Seeking assistance from those that made it work

[Troubled80]

Hello - I am seeking assistance from those with BPD who have been able to make their personal relationships with their partners, spouses, husbands and wives work.  I am in an 8 year relationship with someone who I beleive has BPD or has issues with a lot of the problem areas that mingle with BPD. We are on our third couples therapist. We are currently both in ind. therapy (we both come from trauma-filled childhoods) and in couples therapy. I recently moved out because I couldn't take it anymore and needed to focus on school. I'm also in a very intense graduate level program and I'm about 1/2 way through. I am planning on speaking to my partner about my concerns regarding BPD in our next session. I would be welcome to any suggestions. 

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Ozzie101]

Hello Troubled80! Welcome to the boards!

This is a supportive community here. Many members will be able to identify with what you're going through and you'll probably see a lot of familiar situations when reading about others' experiences. There are also a lot of tools and tips that you can use to improve your relationship.

If you had to point to one particular area of your relationship that's causing you the most pain and stress, what would it be?

Also, I would recommend you think very carefully before bringing up BPD with your partner. It's generally not recommended that you tell them because it can cause quite a bit of drama and very negative emotional responses. While it may seem like it would be a relief to them to hear what could be causing their behavior, it's more often than not just the opposite. It's much better if it comes from a professional.

And please feel free to read and post in other members' threads. That's another great way to learn and to help other people in turn!

[itsmeSnap]

Hey Troubled80!

welcome to the board!

There's a really nice pinned thread about success stories here:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=113820.0

Its a long thread so yeah 

Good outcomes are definitely possible. Many of the stories have in common a "defining event" and a willingness from both parties to work through their own issues along with the relationship; remember a relationship is a team effort!

I agree with ozzie, if you have concerns about it I would suggest bringing it up to the therapist first to know their opinion and have them guide you through how to approach it with your wife.

So what caused the moving out? You mentioned you couldn't take it anymore, how long has "the thing" been going on?

[Troubled80]

The "thing" has been a few years at the least - maybe 5-6 of the years. Honestly it feels crappy saying that. Ive been in personal therapy for a number of those years - trying to learn how to interact with my wife so things wouldn't go off the rails, needless to say that didn't work. By off the rails I mean yelling, screaming, throwing things, self harm - and the such. things have gotten much better but sometimes it just feels like we keep going forward and then backward over and over. We are on our 3rd couples therapist - and are each currently seeing an individual therapist.  The second couples therapist we saw told me she thought my partner had BPD due to some kind of "test" my partner "failed" when we were in a session. the therapist did some sort of self-soothing test or something, and my partner was not able to self sooth, nor did she take responsibility for not doing the "test" right, she kind of lashed out at the therapist. I went back later, alone and spoke to the therapist about what she thought was going on. she told me about BPD and that she didn't think it was treatable. After - i went to the COS training and the lecturer said many of the families they work with who don't mesh well with the program have many of the issues related to BPD and the other personality trait disorders. and i started to think this might be the issue. I read a lot  and went on another message board.  much of what i read matched how i was feeling, and what our relationship was like.   

About two years ago I realized my parter's behavior matched a lot of the behavior patterns that happen with BPD. First i saw a book she brought home, and she told me the BPD part of the title didn't apply to her, then I went through a therapy training session re: circle of security and i realized much of the behaviors I was watching in the videos between parent and kid mirrored mine and my partners relationship; push/pull love, saying something hurtful or outright mean and then being nice, and trying to touch me in gentile ways, temper - 0-60 in 1 second, threatening self harm and suicide if i left, throwing things, not taking any blame for anything while saying i never take the blame, calling herself a victim after she's hit me or thrown something at me, or yelling at me, taking on what makes me upset - like if i tell her I'm hurt by something, she says she is hurt by the same thing and that i do it to her, after i moved out she has started ramping up the financial manipulation. but I keep going back so i realize I'm a big part of the problem - which i am working on in my therapy sessions 

Granted - i don't think she has done any self harm for about a year and she hasn't threatened to harm herself in a while so that is a very good thing.

However, the event that caused me to move out was that she discontinued our couples therapy, and we had agreed to start it back up after a certain date. We never talked about it, we never started back up again until after I moved out. Granted I do share some of the responsibility in that I get nervous about talking to her regarding sensitive subjects and then i avoid those conversations because of the difficulty that happens when she gets pissed. - most of the time she is an amazing person, smart funny kind - lots of great qualities but when she looses her temper she can be a really ___ty person.

