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Skills we were never taught
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A 3 Minute Lesson
on Ending Conflict
Communication Skills-
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Author Topic: Having THE TALK with 12 y o son  (Read 671 times)
JoeBPD81
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« on: January 17, 2019, 08:35:39 AM »

My BPD partner asked me to have the talk with her son, 12 years old. We've been living together for 3 years, and I'm his father figure. Although my opinions in parenting are not taken into account.

Well, some months back, the kid started to show sexual behavior, somewhat disturbing:

He makes sexual noises and movements out of the blue (For example, when the TV goes to commertials between cartoons).
You sit next to him in the coach and he would rub himself against you, like a dog. Or just the face, like a cat, but with his mouth open and the face is one of sexual pleasure.
He would lick the soulder or arm of whoever is close.
He does pelvic movements when hugging relatives, and rub the chest of men and women alike. (When it's a woman, he'll say it was an accident).
He calls us, his parents, pretty and sexy, with a voice full of... .Well, in a sexual tone, it's hard to describe in words.
He has his eyes half closed and makes a kissy mouth to his mother, saying "mmmmm".

This is constant, and it's very hard not to react with rage.

His brother, 7, immitates this even though he doesn't understand.

Both have their hands inside their pants all the time. Until we tell them they can't be doing that around people.

S12 is always making up games when S7 has to be on top of him, or searching thigs that he has hidden trough his body... .
He's constantly rubbing the little kid's face, and the little kid is fed up, and we are too. He seems to be unable to go from point A to point B without going to touch his little brother's face first. The kid is reading, or eating, or playing, and there's his brother's hand all over his eyes, and mouth and nose... .Maybe a 100 times a day.

All that among other things.

We are very worried and alarmed, and tired.

My GF is a rape victim, and she was abused as a child. So all this behavior give her panic. We are not very affectionate in front of the kids (or elsewhere), and we don't act in a sexual way anywhere close to them.

If we kiss each other lightly, even in the forehead, or the cheak, the kids would go "OOHHHh wow! making out making ouuut!" Same if they see a kiss in movies. If we are behind a close door, the older kid knocks and says "You're making out, uuuhhh, we know you are... ."

Their mom has told them that all those comments make her not being close to me, and also that they trully hurt her, and make her sad. Also, that the sexual noises and movements, and comments (talking to her like he was putting the moves on her) make her so mad that she loses her patience. She ends up crying every other day. Then he promisses he's gonna stop, and ten minutes later he's doing it again.

But it's not happening less, but more and more. We have no period of rest, that we can gather patience again. So when S12 wants a hug, we are already mad for something he has done 2 minutes ago. And he wants huggs all the time. I can't finish a meal without him hugging my head twice at the table. So he gets a lot of rejection. 

He has openly admited he does all this because he's mad at us, or to change the subject when we are lecturing him.

He also wants a hug when we ask him to do anything. Instead of doing it. We tell him "Hey, now it's your turn to take a shower" He gets up and hugs all three of us, in turns, and then he sits down again. If we say "hello? now the shower is free... ." He just says "Noo", or "I'm not gonna shower, I don't care".

I'm ranting... .we end up, the 3 of us full of rejection towards him, and he has no remorse at all.

Any advice, insight or whatever will be much appreciated.

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« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2019, 01:59:03 PM »

Hi JoeBPD81, and welcome to the Son/Daughter board  Welcome new member (click to insert in post)

I'm so sorry you're dealing with this behavior from your BPD partner's son but I'm glad you came here seeking support.

The behavior described is disturbing, indeed. I don't mean to alarm you but it's been said that when children are behaving sexually, it's sometimes because they are being sexually abused.

That said, 12 is the age of budding sexuality and it could just be that he needs help understanding what is and isn't appropriate behavior, firm boundaries with consequences. In this day and age, it's a real concern that he could be accused of sexual assault if he behaves this way at school or elsewhere.

I think you'd be wise to get some professional help with this subject so that you can get to the root of the problem.

What do you think?

~ OH
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« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2019, 02:38:43 PM »

Hi joe dear friend

I’ve looked you up from time to time wondering how you are getting on. I find the other boards too scary for little old me. Of course they’re not, it’s like you settle to one place and it feels comfortable. You on the other hand have a double whammy so I know you pop up on different boards.

I’ve two sons but have never experienced what you’re going through there. I’m sorry I’m not much help, their sexual development was pretty normal but I can lend an ear. Your step sons behaviour seems way off and I can honestly appreciate how worried and tired you all are. Your gf must feel so emotional and it must be a real challenge to cope with.

Do these behaviours spill over into his school life? I think it may reassure you to know if they haven’t. I wonder if staff have any concerns or seen any changes in his behaviour?  

Im struggling to think of what to say to you to support you. I don’t know how things have changed for you all since I last posted to you. It seems so long ago. You still distant from your own family? Are the boys father and grandparents involved?

Joe, sometimes when we are deep in the chaos and struggling to just get through the day we can’t see the bigger picture. If it’s not working then a change of approach is needed. I get the impression you’ve such a tight little family struggling on your own without much support. If that’s the case, I say look outwards, reach out for professional help and more support. Put your energy there.

