Unpacking the emotional abuse "box"

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

A discussion started by JNChell about the role of labels got me thinking about what it means to put the label of abuse on what I experienced with dBPDxh. 
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=328611.0

I feel like I have packed away the abusive aspects of my relationship with dBPDxh.  I went through a period of time when I started to identify them as such, and that gave me the strength to not go back to the relationship without clear evidence of change from him, but I can't say I really examined the abuse aspect or how it impacted me.  Now that our divorce is final I kind of want to leave everything in the box and move on, but I keep bumping into that box. 

My T is indicating that acknowledging the abuse I experienced and its impact on me is something I would benefit from and I know that she will walk the journey with me.  I think it would be valuable to have a specific discussion topic on the process of unpacking the "box" that we put those abuse experiences in.  I know some of you have already walked this road and I could really use some of your insight/guidance/cheerleading.  I think there are probably others who are, like me, ready to embark on the journey of unpacking that box.  Wanna be box buddies?

So the first questions I have are "Where do you start with something like this?"  and "What are some tools that will help with the process?"

BeagleGirl


So 

[BeagleGirl]

A discussion started by JNChell about the role of labels got me thinking about what it means to put the label of abuse on what I experienced with dBPDxh. 
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=328611.0

I feel like I have packed away the abusive aspects of my relationship with dBPDxh.  I went through a period of time when I started to identify them as such, and that gave me the strength to not go back to the relationship without clear evidence of change from him, but I can't say I really examined the abuse aspect or how it impacted me.  Now that our divorce is final I kind of want to leave everything in the box and move on, but I keep bumping into that box. 

My T is indicating that acknowledging the abuse I experienced and its impact on me is something I would benefit from and I know that she will walk the journey with me.  I think it would be valuable to have a specific discussion topic on the process of unpacking the "box" that we put those abuse experiences in.  I know some of you have already walked this road and I could really use some of your insight/guidance/cheerleading.  I think there are probably others who are, like me, ready to embark on the journey of unpacking that box.  Wanna be box buddies?

So the first questions I have are "Where do you start with something like this?"  and "What are some tools that will help with the process?"

BeagleGirl


So 

[Insom]

So the first questions I have are "Where do you start with something like this?"

Indeed, you have started, BeagleGirl! 

"What are some tools that will help with the process?"

Hmm . . . what feels most tough or scary to you about this?  What do you mean by help?  What do mean by tools?

[steelwork]

BG, I’m here with my box, listening. Ex identified his behavior as abusive during the r/s. I’m still struggling to know what it was.

[Turkish]

My T invalidated me when I mentioned that I thought my ex was abusive.  I think in his mind,  given what he had seen over his 30 year career,  unless I was being beaten,  I wasn't abused. That I felt so helpless that I wanted to die (not quite SI) wasn't good enough I guess,  and that was me. 

I know many of you here were and I don't mean to minimize that in the least.

[LightAfterTunnel]

Hi BeagleGirl,

I’m willing to listen and talk with you while holding my box in hand and ready.

My T has been very clear to me over the last years at defining what abuse my dBPDw was subjecting me to. I think he was purposely forceful with me because I had the tendency to pack these aspects away as you say and he wanted me to recognize her actions for what they were... .abuse.

Now, similar to you, I’ve seen her actions for what they were but I find myself often wondering about her abuse along another tangent. Specifically, I have difficulty talking openly about her abuse because I find many of her actions/ways to be obfuscated by cultural, historical, and social norms. By this I mean that what I see as abuse might not be considered out of the norm for others of different backgrounds.

Everytime I have attempted to open up my pandora’s box of abuse I find myself conflicted as to how my experiential feelings are conditioned by my upbringing and I find myself having difficulty in saying “yes this is blatant abuse”. Instead I have reached the point in which I say “I don’t care if this abuse or not, I do not want to be treated this way.”

So where do we start? I don’t know... .why don’t you throw an example out there? I’m here.

LAT

[Mustbeabetterway]

Hi BeagleGirl,  thanks for starting this topic.  Unpacking the box is exactly what I am working on. 

Trusting myself to be honest about what really happened in my relationship with uBPDh is what I am working on.  Just yesterday, I met with my therapist and this was the main thing we worked on - unraveling the reasons I am not able yet to trust my reasons for staying out of my marriage. 

I know why I left, but why I haven't gone back is something I struggle with and have to keep working on.

I look forward to continuing this discussion.   

Mustbeabetterway

[BeagleGirl]

Last night I started looking at books on healing from emotional abuse.  I started going back through "Why Does He Do That?" to try to trigger memories of ways dBPDxh used abusive tactics. 

