Took a video of her behavior this morning - 5

[defogging]

Just one thing I want to highlight -- we often talk about FOG (Fear, Obligation, and Guilt) as a set of cognitive distortions that can trigger distorted reactions from us. Here's a nice summary of this. Consider what you said here... .

There's a lot of Fear here ... .but it's fear of a future that you really can't know will happen. And it's one you are painting as dark as possible through another psychological process called catastrophizing.

What if the worst doesn't happen? What if you can (through the mechanisms for parental control given to you by a divorce decree) prevent the worst?

Yes, there's a lot of fear there.  I don't know if it's FOG or just "fear of the unknown" based on my observations of her behavior.  I think it's a safe assumption that if someone is trying to alienate your kids while they're married to you, it would likely get much worse if they fear you will take the kids away in a divorce scenario.

[Fian]

I would like to sum up skip's 3 choices:

1.  Plot a passive / peaceful exit - you choose a divorce
2.  Invest in rehabilitating the relationship - see below
3.  Continue on the current trajectory to doomsday - she chooses divorce if you don't give in first

If your goal is to remain in the marriage for the sake of the kids, only option 2 will allow that.  You want to tailor your actions in such a way that drama is reduced in the house, plus encourage the marriage in a positive direction.  There are no guarantees that doomsday won't arrive, but at least you are taking proactive steps to avoid it.

When it comes to the morning wake up routine, why not just visit each of your children at what should be the proper wake up time and let them know that mom will be coming in a few minutes to wake them up?  If they hate the wake up routine as much as you think, I think that would motivate them enough to get up on their own.  There may even be a positive in that they learn some extra responsibility at a young age - don't wait for mom to drag you out of bed.

[Enabler]

Fian,

Would this not be parental alienation behaviour? Encouraging the children to see their mother as a threat... .as dangerous?

Encouraging positive relationship behaviours would be taking initiatives, reducing conflicts and owning solutions rather than placing Mrs DF in the perpetrator position. Ideally this should be done bilaterally however in a situation where bilateral decision making is not possible due to communication breakdowns, it's far better to take unilateral ownership of situations to reduce stress and conflict points. In this particular situation there is a double-blind, conflict if he wakes them up, conflict if they stay in bed and everyone is late. DB as such needs to establish what is the healthy, loving and responsible thing to do which shows the rest of his family how to reduce conflict... .since staying in bed is least likely to ever reduce stress and conflict the rational choice has to be get them up earlier, and show her that the earlier start results in less conflict, lower stress and less dysregulation.

Unfortunately the downside to this is that this may be a task he is never able to shift over to his wife... .but that's the downside of being an emotional caretaker, staying for the kids and working on the marriage... .DF will be responsible for the heavy lifting. Behaviours are adopted but it takes some time of seeing, showing and proving and often critiquing... .and then eventually it ends up being referred to as something that was always her idea. When that point comes... .eat it, say nothing... .MOVE ON... .JOB DONE.

Enabler

[Fian]

I agree my approach is not ideal, but he is not painting her as the perpetrator.  He is just giving the children the choice to wake up earlier.  He shouldn't protect his wife from the consequences of her actions, if they see her as the attacker, that is on her.  As far as I can tell, this is the least drama approach of resolving the issue.  Maybe after a few weeks, if the kids are waking on their own he can tell his wife what he is doing and show her that things are working more smoothly, but to be honest, even then she probably wouldn't take that information in a positive way.

[Enabler]

Fian, you believe that DF should make the children responsible for managing their mothers emotions? Have I understood that correctly?

I would have thought that the better way would teach the children what a healthy executive function looks like, showing them what time management looks like, rather than a response to someone else's tendency to unleash hell-fire in response to their own lack of time-management skills.

... .I shall get up at 7 to leave for 8 because it takes me 1 hour to be ready in a calm and controlled manner... .

vs

... .I shall get up at 7 because if I don't mummy shouts at me, shouts at Daddy and then Mummy and Daddy might get a divorce... .