Hugs
LP


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« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2019, 04:41:28 PM »

Hi JoeBPD81

So sorry to hear of your concerns regarding your gf’s 12 year old son, and quite rightly you are worried about it, not knowing the best way to handle it. It certainly can be difficult. Lollypop makes a good point about checking with his school to see whether his behaviour has been noticed there.

It sounds like he isn’t aware of social propriety. Some people who are on the autism spectrum can exhibit such behaviours. I am not suggesting that is the case here but I just thought that it might be worth a mention.

FB x
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« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2019, 03:30:38 AM »

Thanks everyone for your kind words.

Thank God, he behaves at school and in public, he's very formal when we meet with my family, they see he's not very emphatic, and he has no shame regarding selfishness. For example, we go to a birthday party and he ask the birthday kid to change the activity that kid chose, to one he wants. Or he asks for a second piece of cake while everyone is still getting their first. The problem is that he doesn't asks once, he can't stop insisting until he gets what he wants or he gets so frustrated he has to leave. But not that sexual behavior.

We are in a close relationship with the school. Their teachers, nurse and councelor. He's going to therapy outside school too, and to a workshop for dealing with emotions that the councelor recommended. I know his classmates are more mature and they are starting to joke with sex stuff. They told him "there is something on the internet very scary, don't ever look for it, it's called gay porn". He says he hasn't seen anything, but that he is very scared about it, about what it might be. He lies constantly about everything, so we don't know what to believe, ever.

My GF was concerned about a man that worked in his old school, when he was 5-6, it was a gardener, and he would take him to his shed to show him his tools and seem too interested in the kid. I wasn't in the picture then, so I only know this by their testimony. It was never clarified. We try to ask him in different ways if someone was inappropriate with him, and he says no. My GF is also concerned that he could have seen us or heard us having sex when he was younger (and we were active). But we were always very careful about it. And nothing he says points to that. Also , as he has no shame asking about private stuff, he would just say it.

We seek counceling most of all because he is unhappy, and very quick to violence, mostly towards his brother. He's very unmotivated about school and he's always trying to distract himself from thinking. They have this "insight" program at school, where they are introduced to self knowledge, relaxation, meditation... .And he hates it like they were burning him with red hot iron.

When you ask him why does he need to touch his brother's face, he draws a blank. He waits until he tries to change the subject. Same with any question about his behavior.

I digress. We haven't mentioned this sexual stuff to the councelor yet, because it gives him a lot of shame that they would know. And we're giving him a lot of chances to stop by himself.

I'll write more later.
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« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2019, 07:13:06 AM »

Hey JoeBPD81,

Can you see BPDisms here? I can.

Is sexualising everything just a maladapted behaviour to deal with his uncontrollable emotions... .namely the discomfort of you disciplining him. His way of dealing with anxiety? When you tell a kid off or give them instruction they often fidget and squirm whether they are standing or sitting. The sexualisation freaks you out and distracts you from the purpose of telling him off or instructing him  about something he doesn't want to listen to. My D's (D5 and D10) put their fingers in their ears and repeat "Stop talking, stop talking" until you go away, as though alarm bells are going off in their head.

My D10 also wants to touch D5 all the time and struggles to realise when D5 wants her to stop, vs D10 berating D8 for no apparent reason. She's painted D5 White and D8 Black with D8 very much being her whipping post for any negative emotion she feels. When she's emotionally engulfed one way or another she lurches to either D5 or D8 depending on whether it is a positive or negative emotion.

BPD is commonly multi generational owing to the odd and confusing emotional expression of the parent resulting in the transmission of the disorder to the child, which in turns cause them to express emotions in a confusing way to their own children... .and so on and so on.

Yes it could be something else but given the other things you describe such as aggression, lack of empathy and odd behaviour there's additional tie in's. He only has limited tools in his tool box at the moment due to age and relative freedom from parental control.

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« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2019, 07:56:15 AM »

Our family situation hasn't changed much, Lollypop and I believe it's part of the problem: the kids feel that our little corner of reality is another world, and they can behave differently. My GF is super nice with strangers, but she can be nasty with me, and the kids see her crying, and very mad.

 I talk to my family, but they don't know where to start, it is easier to believe that mental illness doesn't exist than trying to understand it. I can't blame them, knowing more, doesn't stop me from being lost.

We look into the autistic spectrum. We believe my GF has Asperger's, she fits all the pointers. It's a complicated diagnosis as she was also abused, invalidated, abandoned, then battered as a wife... .So she can fit Asperger's and also have BPD. And she's anorexic on top of all.

The kids bio dad is a classic Narcisistic PD, he denies all reality that doesn't fill his views. He had also a dificult childhood. And his mother was schizophrenic. My GF's family is also full of people with mental illness, even criminals and substance abusers, several generations back. So the kids have a very unlucky genetic pool as background. So we don't discard anything. And my GF fells very guilty about having brought them to this world to suffer.

She's used to unemphatic people, but to me, it's a shock how the kids disregard anything other than their own desires, and when explained, they don't show any shame or remorse. I know most kids are, to a point, selfish, but I've delat with many kids and these ones shock me. And they can't stand to see the other brother getting something good (mainly the older one can't) so they fight constantly about everything.

