Newbie:constructive advice request

[Deer]

I am a daughter of not diagnosed BPD mom. I'm in my early 40s and throughout my childhood I struggled to comprehend my mothers irrational behavior, and depression. I was micromanaged, with very little freedom, the peacemaker in the middle for my parents, the emotional caretaker of my mom, and there was no emotional space for me. A number of things over time eroded my ability to trust her. Conversations with my own therapist lead us to believe she has BPD. This is the short version.

Why am I posting?

I love my mom very much and I know she went through a lot as a kid. She's been there for my in terms of physical needs even if not emotionally. I want and yearn for contact and relationship, but as I learn more about BPD I am starting to realize how much of an impact her illness has on my life.

I am looking for constructive advice and help

When I speak to my mom the conversation is almost entirely negative. She dwells on what's wrong, bad, and I feel used as a sounding board. My life is not without challenge and it's becoming impossible for me to just listen or empathize. I feel unseen and can go almost an entire conversation just saying um, oh, ah... .or nothing at all... .and when I do that she feels like we really connected. I feel irrelevant. Or the alternative is I say something I regret, tell her I'm not her therapist, or ask her 'and what positive things happened today?

I want to know your strategies for putting respectful and loving boundaries to conversations with a parent or loved one who is caustically negative, depressed, self centered... .etc

How do you cope? What strategies do you find help to distance your self without distancing yourself?

I'm an adult and rational in other areas of my life but it takes a small amount of time for me to reach my threshold of tolerance.

She complains about many things. Perhaps the most difficult is when she complains to me about where she lives and not seeing her grandchildren enough, thou I do not yet have a home of my own and have neither spouse nor kids. I know that's hardest as it presses on my pain points, and my unfulfilled wish to have a mom that is there for me emotionally and to whom I can turn. Instead she turns to me as she always has, and I can no longer do it.

We are a small family and I value family. I know I need to take one or several steps back. I also want to keep and enhance the relationship. How?

Please give me advice for respectfully setting new boundaries and limitations, vocabulary for doing that and any other hints and tips.

Difficult as I do not find it safe to share most of the joys and challenges I experience with her, as we are different and she does not understand or know how to acknowledge my emotional reality, so without that and when not complaining, there doesn't seem like much left to talk about, and conversations seem to repeat themselves over and over.

Thanks in anticipation

[Turkish]

Greetings Deer,



It sounds like you're all stuck in the emotional caretaker dynamic and it sounds tiresome, in addition to conversations being one-sided. I don't think there's anything wrong about asking, "what's going well for you right now? Though the response might be a litany of negatives.  You might want to try it for you. 

She complains about many things. Perhaps the most difficult is when she complains to me about where she lives and not seeing her grandchildren enough, thou I do not yet have a home of my own and have neither spouse nor kids.

Does she actually say "my grandchildren" even though she doesn't have any?

[Deer]

Thanks for your reply, it was important to me, and yes it's a big deal to post for the first time. Thou I always knew something was 'not right' with my moms responses, it has been quite an emotional journey to get to realization and acknowledgement that it is 'mental illness' and I also am struggling with feelings of anger, disbelief, and regret at just how long it has taken me to recognize it for what it is, how long it has been not been openly acknowledged in our family (I have only one brother) and now, framing my life with that knowledge, I have to acknowledge how much of an impact it has had on my life and relationships, and that's really hard when I am already over 40 and would like to be able to build a stable relationship and have kids... .it feels like a very late realization (too late?)

So I think you misunderstood. My parents do have a home and grandchildren, and it's hard for me to hear her complain about both (and my dads imperfections) as she is complaining about the things I long for. And seeing the difficulties in my parents relationship make it hard for me to get into my own and trust. My mom is anxious, complaining, trapped, and never pleased.

i will try Erie more as there's more to say than I can in one go, but I'm struggling with the avalanche of negativity, vs one or two tooth pulled positive statements and how to change the dynamic before I get to my limits!

