Do they know what they are doing is wrong?

[Sandb2015]

Mod note: This post was split from the following discussion: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=333126.0

My opinion... .

When they are in "episode mode" they don't want to know, they let go in a way we (nons) just can't, void of any filter. When things are good, they do know, and struggle with the deep pain that exists knowing that and the impossible task to even think of their loved one fully accepting and forgiving them --- and themselves of course.

Not an answer, only a theory that still rings of something positive however unrealistic  

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[Sandb2015]

Sorry, one more thing.

When we are angry, hurt, confused, broken, we say they know.

When things are seemingly good, we say they don't know.

Is it ok to say the answer is inside of us the nons and not them?

[itsmeSnap]

When things are good, they do know, and struggle with the deep pain that exists knowing that and the impossible task to even think of their loved one fully accepting and forgiving them --- and themselves of course.

My gf/ex worried constantly that we'd be "chaos" and if I could ever handle her "evil side".

She knew.

When they are in "episode mode" they don't want to know, they let go in a way we (nons) just can't, void of any filter

It doesn't matter if they know, I used to let her know I knew about BPD and was willing to work through it with her. She believed it, but after every "incident" she would split and be gone, want nothing to do with me.

When she came back she always "forgot about it", but I suspect she still knew and pleaded the fifth (its about not giving self-incriminating info in law ).

Is it ok to say the answer is inside of us the nons and not them?

The truth is real whether we believe in it or not, and beliefs are real to the person who believes in them, whether they are true or not.

What truly matters is what we do, do we choose to be powerless? or do we take control of what we can and let go of what we cannot change? Or maybe there's a middle ground?

The answer to that I believe is inside of each of us, both BPD and non.

Deep questions you present here sandb2015. I see this thread was split from another discussion, is there something on your mind that's prompting such soul searching for yourself?

[Sandb2015]

Yes, soul searching all the time, it keeps my head above water.

I’m going through a rough time and trying to reconcile, I’ve been cast away. Not giving up.

My love has said such devaluing things, really harsh.

At the time I couldn’t believe someone that loves you could be so cruel, I got stuck so deeply, it cut right through.  On better days I asked gently and she couldn’t remember and I told her it was horrible without details, I felt I would start a fire.

Now I’ve learned how to cope when and if it happens again.

In the end, does it matter? Does it mean something if the non becomes less sensitive or filters it out?

I believe it can be done with a long term approach, validating, no JADEing, individual therapy, couple therapy. I will extend my hope to the limits because I imagine we aren’t done yet and realize we might be someday.

I hope with realistic projections.

[itsmeSnap]

In the end, does it matter? Does it mean something if the non becomes less sensitive or filters it out?

If it means something to you, then it does matter.

I will extend my hope to the limits because I imagine we aren’t done yet and realize we might be someday.

I hope with realistic projections.

Realistic expectations come from a good grip on reality. What's your reality sandb2015? You mentioned you've been cast away, what happened in your relationship that you're putting the work and the meditation to improve?

[Sandb2015]

Thank you istmeSnap,

My love definitely has some strong symptoms of BPD.  4 year relationship filled with episodes, living together with her teenage son, thrown out many times for BPD "nothings".  I never reacted well, I did the opposite of the things I've learned here and my old style magnified the blowups.

A little over a month ago, I was thrown out, little and big get togethers, mostly good and as much as I've been told to stay away and give her space, after 12 days of no contact, I sought her out and it's been a perceived mixed bag since.  I'm not giving up, we do have a connection, she says she can't be with me because she can't have a relationship and she can't handle my love.

I know we make choices for all sorts of reasons, I am making a choice to not give up.  I am validating when we are together when necessary and it's working like magic, small episode just dissipates in 5 minutes.  I have a plan if and when we do "get back together".  I know if the plan crumbles, there is no way no matter how devastating it will be.