OK so, my GF talked to him yesterday after the emotional workshop. And she found out that a kid in school is making fun of him, because he is so naive compared to other kids his age. And this kid is telling him things about sex, and even rape. Our son had a lot of doubts and he was appaled when he understood the noises he's making (mimicking this other kid) were sex noises and basicly, what sex is. He repeats this behavior because he wants to fit in with the kids at school, but at the same time, he feels bad because he doesn't understand (He has a very hard time admiting when he doesn't understand or know something, even with us, so with other kids he doesn't want to show weakness). It was a long and producctive talk, and we expect him to come to us with more questions when he feels ready to do so.

After yesterday's talk, this morning my GF was coughing, and I put my hand on her back. He still said "Ohh, Joe's hugging mom" with the voice we are used to. And my GF was like "With all we talked yesterday you do this? Don't ever touch me! any of you 3!"" So it's gonna take time, even if he understands better.

We'll see.

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« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2019, 02:54:10 PM »

children dont automatically know sexual boundaries, whats appropriate, whats inappropriate. they experiment. they mimic.

i dont think theres anything here that is particularly disturbing or alarming, in context. ive read much worse, even in the course of normal sexual development.

having said that, things can go from bad to worse without structure and boundaries, or with shame and rejection. its good that he knows to keep things in check at school; thats promising.

education and good role modeling is really his friend here. both you and mom are in the strongest position to influence his behavior.

do you intend to have the talk? what do you intend to say?
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« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2019, 04:04:21 AM »

Hi joe

So you’ve got an explanation for his sexual behaviours from him. This could be true and of course it might also look somewhat different in reality. The positive thing is that he opened up rather than closing down. My son is a quiet BPD and I always reacted so he learnt to tell me what I wanted to hear to shut me up. I also validated the invalid most of the time.

Raising kids is tricky because they grow beyond the person we raised. Lying is part of that because “not being found out” is their biggest priority.

[quotet]hey don't show any shame or remorse[/quote]

Do you think the root of your concern is the lack of empathy? That if everybody was a little more kinder to each other things would improve? If so, this is something you both could focus on maybe.

Excerpt
We haven't mentioned this sexual stuff to the councelor yet, because it gives him a lot of shame that they would know. And we're giving him a lot of chances to stop by himself.

The counsellor should be professional and skilled enough to deal with this issue in such a way that your son doesn’t feel that shame. That’s their job. You say it’s about giving your son chances to repair/modify his behaviour.  Ok but please remember that If something’s not working, then a change of approach is needed.

LP







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« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2019, 05:32:44 PM »

Hi joe

I’m sorry if I came over a bit preachy! I deleted a couple of paragraphs and lost my flow.

Hugs
LP
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« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2019, 07:05:39 AM »


i dont think theres anything here that is particularly disturbing or alarming, in context. ive read much worse, even in the course of normal sexual development.


Well, that's invalidating... .:  

I know reading about it is not the same as experiencing it. It's all the time, it's not something he does ocasionally, is how he behaves 24/7, and he does it until bringing his mother to tears, several times a day.

In our time, we would get a smack on the face for doing half of one of those things, and we would stop, even if we didn't understand. As a kid, even if I did things (or even think) in private, I was ashamed and I thought I had to tell everything to the priest in confession, so there was a lot of guilt and shame. Today it is the opposite. There has to be some middle ground.

I'm not that relligious any more. But we both have Christian values, and the school is Catholic. I think they would benefit from the structure of religion, but he's very rebellious and disrespectful about it. The Pope comes on TV, and I explain who is he and that I want to listen to the words he's saying, and he screams "ass, ass, ass!... .The Pope is ___!" He does the same if w ewant to hear a singer that mom says she sings beautifully: "ass, ass, ass! She sings like crap and she's ugly as hell". Even if we were all in harmony in that moment. He doesn't stand that we show respect for something or someone.

If someone in the subway did those (sexual) things to me, it would be very disturbing, and a crime. Having your own kid behaving sexually towards you, it's really very very disturbing. He's the size of a young adult, he's not a toddler. I'm not disturbed or alarmed thinking he's gonna be a pervert or a rapist in the future, I'm disturbed to the bone by the actions of today.

The model is one of scarce physical contact between his parent figures. We react with a patient,  loving response, once, twice, trice... .then firm, and serious... .but after several times, we can't hide the rejection, deception... .this causes us. We know it's not good, but we have no time to gather patience between actions. We say, for example: " Go to your room to think 10 minutes, and let us finish fixing lunch" he goes (sometimes, usually he says "NO!" with a 3 year old voice) and next time you turn around 5 seconds later, he's there. Or 5 seconds later, the little one is crying because he kicked him, broke/stole him a toy, or something of the sort. I basically can't go pee without something happening.

The school thing is promising, yeah, but the younger one has alraady got in trouble for copying his brother's behavior at school.