Thanks

[Harri]

Hi!  Welcome to the board.  You have found a place where a lot of us can relate.  You are also in a place where several of our members are trying to maintain a relationship with their BPD parent and use several of the strategies and tools we use here to help facilitate that.

... .and that's really hard when I am already over 40 and would like to be able to build a stable relationship and have kids... .it feels like a very late realization (too late?)

Again, there are several of us who have only come to the realization of BPD and all that means in terms of having been raised by a disordered person.  You most definitely are not alone and no, I do not think it is too late for you to start your own family.

I want to know your strategies for putting respectful and loving boundaries to conversations with a parent or loved one who is caustically negative, depressed, self centered... .etc

How do you cope? What strategies do you find help to distance your self without distancing yourself?

I am trying to think of how to answer this concisely.  I am not sure I can.  I don't mean that I don't have advice and suggestions because I do.  But what to share is the problem! 

What I found helped me was to learn a bit about what drives the behaviors as that can help with decreasing frustration and any resentment there may be. 

Then we have tools like boundaries (which we can talk about), SET, DEARMAN, Don't Jade... .we have a lot of things.  We often talk about detaching with love too which sounds like what you want?

We have a great article on setting boundaries and limits that you might find helpful:  https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries
Read it and then come back and e can talk about it. 

Again, I am glad you found us.  Please feel free to settle in and read and jump in other threads.  We have a lot of people whoa re working through the same realizations as you and having a sense of community will help you.

[Sad4Her]

Hi Deer,
Unfortunately, in my experience with my own mother, I feel there just can't be a positive and adult conversation with her. How I cope is that I have found I needed to stop trying. I would just want to tell my mom about a new shirt I bought or something and she would create something negative and attacking about a simple conversation like this. I had to and still am working on learning that I can not have those everyday normal and loving conversations with my mom and never will unless she gets diagnosed and helped. So, now I work on not trying to. Instead, I call another family member or friend about it and feel great just to have a pleasant simple conversation. I just keep telling myself, "The definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing and expecting different results". This might sound silly to do but it works because it is so darn true. It helps me see the insanity of my constant trying. I hope this helps you in some way.
 

[Panda39]

Hi Sad4Her,

Would you consider email communication vs phone (or at least some of the time)? Setting a boundary around how you communicate might help.

Email slows things down so you can choose when you read the emails or even if you read the emails.  If the email is all "Negative Nelly" same stuff different day then just don't read it, or read it and look for a little ray of sunshine and only respond to that portion of the email.  You can use email to send her little messages, pictures, articles she might like so you are in communication but maybe a type of communication that is a little less demanding.

In terms of the phone, maybe have some reasons to cut the call short prepared if you get overwhelmed with the negativity.  Keep a list, I'm sorry but... .I have a friend coming over, I have to cook dinner, go to the grocery store, go to the bathroom, walk the dog... .whatever.  It is okay to take into account how you are feeling and end a draining phone call when you need to.

If she is being negative about something legitimate then you could also try to validate her feelings (but don't validate things that are invalid).

Information on Validation... .
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=81442.0
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=124001.0
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=191788.0

Panda39

[Deer]

Harri, thanks for your reply and helpful links, and most of all your warm encouragement. Thank you. As sad4her said, the definition of insanity is doing the same and expecting things to change. I know boundaries and setting limits would help. I know when I reach my threshold I can respond too strongly and unforgiving.

Many of the examples I came across through your link offer examples of setting limits when someone shouts or gets angry, saying 'if you continue to shout I will need to leave the room, or hang up the phone until we can speak in a calm way' etc.

Question is how would a reasonable statement like that sound when trying to set new boundaries to someone (uBPD m)who comes on the phone and proceeds to tell you everything that went wrong, who was hospitalized today, who is sick and what troubles are going on in their street, and is depressed, unburdening it on me, and it goes like that almost every conversation... .she is neglecting to see or tell what went right or is good, or positive plans, and giving only the negative? (In fact my dad is the polar opposite and takes the positive to the extreme, which really makes it difficult to know where the truth lies!

What I'd like suggestions for is How could I look to create statements that would communicate my inability to hear past a certain point, to fulfil that role, etc? It sounds unreasonable from my side... .

