Gottman Workshop a good idea?

[Woodchuck]

Please move this if this is not the best location.  I get the Gottman Marriage Minute emails every week.  My T told me about them several months ago.  One of the recent ones talked about their workshops.  My W and I went to 'A Weekend to Remember' marriage retreat several years ago.  Things were close to how they are now.  My question is, would investing in the Gottman Workshop likely be helpful with a spouse that possibly suffers from BPD?  I believe that there would probably be short term benefits but I am looking more long term.  There are a few available seminars in the next few months that are relatively close to us.  I am more than willing to invest in anything that will make a real difference but don't want to build up false hopes with a temp fix.  These issues have been going on for the better part of 18 years and something needs to really change in order for us to survive.  I am working on me and improving the things that I can.  I think it is going to take more than that for the relationship to last much longer though.

WC

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[pearlsw]

Hi Woodchuck,

I hear ya! I just got back from a meeting with a counselor... .my SO wants to do anything to save things... .I'm not sure at this point given his behavior lately. Sigh.

I am not sure Gottman would work for you... .I forget, is there abuse in your relationship? How bad is her dysregulating? I like Gottman's work though. I read some of his stuff ages ago.

You are such a sweetheart though for wanting to do all you can! I wish she could see that in you! Awww! I almost want to cry!

I think anything that helps you, helps the relationship. At this moment I would not want to do marriage counseling because my SO dysregulates so much I can't... .it is hard to imagine him being able to handle a counseling session. He actually talked to the same counselor for one full hour after I did, and I feel like I am sitting on pins and needles to see if he comes home and flips out on me tonight.

So, I would never want to discourage anyone who wants to improve things! Never. Would she want to do it too? Is she the kind of person who cancels things? If so, is it refundable?

Does she do counseling now? Does she know about DBT?

wishing you the best in life, pearl.

[Woodchuck]

Hi Woodchuck,

I hear ya! I just got back from a meeting with a counselor... .my SO wants to do anything to save things... .I'm not sure at this point given his behavior lately. Sigh.

Pearl-
Good morning!  My W has stated in the past few months that the only thing she thinks may help is an 'expensive workshop'.  I am also aware that she is listening to a podcast about the Four Horsemen.  This tells me that she at least wants to do something.  I just don't know that anything is really there due to her increasingly hostile and distant behavior. 

I am not sure Gottman would work for you... .I forget, is there abuse in your relationship? How bad is her dysregulating? I like Gottman's work though. I read some of his stuff ages ago.

I am not certain that it would work either and I don't want to just throw money at something.  I know that it would not be a complete waste as I am sure that we would both learn something but the question in my mind is would the juice really be worth the squeeze.  There is no physical abuse, if that is what you are referring to.  I am sure you are aware from all of my other ramblings of things that could be considered emotional abuse.  Her dysregulating seems to be escalating rather quickly over the last several months and I do not have a solid reason as to why. 
I know that a lot of the Gottman stuff is used here and that is why I thought I would ask. 

You are such a sweetheart though for wanting to do all you can! I wish could see that in you! Awww! I almost want to cry!

Thank you, I appreciate that.  I do try.  I know I am not perfect but I do try to do my best and don't give up easy on anything.

I think anything that helps you, helps the relationship. At this moment I would not want to marriage counseling because my SO dysregulates so much I can't... .it is hard to imagine him being able to handle a counseling session. He actually talked to the same counselor for one full hour after I did, and I feel like I am sitting on pins and needles to see if he comes home and flips out on me tonight.


So, I would never want to discourage anyone who wants to improve things! Never. Would she want to do it too? Is the kind of person who cancels things? If so, is it refundable?

Does she do counseling now? Does she know about DBT?

wishing you the best in life, pearl.

Your comments are exactly in line with how I feel about setting up a seminar or even talking to her about it.  I do not think that MC would be beneficial at all at this point.  I think that individual counseling would be great.  I know I have benefited quite a bit from going myself and I think that would be the best way for her to go as well, at least for the time being.  I think we both need to work on ourselves and as we do, that our relationship should/could begin to heal.

As I said, she brought up going to what she termed as an 'expensive marriage seminar' a few months ago.  There was really not much more said about it.  As far as I know, she is not in any counseling but she would not tell me if she was.

She does have a history of counseling things.  She wanted to go with me to talk to my dr about some health concerns.  She disagreed with the dr's diagnosis and treatment plan.  She backed out the day of the appointment.  She did basically the same thing with my T.  She told me that she wanted to talk to my T about the PD concerns she had regarding me but as of a few days ago, she no longer wants to go.  I have not looked into whether it is refundable or not. 

Thank you for all the encouragement!  It really means a lot.  You and many others here have really had an impact in helping me look at myself and grow.

WC

[zachira]

Does your wife behave better when other people who are not family members are around? She might behave for a Gottman workshop and maybe learn something, though can't say that the changes would last past the workshop.

[Woodchuck]

Does your wife behave better when other people who are not family members are around? She might behave for a Gottman workshop and maybe learn something, though can't say that the changes would last past the workshop.

Zachira-
Yes, she is very good at wearing a mask around others and this is my fear.  All of the different things we have tried over the years that seemed to have made an impact ended up not being lasting.  We need a solid stepping stone.  I know there is no magic pill that is going to make things better but we need something solid that can be built on.  I am very apprehensive about continuing to try different things because of all the past disappointment with the end result and quite frankly, I am tired of telling our 'story' over and over and over and over with no real benefit in the end.  It is exhausting.  I do realize as well that different things affect people differently.  With all the Gottman material/references here, I was really a bit curious if anyone here had realized any success by attending a Gottman seminar.