Enabler

[Notwendy]

I think that either decision - to divorce or to work on the marriage are difficult ones, each with possibly better outcomes and also possibly worse. If divorce isn't the best choice, then I agree that working on the relationship has to be the path to go. Even if divorce occurs- there is still going to be a relationship with the children's mother, and so investing in improving can only benefit the situation regardless of the outcome.

I think it helps to clarity what "improving " is. At the least, it is reducing conflict. I don't know if it will lead to better romantic feelings, maybe in time, but at the first step - it is to reduce conflict without being an enabler. Giving in and placating may work temporarily but they don't make a lasting change for the better and may make the behavior patterns worse in the long run.

Although thankfully the issues in my marriage were not as difficult as in my parents' marriage, we had created some similar patterns, with conflict, and me being an enabler and walking on eggshells. My first goal was to decrease the conflict, but not by doing what I had been doing, which was enabling, giving in to keep the peace. However, I also felt I had to do some of this to not upset the kids. The conflict was upsetting them. It was a matter of picking the battles most important, stop adding fuel to the drama and looking at my own behaviors ( these are the only things we really can change).

The Drama ( Karpman) triangle was a helpful model for me and I saw where taking victim role with H as persecutor wasn't effective to helping the marriage. In a similar manner, taking the video to show the wife was out of control made her the persecutor may have proven a point but it doesn't help the marriage. I also recognized that a pwBPD is in victim mode emotionally ( my own observations ) even when they are being hurtful to someone else and if I take victim mode myself, it adds fuel to the drama. To me, improving means not being on the right/wrong or good parents/bad parent path but looking at how to stay away from adding fuel to this triangle without being a doormat/enabler ( which is taking rescuer role)

I think I am the poster whose dad didn't stand up for her, so I will try to clarify this. My father did the best he could with a tough situation- and also he was a strong rescuer/enabler to my BPD mother. The drama triangle fit our family relationships. When BPD mom was upset about something - she became victim, dad became rescuer and whoever upset her was in persecutor role. I think my father did what he could to protect us as kids when we were little. He was a hands on parent - doing things like driving us to school, helped with homework, took us out on weekends- but he enabled my mother and her wishes prevailed. The not standing up for us kids was not about getting on the offensive with her, but his enabling her behavior.

First, I think one has to distinguish between enabling/not enabling and actually being on the offensive with someone. We also have to protect the kids. In the morning scenario- are there any ways to reduce the conflict without enabling or adding to it? This isn't an easy answer, but it is something to think about. When you intervene, stand up, and take a video, you enter the triangle as persecutor. Your wife's in victim mode. Is there a different way to do this?

[Notwendy]

Your kids are quite young and the two younger ones need assistance getting ready for school. The 8 year old can dress herself. How can you work with the morning situation?

I think just intervening and taking it over will invalidate your wife.

Assume she doesn't have the executive function to pull this off successfully. Also, she isn't going to admit this. It would bring her great shame. I believe she really wants to be a good mom and to be seen as a good mom.  That's key here and this is one reason why the video was hurtful to her.

Without being an enabler, or being the good guy  or bad guy, how can you work with this situation? There is a concept in teaching called scaffolding when teaching skills to children. It helps them to be successful while learning a new task without doing it for them. Your wife basically fails every morning. This is discouraging. Is there a way to have her be successful in increments? Breaking down tasks into parts can help with this.

Can you brainstorm a solution with her- together as a team? Honey, I'd really like your input on how we - together- can make morning better for the kids sounds a lot better than offering solutions for her and saying " just wake em up earlier". "the kids are really young and need help getting ready in the morning- but they will learn and get older- how can we help to teach them to do this?

What can your wife do that is helpful to them getting to school? Can she make the lunches, lay out their clothes in the evening? Let her have some input to the solution. It may take practice- she may not do it well, and so the kids might be late sometimes but if you are working towards a solution it may be worth it if it decreases conflict.

[Fian]

Fian, you believe that DF should make the children responsible for managing their mothers emotions? Have I understood that correctly?

No, the purpose is to reduce the trauma in the children's lives.  They don't like being woken up at DEFCON 1 every morning, crying because they can't move fast enough and mommy is mad at them.  Waking them up early gives them a little control over the situation.