 When we meet up and I am there for a couple of days then it's even harder... .

Practical statements, and ideas would be so helpful, and how to 'separate with love', which is exactly my hope and aim.

Thank you

[Harri]

Hi. 

Would something like "mom, that is a lot of sad stuff going on and it depresses me to hear so much of it.  I need to either talk about other stuff" and then change the conversation... .would that work or be something you are willing to try?

Or "Mom, I don't think it is healthy for you to focus on all of this sad stuff as it does not help your depression so lets talk about ____ "

If it gets overwhelming for you to hear it, you can certainly say that too.  Something along the lines of "Mom, hearing all of this is very sad and I am already feeling down so I need to let you go.  We can talk later and focus on more positive stuff"

I am trying to come up with some more sayings but can't think of any right now.  I hope others can chime in.  My mom was more the yelling type so in that sense it was a bit more obvious and easier to deal with.  She would get very negative sometimes and I would say "Mom, I can't listen to this negative stuff anymore and I have to hang up now" but I think that is more direct than you want? 

Do any of these sound doable?  Let's see what else we can come up with.

Separating with love is also done with boundaries, understanding the disorder and what drives you moms behaviors so you can depersonalize them and self differentiation.  The communication tools can also help too.  I can give you a ton of links but it might be better for you to check out the library section of the board and see what catches your eye. 

We also have a board that focuses heavily on using the tools we offer here.  I am not saying you are posting in the wrong place because you are not, but you might benefit by reading there: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?board=6.0  The people who post there are involved in romantic relationships but use the same tools I am referring to here so see what you think.

I hope something here is helpful.  If not, let's keep working on it.   

[Deer]

It's almost shocking to realize I have the freedom to make a statement like 'Mom, hearing all of this is very sad and I am already feeling down so I need to let you go.  We can talk later and focus on more positive stuff"'

Wow.

It is an important principle for me to act respectfully to my parents. When I can't take the negativity and I reach my limits I don't want to snap or withdraw.  I really believe there are ways to get there... and these statements show me there are. I just can't find that vocabulary on my own yet. . I just don't have the emotional awareness and the vocabulary to do it. I guess it is part of learning healthy boundaries and I am lacking there.
So this is really the direction I want and need. Nervous to 'admit' to feeling down to her as it will be used against me or to my detriment brought up over and again, etc.

But maybe. If you or any others have other suggestions I would be grateful. I rather not post on the relationship board, as it is different, but would welcome any relevant links too.

Many thanks, so helpful

[Harri]

    

So this is really the direction I want and need. Nervous to 'admit' to feeling down to her as it will be used against me or to my detriment brought up over and again, etc.

That is a good point about her possibly using the 'feeling down' part against you.  At some point, part of me thinks who cares but (!) I did not want to give my mom ammunition either.  It made things hurt more.  So how about we take that part out:  "Mom, hearing all of this is very sad and I am already feeling down so I need to let you go.  We can talk later and focus on more positive stuff"

I just don't have the emotional awareness and the vocabulary to do it. I guess it is part of learning healthy boundaries and I am lacking there.

None of us do or did when we first came here.  We never learned this stuff as kids but we can as adults.  The thing is, it is harder when the parent is disordered (I know I am stating the obvious here.)  A healthy parent can allow their child to self differentiate and have their own thoughts opinions and feelings.  A disordered parent sees such things as betrayal and or a threat to their own self (a lot have deep shame and fear of abandonment).  YOu might get push back as you implement and enforce boundaries.  That is okay.  You are not responsible for your moms emotions nor are you her emotional regulator. 

What has your experience been when you have tried to use boundaries with your mom?  Can you describe a situation?

[Sad4Her]

Panda39,

Thanks Panda39. My mom is older and doesn't really know how email works so muck. I actually text with her mostly now and keep the phone calls short. Also, I just don't tell her anything about my life anymore. It's just easier that way.