Right now I'm dealing with the feelings/thoughts "He really wasn't that bad.  He never hit me.  He didn't isolate me from friends and family.  He never screamed at me the way his mother screamed at his dad and sister."  and "He can't have been doing it intentionally.  He's not a bad person. He's just hurt and that's how he deals with the hurt."

I hold those feelings/thoughts up against what I'm thinking about myself.  "I didn't give him enough chances.  I didn't try hard/long enough to use the tools.  I hid his secrets in the first 4 rounds of marriage counseling, so they couldn't be addressed.  I started doing abusive things (mocking, belittling, name calling) towards the end of our marriage.  I left the marriage.  I valued my happiness above his and that of our children."

This morning I feel like I'm staring at the top layer in the box and all I want to do is close it and shove it as far away as I can, but it's so very heavy and I don't think I can move it until it's unpacked.

I also had a bit of an aha moment. I've always been overweight, with two notable exceptions.  In 2004 I reached my ideal weight.  I need to look a bit more closely at what was different about that year in my marriage, but I remember my focus being my role as a mother and my work.  I remember being happy and fulfilled that year.  We ended up moving across country as I pursued a new career and I remember the weight creeping back up in the first year, but now I am remembering events with dBPDxh and realizing that my weight gain tracks with those times.  In 2013 there was a triggering event that led me to give up on my marriage.  I largely detached myself from dBPDxh without leaving the marriage.  My weight dropped as I focused on work and training for my first two half marathons and then fell in love with my affair partner.  My weight gain after that correlates to the point in time where I started realizing that returning to my marriage meant returning to the same patterns. 

In the past 6 months I have felt pretty detached from dBPDxh and I have lost over 30 lbs.  I haven't really needed to work that hard at it this time around.  I'm enjoying the food I eat and the exercise I do, so I just find myself being a bit more mindful.  The thing is, since I started really staring at this box and thinking about dealing with the memories of dBPDxh, I've been picking up the mindless eating again.  The ice cream that sat in my freezer for a month disappeared in a week and last night I polished off chips that were stale and not all that satisfying.  And I'm feeling the shame of it.  And I'm realizing that this is a pattern; that even the thought of dealing with memories of dBPDxh is resulting in the drive to fill my stomach and numb the feelings.  It may also be a way to remind myself that I'm the failure.  I can't fix my marriage and I can't control my weight.  Shame feels more comfortable than blame.  I'd rather feel like a failure than a victim. 

Okay.  I had no idea that was in the box.   

BG

[BeagleGirl]

My T invalidated me when I mentioned that I thought my ex was abusive.  

Turkish,
I'm so sad to hear that you weren't heard.  It's hard enough when a friend or relative discounts your experience, but when a professional does so it's got to make you question yourself that much more.

FWIW, I feel like I'm finding myself asking "Does this belong in this box?"  On the one hand I want someone to tell me "Yes.  That was abuse.  You are not crazy or weak for having been hurt by that." and on the other I want to be able to say "I experienced this as abuse.  It may not qualify as abuse to some and definitely wasn't as extreme as others have experienced, but it still wounded me."

It takes a lot of pain to get someone to the point of not wanting to live.  I know.  I've been there.  Would you mind sharing what you experienced that was invalidated? 

BG

[BeagleGirl]

BG, I’m here with my box, listening. Ex identified his behavior as abusive during the r/s. I’m still struggling to know what it was.

Steelwork,
Are you struggling with identifying the behaviors or classifying them as abusive?

BG

[BeagleGirl]

Now, similar to you, I’ve seen her actions for what they were but I find myself often wondering about her abuse along another tangent.

I have reached the point in which I say “I don’t care if this abuse or not, I do not want to be treated this way.”

LightAfterTunnel,
I sometimes wonder if I go down those tangents as a way of avoiding the pain of facing it head on.  I am thinking that sometimes I NEED the more circuitous route either because head on would be too much to handle at once and sometimes I realize that those tangents have their own important lessons.

I think I reached a similar spot with not caring about the label "abuse", but when I asked my T this week if there was value in that label she said "yes".  I think the mentality of "I don't want to be treated this way" was key to getting me to step away from the relationship I had with dBPDxh and not go back unless the terms changed.  As I read about healing from emotional abuse, that's an early stage.  I'm reading that for further healing I need to spend more time recognizing and grieving the abuse I experienced and I think that, at least for a time, naming what I experienced as "abuse" is important.

I think we'll probably get into some stories/examples as we start unpacking, do you have any you are working through right now?

BG

[BeagleGirl]

I know why I left, but why I haven't gone back is something I struggle with and have to keep working on.

Mustbe,
I can definitely relate.  The thing that I clung to (like a life preserver) through the daily decision to not go back and then to take the step of agreeing to end the marriage was the idea that if I went back before I had clear evidence of change then I was taking away the chance of that change ever occurring. 