I pray every night for more patience and love for these kids, because I end up mad every night, and I'm known to have infinite patience. This kid is the person who treats me worse than anyone in my life has, and he treats his mom and brother worse than me. At home we only have peace when he's not around. And day after day after day (years now), it's hard not to feel a lot of resentment towards him, even as I understand it's not his fault, and as I know he's suffering himself.

The young one is the poster child for ADHD, he's like the tasmanian devil cartoon, with him we already have to be alert all the time so he doesn't hurt himself by accident, holding things he knocks down, cleaning spills and messes, and stoping him from grabbing a hot pan, or something similar. He doesn't learn when he hurts himself, so everyday is the same. However, he's 400% calmer when his brother is not around.

Well, I'm not asking anything in particular, just blowing off some steam, I guess. Thanks guys.
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« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2019, 04:53:16 PM »

Well, that's invalidating... .:  

it was.

i think what i was trying to say is that puberty and sexual development are crazy things. children will do a whole host of behaviors that may or may not last, may or may not become something more. i did a bad job of saying that, and i apologize.

Excerpt
In our time, we would get a smack on the face for doing half of one of those things, and we would stop, even if we didn't understand. As a kid, even if I did things (or even think) in private, I was ashamed and I thought I had to tell everything to the priest in confession, so there was a lot of guilt and shame. Today it is the opposite. There has to be some middle ground.

i think we agree that a smack in the face isnt the solution. theres no structure, no positive reinforcement behind that. kids need boundaries, structure, a sense of societal norms and what is appropriate, and when. they dont always color inside the lines so to speak. this may or may not be more than that. its hard to say. what is obvious is that it causes a lot of trouble at home, and causes you and your family a lot of stress.

The Pope comes on TV, and I explain who is he and that I want to listen to the words he's saying, and he screams "ass, ass, ass!... .The Pope is ___!" He does the same if w ewant to hear a singer that mom says she sings beautifully: "ass, ass, ass! She sings like crap and she's ugly as hell". Even if we were all in harmony in that moment. He doesn't stand that we show respect for something or someone.
nks guys.

what do you think is behind this? is it jealousy? is it an anti authority attitude? something else?
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« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2019, 03:44:14 AM »

what do you think is behind this? is it jealousy? is it an anti authority attitude? something else?
I wish I knew... .

Maybe it's a crazy thought, but it seems like "respect" is a concept so strange for him, that it makes him extremelly uncomfortable when we show it.

We sometime praise his friends, the ones that pose a good example, and he's OK with that. He's not OK with us saying anything good about his brother, he needs to trash it. He's very open about his jealousy towards him and constantly says he wishes his brother was never born or that he would die, with him present. So envy and jealousy are powerful motivators in his life.

He only listens to authority when he fears the person, as in his grandmother, his biological dad, teachers that can punish him, or that have bad temper.

We see the little one learning things and maturing, and the older is each year behaving in a more immature way. At the same time, he wants to be treated as an adult for some things, and as a baby for others. But he has no interest in growing up, nor in doing anything good, I mean improving himself, bettering himself. He gets in videogames the concept of gaining experience and doing thigs so your character is better, but in real life, he doesn't want to do anything. Tasks undone keep piling up, and he needs more and more distractions so the guilt and stress doesn't catch up to him.
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« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2019, 04:59:28 AM »

We see the little one learning things and maturing, and the older is each year behaving in a more immature way. At the same time, he wants to be treated as an adult for some things, and as a baby for others. But he has no interest in growing up, nor in doing anything good, I mean improving himself, bettering himself. He gets in videogames the concept of gaining experience and doing thigs so your character is better, but in real life, he doesn't want to do anything. Tasks undone keep piling up, and he needs more and more distractions so the guilt and stress doesn't catch up to him.

Can you take your thoughts about learning and maturing to a higher level... .the old 30k ft view. I suggest you look at things in the sense of positive and negative rewards/emotions rather than adult/childish things... .more's the point, he seeks the most emotionally gratifying route and has not been taught that there are rewards for doing things that are emotionally painful. e.g.

- Cleaning your room - is annoying, boring and involves emotionally separating with things when you throw them away... .if you're emotionally sensitive you'd be alarmed if you were able to truly empathise. The rewards which he cannot see because it involves getting through the emotional pain of cleaning the room is that you can find things and it results in long term lower stress.

- Not lying - means that you have to suffer from guilt and shame when you inevitably mess up... .everyone messes up. Guilt and shame are emotionally (and physically) painful. Since he has a low tolerance for emotional distress that pain has to be avoided, thus he lies. Getting through the pain of guilt and shame by telling the truth results in people having a greater amount of trust, increasing your integrity and likely to bring you closer to others... .he's unable to experience this utopia because he's unable to get through the pain of guilt and shame.

The list goes on and on... .'we' are desensitized to the small emotional pain that we experience. I implore you to re-sensitise yourself to emotional pain to experience the points which he is likely to feel intolerable. Although on the surface he maybe looking to be treated like and adult on some levels and a child on another, I reckon the positive/negative emotional pain model may be a better fit. Being treated like an adult opens a whole universe of positive emotional rewards... .but also a whole universe of negative ones. My guess is that he's looking to achieve the positive emotions whilst avoiding the negatives.