Someone mentioned that young children can't dress themselves.  I know little about children, so if that is true that would limit the effectiveness of my proposal.  Even so, at least being awake before DEFCON1 starts might help them deal with it a little better, plus you might be able to do some tasks before they go to bed like laying out all their clothes for the next day.

[Bnonymous]

Hi defogging,

You're getting some great advice from Notwendy here.

The most important thing is to try to let go of any confrontational mentality of who is "good" and who is "bad," whose "fault" the situation is, who is to "blame" for it all. These are not helpful notions. It is more helpful to focus on what the issues are and what you can do to help improve specific issues and the overall dynamic. You're not going to get very far with doing that until you're ready and willing to drop the good-guy/bad-guy view.

There are a couple of things that jump out at me in your posts, which I'd like to draw your attention to:

Maybe this is part of the relationship I need to accept, that she isn't capable of the research and I need to do it for her so we can think through all the steps.

Perhaps I need to step up and make the decision for her, and schedule time for us to work out things. 

Here, you are determining what you think your wife ought to be doing, determining that she's not capable of doing it, and taking it upon yourself to do things for her and even to make decisions for her.

Firstly, this is likely to reinforce any doubts and insecurities that she has regarding her own capabilities, which, in turn, is likely to make situations like the morning routine much worse.

Secondly, your wife is likely to feel disrespected, invalidated, undermined, and overpowered. Then she is likely to kick back... .And the whole dysfunctional conflict situation will have its flames fanned.

Thirdly, what is the above modelling for your children? What is it teaching them about how people do and should relate to one another?

In a post in a earlier part of this thread, you said:

"They don't see the threats mom makes to the kids when they aren't doing the activity she wants them to be doing, it switches on a dime without rhyme or reason.  They don't see our kids' creativity being stifled because mom needs them to be "the best" at things that mom has chosen for them, without their input."

I have underlined the key phrases here. If you want to help your kids here, then you need to model alternative attitudes and alternative ways of relating to people. What you suggest above about how to approach your wife suggests that you are, instead, modelling exactly the same behaviours that you fear are damaging to your kids. Can you see this?

[defogging]

Lots to respond to here!  Interesting discussion, thanks for all your input.

Fian - The fatal flaw I see in your plan (in my experience with kids) is they'll take the path of least resistance.  It's hard to get kids to self-motivate in the morning most days, I don't think that skill is developed until later.  Usually mine would opt to stay in bed, given the choice.

Adding a little more to the morning routine discussion:

I've tried the following, with these results:
 - Reasoning with uBPDw that the kids need more time to get ready: got stonewalled, "they need more sleep"
 - Waking them up earlier on my own:  Various results; sometimes it's fine with everyone happy, sometimes it makes mom more angry, nowadays she watches me like a hawk in the morning and prevents me from going in their rooms.  If I push the issue, it just escalates her so I avoid that.  Sometimes uBPDw is preoccupied and I wake them up, give them a kiss on the head and a little backrub and say "hey, it's time to start waking up kiddo".
 - On days that dad drives them:  "I'm happy to take them, but I'm going to wake them up when I think they need to be up", I get them up earlier, everyone is happy, uBPDw doesn't typically object.
 - My current method is to allow uBPDw to wake them up when she wants.  With three kids there is always one that is not being managed by mom, so I focus on that kid and get them ready in a calm manner.  Once that kid is loaded, go to the next one that isn't with mom.  Not sure it's the best method, but it is working for now.  It's not intervening with uBPDw and the kids are generally calm by the time they're in the car.  If they are late, I let uBPDw deal with the consequences of that.  Some days the kids gripe to her about being late, eventually the school will make it clear that it's a problem.  Maybe these outside influences can elicit healthier behavior.