At the time I was very focused on the change I wanted to see in dBPDxh but as I look back I see that I was also looking at my response to him and wondering if I could ever change that enough to have a chance at the marriage I wanted. I'm still dealing with feelings of guilt for not trying hard enough, not giving enough chances, etc.  I'm starting to think that's, to some extent, linked to the abuse patterns.  I think those feelings are normal even in non-abusive situations, but the degree to which I take responsibility for the end of my marriage seems to be significant to my T.

Do you think it would help to put into words the reasons you left and attempt to put into words the reasons you aren't going back?  Do you see change that you think indicates you could or should go back?

BG

[Wicker Man]

Right now I'm dealing with the feelings/thoughts "He really wasn't that bad"... ... .."He can't have been doing it intentionally.  He's not a bad person. He's just hurt and that's how he deals with the hurt."

I have come to look at Dream Come True as essentially two people -the one I fell head over heals in love with and the person who hates her.  Both of these people live inside of her.  She is not a 'bad' person, however I don't think I could ever convince her of it.  I completely agree with your sentiment 'He's just hurt and that's how he deals with the hurt'

Dream Come True acted almost like a wounded animal in that she could be incredibly dangerous when she emotionally cornered herself.  She wasn't hurtful to me out of evil, but in a desperate bid for self preservation -the threat came from within.  She had no Machiavellian plan for manipulation -she was a leaf blown in her maelstrom of emotional torment. This is an explanation for her behavior --not an excuse. 

"I didn't give him enough chances... ... ..I valued my happiness above his and that of our children." 

Valuing your happiness is a show of strength not weakness -staying in a destructive marriage is never healthy for children.  This is up to you to reconcile, but I caution against your statement 'choosing your happiness over that of your children'.  You were protecting their mother.

I'd rather feel like a failure than a victim. 

Can you choose neither failure or victim?  Is there a third more constructive possibility?

As to diet... .ugh!

It is incredibly difficult to diet when in emotional distress.  Since ending my relationship with Dream Come True I quickly gained 10 pounds.  It is coming off now, but it was easy to try to find succor in the comfort of food (and gin).  3 days ago I stopped drinking and have been journalling my eating habits.  Sometimes food journalling helps because I know I am too lazy to write something down and will thusly not snack... .  Laziness as a virtue?

I have found journaling (food and otherwise) invaluable.  Going back through my journal entries has helped me when I have invasive thoughts about Dream Come True.  Re-visiting my journal entries from when my terror of the final days of our relationship was fresh has been enlightening. 

Loving someone suffering from BPD, in my experience,  causes an enormous amount of cognitive dissonance.  There seems to have been a disconnect between how she spoke to me and how she acted.  I feel now both aspects of her were equally real.  She loved me deeply, however when she raged she hated me with equal passion.  In the dysregualtion of rage she could say remarkable things and then have no memory of it. 

I still grapple with is the sheer pity of it all.  She was verbally abusive to me, but I should imagine what I experienced was nothing compared to what she hears daily in her inner dialogue.  She never told me what the voices she heard told her -only that it was terrible. 




Wicker Man

[BeagleGirl]

"This is up to you to reconcile, but I caution against your statement 'choosing your happiness over that of your children'.  You were protecting their mother."

Wickerman,
Thank you for the statement above.  It brought some healing tears. 

I think that one of the patterns I am recognizing is that of devaluing my needs.  I can go back to messages I received from my FOO that left me feeling that I should put my desires and even needs aside if they conflicted with the desires/needs of others.  Eventually that became I must put them aside.  One of the patterns of abuse from dBPDxh was to threaten to leave or withdraw relationship (ST, neglect) if I asked him to meet my needs.  A plea to spend more time with me or help carry some of the burden of housework would be met with "I can't and if you keep asking then I'd rather leave you than try." 

I'm not sure how much of dBPDxh's abuse was born out of pain.  I do know that there were times when he really believed he couldn't give me what I was asking for and that was incredibly painful for him.  But there were also times when I believe he just didn't want to give what I asked because it would require that he put forth more effort than he wanted to expend and then the manipulation and abuse would come in.  I saw those times more and more.  I would watch him spend hours and hours on his hobbies and his willingness to drop everything to help others, but when I had a minor request he "couldn't".  The message I got was that I was not important enough and that meant there was something lacking in me. 

Sigh.  This is all feeling really heavy today.  It doesn't help that today is the day when dBPDxh will pick up all remaining items from my house.  I'm looking forward to having that done, but dreading the actual time when he's here in my home and S15 is watching those last links to the family we used to be be carted away.  It hurts.