Is there a way that you can package the 2 up such that he receives a positive reward ONLY once he has completed and emotionally negative one. You can go out only if you clean your room. You can have $5 if you clean my car. You get to play video games only when you've done your homework. Plus he ONLY gets the positive if he chews through the negative. No cake and eat it.

I guess he's had a pretty chaotic set of messages coming from his father and his mum, he's lost faith in adults being able to give him a consistent message... .probably rightly so. It's time to stand your ground and put a container around him... .and that might mean an electric fence which causes emotional pain... .but you're his parents not his best mate.

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« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2019, 05:32:20 AM »

Thanks Enabler,

I absolutely agree with everything you said.

I'm lost because some minutes I'm the father, and the next I'm the landlord, or an unwanted visit.

If I disagree with something, I'm out of the circle. I'm not family. Or worse, I'm an enemy of the family.

Even when I agree, it goes like this:

Mom: You can't play any videogame until you've had a shower.
Kid asks every 5 minutes for videogames, as if he just had thought about it out of the blue. Mom holds her ground.

Then the kids asks me if he can play a videgame. I ask if he had finished the shower, as mom asked. Then Mom says : "God, you are an ashole with the kid", and gives him the videogame. AND she's mad at me for 2 days.

We've talked a lot about "comando parenting": get rid of every distraction, and start giving him things only when he does his part. She's told him a lot of times "tomorrow your room will be empty". And this never happens.

If any of the kids go through any emotional pain, or dissapointment, she panics and gives them whatever to stop that. She fells very guilty and compassionate towards them.

As you said, I think it is part of learning to go through some pain. Pain, dissappointment, frustration... .It's not nice, but we need them to grow, I think.
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« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2019, 06:32:24 AM »

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA EUREKA MOMENT!

Okay, this is HUGE info... .I've been there done that.

This is Karpman Triangle territory

Okay, your BPD W works with the same metrics as your Son, she is actually likely the cause (in part) of your sons general dysfunction. The same dynamic exists with my D5. From what I understand, our job as parents is to manage the transition of our children from baby to Adults, they do most of the leg work, basically we have to provide them an age appropriate container which ultimately makes them feel safe... .too small and you battle constantly and they ignore you, too large and they seek to find the security of the edges... .they find boundaries and test them. Your W puts up boundaries (fences) made of paper. She tries to defend them but cannot tolerate the emotional pain of "being the bad guy". So, she comes up with huge unattainable 'threats' such as emptying his room and then rolls over as soon as any pressure is exerted on the proverbial fence. Son knows this and is rewarded by not only misbehaving but, the little shot of dopamine he gets when he gets away with no actual punishment. He gets his cake and eats it.

Along comes you... .you get boundaries and you get that threats are nothing if you are not prepared to follow through. So, you rescue your W by policing her boundaries for her... .you're her henchman. In your eyes you're doing the right thing... .in your W you are persecuting you step son... .you slide to persecutor and your step son is victim, then your W rescues your son by attacking you. In your mind your W is attacking you (persecutor) and you are the ultimate victim as you just stepped in to help her.

Read this:

https://www.lynneforrest.com/articles/2008/06/the-faces-of-victim/

You're all victims, some real, some perceived and some self inflicted.

The dynamic will not change without the involvement of your W realising what she is doing OR, you having the strength of character to know that what you are doing IS NOT bad parenting, it is GOOD parenting. Your step son likely has zero respect for the boundaries that you put up as they are intermittently reinforced and he is almost incentivised to test them as they are typically weak. One way that you could look to change this or at least highlight it is maybe suggest going on a parenting course TOGETHER. I have no doubts that this topic is at the centre of most of the courses as soo many parents intermittently reinforce rules/boundaries/punishment possibly because they can't cope with being the bad guy and think it's 'wrong' to cause your kids distress. You fall into dangerous territory for your relationship with W when you go down the latter route as she will likely see you as 'bad' or abusive towards her and the kids. This is especially tricky as you are step father.

What's actually causing your kids distress is the fact that they have not been given age appropriate boundaries for so long that when boundaries are erected and defended efficiently the surprise is HUGE and the effort they will put into getting what they want (what they're used to) will be similarly HUGE until they realise the boundary is here for keeps.

I define my own boundaries with D5 now. I allow my W to define hers and I define mine... .we cannot work in partnership as this dynamic plays out time and time and time again. D5 respects my boundaries as I calmly assert myself... .e.g. "D5 if you do that again I will ask you to leave the room". When she ignores me I remove her from the room and close the door. I can now look her square in the eyes and say "Do you know Daddy means what he says and says what he means?" and she will say "yes". I am consistent, clear and appropriate. My W can huff and puff but I know my actions are reasonable and appropriate and I don't need nor care about her validating them. I then step back when she makes a pigs ear of her discipline of D5. I am also very careful not to threaten something I cannot execute e.g. No TV for a week is out, no sweet all week is out... .why? Because I am not there to police that threat.

Accepting that you are not in a partnership relationship is the step you need to make. Partnership behaviour does not work with someone who is protecting their own self interest namely their own emotions.

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« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2019, 07:50:24 AM »

I'm making very slow progress on this.

