Set Firm Clear Boundary, Boundary Ignored

[Long_term_dad]

I realized I needed to take a break and not talk on the phone with my ex.  We're divorcing, trying to be amicable, and she's the BP.  Traditionally I have gone to great lengths to avoid conflict with her (yet we were frequently in conflict... .) and I figured out that even talking on the phone was stressful for me.  So, I drafted a polite email and said I needed to not talk on the phone for a bit and thank you in advance for respecting this even if you don't understand it.  I went out of my way to be friendly but firm.  It took a lot of courage and I expected some explosion or nasty email.  I did get 2 emails and 2 texts but also 2-3 voicemails.  I will not reply to the call but I have to say I am kind of surprised and it's no wonder why, if I were to capitulate (as I might have recently), she wouldn't respect my boundaries.

But it's hard, both setting the boundary and fearing the blowback.

Just wanted to say that.  I'm grateful for this community.

[OrionLeonardo]

Long term dad,

Congratulations on facing your fear, knowing the blow back and setting boundaries anyway. That's a huge step one I am learning myself.

I am proud of you.

 

[Long_term_dad]

Long term dad,

Congratulations on facing your fear, knowing the blow back and setting boundaries anyway. That's a huge step one I am learning myself.

I am proud of you.

 

Thank you so much.  It means everything.  I appreciate it.

[once removed]

have you heard of or used the BIFF technique?

[Long_term_dad]

have you heard of or used the BIFF technique?

I have not but would love to, if you can point me somewhere?

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Ltd, I'm here to confirm that you're doing the right thing by keeping good boundaries.  After separating from my BPDxW, she was constantly calling to berate me.  It got to the point that I had to stop taking her calls because she was always blasting and blaming me.  I think you were quite considerate to send a polite email explaining your position.  You deserve to have your boundary respected, so keep up the good work!

Then I started receiving an avalanche of nasty-grams via email.  I set up a separate folder in my InBox to transfer her messages "for later."  Sometimes I reviewed them; sometimes not; yet it proved a helpful way to take control of the barrage.

Another technique I used was to have an independent person (my sister) review any long, abusive diatribes received via email and then have her let me know if anything warranted a reply.  It got to the point that it wasn't healthy for me to be processing so many painful and hurtful messages, so I had to curtail it for my own recovery process.

LuckyJim

[Long_term_dad]

Hey Ltd, I'm here to confirm that you're doing the right thing by keeping good boundaries.  After separating from my BPDxW, she was constantly calling to berate me.  It got to the point that I had to stop taking her calls because she was always blasting and blaming me.  I think you were quite considerate to send a polite email explaining your position.  You deserve to have your boundary respected, so keep up the good work!

Then I started receiving an avalanche of nasty-grams via email.  I set up a separate folder in my InBox to transfer her messages "for later."  Sometimes I reviewed them; sometimes not; yet it proved a helpful way to take control of the barrage.

Another technique I used was to have an independent person (my sister) review any long, abusive diatribes received via email and then have her let me know if anything warranted a reply.  It got to the point that it wasn't healthy for me to be processing so many painful and hurtful messages, so I had to curtail it for my own recovery process.

LuckyJim

Thank you LuckyJim,

I appreciate the support.  I asked for no voice communications (no calls) but, as I said, this has been met with an avalanche of texts and emails, so I may 1) expand my scope and 2) set up a filtering thing, too.

I have to say that by making and sticking with the boundary, and to the extent that has caused me to disengage (I still fret but am not acting), it's looking to me like she's panicking simply because the connection feels cut off.  She has  no reason to panic (it's been like 36 hours since we talked) so one wonders what the panic is. And therein, I sense, may lay some insight for me because although I am not acting on my impulses to reciprocate, I have my own panic around it (not sure what she fears but I fear armageddon).  So, if as a couple we're in a cycle of soothing each other's panic, no wonder sh*t got out of control and the method to support the madness became the madness itself.  Very interesting.

Thank you for your response.  It is appreciated.

[mama-wolf]

Traditionally I have gone to great lengths to avoid conflict with her (yet we were frequently in conflict... .) and I figured out that even talking on the phone was stressful for me.

Hi Ltd--this is a very familiar pattern.  We Nons tend to bend over backward to avoid the conflict with our pwBPD, to the point where we stress ourselves out completely when interacting with them... .trying to anticipate the point of conflict, trying to be honest but omit or avoid details that we know will provoke them, trying to placate them when it seems like we have gotten too close to a provocation.  It's no wonder it was stressful for you--I know it definitely was for me!

But it's hard, both setting the boundary and fearing the blowback.