Making breakfast/lunches, etc:  This is all over the map.  Sometimes uBPDw gets up earlier than them and makes everything in advance.  Other times she sleeps until 15 minutes before they leave, demands they need eggs/pancakes for breakfast and is making that when they are still bed, at the time they should be heading out the door.  Other times she decides they just need a yogurt on the way to school.  I've tried to help in various ways - help them pack lunches, make them breakfast, nothing seems to change much because the next day it's a different rule book.  For instance - I've made them egg sandwiches to eat in the car and she shouts on the way out "we don't have time for that!"  I'm literally standing there with the bags in my hand and she just needs to grab them.  I have no idea how to hit a moving target.

Re: Divorce/stay together.  Let's shelve the discussion for now.  Christmas time is crazy time in our house, I'm not making any decisions until after the New Year at least.  If she surprises me with something, so be it.

[Fian]

" - Reasoning with uBPDw that the kids need more time to get ready: got stonewalled, "they need more sleep"
 - Waking them up earlier on my own:  Various results; sometimes it's fine with everyone happy, sometimes it makes mom more angry, nowadays she watches me like a hawk in the morning and prevents me from going in their rooms.  If I push the issue, it just escalates her so I avoid that.  Sometimes uBPDw is preoccupied and I wake them up, give them a kiss on the head and a little backrub and say "hey, it's time to start waking up kiddo"."

One thing to add here about the above approaches.  She does not have the right to veto you (personally, I come from a patriarchal mindset, so in my case I have a right to veto my wife - I am assuming that isn't the case in your marriage).  If an issue is important enough, you can insist on a change in behavior.  Whether she dysregulates or not is on her.  Your job in such a situation is to make sure that behavior on your side of the aisle is above reproach.

Having said this, it would be a stressor on your marriage.  You want to limit those.  You have to decide if this is a hill you want to die on.  But there will be times when to protect your children you will need to take a stand.  Decide those not in the heat of the moment, but after careful planning.  In this case, it sounds like you have a system that you think is working so this is probably not in that category.

[defogging]

Skip asked me to summarize the thread so I'm going to give it my best shot.  (How do you summarize 100 posts?)   

I'll keep it short and sweet.

First of all, THANK YOU to everyone on here.  Your support and different viewpoints on these recent events was eye-opening.

The video incident:  Still not sure what I think about it.  Seems the board has widely split opinions.  Maybe it was a terrible idea and irreparably damaged our relationship, or maybe it helped to get my family to see what is happening in our house.  I can't say I regret it, at the very least I learned a lot from you all in the last week.  FWIW, the situation in our house has "normalized" for now so I don't see any long term damage.

Good guy vs. bad guy framing:  I have to admit I was framing the relationship this way, at least to a certain extent, and I need to work on that.

Executive function:  The more I think about this, it explains a lot about the daily happenings in our relationship.  A lot of the things she does that I have viewed as controlling may just be due to this.  Poor communication and then getting mad at me when I didn't do something, the inability to complete daily tasks where I have to step in and do it for her, her grocery shopping and not getting anything I wrote on the list, not being able to plan ahead regarding the morning routine, etc.  Whether I'm right or wrong in connecting these things to executive function it will be helpful to frame them that way, rather than getting frustrated/angry.

I know I need to continue to grow.  I'm in a much better place than I was a year ago, but it's clear I'm not where I need to be yet.

As far as our long term outlook - I would guess there will be a divorce at some point, but I don't know when or how it will happen.  I just know this is a difficult and unfulfilling relationship, and I don't see much hope for a significant improvement.

[once removed]

Good guy vs. bad guy framing:  I have to admit I was framing the relationship this way, at least to a certain extent, and I need to work on that.

when we move out of this mindset, conflict can become instinctively easier to resolve.

[formflier]

How did the finance talk go?

FF

[formflier]

I suspect that there are likely several steps, and likely some missteps to making the morning routine better.  There certainly have been for me.

Remember what is the core issue here.  Turbulent feelings inside your wife.  While you are not "responsible" for them, you do affect them.  Keep those two things separate... .then be pragmatic and try some things.

I've had the benefit of  PhD level psychologist advising me for several years now.  The morning routing in our house sounded similar.  Chaos.  Details don't matter... .it was chaos.

P and I figured that since my wife is a touch person, (love languages) we would use that to affect her feelings and outlook in a positive way.