[Deer]

Harri, I thought a lot about your post.
I don't feel able to share my own difficult feelings, pain, loss, or sadness with my mom because either she 'takes them on' as her own, and I find myself having to soothe and constantly reassure her, rather than take care of my own needs, or I hear 'don't be so silly -you shouldn't feel like that' - lack of validation. So thou I would love to share and feel supported, it's usually detrimental if I do.u

 you wrote:
What has your experience been when you have tried to use boundaries with your mom?  Can you describe a situation?

I have been introduced (a little... ) through the this site, and walking on eggshells to 'F.O.G'.

And in thinking it through, I would say I get, or anticipate getting the guilt trip, along the lines of ' I'm always the bad one׳. ׳no one considers me', 'I worry about everyone' and guilt feelings for causing her pain as she says she is alone with my dad out much of the day, and few friends, she's home alone most of the time etc.

I also think I take on her emotions somewhat, a role I have played since childhood - likeour conversations are where she offloads her negative emotions onto me and I reflect them back to her... .leaving me in pain and her feeling better (bad boundaries... .does this make any sense?)

She can show much caring and thoughtfulness in practical things and so making those boundaries seems cruel, as it's all undercurrents and not overt.

Sometimes it's obvious that her responses are way beyond normal, and are extreme, and then she can be nice and regular.

So if I set a strong boundary, it can improve until suddenly... .

It's very tough to decide what my limits are and what to ask for of define as boundaries.

As what she says 'I'm so glad they found the body of the footballer' can be taken as a compassionate statement, but when it comes on the back of several other conversations about who's been diagnosed with x and is suffering from y, and omits the more balanced picture which includes the vacation day the just booked, the walk along the beach and coffee that they had that day, meeting up with others, and the lighter suff she's done, it's not a compassionate statement about something bad or sad that happened - it's a barrage of negativity, dumped on me, that's communicating something deeper, that I can't quite put my finger on what and why... .

So finding the statement in it that I should communicate is hard:

I don't feel able to hear the negativity right now
You sound pained? Down? Like you can't see the good, and I can't take hearing it?

What... .

I hope at least some of this makes sense.

[sklamath]

Hi, Deer! I could relate to a lot in your post. There is something particularly gross to me about my own mom over-identifying with what few personal things I choose to share with her; I would almost prefer her dismissing it, or pouting out of disapproval. Admittedly, I have not only allowed my mom to ruminate and emotionally dump on me was, I've enabled it. In lieu of knowing anything about defining or enforcing boundaries, it was a coping mechanism that allowed me to deflect from sharing anything about myself.

I think I can understand what you say about how hard it is to articulate just what's wrong or where the line was crossed when your mother becomes a fount of negativity, much less to set appropriate boundaries around it. On the surface, my own mother appears to be just so very, very caring and sensitive. It's become clearer to me that she finds her own identity in being a victim, and thus she identifies with the world around her through this lens. "Sharing" is Mom's code word for ruminating about her own perceived victimhood, past or present, or criticizing and gossiping about other people's hardships... .and just how bad she feels for them.

Before you can defend your boundaries, it sounds like you need to define them. For me, choosing not to reveal too much about myself is OK; this is a boundary. Other questions I might ask myself in determining where to set a boundary when my mom becomes negative might be: Is this information relevant to me, e.g. is Mom sharing information that isn't hers to share, or about people or topics that are irrelevant to me (or her, for that matter)? Is this something I would tolerate from anyone other than Mom? Is going "grey rock" while Mom ruminates OK, or is this enabling her? Does allowing this line of conversation to continue feel wrong to me? Why? Would [emotionally healthy friend or relative] allow this?

[Deer]

Wow, @sklrmath, your words hit me with their clarity-specifically:

"Admittedly, I have not only allowed my mom to ruminate and emotionally dump on me was, I've enabled it. In lieu of knowing anything about defining or enforcing boundaries, it was a coping mechanism that allowed me to deflect from sharing anything about myself. "

It was so obvious when I read it. I just hadn't classified it that way. I don't share and my mom talks, it's also my defense, because though I desperately want to share, it's too dangerous emotionally for me to do so. I still find that hard to come to terms with. And even harder that I am only starting to face the realities- of mental health issues in the family and their impact on me now, in my 40s. I have tried in the past to understand, but my T's suggestion several months ago that my mom was uBPD blew me away and I have been trying to get my head around it, face it and reframe my past and my own struggles in light of that knowledge. I don't think it's an understatement to say I'm devastated, simply because all the struggles I had, I thought I was getting somewhere. I now feel I never got off the starting block, and wonder if Even possible to expect to be able to build good relationships from here... .