I wanted to join the others and say good for you for setting the boundary and sticking to it!  It really is hard.  When my uBPDxw and I started seeing our MC in January, she recommended a book about boundaries to me.  I had expressed to her that I had been trying to set better limits with my pwBPD, and she specifically acknowledged that people who haven't had to respect healthy boundaries tend to really struggle with it once they're put in place.

it's looking to me like she's panicking simply because the connection feels cut off.  She has  no reason to panic (it's been like 36 hours since we talked) so one wonders what the panic is.

I think it may be less about this particular boundary and more about her realizing she has lost some of the control over the situation.  Again, good for you!  Stay focused on what is good and right for you.  You can be amicable, but stick with being firm about what you need.  It's her responsibility to respect that.

mw

[Long_term_dad]

Hi Ltd--this is a very familiar pattern.  We Nons tend to bend over backward to avoid the conflict with our pwBPD, to the point where we stress ourselves out completely when interacting with them... .trying to anticipate the point of conflict, trying to be honest but omit or avoid details that we know will provoke them, trying to placate them when it seems like we have gotten too close to a provocation.  It's no wonder it was stressful for you--I know it definitely was for me!

I wanted to join the others and say good for you for setting the boundary and sticking to it!  It really is hard.  When my uBPDxw and I started seeing our MC in January, she recommended a book about boundaries to me.  I had expressed to her that I had been trying to set better limits with my pwBPD, and she specifically acknowledged that people who haven't had to respect healthy boundaries tend to really struggle with it once they're put in place.

I think it may be less about this particular boundary and more about her realizing she has lost some of the control over the situation.  Again, good for you!  Stay focused on what is good and right for you.  You can be amicable, but stick with being firm about what you need.  It's her responsibility to respect that.

mw

Thank you.  I have tasted my freedom from the tyranny!

[Mutt]

Hi Long_term_dad,

I think it may be less about this particular boundary and more about her realizing she has lost some of the control over the situation.

Probably a lot of members can relate with having no boundaries or floating boundaries, your stbxpwBPD knows that if she pushes she’ll get what she wants, when you start setting hard boundaries with a pwBPD or non’s people that will take advantage of your good nature, they’re not used to this change you’ll get this back lash it’s a residual effect of the changes that you’ve made ( setting boundaries ) it’s expected, it will subside, it will get better keep doing what you’re doing.

[Long_term_dad]

Hi Long_term_dad,

Probably a lot of members can relate with having no boy Darius or floating boundaries, your stbxpwBPD knows that if she pushes she’ll get what she wants, when you start setting hard boundaries with a pwBPD or non’s people that will take advantage of your good nature, they’re not used to this change you’ll get this back lash it’s a residual effect of the changes that you’ve made ( setting boundaries ) it’s expected, it will subside, it will get better keep doing what you’re doing.

Mutt,

Thanks for your reply.

We met yesterday, very briefly (according to her it couldn't wait it had to be last night, and so on).  I agreed but set conditions: public place, at a certain time, I only had X minutes.  At the designated time she called (and I answered) to ask that I "please this one time cancel my other plans to meet" (note: definitely not the first time I would rearrange my schedule to accommodate her) and I said "no, come now or else I can't meet". She showed up and started with the big guns, ie since I was not treating her well she didn't think we could use a mediator to handle our divorce settlement (as we have long agreed we would) but thought that "collaborative lawyers" were the way to go.  She knew I would react to that.  I said "fine.  Do what you want but realize we have one pile of assets so if you want to pay 2x $400 an hour for "collaborative lawyers" to do what a mediator will do, know that that money comes off the top".  When asked exactly how collaborative lawyers would encourage me to be nicer to her, and (I inserted) btw it would definitely not encourage being friendly" she didn't have an answer.  Then the conversation moved to all the other "must deal with now" matter which, in the end, didn't exist.  I had to go and I walked her to the car and was berated for not being nice (for those not following the thread I went incommunicado for less than a day and I didn't take her 3 phone calls after I explicitly asked, politely, that we not talk on the phone) and in the end this was all about her feeling threatened.  I am not blaming her for this nor am I here to just criticize her and, actually, I feel compassion for her bc she is operating on sheer reflex and she's dealing with whatever is coming up now that I set an actual boundary (gasp!) and I also understand that despite compassion she might just do something stupid like invoke a lawyer which I then would have to match, and she might go into burn the house down mode. The really good news is I stood strong, and she didn't get under my skin like she would have just a day earlier, pre-boundary setting.  What a difference setting and keeping a boundary makes.  As I assess this I see that I could probably be a bit more diplomatic and sensitive to her BPD-ness personality, which will be in my best interest and will also be less provocative for her.

I have listened and listened to certain bookmarked passages of the Eggshells book notably those about family patterns and boundaries. I live in So Cal so spend plenty of time in the car and thank goodness for the book and for Audible.  I would be lost without both the "Stop Walking on Eggshells" book and without the support and mere presence of this group. To whoever set it up, thank you and to those who haven't done so yet please try to support the group with a financial contribution (I did) no matter how small. These web communities don't run themselves.