I'm a morning person, my wife is not.  I would usually pop out of bed and start doing things.  Wife was erratic and there was plenty of time for her to cause chaos.

So... .I started staying in bed and snuggling.  Nothing sexual.  For instance.  This morning I snuggled with her for 40 minutes.  She got out of bed at the absolute last minute, to get dressed, grab a bite and get out the door.

No time for talks, Bible studies, family prayer time or any of the things were correlated with conflict before.

Do I like this morning routine.   No... .not really.  Has the amount of conflict gone way down.  Undeniably.

Near as we can figure, morning is a source of rumination and anxiety for my wife.  By offering lots of snuggle, closeness and warmness that helps calm things.

There are some mornings she rejects it... .and I don't react question or any of that.  Just move on with the day.

I suppose once or twice a month there is some sort of outburst at kids failures in the morning.  It used to be several times a week.

I'm not suggesting that snuggling is the answer for DF.  I AM suggesting that he knows his wife best and should think deeply about things that result in calmness... .let ideas flow from there.

FF

[Skip]

Good advice.

[defogging]

I figure I have two priorities when it comes to the morning routine:

1.  Kids' safety - make sure they are buckled into car seats before uBPDw is backing car up.  This is the most important thing, and is pretty much taken care of with my current method of not engaging in the chaos and calmly getting the kids ready.
2.  Reducing the mental impact of the chaos on the kids - Much harder to accomplish, uBPDw finds new ways to create chaos no matter my efforts.  All I can do is be the calm parent and not engage, that way the kids have at least one parent they know is consistent. 

I think the morning routine will resolve itself over time, as usually happens with issues in our house.  As the kids get older and more self-sufficient getting them in the car will get easier, and external factors will provide motivation to make it to school on time.  I look back and remember other points of contention that have now gone away and figure it will happen with this issue as well.

[formflier]

Consider for a minute priority number 2. 

On the face of it, it seems like a worthy thing.  Consider the focus.  It seems to put you in a position of cleaning up the "mess" your wife is making with the kids mental states.

If you took the energy/effort "spent" on cleanup and instead focused on ways you may affect your wife's propensity to "make messes", do you think the "bottom line result" might be better?

Also... .I want to challenge you to find time today to reflect on things that generally calm your wife.  Find an idea or two there and we can help you examine how to move forward.

   

This stuff isn't easy... .

FF

[Notwendy]

I'm not a  morning person, but I get up to do what I need to do. Doing as much preparation as possible the night before helps- breakfast, lunches prepared an in the fridge, clothing for the next day planned, car keys and purse located near the door, coats on a coat rack near door, books, supplies packed and near the door.

You are correct that as the kids get older, they are able to participate more in getting to school on time. There is a lot of incentive. By high school- too many tardies gets detention. Now that is motivation!

It's a double edge sword with helping your wife. Too much helping feels invalidating to her. If she doesn't want you to drive it could be because she wants to take on this task of being the mom, even if she isn't good at it at the moment. But both she and the kids can grow into this task.

My BPD mom is low functioning and as we kids got older, we took on more of the tasks for her. I think it both helped and made her feel not needed. Usually if I asked her to do something for me, it would trigger her, or she wouldn't do it. But once, she was visiting and I had my hands full with my small kids and asked her to make sandwiches for them. She got right to it, and was beaming- she felt needed. It was a noticeable change from the usual dynamics between us.

She has established herself as neighborhood "grandma" to the kids in her neighborhood but has little responsibility beyond serving them cookies when they visit. She's created the impression that she is an experienced mother. She wants people to see her that way. The families with small kids don't know us or anything about what went on with us. He BPD is a closely guarded family secret and she holds it together with people who are not immediate family and she is wonderful to the neighbors. She didn't do much hands on parenting when raising us, but needs to be perceived as if she did. I wonder if things could have been different for her if we knew then what we know about BPD.

Your wife wants to be seen as a competent mom, and must also be frustrated when she isn't able to pull it off in the mornings. Are there ways to help with this? I know the first priority is protecting the kids- don't stop doing that- but if your wife is calmer and feels some success in the morning, it might be win- win for all.