BG

[Wicker Man]

One of the patterns of abuse from dBPDxh was to threaten to leave or withdraw relationship (ST, neglect) if I asked him to meet my needs.

This certainly matches my experience.  During her last rage event, which carried on for a week, I was preparing a house here in the US for sale and was having a tough time emotionally -my wife and I had completely renovated it ourselves.  When I asked Dream Come True if we could speak about something pleasant for a few moments she replied 'Being sad and weak won't get you anywhere'.  A few days later this was followed with her 2nd threat of a break up. 

After her first bid for a 'break up' I had told her you can say anything to me except threatening to end our relationship -I told her that will only happen one more time.  I further explained neither of us can be in this relationship with a gun to our head.  I can only presume if I had allowed the relationship to continue this pattern would have gotten far worse.  --ugh.

I believe he just didn't want to give what I asked because it would require that he put forth more effort than he wanted to expend... .

I was working 15-17 hours a day 7 days a week and Dream Come True couldn't always make it out to buy groceries... .1 block away.  It was (actually) fascinating looking back and realizing she almost never did anything I requested.  She could be sweet, but only if it was her idea and on her terms.

The message I got was that I was not important enough and that meant there was something lacking in me. 

As you pointed out this was a learned behavior from your childhood.  His lack of willingness or perhaps lack of ability to help you in your day to day life is in no way a reflection of your value as a human being, rather a reflection upon his ability, or perhaps the lack there of, to show love.  --Never let another person define you; self worth comes from within.  It can be recognized by another person, however never granted by them to you.

It doesn't help that today is the day when dBPDxh will pick up all remaining items from my house... .

I remember those moments vividly when I was preparing to leave. 

It is ok to be sad.  However, try not to beat yourself up -there is a difference.  Being sad over the end of a relationship is natural, but don't blame yourself and turn the sadness into self mortification.  See the sadness for what it is and then when the time is right let it go.  Honestly, I think it is important to allow ourselves to be sad within measure.

S15 is watching those last links to the family we used to be... .

Perhaps when the time is right talk with your son about today.  He may surprise you and have a different view of your divorce.  My parents very likely should have divorced and never did.  My mom spoke with me about it and I supported her as best I could. 

I guess what I am asking is instead of projecting your feelings onto him -talk with him about how he is feeling. 

I am sorry you are having a rough day.

Wicker Man

[Radcliff]

BG, I'd start off by writing.  The two things that come to mind are to sit down and do a dump of everything you remember that was abusive.  Another thing would be to gather scraps of memories as they occur to you over the next few weeks.  Take notes in your phone or on a notepad as you think of isolated memories of abuse.  Things will come to you when you are doing a certain activity, driving by a certain place, or in a certain place in your house.  Over time, you may have quite a collection.  For me, the forgetting allowed me to get by for a time, but forgetting worried me -- it feels better now to collect the memories for processing and healing.  I can't remember it all at once, it just comes to me one thought at a time and I write it down.

I agree that "I experienced it as abusive" is a helpful way to think.  But it is also good to be validated against commonly accepted definitions of abuse.  I found it particularly helpful to look at the Relationship Spectrum.

Thank you for posting this.

WW

[MeandThee29]

LightAfterTunnel,
I think we'll probably get into some stories/examples as we start unpacking, do you have any you are working through right now?

BG

It was some months back, but my counsellor encouraged me to work on forgiving myself for allowing what happened. I wrote a letter to myself doing that.

I also allowed myself to be angry at how I was treated. This is somewhat funny in a sad way. He had already moved many states away, and we moved out of the family house so it could go on the market. It was empty, waiting for closing at the time, so I had to go regularly and mow and check it. I loved that house and the memories there. So I would go and walk through the house and yell as I walked through each room, and then do my chores. Somehow yelling calmed me down and helped me let go of the house as well as what he did to me. I went one last time before the walk-through to leave the manuals and the keys, and then I haven't even driven by again. It's all over for me.

[LightAfterTunnel]

LightAfterTunnel,
I sometimes wonder if I go down those tangents as a way of avoiding the pain of facing it head on.  I am thinking that sometimes I NEED the more circuitous route either because head on would be too much to handle at once and sometimes I realize that those tangents have their own important lessons.

I think I reached a similar spot with not caring about the label "abuse", but when I asked my T this week if there was value in that label she said "yes".  I think the mentality of "I don't want to be treated this way" was key to getting me to step away from the relationship I had with dBPDxh and not go back unless the terms changed.  As I read about healing from emotional abuse, that's an early stage.  I'm reading that for further healing I need to spend more time recognizing and grieving the abuse I experienced and I think that, at least for a time, naming what I experienced as "abuse" is important.

I think we'll probably get into some stories/examples as we start unpacking, do you have any you are working through right now?

