Once black, always black?

[Chosen]

I know how the Workshops say that pwBPDs switch between the black and white extremes.  But it seems like once I'm on uBPDh's "black" side, I've never been switched back to white again.  It's been several years.  Not that I want to be painted white either, I prefer normal, but since there will be no normal, I'd rather be white than black.  Has anybody gone through years and years of being painted black, especially in a marriage?  How do you cope/ deal with it? 

It seems like everything I do/ say is wrong.  When I express myself, even though I don't think I'm expressing a negative opinion, and certainly not criticising him, he sees it as a personal insult and lashes out at me, which further cements his view that I'm a negative, complaining person, that I don't appreciate him, that I'm going to f*** up the family, as he always say.  When I express that I'm tired/ not feeling well, I'm a whiner (while he "just gets along with it"). 

It feels like I'm stuck in a rut- in a marriage you're supposed to be able to express yourself, be weak and not feel judged.  Instead, I'm slowly moving to the place where I can no longer be bothered to express myself (when I can help it) because a) I know my emotional need will never be satisfied, and b) to keep the peace.  I don't want to turn it into stonewalling, as I know it becomes a habit, then there's no hope for the marriage.  I think I'm still at the point where I wish to have meaningful communication with uBPDh, but am finding less and less hope of it ever happening.  How can you communicate when you're forever painted black, when whatever you express is, by default, bad?

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[Radcliff]

All of what you express resonated with me.  It felt like we cycled between black and medium gray, never to white.  Sometimes things would be going very well, but it was only when I was not expressing anything uncomfortable for her, and I never felt put on a pedestal.

Honestly, this is a tough situation, and I don't feel like I have a clean answer for you.  Maybe it would help us all to talk through an example.  Is there something that you may have tried to express to him, that you'd still like to express to him, that you can tell us about?

RC

[Chosen]

More often than not it's not something I'm deliberately expressing, but more like I'm speaking what's on my mind, a passing thought (without context), and he would interpret it as a complaint or a personal attack.

Like this morning, D was being slow and she would be getting to nursery late.  He was irritated and kept rushing her with increasing force.  I said something like "she's so little, we can only work on getting everything ready earlier from our side", and he went BALLISTIC.  Started to lash out at me, saying he has got everything ready, etc.  What I meant was just "there's little point in trying to rush a toddler, since she doesn't understand the concept of being late (I think it's an adult thing to want to be "on time"- toddlers don't know responsibility yet- she can't even tell the time!); all we can do is to make sure the things for her to go to nursery are ready in advance, then just let it be if we're still late".  But obviously as I was voicing out the passing thought I didn't say so much. 

The problem is then, do you go into JADE territory and try to explain to him what you really mean?  It would be meaningless; he's already raging, saying I'm never happy about anything he does, all I do is complain, I'm so negative, he's already doing everything blah blah blah.  But if you just "admit" to being negative, that you were complaining, then it would mean what he accuses you of is true.  But I guess none of it matters, as he's already got it in his head that I'm complaining and therefore he gets super defensive and rages at me. 

[once removed]

my mom does this a lot. ill be making conversation and she will perceive something i say as something im putting on, or expect from her.

remember that people with BPD traits are hypersensitive to perceived criticism, more so in times of stress.

so like with anyone, its a good idea to be mindful, and if there are certain communication habits that arent working, switch gears. i know in my case, when im around someone thats irritated, ill often say something to get them to be mindful or self aware, when its mostly me feeling anxious and i could otherwise just let them be irritated.

The problem is then, do you go into JADE territory and try to explain to him what you really mean? 

clarifying what you meant if how it was perceived is pretty off base, once (twice max) is reasonable, and can defuse things. with my mom ill say something like "mom, that wasnt a hint, i was just making conversation." with someone more sensitive, id probably soften it, apologize for not being clear, that i didnt mean to blame anyone. at that point, id probably let it go, and let them get back to baseline.

[Chosen]

If only "being mindful" is so easy... .especially when you're sleep-deprived and tired out of your mind.  Problem is, once he gets triggered by my non-mindful speech, he never gives me the benefit of doubt.  If I say it's a slip of tongue/ not what I meant, he will say that because I've said it, the damage is done and it means I subconsciously mean it.  And then he will continue to believe that I mean it, so no point in defending or clarifying my intention.