WC

[zachira]

Maybe you can get you wife to do some bottom up therapy. Bottom up therapies work with feeling the sensations in the body and then connecting to feelings and thoughts which enable a person to make better decisions. Most therapy is top down going through the reasoning process first, and it is now well know that insight alone done not lead to much significant change. You might want to read: "The Body Knows the Score" which describes bottom up therapies and is sold on Amazon.

[Woodchuck]

Maybe you can get you wife to do some bottom up therapy. Bottom up therapies work with feeling the sensations in the body and then connecting to feelings and thoughts which enable a person to make better decisions. Most therapy is top down going through the reasoning process first, and it is now well know that insight alone done not lead to much significant change. You might want to read: "The Body Knows the Score" which describes bottom up therapies and is sold on Amazon.

I wish that was possible but she is set in her idea that I am the problem and I need to change in order for things to work.  All I can really do at this point is focus on me and what I can improve.  If she ever becomes receptive, it may be an option but at this point she has her mind made up that it is 100% me and then scoffs at me for 'saying the words my T tells me to say'.  I actually find that part a bit humorous.  She sees me changing and not engaging in JADE and makes fun of me.  Oh well, I will not let it get me worked up or derail me.  It is for me, not for her.

WC

[zachira]

So sad and frustrating your wife is not willing to take a look at her part in the problems in your relationship. You might want to learn about motivational interviewing. Motivational interviewing meets the person where he/she is at in terms of motivation to change, including no motivation whatsoever. It's interventions have been viewed as the most effective evidence based and effective ways to motivate people with addictions for more than twenty years, and motivational interviewing is now used in all kinds of counseling and therapy settings, and can easily be learned by anybody. There are books on motivational interviewing on amazon, and by googling motivational interviewing you can learn quite a lot about the philosophy and techniques.

[Woodchuck]

UPDATE

I asked my T about her thoughts on the Gottman workshop and she said she thought it would be great and highly recommended it.  With feedback from the members here and my T, I presented the idea to my W.  She said she was interested in going as long as it did not interfere with her work schedule.  I found one that was on a weekend and sent her the info.  She stated that she was willing to pay half.  I told her that was great and asked her how she wanted to go about registering.  I gave her two options.  Either I register and she write me a check at the time of registering or vice versa.  I explained that I did not want to be solely responsible for a nonrefundable $700 investment.  When I presented these two options, she claimed that she believed that we had already gone to a Gottman workshop several years ago and it was a waste of time and she had thrown the material away.  I recall it being a different seminar but told her I could be wrong.  She went on to tell me that I should start looking at an affair recovery program.  I told her that I was open to her suggestions, that I believed that the root issues were much deeper than my affair but if she found a program that would be able to address the root issues, I was all for it.  That was met with silence and I doubt that it will go anywhere.  I do not intend to look into any affair specific programs for the simple fact that the issues are much deeper than the affair but she wants to tie all our issues to that regardless of the fact that there were major issues for years prior to my affair.

WC

[Radcliff]

I'm sorry the Gottman seminar didn't pan out.  It would have been a healthy thing to do, though I would agree that without other changes it wouldn't likely move the needle.  pearl asked you about DBT.  Here is some more info... .

DBT therapy is the way to go, and if it helps your wife to feel more comfortable, can be considered "skills development" rather than "therapy."  This page discusses Treatment of Borderline Personality Disorder and includes a 45-minute video that introduces BPD and talks about how effective treatment can be.

DBT was developed by Marsha Linehan, a BPD clinician, specifically for BPD.  You can learn more at the Behavioral Tech Web site.  That Web page also has a link to help you find a DBT therapist.  My wife is doing DBT now, and I've been impressed.  "Dialectical" means that it combines acceptance of the person as they are now with the opposite concept of the need for change.  This acceptance is crucial for making the pwBPD feel safe, and my wife is quite enthusiastic about the program despite 30 years of hard skepticism about therapy and insisting for years that all the relationship problems were my fault.  DBT has four main focus areas:  Mindfulness, emotional regulation, distress tolerance, and interpersonal effectiveness.  They target the problems that are making the pwBPD miserable and that are hard on us "nons."

You might also want to look at this article, An Overview of Dialectical Behaviour Therapy in the Treatment of Borderline Personality Disorder.  It’s pretty dense, but worthwhile, and the comments by members at the end are also good.

By discussing treatment, I don't mean to detract from the primary focus on learning coping skills and ways to modify your own behavior, since that's the only thing you can control, but as a husband and father I know that effective treatment is a valid goal for your family -- it's worth looking for opportunities.

OK, my apologies, I'm going to throw even more stuff at you, but I think it's worthwhile to put it all in one place, and I don't want to forget to give it to you later.

Figuring out how to encourage our pwBPD to consider DBT can be a steep challenge.  I think you would find it valuable to look at this page on how to get a borderline into therapy.  There's a video at the end by a clinical researcher who figured out how best to approach the challenge of getting someone to get past unawareness of a mental illness and into therapy.  The video is long -- an hour and forty minutes -- and the example he uses is about schizophrenia, but I was patient and watched the whole thing, and am glad I did.  He drops a nugget 37 minutes in, and finally gets down to business at about 1:19.  It's worth watching, but you probably also want to read his book, IAm Not Sick, I Don’t Need Help:  How to Help Someone With Mental Illness Accept Treatment.  In the video, he says that one of two things needs to happen to make it likely for someone to stay in treatment:  1. Awareness that they have a mental illness (usually not going to happen), and 2. A relationship with someone who listens without judgement and thinks they'll benefit from treatment.  He founded the LEAP Institute to train people in these techniques (www.leapinstitute.org).  LEAP stands for Listen, Empathize, Agree, and Partner.

WW