But I have no choice... .I have to find a way... .I have to find a way through.

[Libra]

Hi Deer,

Your description of your relationship with your mother was hard to read. It is so similar to my own experiences. I truly do understand. 

The emotional dumping is draining. It is an offloading of negative emotions. I still have to consciously fight not to absorb that negative emotion. I simply try not to get sucked into that spiral. I used to try to make her see the positive side of things, but that makes her feel invalidated, which only makes matters worse. I now try to accept that this is how she sees the world, and that these are her feelings. I also have to realise that I cannot change the way she feels, and that I am not responsible for her feelings. They are hers and hers alone. I now try to validate her feelings, without judging them. Something like: 'Gee mom, that sure sounds unpleasant'. The more I try this, she more she seems placated. It helps somewhat stem the negative barrage. I don't know if this may help in yoru specific situation?

I don't feel able to share my own difficult feelings, pain, loss, or sadness with my mom because either she 'takes them on' as her own, and I find myself having to soothe and constantly reassure her, rather than take care of my own needs, or I hear 'don't be so silly -you shouldn't feel like that' - lack of validation.

Yes. Either she appropriates it into her own world, or it gets talked over and is irrelevant. There is a lack of empathy from her side, but she expects so much empathy to come back to her. This used to irritate me. I now understand that - for me - the underlying feeling is actually anger. It makes me angry that communication and empathy are a one way street. I have to acknowledge this anger. And I have to learn to  leave her feelings with her. It is not up to me - or you - to soothe and reassure our mother. We are not responsible for their feelings, only for our own.

I will chime in with what Harri and Sklamath have said: we have to learn what our own values and are, and then we have to set boundaries to protect these values. Boundaries are not about punishing the person we are using them with, they are meant to protect our own values.

For me, a big part of the work also was - and still is - emotional detachment. I was very enmeshed with my mother. I have had to distance myself before I could start trying to improve the relationship. I am not my mother's caretaker. I am not responsible for her emotions, and I am entitled to my own life, with my own opinions, emotions, friends, etc.

You too are entitled to your own life, Deer. You are entitled to be heard, and to be happy. 

 

Libra.

[Harri]

Hi Deer!

I get what you are saying about your mom taking your feelings on as her own and then having to comfort her.  Ugh.  To this day i will say "Yes, I am upset, but I will figure it out it is all good" when it is anything but good.  I apologize when i get sick

What you describe here is how I used to think of boundaries to an extent.  Not knowing where I began or ended in relation to another:  taking on their emotions, defining me based on their opinion of me, etc.
Since coming here and adopting this sites way of looking as boundaries (as a way to protect us based on our personal values)  I realize that poor self-differentiation is what makes me take on the emotions of others, question my value and who I am because someone does not like me, etc.   Google Bowen's Family Systems Theory.  He talks about triangulation (not all is bad) and self-differentiation.

Differentiation is not something most of us have or can do automatically given the way we were raised.  The good news is we can learn it and train ourselves to differentiate and have a strong independent sense of self and learn to recognize our own worth.  It is hard to do when on the receiving end of emotional blackmail (FOG) and poor boundaries but it can be done. 

Libra said:  I now understand that - for me - the underlying feeling is actually anger. It makes me angry that communication and empathy are a one way street. I have to acknowledge this anger. And I have to learn to  leave her feelings with her. It is not up to me - or you - to soothe and reassure our mother. We are not responsible for their feelings, only for our own.

Libra nailed this.  It is true and it is quite freeing to realize this not only can be done but it is your right to have your own emotions and not take on someone elses and to allow yourself to feel anger.  it is okay.  Bottling it up is what causes it to explode and then things go down hill for everyone.