If she says "If A I'm gonna take your toy away". When "A" happens (repeatedly), I don't go and take the toy in her place.

If she says "If A we are not going to the zoo". When "A" happens (repeatedly), I say I'm not driving them to the zoo.

I'm not an enforcer, but I'm not going to be part of saying A and doing B. And she's taking this better, and begining to understand it.

One day she told both: "Joe is in charge of deciding when you have videogames". I dint'd let them take a videogame all weekend and they protested very little, because they know insisting doesn't work with me. We did all kinds of things instead of videgames, and it was a good weekend for the 4 of us. This is already forgotten, and she didn't say that because she thought I'd do better, but out of resentment.

I'd probably be too strict as a father on my own. Because I grew up that way, and it wasn't a bad childhood. We are constantly rewarding this kids, and getting them out of trouble, doing their work for them, but everyday is a battle. Everyday they are discontent, and there's some kind of violence.

We mostly agree on strategies, and concepts and values. But then things are not done in the way we agreed it was appropriate.

She did have an awful childhood. And the kids have been already abandoned by their dad, and the rest of the family is rarely in the picture. 65% of the times they say they're gonna visit (or take the kids somewhere for a birthday, for example), they cancel some minutes AFTER we were expecting them.

So she wants to be there for all the people that are not here. And that leads her to overcompensate, and enable them.

She's barely holding up herself. Weak health, depressed, thinking about suicide often, mostly unemployed for 5 years now... .She talks to me, and she's devastated, then hits pause, smiles and she's a mother for the hours the kids are awake and not in school, then she hits play again when we are alone, or she is alone. So she gives them the small mount of energy she has, and it doens't work, they act as if they hated her when she's not a complete pleasing slave to them. So she fells either hated of used.

I get it that most of the bad decissions we make are to end some conflict. "This is wrong but we don't want more violence". And she (and we all) deserve some peace. But in the long run, we are perpetuating the conflicts IMO.

I guess I can't stay mad at her for long, or be consistent towards her, same as she can't toward the kids. Because I see how much she suffers, and I love her. Then I have doubts because I don't have the same love for the kids, and I don't know if I would act/think differently if they were my kids or if I loved them the same way she loves them.

Anyway, thanks for your understanding and pointers.
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« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2019, 08:28:39 AM »

JoeBPD81,

I don't think this is an uncommon dynamic, especially one where part of the family are off the scene and unreliable. There's a subconcious competition/compensation that you talk of to open the flood gates on 'chillaxed' behaviour... .I mean after all the last thing they need is more emotional torment in their lives. It's foolish though and lacks and understanding of what children need. They need to feel safe and they need to feel consistency. You felt safe and consistency because your parents were strict... .and they were consistently strict. You knew where the electric fence was and you avoided it... .the fence DID NOT MOVE. On a slight side note, but from what I have read, one of the most damaging forms of parental abuse is when a parent is hyper loving one moment and then very abusive the next. A child cannot avoid the electric fences as they shift from moment to moment. If you knew that you were going to be beaten every time you didn't do your homework... .you'd do your homework every time to avoid a beating. You might not like your mum or dad for this but you'll be able to process it and adjust your behaviour accordingly. If you were beaten every time your dad had a bad day at work... .well... .what can you do other than cognitively give up.

You're doing the right thing by not enabling the dysfunction by driving them to the zoo, I wonder how you communicate this to your W in private? Especially since you shining a light on her dysfunctional behaviour is likely to arouse her guilt and shame sensitivities... ."you are wrong". Positively triangulating some parenting classes into the equation in the hope that it resets the family dynamic. It is exhausting investing energy into reducing conflict in a home. I know, I have been there. When you're emotionally attached to your childrens moods it becomes debilitating... .the key is to emotionally detach from their moods a bit like you would BPD... .in fact... .view your kids as having BPD and that's a starting point, kids are pwBPD, it's just that they grow out of it. By investing less emotional energy into 'fighting' with them you will in turn reduce the amount of fuel you add to the fire. How often for example do you validate your SS12?

Read this... .it's for avoiding parental alienation (which is a risk in a marriage especially one where you are step dad) but they are excellent ways of staying centred whilst a kid is being super challenging.

www.drcachildress.org/asp/admin/getFile.asp?RID=63&TID=6&FN=pdf

It works.

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« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2019, 07:19:49 AM »

I started to read the document, and it was interesting, then I had a conversation with my GF and lost the energy to continue.

To be able to sleep after all day fighting with the kid, she's taking some prescription, and that gives her paranoia. The paranoia led to her breaking up with me, she's still home but being very nasty and wanting to burn all the bridges.

This must be the 100th time she says she's leaving but staying until she finds a place for them. Then time goes by and without any clarification, she's not leaving. But every time, I believe this will be the true one. I'm scared, and angry, and sad
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« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2019, 08:42:42 AM »

I have an analogy for you... .