[defogging]

I think the discussion of the morning routine has been beaten to death in the last week, so I don't want to engage in another lengthy discussion on it.

I'll just clarify one thing about my point #2.  What I mean is that uBPDw has a tendency to verbally instigate until I respond, then an argument escalates.  If I can ignore the pokes, this creates a calmer situation for the kids in the morning.  It's not ideal, but one parent griping at the other is better than two parents yelling at each other.

My post was meant to convey that I have a solution that I think is working for now.  The morning routine will likely never be perfect but we'll make it the best we can.

[formflier]

 I know the first priority is protecting the kids- don't stop doing that- but if your wife is calmer and feels some success in the morning, it might be win- win for all.

Very important to define what things the kids need to be protected from.  Draw the line... then be consistent.

For me I've adopted the "stance" that I do absolutely zero protecting up the "the line" at which point I " go to the mat" (loosing isn't an option).

Generally... .this is something like a public rant about things children simply shouldn't hear.  At which point I stand, send kids to their rooms and tell them to close the door.

The kids don't want to see it... .so they are generally ok with doing this.  We have  large family so it creates a conundrum for my wife.  Is she going to go from room to room and drag kids back out?

She generally stands in place... the rant blows itself out... .then life goes on.  Removing the audience does wonders.

It appears that once she understood she wouldn't have an audience, the payoff went down... .so these types of rages are now pretty rare.

The point of all this:  Drawing the line is important.  Figure that out first.

FF

[formflier]

so I don't want to engage in another lengthy discussion on it.
 

Good... .30 seconds or less should be your goal.

Focus it in the moment, be specific.  Give two concrete things, both of which move kids closer to being out the door.

Would you rather me help kids with breakfast or getting in and out of bathroom?

FF

[formflier]

I'm not.  

Who is she playing it with? 

FF

[Notwendy]

I think he means protecting the kids from her backing up in the driveway- making sure they are strapped in their seats before she moves the car.

I'd be concerned about her driving - late and upset- and rushing to school.

When it comes to kids' safety, who is driving them is a key consideration. A dysregulated parent may not be safe.

[AskingWhy]

Sometimes the initiation of argument is an invitation into a familiar pattern for both spouses. The routine of the interchange is somehow more comfortable than the discomfort of the moment.

I don't think the moving issue is going to stop. From what I have observed, there is an external focus for the reason for internal discomfort. The pwBPD thinks that a solution to this issue is going to be the solution for the internal discomfort. Once the solution has been achieved, the discomfort remains, and so there continues to be an external reason. Moving may not be the problem but the projection of the problem. 

Logic doesn't address feelings. Her feelings feel like facts to her and she may articulate this with facts " can we afford the prime rib? " but responding with facts is invalidating as it doesn't address the feeling behind it. We can't read minds but you have to try to be a detective to hear what is going on when she says these things.

The sense of fairness can be  different. With the prime rib and the vegetarian family on her side, I get a sense that the "unfair" is at play. What is the source of her repeatedly bringing it up?

I have heard of this tactic as "badger and blame."  The partner will initiate an argument to the point where the non will engage in anger.  Then the pwBPD will feel free to fight. 

This happened to me a few days ago.  I feel foolish because I should have known better.  My uBPD/uNPD H egged me into it.  I should have seen it and not engaged.

[Enabler]

Then the pwBPD will feel free to fight. 

Or another way this can play out is that the pwBPD will instantly switch to victim. Ironically it's a mechanism they use to get to (cognitively justify) the emotional state they feel most comfortable in, which typically is that of a victim. In my W's case her whole persona and body language changes as soon as she gets the reaction of anger she was looking for from me. The master stroke is to not supply that emotional 'out'... .that emotional 'rescue'. In essence it is an emotional rescue, by supplying anger you are supplying them a justification for her original irrational feelings (of anger/fear/disappointment/abandonment)... .remove that response and suddenly the pwBPD is left hanging, having no way of passing on the pain to someone else.