[Deer]

I didn't realize that there are other people out there. Who have felt as I do. Experienced a childhood often feeling invisible, an extension of another, absorbing their pain as my own and not making room for or legitimizing my feelings so that now, as an adult I struggle to identify and name my own emotions and to differentiate and build a sense of self, as Harri mentioned.

Libra, I can't begin to tell you how much I appreciated your post, and felt like I found a kindred spirit. Also strange that in feeling that closeness I felt the need to hide, rather than reply sooner. That's also a defense that I find, as revealing my self and my own vulnerability usually worked against me in my early years... .

So thanks, I appreciate you sharing, as I appreciate Harris sharing too... .

Libra, you wrote
For me, a big part of the work also was - and still is - emotional detachment. I was very enmeshed with my mother. I have had to distance myself before I could start trying to improve the relationship. I am not my mother's caretaker. I am not responsible for her emotions, and I am entitled to my own life, with my own opinions, emotions, friends, etc.

I am at the point of awareness, but still so enmeshed. My mom will tell me how her friend is sick, for instance, but I experience it not as something I should hear and sympathize with, or show concern for(normal), but rather that she's looking to me for reassurance that it will be ok-for my mom... .I pick up her fear... .and then I feel... .I guess extreme anger... .

Not even that I must support her-or shut down emotionally, building a wall- which seems like the only alternative in my grasp right now- but the reason I feel resentful and what causes me the most pain and anger is that I could never turn to her with my real and true fears and hurts... .almost never! So I'm exhausted emotionally from holding myself together and holding her up, and being the peacemaker and the sounding board and go between for my parents... triangulation...

And now I'm trying to find my borders, my reaction has been to limit my visits, calls and texts to my mom, to speak to her through my dad more, and to be abrupt when she is negative or depressive, which is almost every conversation. I feel my throat tighten and my body tense, and I can't (yet?) fins my good boundaries. I find it virtually impossible to protect myself from absorbing her negativity.

With so many topics off limit as they trigger negativity , and with my being unable to safely share with her almost anything meaningful to me, it leaves very little room for conversation... .and I usually find I have nothing to say and she fills the space with all that negativity.

I don't know how to get out and exit this pattern.

I know it's healthy boundaries and disentangling from an enmeshed relationship, and I have learned the hard way that intellectual knowledge alone does not bring change.

IFS with my T is powerful and helping... .still I wish I could press a button and get there. Thank you all for being awesome and a caring support... .

[Libra]

Hi Deer,

Also strange that in feeling that closeness I felt the need to hide, rather than reply sooner. That's also a defense that I find, as revealing my self and my own vulnerability usually worked against me in my early years... .

All of us here share a lot of the same issues. It is safe to post here. You will not be judged, you will be heard. That being said, there is no obligation to post if you feel uncomfortable, or if you feel a need to process something on your own. This is a safe haven with open doors: no obligations, and always supportive.  

I am at the point of awareness, but still so enmeshed.

Awareness is the first step! 
It is the key that opens the doors to further growth and healing: discovering your own emotions, developing a sense of self, un-earthing you values… everything begins with awareness. You have taken a huge step to start a challenging but rewarding journey.

My mom will tell me how her friend is sick, for instance, but I experience it not as something I should hear and sympathize with, or show concern for(normal), but rather that she's looking to me for reassurance that it will be ok-for my mom... .I pick up her fear... .and then I feel... .I guess extreme anger... .

We have been trained to take care of our parent, to placate the whirlwind that is their emotions. It is not easy to stop these habits. Again, being able to recognize what is going on is the first step. I get what you are saying, I really do. And you have every right to feel anger when your mother offloads her emotions onto you. I do too! I feel hurt as well. It hurts to be used like that. There is a deep lack of recognition of your own person, of who you ARE.   