BG

Hi BeagleGirl,

Your reply made me think about whether I am tacitly circumventing the abuse... .and I think you’re right. After I read your reply yesterday I thought to myself that this isn’t hard to put together a list. And as I was doing some work on the house yesterday evening I started making a mental list. I woke up in the middle of the night and had a hard time falling back asleep... .I kept thinking about abuses that I put up with. I guess maybe I do need to write these down.

Unfortunately, my relationship was full of outward verbal and physical abuse on her part toward me. And unfortunately I definitely had maladaptive responses to the situation until I learned better. However, much of those abuses stopped when I put down firm boundaries with her.

Instead, I think the abuse that hurt the most and that I am not confronting, and it sounds like you had a similar experience with your ex, was her complete lack of respect for my persona, my wants, my needs. Almost an invalidation of my existence.

In fact, after our last couples therapy session, in which I talked about wanting a divorce and my dBPDw’s refusal to allow it, the T told me privately that my wife does not recognize my right as an individual to separate from her. She doesn’t see me as an individual.

Does something like this ring a bell for you?

I think Wentworth’s idea of writing down a list is a great idea of where to start. I know I am going to try.

LAT

[Caco Canepa]

Instead, I think the abuse that hurt the most and that I am not confronting, and it sounds like you had a similar experience with your ex, was her complete lack of respect for my persona, my wants, my needs. Almost an invalidation of my existence.

I'm here with my box and following. And this comment really resonates with me. More later. Starting therapy anew this afternoon for this express purpose.

Caco Canepa

[BeagleGirl]

I also allowed myself to be angry at how I was treated... .So I would go and walk through the house and yell as I walked through each room, and then do my chores.

This really stood out to me.  One quote from "Why Does He Do That?" that I resonated with me recently

"One of the basic human rights he takes away from you is the right to be angry with him". 

I'm starting to make the connection between that statement and what it takes to grieve abuse.  One of the steps in grief is anger.  But I'm not allowed to be angry.  So I can't progress in grieving abuse.  I hit the anger stage and that's not "allowed", so I drop back to denial.  Even though he's not here to tell me my anger is wrong, I have 20+ years of him in my head.

Yesterday as I was helping him move the last of his items out of my house I mentioned a funny story I shared with a friend.  He started chuckling and talking about the memory as if he had been there BUT HE WASN'T THERE.  He should have been there, but he was off doing his thing.  He only knew the story because I had relayed it to him and sent him pictures.  He argued that he was there and I just looked him in the eye and said "You weren't there".  It may not sound like much, but those three words summarized a large part of the hurt I experienced in our marriage.  He was not there.  It wasn't yelling, but boy did it feel good to say that to him and to myself.

BG

[LightAfterTunnel]

"One of the basic human rights he takes away from you is the right to be angry with him". 

I'm starting to make the connection between that statement and what it takes to grieve abuse.  One of the steps in grief is anger.  But I'm not allowed to be angry.

Hey BeagleGirl!

Great one!... .this is spot on as well for me.

When I was angry at a serious transgression on her part, and absolutely had the right to be angry, she wouldn’t take any responsibility and would walk away. It was always my problem. Me standing alone while the person responsible for the chaos, the destruction, the hurt feelings was just not there. It must be nice to be able to just check out... .It left me feeling horrible.

I can imagine that you still have him in your head after 20+ yrs of not having your anger validated. I’m sorry.

Initially, when you started this thread, you wrote that the intention behind this behavior mattered. Does it? I believe my dBPDw wouldn’t validate my anger because she honestly couldn’t handle it. Her recognition of my anger would be recognition of her wrongdoings, which is some sort of internal destruction of herself. In a sense she wasn’t at fault.

But does that matter? In the end it left me invalidated time after time until you can’t express yourself.

Is this abuse? I don’t know... .

LAT

[BeagleGirl]

Initially, when you started this thread, you wrote that the intention behind this behavior mattered. Does it?

Is this abuse? I don’t know...

LAT,
That is an excellent question!

I’m thinking that my feeling that the intentions of the abuser(?) matter is linked to the difficulty I have allowing myself to be angry. If he didn’t mean to hurt me the I have no right to be angry. I think that’s the message I heard from him over and over. He didn’t mean to hurt me so I couldn’t be angry and he didn’t need to take responsibility for hurting me.

This morning I tried something new. I took the hurt I uncovered yesterday about him not being there for me and our kids and I allowed myself to feel the hurt and injustice of it. It was wrong that he wasn’t there. It was right that I feel pain from that neglect. I don’t know that I felt much anger, but I felt the pain and wrongness of what I experienced.