She's on an emotional rollercoaster, only this is her normal so as far as she's concerned this is all she has ever known so she's able to shut her eyes and block out the up and down movement... .have you ever been on a boat for longer than a couple of days, you get off and get land sick, it's weird... .You have chosen to join her on this emotional rollercoaster going up and down and up and down. You feel the ups and downs because frankly this is not at all normal for you and its a rollercoaster. She's screaming at you (she blocks that out as well) and you're screaming back at her... .only because she's blocked out the sounds of her screams she just see's you sitting there yelling away because... .you're on a painful emotional rollercoaster. You're on the RC because you're trying to micromanage her emotions, the things she thinks about you and desperately trying to stop her damn yelling at you. All she sees is you as abusive and out of control... .blissful unaware of her own yelling and up and down emotions.

GET OFF THE RIDE

If you stand on the viewing platform and stop joining her on the ride she can either convince herself that you're moving (although there will be no physical or verbal evidence for this), or she can accept that she has a serious problem and stop blaming you. I'm not surprised you feel so many emotions at the same time, you're tracking her. Stand still, stop moving, stop chasing and stop JADEing. Let her tie herself in knots wondering if you are trustworthy... .you are trustworthy, you are behaving in a trustworthy way and there is no evidence that you're not trustworthy... .let her find the evidence that you're not. Give her space when she threatens to split up from her by standing still. You don't have to run away and hide, you just have to stand still and go about you thing quietly, peacefully and kindly. If you normally cook dinner, offer her dinner... .if she refuses your offer, cook for yourself. Show kindness and respect her word, do not participate in disrespectful conflict, threats and accusations.

If you haven't already, start writing a journal somewhere safe but accessible. This will preserve your sanity about remembering events.

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« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2019, 01:59:13 AM »

You are right, and it's a great analogy.

In the past I've managed to stay out of the ride for some periods, and I was more aware of JADEing. Lately, the stress has caught up with me. And I was in the roller coaster before I knew it.

The thing is, she knows she has a big problem, but still, she can blame me for triggering it.

There are things she denies about BPD, about seeing people black or white, for example. But after 5 years of giving her absolutely all my life, yesterday she was pure hate, and all the things she said were daggers to my heart. Today I can't stop crying.

All I've done and sacrificed, so she can call me names, and say she wants to forget she ever met me... .
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« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2019, 03:29:05 AM »

Hey Joe,

Sorry to hear you've been desperately upset about this. I was there a couple of years ago, lost 30lbs in a pretty short period of time and was in complete despair. It's not pleasant at all... .but... .you have choices now. You can stay in the hole, or start climbing out.

Some of the board members talk about "taking your ears elsewhere" when she rants and says horrible things to you. It sounds super arrogant but you have to see the rant for what it is... .a child throwing a tantrum. It does not warrant your time or attention and in fact you're probably doing everyone a favour if you don't listen to what she says. There is nothing wrong with saying "I'm happy to talk when you have calmed down, I will be going now (or I will be turning my phone off till tomorrow morning)"... .then doing just that.

If she went out and stole a car and then blamed it on you because "you hurt her feelings" what would your reaction be? What would the police say to her? She can tell you that you're responsible for everything and anything she likes... .doesn't make it true. If you don't want to invalidate what she says, say nothing, even better is reflecting it back "so I understand what you're saying, you believe I made you feel paranoid because I sent you a photo of my lunch whilst I was out with colleagues?"... ."yes, you knew exactly how I would react"... ."so let me get this right, you think I wanted you to be paranoid, I wanted you to leave me and I wanted you to shout at me and call me names?" ... ."Yes, you're evil"... ."Oh, I feel sad you think I'm like that... .I'll be going now/nee some time to reflect on that."

"All I've done"... .you're sounding like a victim there... .maybe you feel like you are, but it's not going to help you that much. You did the things for her because you are kind and generous, they were a gift... .a true gift isn't something you expect something back in return... .it's done... .if you don't like it... .don't give her further gifts of your time, effort and money. Else... .see it as a gift and expect nothing in return. If you frame it in this way you'll kill your soul that little bit less each day expecting something in return that you're never going to receive.

Stay strong buddy

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« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2019, 06:57:06 AM »

Just some minutes ago, she said she fell asleep, and that she doesn't remember the last 3 days. She is sounding more like herself, and she didn't call me any names in this conversation.

I don't know what to believe or what to expect.

But thanks a lot for being there.
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« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2019, 07:25:44 AM »

Joe, you don't need to believe anything, deciding what to believe and what not to believe at this time is pointless and you'll find yourself stumbling around spending time trying to piece together an impossible puzzle... .

It could be dissociation, it could be a lie, it could be her way of cognitive dissonance (I was mad for a minute there so I can't be blamed for my actions). Either way it is a bit irrelevant in the short term and just another note in your journal to maybe later see if there is any sort of pattern.

It wasn't 'nothing' and your emotional experience shouldn't so much be minimised if it has the opportunity to be expressed (likely wont and she'll expect it to be brushed under the carpet).

- How do you feel about the 3 days of loop the loop on the rollercoaster?
- What did you learn?
-What would you do differently if you could repeat the 3 days?

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« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2019, 03:09:04 AM »

Well, this post was about the kid and I kidnapped my own post.