This is also where boundaries and differentiation-of-self come into play. Are these emotions yours? No. Is it up to you to solve them? No. Should you feel responsible for her discomfort? No.
I try to keep a mantra in my head when interacting with my mother: ‘Not for you to solve, leave it with her. Not for you to solve, leave it with her, …’. It sounds selfish, but is it? She is an adult. She should be ale to handle her own emotions.

Not even that I must support her-or shut down emotionally, building a wall- which seems like the only alternative in my grasp right now- but the reason I feel resentful and what causes me the most pain and anger is that I could never turn to her with my real and true fears and hurts... .almost never! So I'm exhausted emotionally from holding myself together and holding her up, and being the peacemaker and the sounding board and go between for my parents... triangulation...

Many of us here are grieving the parent they never had. It is unfair, and very sad.
Have you looked at the survivor-to-thriver manual yet? Anger, sadness, grief … it is all part of the healing process. It can help to see the bigger picture, and to see where you are in the process. (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=331826.0)

You say you are often a go-between for your parents. Could you describe how? I have no experience with this myself, but I’m sure others will chime in and try to help you work your way out of such triangulation. How is your relationship with your dad? Can you see that as a separate relationship, or is it all one big ball of emotions?

And now I'm trying to find my borders, my reaction has been to limit my visits, calls and texts to my mom, to speak to her through my dad more, and to be abrupt when she is negative or depressive, which is almost every conversation. I feel my throat tighten and my body tense, and I can't (yet?) fins my good boundaries. I find it virtually impossible to protect myself from absorbing her negativity.

Taking a break from or lowering contact with your mom is a good way to clear your head. Many members have found it necessary and healing to take some distance. It gives you the opportunity to disentangle your own mind and emotions from hers and to start getting in touch with your inner self.

Unfortunately, there is no magic button. Not one for taking away the pain, anger and grief, nor one for magically giving us the parent we so long to have.
The only way forward is looking inward, accepting what is and working on ourselves to improve what will be.
I hope some of this makes sense to you, Deer. I still struggle with putting words to all these things.
I also hope you will keep posting. Take your time to browse around. Read some of the other threads too, and feel free to share your thoughts in those threads. It really does help.

 

Libra.

[Deer]

Thanks, Libra. I feel really sad. At what I've lost, how I lied to myself to persuade myself my mom was right when she talked of how 'close' our family is. Of the shame I feel about things she did when I was a child, and my responses to shield myself, which were self sabotaging. And most of all, I feel sad as I start to see at the battered damaged self I am now...with my own fallout from it all.

Perhaps I'm just having a bad day, but things look quite bleak and hopeless. I've spent years trying to be different to her (i.e. A coper, little miss perfect, responsible, upbeat, clever, successful...) built a great persona, but it's mostly a reaction to my past and who I wanted her to be...so I feel like what did I really build and who am I really?

Is it ok to keep posting? I don't need to if its too much on one post...

Just needed to let that out...

[chronsweet]

But I have no choice... .I have to find a way... .I have to find a way through.

I am the living embodiment of this thought these past few days.  This post is very reflective of my trying to put words on what happened to me.  I am 43 and in my late 30's I came across the term BPD.   

[Libra]

Deer,

   

It is more than okay to keep posting. Please share whatever you feel the need to share. It may help getting it out. We are here for you, and I for one understand every word you just typed.

I've spent years trying to be different to her (i.e. A coper, little miss perfect, responsible, upbeat, clever, successful...) built a great persona, but it's mostly a reaction to my past and who I wanted her to be...so I feel like what did I really build and who am I really?

I'm going to have to chew on this one for a while. It is so true. I hadn't looked at it from that angle, but I did/am just the same.
Your true self is in you, though you may not yet be in touch with it. Give it time.
I think every child reacts to their parents in part. We may react harder than others. Maybe not all of that is bad? Some of it may well be part of our true self, regardless.

I felt the earth shifting beneath my feet when I truly started realizing what was going on.
It is okay to feel sad. It is okay to question everything. It takes time to process all of this.

Be kind for yourself today. Give yourself a hug, a hot cocoa, a nice walk, whatever. You deserve it.
 
 

Libra.

[Deer]

Thank you, Libra...you made me cry ... It's been a really hard week and my head has been spinning. I really needed that 'hug' so much.

I feel I found a kindred spirit.

Be very blessed.

Deer

[Harri]

built a great persona, but it's mostly a reaction to my past and who I wanted her to be...so I feel like what did I really build and who am I really?

Oh this is something I still struggle with.  We can go crazy thinking about who we could have been or would have been if only things were different.

We are who we are and we deal with it and work with it... and accept and love us.

something that helps me with this whole dilemma is this saying from alanon:

We are not responsible for how we came to be who we are as adults
but as adults we are responsible for whom we have become and for everything we say and do.

When I first read this, long ago, I was angry about it.  Eventually though, I came to find this saying to be liberating.  I made choices in my life that made me who i am today.  Some of those choices were based on misinformation and false information.  Others were made based on emotions and some based on reliable facts.  They all add up to who i am.. and I am okay.  I am not some random thing that happened and I am not the product of abuse... I was abused, that is all.   

I am me.

[CautiousHopeful]

Hi Deer,

Thank you so much for your post and all of the discussion. What you say about not being able to share your own experiences with your mom, including anything you feel vulnerable about, without her appropriating it into her own world or talking over it by continuing to talk only about herself, describes so precisely what I have experienced with my mother. Since I was a child I have listened to long sessions of her expressing her concerns and complaints about the world and her personal dramas, and I have always felt like I'm in the parent role, listening to her and trying to provide constructive advice (even as a young child!). There is major enmeshment there which I am trying to skilfully extricate myself from, but it is challenging.

Like you I am in my 40s, and when I recently read some descriptions of BPD and the kinds of conversations/dynamics that can happen with someone with BPD, I fully acknowledged for the first time that this is what fits my mother. I'd considered it previously but only superficially looked into it, but I can see now this is what it is. I can really understand what you are saying about the grief of coming to terms with this.

One thing that did recently help a bit was that I had read a humorous but insightful book that included reflections on life, and after finishing it I leant it to my mom just letting her know that I really enjoyed it. She actually loved it and has talked about it quite a lot. This seemed to be an indirect way of having a positive influence on her outlook on the world, without me having to try to directly confront/shift her orientation to the world which is often based on her intense anxiety about everything.

It is just a small thing, and although she continues with her BPD ways I find that sometimes small, indirect things like that help her to think/reflect a bit differently. My mother is still capable of extremely depressive, anxious and rageful states, and after Christmas I had to deal with a full on episode that really upset me after thinking things were getting better with her. So I don't want to give you false help that doing something like giving a book necessarily makes things better. But I've found that kind of indirectly approaching things seems to be at least a little helpful some of the time.

At the same time it's important not to go into rescue mode (something that I do chronically and really have to watch myself with), but I'm trying to kind of bring some balance to my mother which I'm hoping will be healing for both her and me (but trying so hard not to be enmeshed at the same time - argh so difficult!). I think what I've been trying to do is to avoid the directness that is too hard for someone with BPD to hear, but instead kind of indirectly encourage her to be able to see other ways of looking at things.

I have also resorted quite a bit to email in recent years as a mode of communication, and I have noticed that she tends to be more positive in this kind of communication. It is like it somehow is harder for her to fall into enmeshed dynamics via email. I also sent her a link to a website that specialises in good news (as opposed to all the bad news out there) and she liked it. I sent it saying something like, "I just found this website on good news and it was inspiring and a change from all the bad news we hear, and I thought you might like it too". As I don't know your mom I don't know what may or may not help with her, but just thought I'd mention those things in case they are helpful.

I think what comes through is that you really love her and want the best for her, but it has been so damaging the way things have played out, and you have really reached that point where you need to prioritise your own needs and that you can make some decisions around that to empower yourself. I totally get how challenging that is, and also processing the anger that a parent who was meant to parent you has essentially brought you up in a dynamic where you are in a caretaker role. I can relate to what you say about the distress of not being able to turn to your mom in times of need, when you might need support. But it is great that you are clearly seeing the patterns and are looking for ways to manage it. Hugs