[itsmeSnap]

I am validating when we are together when necessary and it's working like magic, small episode just dissipates in 5 minutes.

Good to hear you're making progress 

I have a plan if and when we do "get back together".  I know if the plan crumbles, there is no way no matter how devastating it will be

Mind if I ask what the devastating part would be? You've proven that you can change your approach, why is there no other way if the original plan crumbles?

[Sandb2015]

Thank you for the sincere encouragement,

Well, it went on too long using my reasoning, logic, patience, long explanations, justifying, plan out argument and sometimes extreme defensiveness. I am persuasive and can have a mouse swallow an elephant if it listens long enough-yucky to think I am that arrogant.

I have tried out the tools of validation and NOT JADEing. I am honing my skills and am motivated to make a difference in our relationship, I do want a whole life with her.

I will try my best to incorporate therapy together and individually.  I can't rely on my simple new tools to make the sole difference in a healthier relationship and as healthier individuals, it may, may not so therapy with someone who specializes in BPD.

I see the plan, I am positive, I want my life with this woman and I see the connection, she has turned around quickly in the past, 1 or 2 days tops.  This time its a stronger push/very small pull, I'm more keenly aware of her struggle with this relationship more than ever and I'm empathetic, not so much codependent as a month ago.

I'm trying to stay relevant and fear I'll fade away if I let go of my positive outlook by keeping in touch, seeing each other when possible.


However, I will not endure what I have in the way I have even if I am/was responsible for the acceleration of the magnitude of blowups.

If my new sharp and shiny tools aren't enough, they may be, not sure, new road ahead. If they aren't then therapy, if no therapy, I did what I could and will deal with the devastation of a true love lost.

I will scoop water out until my fingers fall off, I won't go down with the ship.

[itsmeSnap]

If my new sharp and shiny tools aren't enough, they may be, not sure, new road ahead. If they aren't then therapy

It doesn't have to be an either/or situation, others have commented how therapy helps in some ways, talking on the board in others where therapy just doesn't reach, as well as working on their own life and self esteem.

Maybe having all the options and opinions can give you a better outlook.

I did what I could and will deal with the devastation of a true love lost.

I will scoop water out until my fingers fall off, I won't go down with the ship.

Its true we can't get others to change, so its good to know your own limits. Having said that, a pump moves more water than a bucket  what I mean by this is the tools help tremendously, even if they are fiddly and take time getting used to; also make sure to save your fingers, you might need them later 

You have a very interesting way to look at things sandb2015 and it seems to me like you're giving all of this a fair bit of thought, its good to share with others to know their viewpoint and get feedback on what it all means, and hopefully others might also benefit from the insight you've been gathering 

[Sandb2015]

I really appreciate it, I've calmed down, the contact I initiated after the NC for 12 days just reinforced the positive outlook that was painful to hold onto while ruminating about what I thought she was thinking, that was temporarily damaging.

I know sharing as other helps myself and others even when it's just venting.  As I think more clearly, I see things clearer.

Getting back together and starting where we left off is just going to be a disaster for me hence the plan.  She does know she has specific issues and she does have the fortitude to confront under the right circumstances which helps my outlook.

If my tools aren't enough and she won't engage in therapy with me or separately, I can't imagine being in love my whole life while not loving myself at all.

I'd sacrifice some fingers for a healthier life together, ten is too many.

A plan without going through scenarios and feeling the consequences of each, is not a well thought out plan, a little rigid I know, that's me.

[itsmeSnap]

I'd sacrifice some fingers for a healthier life together, ten is too many.

You sound determined, takes some special to see the difficulties ahead and meet them with courage.

Having said that, make the sacrifice count; don't go throwing fingers around just for the sake of it ok?

A plan without going through scenarios and feeling the consequences of each, is not a well thought out plan, a little rigid I know, that's me.

As long as you're willing to incorporate new info as it is revealed in your interactions then its not as rigid. Saying "this or bust" can be, so be sure to balance that