And then I was able to understand that he wasn’t there because he was trying to fill the emptiness of himself with the approval of others. I then felt the anger and hurt around his need to go to others for what he needed. I wanted to be the one he looked to. I wanted to be enough to show him who he was and how amazing he was. But I wasn’t enough for him. That’s one of the core hurts - the message that I’m not enough.

I was able to shift from “I wasn’t enough for him.” to “I wasn’t enough for him.”  He had an emptiness that I was never meant to fill. He looked elsewhere to fill it and that resulted in neglect. He didn’t set out to hurt me. I think he knew (after years and years of me telling him) that I would be hurt by it and chose to do it anyway, but he probably also didn’t feel like he had a choice.

What I was able to hold onto was the idea that what I experienced was hurtful and wrong regardless of what the intentions were. My pain and anger are legitimate and nothing he could say would take away that legitimacy. And from that point of understanding I felt like I could release the pain and anger and forgive.

I think that’s another struggle I’ve had. It’s really hard to forgive a hurt that you can’t fully grasp. When you can’t say “That was wrong” then you can’t say “but I forgive you”. That’s why I REALLY hate the statement “I’m sorry if I did something that hurt you. If there’s any question about whether you have a right to be hurt or what the hurtful action was then what exactly are you forgiving?

BG

[mama-wolf]

Hi BG,

Thank you for the heads up and invitation to join this thread.  It's a great one that I will follow closely, even though I think my box is currently glued/nailed/welded/chained shut at the moment... .it's here and I'll figure out how to get at it eventually.  There's also plenty floating around that probably belongs in the box, but I haven't figured that part out yet, either.

So, so many of the things you have said in various posts on this thread are things I could have said myself... .

Right now I'm dealing with the feelings/thoughts "He really wasn't that bad.  He never hit me."

"He can't have been doing it intentionally.  He's not a bad person. He's just hurt and that's how he deals with the hurt."

"I didn't give him enough chances.  I didn't try hard/long enough to use the tools.

"I left the marriage.  I valued my happiness above his and that of our children."

I can't fix my marriage and I can't control my weight.  Shame feels more comfortable than blame.  I'd rather feel like a failure than a victim. 

I identify with ALL of these.  The only thing I can respond to right now is the notion of intent.  I read an article not too long ago (need to find it again) about how intent does not matter.  It gave a great analogy in the form of highlighting the fact that the difference between murder and manslaughter is intent... .but that doesn't really mean much to the victim.  But there's part of the problem, isn't it?  That v-word.  I am also struggling with accepting that part, even though I know it's not a reflection of who I am.  It's something that happened to me--to us.  And the reflection of who we are is what we do about it.

FWIW, I feel like I'm finding myself asking "Does this belong in this box?"  On the one hand I want someone to tell me "Yes.  That was abuse.  You are not crazy or weak for having been hurt by that." and on the other I want to be able to say "I experienced this as abuse.  It may not qualify as abuse to some and definitely wasn't as extreme as others have experienced, but it still wounded me."

From what I can tell, abuse is abuse.  It may be hard to recognize for many of the reasons already discussed here, including the question of intent.  I think the biggest variation between individuals comes in the experience of trauma.  What traumatizes one person will not necessarily traumatize the person right next to them experiencing the same thing.  So abuse may have a bigger impact on some than others, but it's still abuse.

The message I got was that I was not important enough and that meant there was something lacking in me. 

Instead, I think the abuse that hurt the most and that I am not confronting, and it sounds like you had a similar experience with your ex, was her complete lack of respect for my persona, my wants, my needs. Almost an invalidation of my existence.

This was the majority of my experience, since my uBPDstbxw never hit me and only rarely lashed out verbally.  It was the total, pervasive devaluation of self that I experienced.

So I still struggle to accept that I experienced abuse, and my box remains sealed until I can face prying it open with the help of my T and the Family here.  But I'm here!

mw

[MeandThee29]

This really stood out to me.  One quote from "Why Does He Do That?" that I resonated with me recently

"One of the basic human rights he takes away from you is the right to be angry with him". 

I'm starting to make the connection between that statement and what it takes to grieve abuse.  One of the steps in grief is anger.  But I'm not allowed to be angry.  So I can't progress in grieving abuse.  I hit the anger stage and that's not "allowed", so I drop back to denial.  Even though he's not here to tell me my anger is wrong, I have 20+ years of him in my head.

Yes, it's not bad to feel the outrage as long as you use it to heal. Mine completely ignores that I have reasons to not trust him. He says I'm being immature. Ah yes, another sign of abuse. In a healthy relationship, partners will respect that trust needs to be rebuilt when there is a major breakdown. We've been separated a year, and he wants to completely ignore that and start over like the past never happened.

I have "Why Does He Do That?" too. Very eye-opening.