Shes threatened to kick me out, for a while it happened every time we fought. The most recent fight was really bad, she threw a couple of luggage bags at me and then a vacuum that was laying around. I grew up in a DV house with lots of violence at a really young age, as i got older it was more about the emotional and mental abuse. the fact that we stopped couples therapy, and the fights continuing like they were - made me realize if i didn't do something drastic nothing was ever going to change and I cant live like that again - I was super depressed as a kid and tried to kill myself a couple of times. I'm currently in a difficult graduate program and am halfway through. sometimes i think she doesn't even realize what she is doing but Ive been able to recognize patterns lately that make me beleive that 1) she might not know - but she might have an idea something is amiss and 2)she is really good at being manipulative.

For example, when i moved out she said she wanted to get out and meet people - i was fine, i think its a great idea about her going out with friends and such - but she downloaded Tinder on her phone. She wouldn't have told me she downloaded tinder but i asked her a direct question (we've also had to have conversations detailing what is lying - versus not lying, omissions when you know a persons assumption to be true, white lies, leading a person to an assumption but not directly telling them what to beleive - like i said she a freaking smart person)  and she said yes. The way she told me about the reasons she wanted to use that program, and then how she spoke about her reasoning in therapy - were completely different. in therapy she said she wanted to use it because she was unsure about us and wanted to be able to move on if necessary. - completely different apparent motivations. Another thing, is that she will tell me something didn't happen, like i didn't remember the conversations we had the right way. or she will say something happened that did not happen. For awhile i thought i was going crazy, then i started my graduate program and realized i wasn't crazy because my classmates didn't think i was crazy, my therapist didn't think i was crazy, and my super difficult program (that most people hate) became my reprieve.

Anyways, another example is - recently I told her I wanted to talk about the recent fight we had in therapy. She agreed, so we went to the session and all of a sudden i realized she was talking about how i don't take responsibility for the fights (and i do - if only to just end the fight). After about 20 minutes - I realized what was happening, and mentioned that we had had a fight recently where she threw the luggage bags and that yes, i did throw one back at her after she had thrown them at me - i lost my temper and should not have done that. I left after i threw one of the bags back at her. She has abandonment issues so sometimes leaving can make things very bad but i cant be in the house when she has lost her temper like that. its a huge trigger for me. The therapist than started to try and get her to take some of the responsibility for throwing the items at me, and we hit a wall - that was the last 15-20 minutes of the session

If anyone is still reading this post, congrats - you are a trooper. If anyone has tips, tricks, or anything helpful i would love to know it. I realize this is a rambling post and pretty discombobulated - thanks for reading and if anyone can offer help I would love it.

[itsmeSnap]

If anyone is still reading this post, congrats - you are a trooper.

Just doing my part I guess 

Lots of things going on in your life so I'll stick with just a few at a time ok? I did read the whole thing and I'm glad you got to get things off your chest, the details do help us give you a more nuanced approach to things.

You mention a few situations that involve your safety and hers (physical lashing out, self harm...), so as a "just in case" I'd like for you to take a look at the Safety workbooks we got here:

Domestic Violence Safety Plan (.pdf) Suicidal Ideation Safety Plan (.pdf)

Dense stuff I know. it has a workbook style, you can check the info and decide to work through it as we go along with the replies.

Granted - i don't think she has done any self harm for about a year and she hasn't threatened to harm herself in a while so that is a very good thing.

Good to know, how are you holding up on your end? Being the "strong partner" (as in mentally, emotionally, not necessarily physically though exercise does help with self esteem a lot) is kind of a requisite for being in a conflict-prone relationship like BPD.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/what-does-it-take-be-relationship

The relationship stress coupled with school (you mention being enrolled in a difficult program) can do a number on you so I'd like to make sure everything is manageable for you on that front first.

she told me about BPD and that she didn't think it was treatable

It can be quite hard, and up to a few years ago thought untreatable. DBT has recently become an option to manage difficult cases, as it was developed specifically with BPD in mind. Some of the tools here are derived from DBT skills/workshops so its not just for those suffering, but to us partners in managing our own issues while in a relationship.

Have you heard of it/tried it? what does your therapist think about it?

I realize this is a rambling post and pretty discombobulated - thanks for reading and if anyone can offer help I would love it.