Here I'm talking about this episode alone:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=333447.msg13032421#msg13032421

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« Reply #25 on: January 28, 2019, 03:23:09 AM »

I'm no expert but it seems very probable that your step son's issues are tied at least in part to your wife's behavior and your (you and her) inability to provide your son a safe, secure and stable emotional container with which to operate. The fences move, they're weak and fall over, some parts of the fence have barbed wire and others have sweets strung along the wire... .hell someone has even sprinkled sweets on the other side of the fence!

"You" (plural) are unlikely to be able to co-parent in the traditional sense of the word, "You" (singular) ought to define your own framework for your step-son, one that is clear, consistent, encourages you to stay emotionally centred all the time and is rewarding for your step-son to adhere to... .and isn't reliant at all on your wife's participation. One that show's off the very best adult behaviour you can muster whilst NOT highlighting your W's dysfunction.

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« Reply #26 on: January 28, 2019, 08:32:40 AM »

That's for sure, enabler.

I moan and complain here, but I also learn, and I try to make a difference by improving myself. Knowing I can't change them.

Last word is that she broke up with me and she's searching what to do next. But she's also said to me and the kids some plans for spring, as the break up didn't happen. So I always feel that I want to do things well "while they last", not knowing how long that will be.

Today she's been crying all day. She was really mad at the kid yesterday, and I also yelled at the kid to start moving when everyone else had finished their chores and he was sitting on the floor playing with some toys the whole time. We told him a bunch of times to change clothes, clean his hands and take the clothes he had on the floor before luch. He didn't move a finger, so each time, I asked with less patience. And at the end, I claped really loud, and I screamed "Now, not later, I'm not seeing you getting up and runing, come on, now!" He didn't move, nor say anything, so I screamed louder "Why do you always wait until we are screaming and very mad at you to start moving a finger?" And things on that direction.

Of course it was wrong of me. He said he rather not have lunch than help setting the table and do those things. Ten minutes later he came as if nothing had happened asking for lunch, TV, videogames... .Mom was crying when I yelled, and she was distant the rest of the day, but answering pretty bad to each of the kid's demands. She looked beaten. And she's been crying all day today too.

She is afraid to wake him up, because the fights and the refusing of doing anything start from the 1st minute. He says he's not going to school, he's not dressing, he's not setting up his backpack... .

We are all very tired of all the fighting. He seems to not understand what's the problem of us doing all the work, and him just doing what he fells like doing. So he's really mad about us "not leaving him alone".

As I see it, he can't see the difference between "good for me" and "good/fair". If someone else has to spend 3 hours of their time because I forgot a book, it's great because I got the book without even remembering to take it. Nothing bad there. If I have the TV remote and I'm watching what I want all day, it doesn' t matter  that my brother is crying, that we missed a date, that maybe any of the others would like to watch something too... .If I finish my meal and I want more, and it's all served, I take from my brother's plate, or my father's, because I want it.

You have to see it everyday to understand. He's very puzzled that the rest of the people don't live to do exactly what he wants. As if he thought we all were suporting cast on his movie, and not real people.

In cartoons there all many parodies of very selfish characters, they are not parodies but understatements of the real deal. In 5 years I know him, I haven't seen a sign that he understands that other people are people. It's very scary.

He seems to not understand what he need to do in any given moment, and when he understands and he sees that we want him to do it, he says he won't do it. With every little thing, so this happens a hundred times a day.

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« Reply #27 on: January 28, 2019, 11:25:23 AM »

The behaviour must be maddening. It’s unreasonable BUT he’s a child and therefore your ability to meet his unreasonableness with belligerence is limited. It would be reasonable enough to say “I have asked you to lay the table, that is a reasonable request, if you do not lay the table I will assume you don’t want to eat”... .and actually follow through. This would be the fair thing to do, to take him at his words/actions, state what you expect and inform him of the consequences of not doing so... .BUT, you’re in a relationship with someone who has BPD, someone whom is hyper vigilant for threats and but “starving” your step son you’re putting your head above the parapet liable to be taken out again.

I wonder whether or not that young man enjoys being seen as bad, he’s been told enough times he is right? Children can’t separate (in the same way a pwBPD can’t) the difference between doing a bad thing and ‘being bad’. If I do bad things I must be bad, there’s an inability to have dichotomous thinking. No grey. I don’t know how you solve this other than potentially ignore the bad and praise the good, but at the same time quietly and effortlessly hold firm boundaries.

You W will likely cry when she hears shouting, that’s threatening and scary. How’s about you don’t shout, shouting means you have lost control. How’s about you calmly, clearly and firmly state what you expect and then calmly and clearly ensure that happens. No shouting, no screaming, just calmly state what you want, what will happen if you don’t get it.

“What did you do that for?”... .“because that is what I said I would do if you didn’t move your toy”

“I want dinner now”... .“as I said, if you didn’t lay the table I will assume you don’t want any dinner”. If W shares her meal, that’s up to her. That’s her problem now, all discussions should come back to “I asked him to lay the table, that was a reasonable request, I told him he would not get dinner if he didn’t,” it’s very matter of fact but you are taking yourself out the equation.
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« Reply #28 on: March 21, 2019, 10:23:20 AM »

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