[LightAfterTunnel]

This morning I tried something new. I took the hurt I uncovered yesterday about him not being there for me and our kids and I allowed myself to feel the hurt and injustice of it. It was wrong that he wasn’t there. It was right that I feel pain from that neglect. I don’t know that I felt much anger, but I felt the pain and wrongness of what I experienced.

... .

What I was able to hold onto was the idea that what I experienced was hurtful and wrong regardless of what the intentions were. My pain and anger are legitimate and nothing he could say would take away that legitimacy. And from that point of understanding I felt like I could release the pain and anger and forgive.

Hi BeagleGirl,

So I’ve come to view anger as a transitory feeling that really just serves as a “wake up“ call to the real feelings below. And when you’ve gotten below the wake up call usually you can see your real feelings lying there vulnerable and in need of recognition. Once you’ve given your true feelings the recognition they need then your ability to love and empathize can really shine.

It sounds to me like you have done exactly this.

To me it seems like you’re able to see the hurt he’s caused, you’ve accepted your anger and it’s passed , you’ve recognized the true core touched of not being enough, and you’re able to see the sadness in him. And you forgive.

Doesn’t that feel good? You’re an amazing person to be able to go through all that and still empathize and forgive. I mean really you should be proud of yourself.

However, your worry about what is an abuse and whether or not there’s intent makes me feel that you’re searching for some justification for your actions. Why isn’t the fact that you deserve more enough? That you deserve to be happy and that you aren’t when you’re with him.

You’ve done quite a lot... .YOU deserve to be happy. Maybe concentrating on yourself for a bit might help you with perspective as you go through your box?

LAT

[mama-wolf]

Looks like I missed this update when I was working on my recent post... .

I’m thinking that my feeling that the intentions of the abuser(?) matter is linked to the difficulty I have allowing myself to be angry. If he didn’t mean to hurt me the I have no right to be angry. I think that’s the message I heard from him over and over. He didn’t mean to hurt me so I couldn’t be angry and he didn’t need to take responsibility for hurting me.

Yes, I got similar responses/messages.  I don't mean to be impulsive, so you can't be angry with me for it.  I don't mean to cut you off, so you can get frustrated with me for doing it time and time again.  I don't mean to be needy, so you can't be exhausted by it.  I don't mean to disregard your needs, so you can't feel neglected.  I don't mean to upset you, so you can't be hurt.

My stbx perfected the art of playing the victim, and of avoiding responsibility for 1) the initial behavior and 2) making the necessary changes to improve the behavior.

What I was able to hold onto was the idea that what I experienced was hurtful and wrong regardless of what the intentions were. My pain and anger are legitimate and nothing he could say would take away that legitimacy. And from that point of understanding I felt like I could release the pain and anger and forgive.

BG, I'm really happy for you that you got to this place!

I think that’s another struggle I’ve had. It’s really hard to forgive a hurt that you can’t fully grasp.

Here's where I'm stuck.  And it goes beyond the question of emotional abuse and mistreatment by my stbx.  This even gets into the deeper abandonment issues that my T has hinted factor into my emotional avoidance.  I am struggling to identify the pain in the first place.  What is it that really has hurt me so much.  I don't like admitting that I got hurt at all--ever.  Nothing should be able to hurt me, right? (wrong)

I think part of that is the fact that I have already intellectualized the hell out of it all over the years, and the other part is that I just don't want to identify it.  I don't want to recognize it, or feel all the feelings associated with it.  My T pointed this out... .the understandable fear that the feelings will just be too much and I'll fall apart.

I'm really glad for you that you have identified this and processed some of the emotions.  As LAT indicated (and my T also confirmed), anger is a secondary emotion.  It's a good signal to us that something needs attention, but the key is to address what's underneath as you have done.  Thank you for sharing your journey!

mw

[BeagleGirl]

I don't want to recognize it, or feel all the feelings associated with it.  My T pointed this out... .the understandable fear that the feelings will just be too much and I'll fall apart.

MW,
I heard an awesome story today that may help with that fear.  It was about a woman who, like you, was afraid that if she started uncovering the pain it would become a pit that she would never be able to climb out of.  A dear friend asked her "What if that pit is not really a pit, but the entrance to a tunnel to safety?" 

I have to say that I'm going through more pain right now than I have since I left dBPDxh.  It's not fun.  But on days like today I know that it's worth it.  I feel the chains falling off and the wounds healing.  I know that I am uncovering the beautiful spark at the core of who I am.  I don't say this to imply that you should dive into that box.  It is time for me to do this.  I don't know when your time will come, but I think that when it does, you'll find that you've been gathering the tools you'll need without really even knowing it.