It's fine, I did the same thing when I first got here.

Just as a "signpost" in case others also want to chime in, what are your expectations/hopes for improvement? what does a "good relationship" with her look like to you?

[Turkish]

As Ozzie101 said, it wouldn't be a good idea to mention BPD. This is a common desire.  I did it and it wasn't received well.  This might help:

1.05 | Telling Someone You Think They Have BPD

I'm also concerned about your safety. 

[Troubled80]

Thanks, I will take a look at the materials posted on here. I want the discussion to be successful so I will hold off on talking about BPD in our sessions. but I need to try and come up with strategies to address it.

I moved out and am living separately. I haven't told her where I'm living so I'm not worried about my physical safety while I'm at my apt. I only worry when things get physical, and they don't get that crazy whenever we fight - in fact most of the time it doesn't get that bad because I can remedy the situation a good amount of the time.

I'm a little worried because my partner told me this weekend that her therapist is telling her to see another therapist who does energy work, meditation and dabbles with EMDT. I did EMDT as a kid and if it is not done well it can go bad. I'm a little worried that she is subtly maneuvering this therapist into thinking she doesn't have serious issues to work out and that she took care of everything as a youth in therapy. Im curious to see what our couples therapist thinks after our last session.

[itsmeSnap]

Im curious to see what our couples therapist thinks after our last session.

how did it go? any updates?

[Troubled80]

We went to the therapy session and it went well.  I spoke about what she does that makes me think she has BPD. the most recent thing was that I feel she was manipulative in the different discussions we had over "tinder".  I felt she famed the discussion one way because we were alone, and she wanted a particular result and another way, when we were in therapy that framed her as confused and vulnerable. While i don't doubt she is confused and vulnerable, I objected to the different discussions and said I felt I was being manipulated. We still have more to discuss on this particular subject because of the large subjects it touches - trust and manipulation or subtle trickery. but it was a start.

I also spoke about her push/pull kind of love, currently we are in a - "Troubled can do no wrong phase" - but I know this can change at a drop of a hat. There are several types of issues that come up with this issue but a difficult one is when she is dis-regulated and needs/wants comfort. I am a co-dependent who is really uncomfortable with outward displays of "negative" emotion, and i grew up in a DV house. So - its difficult for me to comfort her when she is really dis-regulated (laying on floor, sobbing uncontrollably, sometimes saying things that hint at a very bleak world view - that then makes me worry about her safety).

When she is just crying or upset I will comfort her - but then after I feel like im drained and I don't have energy for studying, or doing anything.

And there is another thing i haven't been able to put my finger on but I don't think its a good sign. When I am with her for long periods of time, I feel - something - like a thin, permanent, layer of stress - It might be the result of feeling like Ive been walking on eggshells for years. but when I go back to my apartment - i feel better, I feel relaxed, i don't feel like anyone is looking over my shoulder all the time, contradicting me - in small ways, innumerable, and almost insignificant ways if looked at individually, but aggregate - just feels crushing.  for example - she used to tell me I was pulling out of the driveway wrong. All I know is that after hanging out with her much of the weekend and then much of Tuesday, exhausted me. I went back to my apt yesterday with the intent to stay away for a few days, and I felt so much better. so much less stressed - even though Im currently living with a stranger.

 

[itsmeSnap]

And there is another thing i haven't been able to put my finger on but I don't think its a good sign. When I am with her for long periods of time, I feel - something - like a thin, permanent, layer of stress - It might be the result of feeling like Ive been walking on eggshells for years. but when I go back to my apartment - i feel better, I feel relaxed, i don't feel like anyone is looking over my shoulder all the time, contradicting me - in small ways, innumerable, and almost insignificant ways if looked at individually, but aggregate - just feels crushing.

It's definitely tough to constantly have to "handle" things. I did feel something sort of similar with my exgf event though things were mostly ok, so I can imagine how that would go when things are difficult.

Have you thought about a particular timeframe to start seeing "improvements" with her or is the separate living arrangement something you're considering long term?

Speaking of long term, how are you doing with school? I ask because its something that's important for you. how does it integrate with your plans for the future? school then relationship, mix and match?

[Troubled80]

We went to another session where we were supposed to talk about what we want to get out of therapy. my partner has given me - between the lines - kind of things that indicate she doesn't think we can repair our relationship, like telling me she wants me to take one of the cats long term and that she cant continue in a relationship where there isnt a certainty as to whether we have kids, along her timeline. Which granted - I get it - that she wants to have kids. Its like she wants me to pull the rip cord on our relationship - because even though she knows that's whats going to happen she cant do it.

In therapy she said she thinks that even though she is still to work on things, she thinks we should make our separation final - not get divorced - but she wants to start dating. - translation: she wants to start trying to get pregnant, while we still try to "work on things" - while she doesn't address what is very likely BPD. My therapist spoke to her therapist and our couples therapist with hypotheticals b/c my partner STILL hasen't signed a release for them to talk to one another. during this exercise in hypotheticals they all basically said that the behavior patterns would indicate BPD although none could be certain b/c my partner has not "done any of the work" with her personal CBT therapist, and so my partner has resumed seeing her other therapist, the energy worker and EMDR person. 

It's just that it really sucks. I had a scholarship at the beginning of law school. I lost that scholarship due to poor grades. I'm not saying I would be at the top of the class but I bet I would still have that scholarship if it wasn't for the stress related to our fights, which were timed so well before I had tests - which i gather were her "tests" to see either - what i valued more, or where she placed in my "importance list". I feel used. Like  a cheap hooker. Like i was used as an emotional crutch that has now outlived its usefulness and is being discarded so she can start dating.

She called me after the therapy session to say she was sorry. she never really said what specifically she was sorry for - she just said she was sorry, and the stuff she said in therapy was not what she wanted to say. What am i supposed to do with that? she said sorry but - couldn't even say directly what she was sorry for. I feel like i'm in a carnival fun house - nothing is as it seems. I feel like all this time and effort that ive placed in our relationship was just a big-ole- waste of time.

[itsmeSnap]

she cant continue in a relationship where there isnt a certainty as to whether we have kids, along her timeline. Which granted - I get it - that she wants to have kids

One thing I know and is mentioned constantly is that pwBPD crave consistency but they are so very bad at giving it and also receiving it, they think "normal" or "stable" means there's something going on, and its probably a bad thing they think. My exgf did that to me, even though she feared we'd be chaos, she consistently stirred things up. She did so precisely to know if I wouldn't be bothered by it.

There's ways around that, but there's always going to be ups and downs, its not going to be "like in the movies" where things resolve and you live happily ever after, but then again I don't think any relationship is really like that, just BPD is "relationship things on steroids" if that makes sense.

I feel like i'm in a carnival fun house - nothing is as it seems.

Yep, can definitely feel like that. Even if it doesn't seem like it, there's a reason for the things they do, and its always very counter intuitive. Push you away so you take them back, mess things up so you show your love by saving them, things like that.

I feel like all this time and effort that ive placed in our relationship was just a big-ole- waste of time.

I chased a girl I liked back in college (not my BPD ex), I neglected my final semester to spend time with her. I flunked two classes and ended up "postponing" graduation for 4 years.

That was my choice, and I don't regret it  I "wasted" a lot of time, but that's life sometimes, we make choices and things don't go as we'd hoped.

Now that I'm long separated from my ex I think even though it was rough I learned a lot and enjoyed her company when things were good a lot too. I've been thinking about whether I would go back with her given the chance, and its always a probably .

She will always be that sweet person I first met, trapped with her own demons. Anyway, I am separated from her now, she will find her way, they often do, and it often leads her right back  (I've been separated from her a number of times over two years, always seems final until it isn't, not holding my breath on it though).

All that is to say that you both get your say on what the relationship (and life) means and what you want out of it, she will make her decisions (as she has with the "finalizing things") so it helps being ready for odd things on her end as well.

If you're not comfortable you might want to figure out if you need time, if you need space or something else (like what happens after graduation? would work affect it too? would starting a family make things unstable as well?). I know, lots of things with no easy answers, that's for you to figure out on your own pace. you'd be the one living your life, make it a good one!

Anyway, I don't think you've mentioned kids before, has this been an issue you two talked about before?

[an0ught]

Hi Troubled80,

sounds like you are taking care of yourself. However hard having moved out certainly helps with boundaries. I never moved out but I did find a safe space where I could flee to when things got too bad.

One thing I know and is mentioned constantly is that pwBPD crave consistency but they are so very bad at giving it and also receiving it, they think "normal" or "stable" means there's something going on, and its probably a bad thing they think. My exgf did that to me, even though she feared we'd be chaos, she consistently stirred things up. She did so precisely to know if I wouldn't be bothered by it.

This can be so infuriating. Emotions, particularly fear get slightly out of control, thinking stops and instincts take over. And these instincts are often twisted, doing the opposite of what a rationale person would do. It is really the core of the illness - lack of emotional regulation and then creating an environment that is hostile, often through invalidation of the most supporting person around.

What sounds promising is that she is going to therapy. There seems to be some awareness of issues. Also she did say sorry - you may find this not satisfying but it indicates at least some level of awareness and empathy. These changes take time - dysfunctional behavior learned over decades will take time to unlearn. In some way it is not really unlearning but filling gaps.

Your stress response is worrying - take good care of yourself. Your stability matters! Eventually you need to feel safe with her. Your sense of safety is determined by your boundaries. There are good workshops here on how to go about them but no matter what you read - putting the first ones in place can be scary (you moved out so you probably know  ). Done right (please check the boundary workshops before attaching preconceived ideas to the term) they tend to have significant and lasting impact on restoring respect in the relationship. Having a sense that the boundaries are fully under your control will affect your sense of safety.

You are doing a lot of couples therapy. Generally this is not so helpful as it tends to be problem identification and problem solving oriented and tends to overload the pwBPD and backfire. Considering however that you did move out keeping things moving following established patterns may still be helpful. Keep in mind that problems are often the reflection of inner turmoil of the pwBPD. Understanding of facts matters little - understanding of emotions is everything. Please check out the workshops on validation and practice whenever you can (feel free to use it on everyone around you). Validation connects and having moved out this is important. Validation helps her to become calmer. Self validation is something she will to have to learn by herself but having a validating partner does help here too.

[Troubled80]

We've spoken about kids before. Before I started being more firm on the no, it was always ended ok if I eventually broke down and said "well, maybe". It's essentially something we've never been able to get over. At a certain point, I was considering it - but now I cant even consider it if she isn't willing to address her BPD.  (shes in therapy but she is working with someone who does energy work and some EMDR, and she hasn't signed a disclosure waiver for the therapists so they can talk to one another, which is important to me b/c ive read that BPD people can manipulate therapists (which is what i kind of think may be happening with her current therapist). We've addressed the waiver issue twice in therapy and she took the waiver form but didn't sign it.

Because of my childhood I wont put a kid through what I went through. I thought she didnt want to put a kid through what she went through either but it seems like she is actually willing to do that. And that is one of the toughest things I think - I know she wants kids, I know she wants them to feel safe but without addressing her BPD issues I cant see that happening. Its like she had this idea from childhood that she could do it better if she had a kid and so its like she wants to right the wrongs of her childhood by having a kid.

She is seeing an individual therapist, who I don't know if she is trained for BPD work - or working with that type of person.

during our last session, she said if we are going to break up - we should just do that b/c she want to "move on and start dating".

and its not like i can really be mad at her - she essentially told me I was her emotional support, and thats why we were still together. I guess i feel used, like a tissue used to sop up some blood or some crap - and then tossed when I refused to "play the game" anymore. And it sucks. My first year of law school was essentially spent giving her the support, she needed (and it was often during test prep periods, or when I had something big coming up - coincidentally - she would always need to be placed first, I love her more - she is the most important thing - she was even jealous of my dog) - when she would pick fights, I would stay up with her until whatever "it" was, was resolved and put her first for everything. I missed keeping a scholarship because my grades were too poor that first year, because I endeavored to put her first above all other things. Now - all she wants to do is start dating again. Shes going to go out and get pregnant by the first person she finds. I know i shouldn't take it personally - its her illness. but I also feel like my childhood was marred by that BS line of reasoning. We could never blame my step dad b/c he was an alcoholic. and so we all lived with that alcoholism, and what it did to the family because we "had" to have him around.


But again - I dont even know why Im typing this. I know i have to pull the rip cord on our relationship because Im not willing to have kids in our current state of our relationship because of the instability BPD presents. I know she will vilify me to the one person, I can go to for "adult advice".

I spoke to my therapist yesterday about my partners desire to "move on and start dating" and she said i have to try and view it through the lens of BPD. She's likely right. multiple therapists have said she exhibits behavior patterns that would fall into the BPD universe. I guess the hard thing is that it never was about me. It was always about filling that hole in her heart - the next person will be about filling that hole in her heart.