So yes I should be more careful with my speech, but sometimes now I don't bother with it at all- I just don't really say anything to him (and he has been avoiding me these few days, going out when I go home, and I'm really sad to say that it's actually been a relief- I can't deal with being super tired and having him going on and on about how terrible I am).  It helps to avoid further problems but does nothing to improve the relationship.  If two people aren't on speaking terms then how good/ sustainable can the relationship be?

[once removed]

If only "being mindful" is so easy... .

certainly, it isnt. neither do we want to take it to the point of walking on eggshells.

it doesnt sound like theres a lot of "damage control" you can do in these situations. sometimes there are other ways (humor worked well with my partner), and sometimes those ways are hit or miss.

It helps to avoid further problems but does nothing to improve the relationship.  If two people aren't on speaking terms then how good/ sustainable can the relationship be?

it happens. you try everything else, and you get exhausted, and staying away starts to feel like the most peaceful solution.

having said that, it can, over time, become an impasse. Gottman calls the fourth stage of relationship breakdown "Stonewalling":https://bpdfamily.com/content/your-relationship-breaking-down

has it been this way for a while?

[Chosen]

once removed, in my OP, I've mentioned that I don't want it to become stonewalling... .I know Gottman says it is the last straw of a relationship breakdown, and I don't want to go there.  It's not that I don't want to communicate with him... .I still crave that intimacy, but these days I'm so tired (physically mainly), and when you're tired you're not in the best place for conversation, so I don't try to say much because if he keeps going and breaking me down,  I may not be able to keep it together.  May snap back at him or something, which will NOT end well. 

In a way it's good that he's choosing to leave instead of berating me, as hopefully it helps him cool down.  You can't really cool down if you're constantly making negative comments on somebody else. 

But I don't really know what to do, going forward.  We've been stuck in a cycle of me triggering him, then him being angry with me, then him "forgiving" me, and things are normal for a while, then it repeats.  It seems like the only way to get out of this cycle is not to say anything meaningful, not to express anything to him at all... .just like how you won't get into any arguments with an acquaintance because you don't care enough about them to have meaningful conversation with them... .know what I mean?  Just exchange pleasantries and keep emotions and stuff to myself.  I've actually been expressing my emotions a lot less already, as every time I express anything negative it gets even worse for me (he will say I deserve it, that he feels as tired/ stressed/ etc, he will say I always complain, that he has done his best and I'm never happy). 

I guess, if you've got nothing nice to say... .don't say anything at all?

[hopefulbutlost17]

Hi Chosen,

I can relate to you and Radcliff.  Either I'm painted black or my ex and I somehow reach a gray area, but at times will quickly just go right in to black.  Since July, I have yet to pass the gray area in any situation.  I could cater to her and nothing.  I try to explain my thoughts to her and it's exactly how you described, either we are "complaining" or we make them feel like "crap" or "annoyed." Once their mind is set on something, it's difficult to help them see it differently. 

So, yes, I'm with you. Might as well keep my mouth shut to avoid any negative outcome.  it sucks...

I'm interested to know if there is a way to get out of the black/gray area. Or are we there forever?

[once removed]

have the two of you spoken yet?

[Chosen]

have the two of you spoken yet?

Me?  Yes we've kind of made up last night.  A few days of not speaking much, and I also try to not respond to certain things he say to me, like we should get a divorce, etc. (He says that whenever we fight) He said he was planning just to go away for the entire weekend to avoid me, but he ended up not having done it.  Somehow this time his response is less venomous than before.  More like he can't be bothered to speak to me, but it also means that he isn't trying to pick a fight, and therefore gives us both more time to calm down.  Which I think is much nicer than talking to death about what happened (what really happened?  I don't really know, and I don't want to go back and have him analyse everything I said, because I'll be led to JADE territory again).

But going forward, I don't really know how to express anything negative without triggering him, or is it even possible.  Most of the time I'm not even deliberately trying to say bad things about him, or complain or whatever... .which leads him to say that I do it because I'm unhappy and negative by nature... .