BG

[BeagleGirl]

You’ve done quite a lot... .YOU deserve to be happy. Maybe concentrating on yourself for a bit might help you with perspective as you go through your box?

LAT,
I didn't share all of what I experienced this morning, but given your question above I think I should.

As I thought about the emptiness that dBPDxh's neglect came out of I went to my core belief that the only "person" who can tell us who we are in a meaningful way is God.  That got me asking what I am doing to fill my own emptiness and led me to ask God "Who am I?"

When I want to really hear from God I picture myself climbing into His lap.  Often I see myself laying my head on His chest and listening to His heart beat.  Today I had a very vivid picture of Him showing me the strength He built into me. 

You know how you lay a baby on your lap and hold its feet in your hands and feel the push and pull of his legs?  I felt like God was doing that with me and saying "Look at these strong legs.  I made you to walk and not grow weary, to run and not faint."  And with my shoulders "Look at these strong shoulders that can carry such burdens yet not stoop.  I made you to stand tall and bend but not break".  And with my heart "Look at this strong heart.  I made you to love freely no matter how much it hurt.  I gave you an extra big heart not so you would have a larger vessel of love to empty out for others, but so that you could receive all the love I want to bestow on you."  And with my smile... .(For this one I need you to know that my given name means "Happy, joyful one".)

For my smile He said "Look at that beautiful smile.  I made you "Happy, joyful one".  I made you to beam with joy so brightly that it makes the whole world around you sparkle and bring joy to those around you.  You are "Happy, joyful one"."

I'm spending today resting in that image of who I am. 

BG

[MeandThee29]

For my smile He said "Look at that beautiful smile.  I made you "Happy, joyful one".  I made you to beam with joy so brightly that it makes the whole world around you sparkle and bring joy to those around you.  You are "Happy, joyful one"."

I'm spending today resting in that image of who I am. 

BG

Tuesday nights I go to a faith-based 12-step group. The lady that gave the talk this week used this phrase throughout: "Christ in me; I am enough." She is the wife of a former church leader and hid a problem with alcohol for over a decade in addition to codependency, and she said that phrase helped her immensely in recovering. Even failing and falling, He loves us as we are and accepts us. He sees potential in us when no one else does.

[Radcliff]

Instead, I think the abuse that hurt the most and that I am not confronting, and it sounds like you had a similar experience with your ex, was her complete lack of respect for my persona, my wants, my needs. Almost an invalidation of my existence... .

my wife does not recognize my right as an individual to separate from her. She doesn’t see me as an individual.

Does something like this ring a bell for you?

Absolutely.  This is a fundamental description of my experience in my marriage.

This really stood out to me.  One quote from "Why Does He Do That?" that I resonated with me recently

"One of the basic human rights he takes away from you is the right to be angry with him". 

Wow.  I read the book, but don't remember that quote.  Switch the pronouns and it applies to me.  For a guy, becoming angry is a great excuse for the woman to call abuse.  Even though my patience was legendary and many times I resisted my wife's attempts to draw me into becoming violent ("draw a foul").  I am sure there are all sorts of gendered insults that can be used against a woman to deny her the right to be angry.  In fact, our county's batterer's program guidelines include "using gender to deny the survivor the ability to express the normal range of human emotions" as a form of abuse.

[LightAfterTunnel]

You know how you lay a baby on your lap and hold its feet in your hands and feel the push and pull of his legs?  I felt like God was doing that with me and saying "Look at these strong legs.  I made you to walk and not grow weary, to run and not faint."  And with my shoulders "Look at these strong shoulders that can carry such burdens yet not stoop.  I made you to stand tall and bend but not break".  And with my heart "Look at this strong heart.  I made you to love freely no matter how much it hurt.  I gave you an extra big heart not so you would have a larger vessel of love to empty out for others, but so that you could receive all the love I want to bestow on you."  And with my smile... .(For this one I need you to know that my given name means "Happy, joyful one".)

For my smile He said "Look at that beautiful smile.  I made you "Happy, joyful one".  I made you to beam with joy so brightly that it makes the whole world around you sparkle and bring joy to those around you.  You are "Happy, joyful one"."

I'm spending today resting in that image of who I am. 

BG

This is great!

I am not religious so I have never experienced this. But I am very spiritual and I do breathing exercises often and once in awhile I find myself in a truly wonderful state of relaxation and calm where I percieve my true self clearly.

I bet you felt great.

Personally, before going into the box any longer I would work on holding the thoughts of how strong you are and do things you like for yourself for awhile. Don’t think about your ex at all. Then after you’ve soaked it all in, and I mean soaked well, then come back to the box.

I stopped playing sports for 12 yrs and it was in one of these self appreciation moments that I restarted, now 2 yrs ago. It has done me wonders.

LAT