[MeandThee29]

The really good news is I stood strong, and she didn't get under my skin like she would have just a day earlier, pre-boundary setting.  What a difference setting and keeping a boundary makes.  As I assess this I see that I could probably be a bit more diplomatic and sensitive to her BPD-ness personality, which will be in my best interest and will also be less provocative for her.

Don't be too hard on yourself. It takes practice. You're basically defining yourself in a new way, so it's a hard process.

Once I read that having boundaries is part of authentic love. That really shook me.

[Mutt]

Hi Long_term_dad,

It sounds like you handled yourself well I have codependent traits and it’s hard to shake off the behaviours sometimes, what I mean is I worry about other peoples feelings. We’re not responsible for other people’s feeliings that’s self management. As you know a pwBPD are not very good at managing their emotions it’s a part of the disorder that being said being mentally ill you still have a responsibility to help yourself get better - no one else can do that for you.

Give it time don’t worry about her she survived before you and she’ll survive long after you, don’t worry about hurt feelings you can still be nice, she’ll eventually get it if you stay consistent with your boundaries.

[Harley Quinn]

I have not but would love to, if you can point me somewhere?

BIFF stands for Brief, Informative, Friendly and Firm. It has kept me on the right side of sane when dealing with my son's father and as you work on boundaries I believe it can help you too. There are a couple of workshops here on the topic and This is one of them. 

Remembering that our boundaries are on ourselves, can you see this working for you?

Love and light x

[mama-wolf]

She showed up and started with the big guns, ie since I was not treating her well she didn't think we could use a mediator

When asked exactly how collaborative lawyers would encourage me to be nicer to her, and (I inserted) btw it would definitely not encourage being friendly" she didn't have an answer.  Then the conversation moved to all the other "must deal with now" matter which, in the end, didn't exist.  

I had to go and I walked her to the car and was berated for not being nice (for those not following the thread I went incommunicado for less than a day and I didn't take her 3 phone calls after I explicitly asked, politely, that we not talk on the phone) and in the end this was all about her feeling threatened.  

Ltd, I wanted to congratulate you on sticking with your boundaries so well!  It's pretty amazing how they react (including how quickly) once they realize there has been some kind of change in the power dynamic.

Your pwBPD's reaction to the boundary, and especially the part about being berated for not being nice really stuck out to me.  It is so similar to my uBPDxw's reaction to me finally setting some clear, firm boundaries with her.  Her choice of words was to tell me I was not being empathetic to her, and she really got angry.  My needs didn't matter to her one bit... .once I established some kind of restriction on how she was to interact with me, no matter how minor, it set her into panic mode.

As HQ mentioned, we really have to hold onto the part about boundaries being on ourselves.  It's about what we need and what we will/won't tolerate.  We are not responsible for our pwBPD's feelings about those boundaries.  That is up to them to deal with.  My ex couldn't stand that I was finally resisting taking any responsibility for her reactions/feelings about my choices, and it sounds like yours feels similarly.

What a difference setting and keeping a boundary makes.

It really is amazing how it changes things.  It doesn't get rid of the extreme reactions, but it really does shift the control of the situation back onto more even ground.  Again, good for you!

mw

[Long_term_dad]

Ltd, I wanted to congratulate you on sticking with your boundaries so well!  It's pretty amazing how they react (including how quickly) once they realize there has been some kind of change in the power dynamic.

Your pwBPD's reaction to the boundary, and especially the part about being berated for not being nice really stuck out to me.  It is so similar to my uBPDxw's reaction to me finally setting some clear, firm boundaries with her.  Her choice of words was to tell me I was not being empathetic to her, and she really got angry.  My needs didn't matter to her one bit... .once I established some kind of restriction on how she was to interact with me, no matter how minor, it set her into panic mode.

As HQ mentioned, we really have to hold onto the part about boundaries being on ourselves.  It's about what we need and what we will/won't tolerate.  We are not responsible for our pwBPD's feelings about those boundaries.  That is up to them to deal with.  My ex couldn't stand that I was finally resisting taking any responsibility for her reactions/feelings about my choices, and it sounds like yours feels similarly.

It really is amazing how it changes things.  It doesn't get rid of the extreme reactions, but it really does shift the control of the situation back onto more even ground.  Again, good for you!

mw

Thank you MW.  It's been quiet lately (too quiet... .).  It's a coincidence that, too, "have no empathy" for her LOL.  It is amazing how quickly the power dynamic shifts.  And it seems a little silly in retrospect but I was so, so, so stressed and it was so hard to make that boundary.  I don't want to put my body through that again.

I appreciate your support.  I really do. Thank you.  It helps.

[Lucky Jim]

it's looking to me like she's panicking simply because the connection feels cut off.  She has  no reason to panic (it's been like 36 hours since we talked) so one wonders what the panic is.

Hello again, Ltd,  Concerning her panic, I would submit that it is her Fear of Abandonment kicking in, which is a common theme for those w/BPD.  To the extent you can resist the need for any knee-jerk response to her panic, I think you will find yourself in a healthier position.  I was quite susceptible to manipulation (F-O-G), and it took a lot of practice for me to break the habit, as others have suggested.  You're making great strides so keep up the good work.

LJ

[once removed]

As I assess this I see that I could probably be a bit more diplomatic and sensitive to her BPD-ness personality, which will be in my best interest and will also be less provocative for her.

BIFF= brief, informative, friendly, firm. its an emotionally unloaded, "just business" communication technique. the email was a little loaded (nothing too bad), and she was (highly) reactive.

it sounds like divorce communications are a little testy, as they can be. do the two of you share children?

[Long_term_dad]

BIFF= brief, informative, friendly, firm. its an emotionally unloaded, "just business" communication technique. the email was a little loaded (nothing too bad), and she was (highly) reactive.

it sounds like divorce communications are a little testy, as they can be. do the two of you share children?

Thank you.

We have 2 children. One is away at college, on is a 3rd year high school student at home.  W and high school student live together.  I am not there any longer but am nearby ish, but it can be awkward and I am concerned about my youngest.  I'm not at all concerned for her safety or anything really material like that, rather, I am concerned that daughter has to carry much of the emotional burden.  Daughters and I talk but the place is small so the child at home can't talk freely when W is home (W eavesdrops).

[Lucky Jim]

I am concerned that daughter has to carry much of the emotional burden.  Daughters and I talk but the place is small so the child at home can't talk freely when W is home (W eavesdrops).

Hey Ltd, I wonder whether you could invite your HS daughter out for a pizza, or some similar outing without your W.  It's important, I would suggest, for you to maintain open communications w/her.  I wouldn't be surprised if your W tries to prevent it, but that would be typical for someone w/BPD, because those w/BPD are highly suspicious about what is being said behind their backs.  I think your concerns about the emotional burden on your D are well-placed, because those w/BPD tend to transfer their emotions to others, in an effort to relieve their inner turmoil.  Sad stuff, I know, but you seem to have a good handle on it!

LuckyJim

[Long_term_dad]

Hey Ltd, I wonder whether you could invite your HS daughter out for a pizza, or some similar outing without your W.  It's important, I would suggest, for you to maintain open communications w/her.  I wouldn't be surprised if your W tries to prevent it, but that would be typical for someone w/BPD, because those w/BPD are highly suspicious about what is being said behind their backs.  I think your concerns about the emotional burden on your D are well-placed, because those w/BPD tend to transfer their emotions to others, in an effort to relieve their inner turmoil.  Sad stuff, I know, but you seem to have a good handle on it!

LuckyJim

LuckyJim,

Yes, I try.  I am in contact daily via snapchat (texts from D are sometimes authored by W) and I offer to help with homework daily (via iMessage or Hangout).  Working around W is awkward to say the least, but necessary bc W can't separate D's experience with me from hers.  Funny you should mention suspicion bc man has that been a thing.

Thank you for your support.

[once removed]

It is amazing how quickly the power dynamic shifts.  

given the high conflict nature of divorce, and the fact that you share children, i think its best to avoid falling into the trap of this line of thinking; i understand how gratifying it can be. power struggles are a remnant of the old relationship dynamics/issues. they cease when the relationship ends, and the situation youre in calls for a centered approached, one thats ultimately also in your best interest.

Working around W is awkward to say the least

whats this situation like? do you mean you share an office/work environment, or are you still living together?

[Long_term_dad]

given the high conflict nature of divorce, and the fact that you share children, i think its best to avoid falling into the trap of this line of thinking; i understand how gratifying it can be. power struggles are a remnant of the old relationship dynamics/issues. they cease when the relationship ends, and the situation youre in calls for a centered approached, one thats ultimately also in your best interest.

whats this situation like? do you mean you share an office/work environment, or are you still living together?

Hi once removed,

Just to clarify, I'm agnostic about relative power (ie I'm not celebrating or mourning it).  I just noticed the imbalance and the shift, but your point is taken.   The situation is we are physically but not yet legally separated (soon though).  She lives in the house with D, and I don't.  W is the BPD and as such dominates the emotional environment in the house.  D has a hard time communicating with me bc W will ask questions about what we discussed and or eavesdrop (D has told me), so we mostly only get to spend time when we go to the gym together or out for the occasional pizza.  She's a very busy student and imho has sought refuge in studies so these opportunities are relatively rare.  Even if I was present she'd likely be doing her homework or in her room but even so I would like that because I miss her and I know she misses me and just being there would be nice.  I have been staying in temporary places for a while (airBNB and another home out of state) so there's not been a place of mine where she can go, but this will change soon too.