We had a client-therapist relation, so I can and should not see her anymore as a friend. If she hadn't been my therapist and we'd met elsewhere, we might have become friends.

I also understand what you are saying about manipulation. I also cringe when people do it, and it immediately shakes my believe in people, even in humanity.  I had a talk about that with my (ex) therapist. She said that to some point, we all manipulate. She made a remark about a dress I was wearing that day, stating that we could even go that far as saying I was manipulative choosing to wear such a lovely dress, because the real reason I wore it could be that I wanted people to like me, wearing a nice dress. According to her, the real manipulation is when it's done with the intent of harming others.

That gave me some food for thought ... .since then I am taking it more easy with my aversion for manipulation. I realize I should not judge people too quickly about it.


 

[Harri]

Hi.  Thank you everyone for your responses.  They have helped center me and you have all given me a lot to think about.  I am sorry to hear some of you struggle with the same issue but I can see how it makes sense given the childhood issues.  yeah, trust is hard.

Reading the responses I realized that when I feel strong and confident, I am able to just go with it.  Obvious right?  I don't allow myself to get close or allow others to get close to me when I am not feeling strong.  So yeah, I need to work on feeling better about me and consciously working on building trust.

Another aspect though, and this is that part i wasn't seeing when i started the thread, is that I can be open (when I am feeling strong) and allow people to get closer.  It reaches a point though where I hit the brakes.  Just like a pwBPD, I really do the push/pull thing.  Well, not so much the pull... .but definitely the push part.  I get close, I get comfortable, actually think of the person as a friend, even joke and will call them a friend out loud... .and then the unease hits.  The slow growing panic and anxiety that builds over time and creeps up on me. 

I get to a point where I realize how important someone is to me and it is like a switch flips (sound familiar?  Can anyone say BPD?) I begin to withdraw ever so slightly.  I get a little quieter, my smile dims, my heart closes a little.  I don't rage or project on the person but I do it to myself.  all the self doubt I talked about in my first post.  It takes a lot of time for me to open up so when I do and then i reach this critical point of 'yes, they are my friend, I trust them and enjoy their company and believe they like me' the anxiety creeps in.  And then the cycle begins.  I take things too personally and I lose a little piece of me.  I don't say anything though, I just take it as "This is the way things work in Harri's life you are used to it, it is not new, so just suck it up.  The quicker you get this done, the less it will hurt."

Oh woe is me   

Delayed inner critic? 

[Turkish]

Fear of loss perhaps?

[Harri]

Yes, very much a fear of loss.  I know what feeling alone is like and I can handle it.  I like being alone... .but a part of me wants people in my life.  Not just anyone will do though.   and then I get used to having someone I can chat with or call, etc.  It makes me feel 'normal' which is something I have never thought possible.  I feel happy, not just because I really enjoy someones company but because I can do something normal and healthy people do.

[Learning2Thrive]

  Harri,

I get to a point where I realize how important someone is to me and it is like a switch flips (sound familiar?  Can anyone say BPD?) I begin to withdraw ever so slightly.  I get a little quieter, my smile dims, my heart closes a little.  I don't rage or project on the person but I do it to myself.  all the self doubt I talked about in my first post.  It takes a lot of time for me to open up so when I do and then i reach this critical point of 'yes, they are my friend, I trust them and enjoy their company and believe they like me' the anxiety creeps in.  And then the cycle begins.  I take things too personally and I lose a little piece of me.  I don't say anything though, I just take it as "This is the way things work in Harri's life you are used to it, it is not new, so just suck it up.  The quicker you get this done, the less it will hurt.

Harri, I experience something very similar.

I think yes Turkish hit it... .it’s all about fear of loss. And I dunno, maybe about feeling safe in the friendship.

 Wools made a beautiful and really an excellent post on what makes a person safe:

Quote from: Woolspinner2000 on Yesterday at 06:52:26 PM
Being a safe person means I can finally begin to let my guard down around you.

Trusting you (this safe one) comes slowly, the deep trust of relaxing with who I am, and not being afraid that you will abandon me or give up on me, no matter how unsure or afraid I become.

 It also means hearing me and listening, loving me for who I am.

Given what so many of us have gone through, it’s no wonder we have difficulties trusting and feeling safe. Maybe it’s easier to pull back from the relationship while it’s on a high note so we can keep it in our idealized stack of “at least they didn’t abandon me” accomplishments?

Do you think this may also tie in with your anger toward your mother? Does it make you angry that she did all this to you, then she left you to suffer through life without the ability to have genuine friends that are safe? I feel that way sometimes. More than I’d like to admit.

But I feel a breakthrough coming for both of us. We deserve safe people, genuine friends in our lives. 

  L2T

[Gemsforeyes]

Dear Harri-
There are many different ways to make connections with people, and one of those ways is through work.  There is a good likelihood that the nurses caring for you, with whom you feel a friendship has been formed, may feel the same.  Why wouldn’t they?  Better yet, why shouldn’t they?

While working in an office for years, when certain clients came in I was so happy to see them.  I helped launch their businesses and we grew close, became friends.  I was paid to be their “lead”.  I have not worked in that office since 2008  (met many of them dating back to 1994), and the ones I considered friends then, I still do.

It is important to trust what YOU contribute to their lives, which is likely a lot more than you think.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes