When I got home, my family was gone | Part 4

[pearlsw]

Hi DB,

It’s been awhile! Warm greetings!  

If I can pipe in a word of caution. When I met my current SO I thought he was done with his ex. He’d filed in their country of origin many months before where she and his kids were. Long story short, their legal battles weren’t over by a long shot. Two years in and they ramped up to insane levels. Eight years later and they are still dealing with issues in court. I’d say the first five years of our relationship were filled with battles with his ex and me being quite alone and neglected. I don’t know how many meals, days, trips to the lake, anywhere, everywhere, etc. were less than they could have been because of he and his ex battling things out via phone and text. I don’t know how I found the patience…well, I lost it big time eventually…

If I had it do this over again I would not prefer to get involved with a freshly divorced person with underage kids. My SO loved me, he meant well, but he was not emotionally available and it really damaged us both very deeply.

I think it can take years after a divorce to be ready to date. Sure parts of you may be ready, but other parts…not ready. It’s just a lot to go through a legal battle and sounds like you are in for a high conflict one. You’ll be cranky, dispirited, unhappy, low, distracted, miserable and the other person isn’t getting the best of you. They end up as a support system, which I get that one needs and wants, but getting started too early can take away some of the best of those giddy early times that make romances worth doing. With a well balanced person with some strong life/communication skills it’d probably be easier, but still…it is something to be really careful about! Timing matters! And sometimes as much as we want it to be different it is just not the right time!

Okay, just my overly formulated opinion! I want you to be carefree, and happy now! No waiting! Do what ya gotta do, just please keep your eyes open! None of us want more heartache for you!

big hugs, pearl.    When I got home, my family was gone | Part 1
When I got home, my family was gone | Part 2
When I got home, my family was gone | Part 3
When I got home, my family was gone | Part 4
When I got home, my family was gone | Part 5
When I got home, my family was gone | Part 6

[The Teacher]

I would proceed with caution. Finish what needs to be ended, If she's the one, she'll still be there.

[zachira]

Lots of really good advice here, so I don't have much to add. I just met this divorced guy who has been divorced for many years and can't stop talking about his divorce as if it were recent. My heart breaks to see someone so unwilling to look at their part in a very unhappy marriage, so much lost time and heartbreak that has gone on so much longer than necessary.

[DaddyBear77]

Hey everyone,

First of all, as someone said, if it's meant to be, it will be there when I'm ready.

I've decided to refocus my energy toward my relationship with my daughter and my divorce case. I won't lose sight of these again. Also, I will be attending CoDA and other support meetings in my area. I will focus my energy on things that can assist me in healing before I focus on new romantic relationships.

I will say that it is extremely helpful, and healing in it's own way, to be pursued and to pursue someone with whom there's a mutual attraction. Grey Kitty was correct, I think, in that there can be value to this kind of relationship. But I can see how my exuberance and "over the top" attitude about this is likely very out of line with reality. I've got lots of healing to do, that's for sure.

Thanks folks - I really appreciated your candor in this thread.

[DaddyBear77]

Hey everyone,

I've left this thread sit here for a while, and honestly it's because nothing significant has happened yet.

Our first hearing for temporary orders is set for June 15th. I doubt it will go anywhere except that the judge will order evaluations. Right? I think that's what happens next.

My attorney and I haven't connected much this week as I've been out of town. We have a long consult scheduled on Friday and I should have more info then.

Meanwhile, my wife is still refusing to share parenting on a 50/50 basis - she's trying to force the ":)isney Dad" plan that Skip described. I have proposed several alternatives and have had very little luck. I'm not proposing alternatives just to get "hours" though. I want to create a stable home environment for  my daughter now and in the future. This will be an big topic on Friday to see what I can do to fix this sooner rather than later.

That's the update for now. More on Friday.

[Notwendy]

I found the codependency groups to be very helpful. It was a scary step to go. I always associated these groups with alcohol addiction and that isn't a concern in my case, so I wondered if they would "fit" me. I also found myself in a room with people with substance addictions and wondered how could this help me?

I then realized that co-dependency fits the addiction model. An addiction is "using" something to escape painful feelings or shift the focus off our own feelings. The "something" can change but basically co-dependency is using "people". Not in a cruel way like taking advantage of them but by emotionally caretaking- focusing mainly on their needs- we take the focus off our own pain and issues.

It's interesting that we see that a pwBPD doesn't have a good way to manage their own feelings. Well neither do co-dependents. Numbing out and focusing on someone else's feelings isn't coping with our own. But be aware that once a person gets sober with their addictions, they are then left with the feelings they were using the addiction to escape.

This is where some good learning takes place. It may not be comfortable to feel the feeling- fear, loneliness, but feelings are normal and learning to manage them is a great gift. The groups are good, but one part not to skip is working with a sponsor. That felt like emotional boot camp for me, but I am grateful for it. When feelings get tough, the sponsor and other group members are a phone call away but they know not to enable you, but to guide you.

Some people don't relate to some of the religion context in the 12 steps but the basics are universal. We have people of all different belief systems in the group, including atheists. One idea of the higher power is to help let go of controlling other people and to help deal with than uncertainty. You can individualize that concept to what works for you.

[Skip]

Our first hearing for temporary orders is set for June 15th. I doubt it will go anywhere except that the judge will order evaluations. Right? I think that's what happens next.

Ah... .well, no.

The temporary orders (pendent lite orders, in your state) set budgets for what each of you can spend, where the paycheck goes, cancellation of credits cards, limits on taking on debt, major purchases, rent, child visitation hours (which will be in place until the divorce is final), schools, etc.

These are the controls you argue to be put in place to keep the other party from making a financial mess or control the children or forcing situations (like putting the child in another school  district).

This is a really important hearing.

There is little value to proposing visitation schedules to her... .you want to make the case for a constructive schedule to the judge... .he will most likely be inclined to keep things as they are unless you make a good argument otherwise.

You need to read up and engage us here, DB77!

Divorce proceedings do not happen overnight. Sometimes, it can be a long and arduous process. When that happens, it is imperative to have an Order in place for this interim time. This period, called Pendente Lite, is the time between when the Complaint for Divorce was filed and when the final Judgment of Divorce was entered.

During the Pendente Lite phase of the case, it is important to have an Order providing who will be paying what expenses. This includes household expenses, auto expenses, insurances, and personal expenses, both for the parties and for the children. These Orders can also provide that neither party can dissipate any assets Pendente Lite. Occasionally litigants try to modify their marital financial arrangements, and Pendente Lite Orders can prevent that from happening.

More importantly, Pendente Lite Orders can provide temporary custody arrangements until a final arrangement is agreed upon by the parties, or alternatively, decided by the Court at a trial. This can include not just the physical custody of the children, meaning where the children will be residing and parenting time schedules, but also legal custody for the children, which is the decision making authority for the children regarding their health, education, and welfare.

Pendente Lite Orders are to maintain the status quo of the marriage. Without getting an Order, a party may choose not to pay their spouse what the recipient spouse would be entitled to. Moreover, the payer may be overpaying what they should actually be paying. Pendente Lite Orders can provide interim relief for the parties, which often times is needed when parties cannot agree and their divorce does not get immediately resolved.

[Aussie JJ]

Meanwhile, my wife is still refusing to share parenting on a 50/50 basis - she's trying to force the ":)isney Dad" plan that Skip described. I have proposed several alternatives and have had very little luck. I'm not proposing alternatives just to get "hours" though. I want to create a stable home environment for  my daughter now and in the future. This will be an big topic on Friday to see what I can do to fix this sooner rather than later.

Hey DB77,

Been a long time for me being here, one thing I learnt (Austrlaian Court not US courts... .) is that they are essentially a process.  It isnt a fair or a just process its just a process that gets followed because the person in charge of it the Judge for the most part dots his "i's" and crosses his "t's"... .  The court follows the formula they have for resolving the situation.  If at present you have sweet nothing in terms of time with your daughter, don't expect that to instantly change on the first hearing.  US Courts may be different to Australian courts however I got told by my L originally to have short term Court Goals and long term End of Court Goals. 

My Short term court goals were always three things every single time. 
* Rebut/Correct issues she raised with documentation that related to our son, ignore everything else directed at me personally just ask for proof. 
* Raise my own issues and back them up with documentation. 
* Move closer to the final goal.  Get parts of the puzzle recognised in court orders to be retained at the next hearing leading up to the final hearing. 

Custody for me went like this in terms of Court appearances. 
First time at Court I got an extra 3 hours a week.  I went from having my son for 8 gours (3 times a week) a week to having him for 11 hours (3 times a week) a week. 
Second time at Court my son got an overnight every second weekend with me (Just turning 3 years old at the time).  She got ripped to shreds as well on this occasion for blockign it and not rocking up to court calling in sick. 
Third time I walked out with two full days (16 hours during the week) and every Saturday from 9am-15:30, every second Saturday I had my son overnight. 
Last time in court it stayed much the same but I had a schedule that changed gradually for the next 4 years increasing gradually giving me more and more time leading to the current where I have a 4-6-2-2.  I get the bold underlined days. 

It didn't happen instantly but initially there were no major changes made.  Short term my L had the goal of getting me one longer time period with my son and we got it.  I felt cheated and like it was a big waste of time and money.  That initial Court appearance however set up many things that we got later on.  Have a long term goal and recognise that this is like managing a project at work, make sure you set yourself up to get more and more later on and raise the issues that are important when this project is finished. 

This isn't ideal in many respects, however I get my son for 6 days out of the fortnight, nearly 50/50 and she agreed to it focusing on the "his only getting him every second weekend" aspect of it ignoring the fact that 2 months after court ended the schedule changed dramatically as it was his birthday.  I now have an absolutely awesome period of 6 days to work my backside off to make sure that I am free for all the other days or can finish work early and he has me in a really good healthy place being as attentive as I can be on those days. 

Finally, I know this isn't a project, its your children/children's future and also will dictate a large part of your future, this is hugely important.  The more emotionally detached you can be from it however the healthier the decisions are that you will make and the less it will drain you in the present.  Don't underestimate how much of your energy this can drain particularly if you try to understand or comprehend how someone can lie so blatantly and easily about you on a bit of paperwork.  Trying to understand or comprehend this was the most unhealthy thing I did in the court process, the more you focus on yourself, your kids and your future the better you will be now and the better the outcome will be towards the end of the court process. 

That was my experience from it, in hindsight.  Yet if someone had told me at the time to relax, make small goals that lead to the big goals and treat it like managing a project... .I would have strangled them if they were infront of me :P


AJJ

[ozmatoz]

Meanwhile, my wife is still refusing to share parenting on a 50/50 basis - she's trying to force the ":)isney Dad" plan that Skip described. I have proposed several alternatives and have had very little luck.

This is so very frustrating.  If you are proposing thoughtful, plausible, workable solutions and they are being communicated through attorney's they are being looked at.  Your wife is being counselled on your offers and how they could possibly play out in court.  They are playing a tight hand hoping you cave.  Also depending on your wife's relationship with her attorney she may be bullying them a little.  I found during my 4-way meeting that stbxw attorney was blindsided by a few things... .

She'll try to beat you up.  Stay calm, get to court.  Your lawyer can point out to the judge your efforts to come up with solutions.  Remember the courts are busy and focused on solutions more than the he said- she said garbage.  Fortunately for me its just been about money issues, she agreed upfront to a 50/50 parent plan.  I caved on some $$ to just get this moving and stop waiting on the court's time frames.

One thing that my L was great with was helping me whittle down to what really mattered.  There are a ton of things to decide on and you need to figure out which things to let go, and which things to fight for.  It seems from what you've written here that a workable parenting plan is most important and that financials less so.  Focus your energy there.  The money generally follows the parenting plan.

Don't forget about DB as well.  Use this non 50/50 time and go do some things you've wanted to do.

Good luck
-Oz

[livednlearned]

Our first hearing for temporary orders is set for June 15th. I doubt it will go anywhere except that the judge will order evaluations. Right? I think that's what happens next.

Everything that Skip said  

I can't remember if people have said this already, but heads up that temporary orders have a way of becoming permanent. At the very least, if you get a temp order and want to change it, you're in a one down position. It's harder to change temporary orders than it is to stay with them (status quo). It's not the end of the world if you get an unfavorable temp order, but if you can get a favorable temp order now, you're in a better position for later on.

Have you asked your attorney if the status quo parenting time you have set up now matters? You two can't decide on what is fair, so while it's likely that an evaluation could be ordered, the judge will still need to rule on temporary custody while you wait on the evaluation.

Don't be surprised if your current schedule for work dictates what the temp plan looks like. Can you clear the deck at work and make sure you are available to do 50/50 right away, if you haven't already?

Meanwhile, my wife is still refusing to share parenting on a 50/50 basis - she's trying to force the ":)isney Dad" plan that Skip described.

She's probably proposing what her L suggests is reasonable and acceptable in your county, most likely. Traditionally, men have accepted that schedule, or whomever is the breadwinner for the family. Her L is counseling her, and she's going with it. This isn't BPD stuff, this is regular court stuff. It's normal in even low-conflict divorces for people to feel like they should dig in their heels during this phase.

You don't like the schedule she's proposing, and she doesn't like what you're proposing -- pretty reasonable for where you are both at. So you two go to the next step, which is either mediation or court, however it works where you live. Things will move fast if you end up in court over this, so your best move may be to clear any possible work restrictions that impede your ability to start with the schedule you can do right now, so that it sets you up for how it will go in the foreseeable future.

One thing to ask your L is whether there is a bias in your county toward minimal exchanges. Some families can handle complicated back and forth schedules, but for the most part, courts seem to believe that it's better for kids to have fewer exchanges -- something that is also age dependent.

Do you have a list of questions for your L on Friday? It might help you to organize any questions you have.

What Aussie JJ says about the long term is very true. Even tho temp orders have a tendency to become permanent, there are always opportunities to modify the order.

You will be entering a period in which the judge is considered the "supreme witness" of a case, so what happens in terms of modifications starts to become the real evidence, if that makes sense.

Courts don't like having repeat customers. So it will start to look for ways to keep you two out of court. If it's clear that one party is the trouble maker interfering with what is best for the child, then the rulings will start to incrementally turn in favor of the cool-headed problem-solver  

[Radcliff]

I agree with Skip's observation that you need to plug in and step up your game prior to the court date.  Share with us the list of questions you have for your lawyer meeting.  Go into that meeting looking for him to articulate a strategy for a good outcome for the temporary orders.  He should be taking this next court date very seriously.  My guess is that he is, but is cool and professional about it.  He does this all the time.  Your level of concern should be higher than his.  If you assume he'll take care of everything without you leaning in, you're not going to get the best result.

To integrate what others have said, since temporary orders tend to become permanent, yet you also need to be a reasonable problem solver, you must bring all of your tools and talents to bear to get the best interim parenting arrangement at the next court date, while also being balanced and constructive.

The status quo has a huge amount of momentum.

Are you keeping a detailed log of your parenting time since your wife filed?  What does the split look like?

Do you have a log, or can you recreate a detailed picture, of your parenting time before she filed?  Reach back long enough that your reporting is not thrown off by a short period of increased travel for your new job.

Looking at the parenting split before and after she filed, you are going to want to be able to tell a story in 1-2 pages that supports you as a 50/50 parent going forward.  OK to have attachments, but don't assume they'll get read.

WW

[ForeverDad]

Lots of excellent responses here.  Key message is that you can't sit back and let others get their way.

My story, sadly quite lengthy, is that when I appeared for the first divorce hearing to get the temp order the judge ignored everything that had occurred up to that point.  He asked one question, "What are your work schedules?"  I replied I worked a standard 5 day week.  She replied she worked from home.  I should have jumped up and said I currently had possession of the family home but during the very brief hearing my lawyer said, "Quiet.  I'll handle it.  We'll fix any issues later."  Well, it turned out to be a 22 month temp order, not one word of it was changed before the final decree.  Soon the parenting investigation by the court's social worker recommended I move up from alternate weekends to equal time.  Court did nothing except to move on to the next step.  Then the custody evaluator submitted his initial report to the main judge that recommended mother immediately lose her temp custody.  Court did nothing except to move on to the next step.

Do I regret that I listened to my lawyer's advice to lay low.  Yes, to an extent.  However, I recently spoke with him and he said he wan't aggressive in court during the divorce because she was making so many allegations against me with multiple entities... .children's hospital ER visits, regional child abuse center, CPS, seeking Amber Alert, etc.

I agree with the others that you rally should try your best to get the best initial temp order possible for several reasons.  Your 'temp' order will likely be in effect for the length of your divorce, for us it is usually 1 to 2 years, sometimes even longer.  Court may not want to change the temp order during the divorce, since it is just "temporary".  If it is like what my lawyer estimated, it is figuring on only 7-9 months in all.  Our cases are usually double or triple that!

Also, once an order is in effect, court will be reluctant to make major changes.  Figure on incremental improvements every year or two or three.  That's why starting with a "less bad" starting/temp order is so crucial.

However, understand that court will be inclined to start with a "standard" approach.  Standard often means put mother in charge of parenting and father in charge of paying.  The hearing will be brief, maybe only a half hour.  You won't be able to go into great detail.  Be prepared to produce a list of all the times you've asked for parenting time and how often she refused.  Make clear how involved you were with parenting before you two separated.  She will claim you're not an involved father, you will have to counter that she's been blocking your previous involved parenting.  Ask the judge to ignore her increased time since separation since she's be obstructing much of your historical father-child time.

Do not make child support payments an issue, some dads sabotage themselves when it appears they want more parenting time in order to avoid paying a little more in child support.

[DaddyBear77]

So I realized that what I wrote here might be misleading. I have no intention to lie, but I admit I wasn't entirely open with my feelings and emotions in my last post. With good reason, I think. I felt very ashamed, embarrassed, and judged. I allowed myself to be very vulnerable to you, my bpdfamily, when I admitted I was feeling so strongly for this wonderful girl who happened back into my life.

Please, understand my feelings are valid - both for this girl, AND in regard to the shame, embarrassment, and judgement I felt when I revealed what I did.

My first reaction was to fully retreat and withdraw from this thread.

My second reaction was to share only the parts of me that felt safe to share - for example, my intention to find group support, and my intention to stay focused on my divorce and my daughter primarily.

Now I've allowed room for a third reaction - standing up and leading by example. I'll own my feelings and emotions, let them be what they are, and try hard to see through any messages that might hurt or embarrass me.

So, let me be absolutely clear: At this time, I have no intention to stop talking to this girl.

I intend to follow a careful path, and I intend to stay in Wisemind. As I mentioned, I also intend to get additional support beyond what is available here on this board - good advice in any stage of a relationship.

For the next little while, I don't intend to share a lot of detail about this girl here, but I will certainly share my story and how things are generally progressing.

I will also continue to share all of my struggles with custody, financial hardships, interactions with my STBXw, and anything related to the divorce process. THESE are the things I feel need primary focus - I mean that! And these are all the issues that you have all helped me with so much.

So I hope this addition to my thread helps clarify exactly where I am.

And if you've read this far, I hope this encourages you to be open and vulnerable in your own threads. We're all family here, so lets stick together.

~DaddyBear77

[DaddyBear77]

Lots of excellent responses here.  Key message is that you can't sit back and let others get their way.

Thanks ForeverDad (and others) - this is a perfect summary of some key points.

As I said, tomorrow (Friday) I have an extensive meeting with my attorney planned.

My ideal outcome is:
1. Equal residential custody, with no PPR (Parent of Primary Residency)
2. 50/50 distribution of marital debt and assets
3. Reasonable alimony and child support payments, with an appropriate imputed income to my STBX

How to achieve this outcome will be the primary topic of conversation. I have a list of the elements needed to achieve the above, as well as a plan on what Minimum position I'm willing to accept. On the off off chance that my STBX or anyone else found this post, I am going to hold off on sharing those elements until I've had time to execute them and she's aware of our strategy.

Again, tomorrow is when we finalize our strategy - I will let you know how things go.

[livednlearned]

Hi Daddybear,

No judgement here, friend 

I am in a longterm relationship with someone who was still in the separation phase of his divorce (in my state, you have to be separated a year before you can divorce).

I was out 2 years but my custody battle had just peaked (ex had a psychotic episode that disturbed everyone involved).

Friends here gave me the same advice you received.

I understand how you feel judged. Something good finally happens, your world is upside down and falling apart, and people tell you to doubt yourself.

I get it.

Flash forward to today.

My SO and I are getting married this summer and I feel unbelievably lucky to have met him. Our dogs introduced us  while we were out walking in adjacent neighborhoods. Everything you wrote about your friend, I could have written about SO.

I took the advice to heart without ending the relationship. I think you can walk this path and come out ok.

It does take work.

And I do think you have to be extraordinarily careful to not alert your wife that you are dating. My ex did not discover I was dating until about a year in. He tried to destroy SO's reputation, sent emails to SO's boss, did drive by's, started stalking my home, all the usual high conflict stuff. The worst is that it impacted my son. The parental alienation spiked, and my son, rightly or wrongly, blamed SO for being the new element in such a fragile broken family dynamic. This would have happened no matter when I started dating, but it was better that I was 3 years out of the marriage and had learned more skills to support my son.

This doesn't mean you can't date. It means you have to recognize how important discretion is right now.

The other thing that helped my relationship with SO, and something I believe you may be able to do with yours, is to limit how much time you discuss your divorce/custody. Give yourself 5-10 minutes tops, enough time to report out. I told SO that I had a team of advisors and that I was handling things, but wanted him to know x and y were happening so he understood why I could only see him for 4 hours on Sat and 4 hours on Sun. Or, if I was feeling more anxious than normal, I wanted him to know that it was because of x, and that I was seeing my therapist on Tues so I had that covered. Don't turn your friend into a therapist! It will end badly   It also fans the codependent stuff.

When we are in a dysfunctional relationship, we triangulate. This is the drama triangle -- it's vicious and toxic and can feel like the only way to relate to people after you've been in it for a while. It's very easy to continue triangulating when you meet someone new, especially when you have an adversary like your wife, who is high conflict. It becomes you and this wonderful person against your ex, against your friend's ex. It can feel heady to have an ally after all this time duking it out alone in your difficult marriage. I don't think this is the same as trauma bonding, but it's in the ball park.

When the drama goes away, your triangle starts to weaken and the new relationship will wobble with it.

I could not have made it through the early parts of my relationship with SO without a therapist. I had some PTSD-type reactions to things, and she helped me pinpoint where they were coming from, and how to handle things with SO.

Just wanted you to know I admire you for sharing how you feel, and being brave to tell us how you're feeling

[zachira]

I have just finished reading "Attached". It is the best book I ever read on how to recover from bad relationships, how to improve a relationship, and how to have a happy relationship in the future. It specifically explains why we feel so badly when a relationship ends and why we try to go back to our partner and/or avoid doing what we have to do to heal before getting into another relationship.

[Notwendy]

I am sorry you felt judged DB. I think it is very courageous to come forward and say what you did. That is I think I huge step to take in speaking your truth instead of hiding it out of concern of what others may think.

I understand how you feel. I felt judged and targeted both by a T and the people in the 12 step groups I attended. I hoped to feel supported but darn, whatever I said got poked at and they turned the mirror on me. I was angry and uncomfortable but eventually I understood that their comments caused me to grow emotionally and I am grateful for it. I think we need some of both, the kind of support that feels good when we are emotionally hurting but also the kind that pushes us forward. I think we are all on a self improvement path but there isn't a destination where we say we have arrived- I think we are all just in a supportive/sharing role on this endeavor.

I think you have had mixed responses- some say it is a good thing to have this romance, others are speaking of the potential pittfalls but nobody but you knows all the details or this person, or you. This is your journey DB and I think the people here on this board are here for support along the way but the choices are yours.

It isn't our place to judge you. You don't have to hide who you are for concern of being judged and if someone does judge you, you can take this info as useful or dismiss it. However, sometimes people say things that bother us and it is because perhaps they are seeing something we don't want to see and when we examine why it bothers us, it can help us to make positive changes. I think the message to be who we are is a big theme in relationships and your post reflects that. That's a step to be proud of.

[flourdust]

You certainly don't need to obey anyone here or to censor yourself to please us. (That's something I've learned to be aware of -- my co-dependent tendencies making me want to be a  pleaser to my audience.) It's good to have that self-awareness and reflection as you go forward.

Not long into my own divorce, a friend introduced me to a woman who wanted an informational interview about my education & career path. She was gorgeous and flirted with me quite a bit. For a few days after that, I was consumed with thinking about asking her out ... .mostly wondering if she expected me to ask her out, if she'd be disappointed if I didn't. Then I took a step back and noticed that my thoughts were not about what I wanted but about meeting her desires. Co-dependent thinking again. I didn't take any action, but I'm glad I had the experience to see how my habits could get myself back into a bad relationship.

[Harley Quinn]

DB I admire your openness and honesty in sharing your feelings.  It's a strength to recognise how you feel and the ways it affects you.  Keep doing this!  Hearing things that make us uncomfortable can understandably cause us to retreat.  I think most of us have felt that way at some point in our lives.  Just know that there's no judgement here.  We want you to be happy and well.  Whatever you choose to do as you follow your path, we'll be in your corner.

Love and light x 

[david]

I have a friend that went through a divorce. He felt guilty about it. His ex was not BPD. He offered her much more than the courts would have given. He did it because of the guilt. I suggested he follow what the court would do. He could always give his ex more if he wanted afterwards. Two years post divorce he got into financial difficulty because of his offer. Ex would not renegotiate. It took him another three years to get his finances in order and he almost lost his business.

[rj47]

Now I've allowed room for a third reaction - standing up and leading by example. I'll own my feelings and emotions, let them be what they are, and try hard to see through any messages that might hurt or embarrass me.

So, let me be absolutely clear: At this time, I have no intention to stop talking to this girl.

DB77.

I reread most of the input from our neighbors in this community all of which provide valuable insight. We all have that shared experience, right?  Sorry bro, but I’m gonna wander off the reservation a bit.

I can only offer my experience coming out of a thirty-year relationship full of doubt, self-loathing, regret, and fear. I met someone quite by accident (and at the wrong time) and became good friends. I kept myself at a distance while caring friends encouraged me to be careful, take care of myself, date regularly, and take time to rebuild my life. She and I knew each other for nine months before I realized; so what if we fail? My life was reasonably secure and what more did I really have to lose? I purchased a ticket, traveled great distance, and met someone that I loved as a friend first under a large clock in a train station in London. It was a five day date. I prepared myself for disappointment and a quick return home. But, we both knew better. Since then it’s been 2-1/2 years, 6+ months of face time together, a thousand hours on phone and Skype, and a lot of airfares back and forth working through immigration issues. Truth is, I loved her before we ever met. It could end tomorrow, but I’ll never regret the risks we both took. Such is life. I’m thankful that I didn’t run after believing for so long that I was damaged goods. I learned that despite traveling to hell and back; I’m really alright. So are you.

Maybe we’re better people for enduring for so many years. Life and love is a risk no matter who we give our trust to and regardless of petty issues and the inevitable “elephant in the room” we desperately want to avoid. Those of us that have been to the brink of despair often tell ourselves that we can’t trust our intuition while coming out of that self-imposed exile... Its a valid concern. But, we might also need to avoid labelling ourselves as tragic co-dependents that set ourselves up for future heartbreak. Of course I was! So what? Evolve. Life and love might just pass us by while we wait out the obligatory mourning and self reflection period. After all, we did allow ourselves to be drawn into the near madness of another.

Make a bad choice? You’ll survive it. You seem to have a thoughtful mind and healthy perspective BD.  You know well what’s at stake and what the cost might be for following your heart. But you’ve already proved to yourself that you can survive the crazy train to self-immolation Going forward everything else should be a walk in the park. You know well the signs and where the exit door is. Never repeat the mistakes of the past. But should you do so, shake off the dust and try again.

You got to do what you got to.

[DaddyBear77]

This week is going to be critical. I'm just echoing back what others have said, mostly to make sure I understand and process the implications.

To recap, my wife filled a complaint for divorce a little over 45 days ago. About 30 days later, my wife filed a motion requesting temporary support payments that were at least twice what the statue would call for, advanced payment of her legal fees, and primary custody for her with visitation every other weekend.

I had switched attorneys around the time the motion was filed, so I didn't actually get a chance yet to respond to the complaint. So as of today, I have not made any filings with the court.

I think this is a good position to be in.

We now know her hand, and we know what her complaints will be. There's everything in here from false allegations of abuse and neglect, both to her and to my daughter. There are allegations of inappropriate use of prescription drugs, financial abuse and manipulation, hiding money, and reckless driving.

I spoke with my attorney Friday and have another discussion Tuesday. I've got pages and pages of evidence to include as exhibits - I have e-mails and text messages, I have bank statements, I have journal entries, photographs. She has no evidence and only her unsubstantiated claims. My attorney is giving me assurances that this is going to all be in my favor. I wish I had a better idea of exactly it will all go.

But I started out saying this is a big week, right? Because I think that on the basis of these filings, the judge will start to consider which side to lean toward, and after the hearing, these temporary orders might stick around for the long term, correct? So I'm focusing as much energy as I can in getting this filing perfect with all the evidence and timelines and dates I can come up with.

Does this sound like a good strategy? IS this one of those moments in the case that are critical? I think it is, I'm just double checking.

[DaddyBear77]

I'm really happy that I just put my true, authentic self out there. I did so with the knowledge that the best of what we have to offer here at bpdfamily would come shining through. And it really did. So thank you. I really, truly appreciate all of you.

I am continuing to spend time with my friend periodically. We always do so with complete discretion, and never spend more than a couple of hours together. I'm always checking myself and making sure that I consider my most important goals and values first and foremost. Being loved and appreciated is a nice feeling, but making sure I take care of my divorce and my daughter, as well as myself, are all higher priorities for me.

This week is going to be a critical week for me. I've written more about it here on this thread.

Thanks again for everyone's response and support. I heard everything you said even if I didn't like it, I promise.

[Skip]

To recap, my wife filled a complaint for divorce a little over 45 days ago. About 30 days later, my wife filed a motion requesting temporary support payments that were at least twice what the statue would call for, advanced payment of her legal fees, and primary custody for her with visitation every other weekend.

I had switched attorneys around the time the motion was filed, so I didn't actually get a chance yet to respond to the complaint. So as of today, I have not made any filings with the court.

I think this is a good position to be in.

Hopefully your attorney filled an answer to the complaint within the 35 day deadline.

We now know her hand, and we know what her complaints will be. There's everything in here from false allegations of abuse and neglect, both to her and to my daughter. There are allegations of inappropriate use of prescription drugs, financial abuse and manipulation, hiding money, and reckless driving.

You don't really know her hand... .this is just the opening gambit. During the discovery, they will work to find evidence of anything they can use against you... .and they can easily drop or add things from the original complaint.

But, this is not what temporary hearings are about. At temporary hearings your wife is going to ask for things (as are you) and the judge (who may not even be the divorce judge) will decide. She may ask for sole use of the house and payment of all her attorney fees, or a car or apartment, of closing of all credit cards... .

Has your attorney asked you to fill out an inventory or to list your anticipated expenses for the duration of the law suit?

[ForeverDad]

I don't know precisely what your state considers Parent of Primary Responsibility.  Generally an important facet with PPR would be determining where your child attends school should either of you move during/after the divorce.  Likely she is already in or in a few months will be in elementary school.  (There are specific financial risks if your spouse wants expensive private tuition and you don't since court may order you to pay for what mother wants.)  Often one parent is designated the one to step forward.  If the court grants her majority time then she likely will be in charge of school-related matters.

I have a concern about many courts.  Their policies, procedures and rules often default toward favoring mothers.  It's not always "Who should be the parent in charge?" but rather "Why shouldn't mother default to being in charge?"  Not good but that can be the historical scenario.  So if you ask for merely a 'fair' 50% and mother has asked for what is often perceived as 'standard' Dads Get Alternate Weekends, don't be surprised if judge isn't inclined to stray far from prior patterns.

My lawyer never said, "Judge, since separation the other spouse has obstructed and sabotaged my client's parenting at every turn.  We have documentation of her concerning behaviors and patterns, probably too much detail for this brief hearing.  Please read what we have already filed.  We are concerned that this divorce will be drawn out for well over a year, possibly even two years, and a quick 'typical' or 'temporary' order will not be in the child's best interests over that long a span of time.  If father is not designated to have majority time then at least let him have equal time to reduce risk of obstruction and manipulation."  Result?  My lawyer said "we'll fix it later", magistrate ordered 'typical' dad alternate weekends, my then-stbEx delayed as much as she could to prolong her very favorable temp order and the temp order remained unchanged for nearly 22 months.

[ForeverDad]

I sure hope we didn't imply we were critical or unfeeling.  We've been burned in a variety of ways and overall sharing what we saw as risks and cautions.

Feeling lost, lonely and exposed is sadly all too typical in our situations.  I recall I reached out to a friend I knew from the decade before I met my spouse (late 70s to mid-80s).  As it turned out, nothing had happened back then because (1) she had not been interested in me  (though her mother was on my side, unknown to me back then) and (2) she figured marriage would equal a house full of kids and she wanted time for herself after her youth was spent on raising her younger siblings.  Anyway, after my divorce was final I still waited.  Eventually I did reach out to her (seeking what she thought of me back then in the bloom of youth) and we have been in contact off and on in recent years.  Guess what?  Too much of the conversation focused on my ex's continuing antics and whatnot!  A lasting relationship has to focus on the two persons, not others.  In time that did recede into the background but I learned a tough lesson.  You can't, I couldn't, develop a new relationship while still focused on the existing high conflict.  She even said she couldn't be in a relationship while a third person was still intruding.  Also, she'd never married, had no children and so she felt it was all a bit much.  Anyway, that's why I wrote it's usually best to ride out the worst of the divorce and blow-back so then you can later give proper attention to a new relationship.  Yeah, the timing is off, someone appeared so quickly, just view our thoughts as heads-up as well as best wishes.

[flourdust]

I echo what Skip said -- you need to have filed a response as well as any motions for temporary things that YOU want (parenting plan, disposition of residence, proposed amount of temporary spousal support or child support, as a starting list). Otherwise, you are just playing defense.

The judge will have reviewed your response (which presumably includes any rebuttals of false claims made by your wife and your proposals for a parenting schedule and temporary financial arrangements). The judge will have reviewed some of your supporting evidence, if you included it -- looking for justifications for any disparities in parenting schedules, your incomes, and both of your proposed household budgets. The judge may or may not have looked at (or skimmed) tons of supporting documentation, if you sent them along by the deadline.

The judge is likely to ask some questions of both attorneys -- either in court with you present or just with the attorneys in chambers. The judge is trying to quickly determine -- how much money is available for support/maintenance (cutting through any discrepancies or exaggerations in your budgets), is there any good reason not to assign a standard temporary parenting schedule, and are there any other pressing issues in the motions that need to be resolved in temporary orders. The judge will finish by ordering the next steps, which may include evaluations or discovery for the next court date -- your written response and attorney can request specific steps, and that will be considered.

You may not get the judge's temporary orders for another month or two.

[flourdust]

One last piece of hopefully unnecessary advice. If you haven't filed a counter-claim to her petition, your next step should be to ask the judge for a continuance -- postpone this initial hearing by 15-30 days to give you time to submit your counter-claim and key pieces of supporting evidence. Do NOT go into the courtroom not having filed anything with the expectation that the judge is going to listen to an oral counter-claim and sit there reading budgets and parenting schedules... .you will get screwed so hard.

[Skip]

You may want to take command of this... .not depend on your attorney to run your divorce... .but take the lead yourself. Even the best attorneys tend to do things at the last minute (because they have lots of other clients to work and because things change a lot at the last minute).  

You will do better if you dive deep into the process and drive the approach.

Its not a great analogy, but an attorney is a like a real-estate agent - they help you get the transaction done, but they don't pick the house, the lifestyle, or suffer the consequences of bad decisions.

What happened in your recent attorney conference?

[livednlearned]

We always do so with complete discretion, and never spend more than a couple of hours together.

That's roughly how I did it with SO and I think that slow slow pace is key.

No love bombing language or idealization, either. I set the pace and he never pushed.

It was a chance to test how well I set and kept boundaries. And to a lesser extent, how well he respected those boundaries.

Having language to point to codependent behaviors helped, too. After dating for a year, I might notice something that felt codependent-y and point it out. It was frankly strange to be with someone else recovering from codependence because I got to experience how it felt when someone solved a problem for me. It took away the pleasure of feeling competent and the satisfaction of working through something.

This is hard to balance with the simple pleasure of doing something for someone because you love them.

Knowing the terrain, together, has made our relationship healthier but it does take hard work to not slip into old patterns.

Kids will really flare up those patterns because your loyalties will divide pretty quick. When both of you are emotionally triggered at the same time, that's when things get real.