Surprise visit from my family...

[stolencrumbs]

I'm bracing for impact here. Things have been relatively calm the last few weeks with my wife, and we've had some not terrible email discussions about important things. Weekends tend to be challenging, but there was some reason to hope that this weekend would be better.

Then, this morning, my mom calls and tells me her and my dad are coming to see me tomorrow. She wasn't asking. She was just informing me. There is a long history of how she came to be just informing me instead of asking me. They haven't visited me in about four years (I have visited them.) My mom would ask to come all the time, and I would always delay or decline or postpone. Earlier on, this was me hiding how terrible my marriage was, and the fact that I didn't live at home. They've known for a couple of years now, to some extent, how bad things are, and that has been the reason they can't come visit. So she would try to plan a visit, and I would say maybe, and then it wouldn't happen. A lot of this is absolutely my fault. I would occasionally discuss it with my wife, and it was always a huge fight. So then I would just not discuss it with her and find some way to put my parents off another time. I wasn't really open with them, I let them think it was all my wife's fault, I wasn't open with my wife, and often decided for her that she wouldn't want my parents to visit without actually asking her or talking to her about it. I think I handled it all pretty badly, overall.

Anyway, they're tired of me putting them off and making excuses and making tentative plans that get cancelled, etc. So they decided they'd just make their own plan and tell me about it the day before. (My mom didn't want to tell me at all, but my dad convinced her to give me a day's notice.) So I told my wife about their plans. Understandably, this has not gone well. It triggers lots of bad feelings for her. She feels excluded, left out, like she doesn't have a voice, invisible, etc. I can understand that. I can also understand my parents' perspective. And I'm in the middle. Again. And history suggests I suck at being in the middle. Ugh.

[boatingwoman]

By relatively calm for a few weeks, does that mean you are back in the house?

How many weeks exactly has it been calm? What is your definition of calm?

Good luck. 

[stolencrumbs]

By relatively calm for a few weeks, does that mean you are back in the house?

How many weeks exactly has it been calm? What is your definition of calm?

Good luck. 

Thanks. No, not back at home. I actually haven't been there at all in almost two weeks, which is maybe part of the calm. I think it's been two weeks or calm, maybe a bit longer. By "calm," I guess I mean nothing's been broken, no endless texts/emails, no suicide threats, no threats to burn the house down.

[stolencrumbs]

I guess my ill-formed question is how bad should I feel about this? I could probably convince my parents not to come. But I would like to see them. And I haven't seen my wife the last two weekends, and we had no plans to do anything this weekend. And I didn't make this plan without her or behind her back. My parents made it without her, and without me. But I realize that they did so because of the way I handled things for a long time. And in a normal life with my wife, this would not be okay. But this isn't a normal life. I don't know.

[babyducks]

Hi again stolencrumbs

  Understandably, this has not gone well.

Hmmmm.   I am wondering exactly what's understandable about this not going well?   Why is this understandable?

Let's take a cold clear eyed steely look at what's valid and what's invalid in all of this for a minute.

We talk about validation here.    Validating our pwBPD's feelings.    Validation doesn't mean appeasement.    and it should never mean Validating the Invalid.  Validation is a lot more complicated than saying 'I get how you are feeling.' 

An event has occurred in your life that your wife is uncomfortable with.   Valid.    It's your job to fix it, or manage it, or make it better.   Invalid.    Your parents want to see you.    Valid.    A visit with your parents must include your wife in some way and it must go smoothly.    Invalid.

Don't Validate the Invalid. 

If you convince your parents not to come, you are Validating your wife's belief that it's not possible for you to share your affections, and attention between multiple people.   Don't do that.

If you attempt to manage this so neither your parents or your wife feels distress, you are validating the idea that you are responsible for protecting other's emotions.    Don't do that.

I think it's great that your parents are willing to take this step to open lines of honest communications with you.  What a blessing!   What an opportunity!   They are coming all this way to see you.   How wonderful.   

You know the other part of validation?   It applies to US too.   Don't invalidate yourself.   
 

I guess my ill-formed question is how bad should I feel about this? I could probably convince my parents not to come. But I would like to see them.

You would like to see them.    Valid.   They are your parents.    They are making an effort to reach out.     Validate yourself.     Seriously.

My sincere answer to how bad should you feel about this?    I think you owe your Mom and Dad an apology for putting them off and making excuses.    I suspect they will accept your apology because they …. oh gave birth to you and are springing a surprise visit on you because they miss you.   I would not beat yourself to death over it.   You made some poor choices before you figured out things about your wife and your marriage.   You are learning and committed to doing better.     

my two cents.
'ducks

[formflier]

I'm in camp with Babyducks on this one..

I'm not a fan of your parents tactics nor am I a fan of your tactics putting them off.

So...on that count I would suggest that you let it be a wash, own your part and apologize to them.  A good part of an apology is recognition of what you should have done...which is communicate honestly..directly...with your parents

Hmmm...I'm going to suggest this has very little to do with your wife.  I'm going to suggest that it has a lot to do with "your reaction" to your wife and related circumstances.

I say this because you only get a vote on "your reaction".  

Spending time with your parents and opening direct, honest, open communications with them could be a major step for you in living a healthier...more authentic life.

Thoughts?

Practical steps with your wife.  I would ask her/invite her to do things with you and your parents.  Respect her decision either way...don't make a big deal of it either way.

FF

[stolencrumbs]

Thanks ‘ducks and ff. Wife is going off the rails on this. The main issue for her seems to be that I did not consult her or consider her. I’m not operating as a team. Her feelings should matter. This is not okay. Struggling to think straight about it. I appreciate your input.

[stolencrumbs]

A visit with your parents must include your wife in some way and it must go smoothly.    Invalid.

I guess this is the one I’m struggling with. Not so much that the visit should include her, but that the planning of it should. It was “sprung” on her, and that predictably triggered bad feelings. It made her feel like she doesn’t have a voice in things. And I know this is an issue for her. I can validate that feeling, right? It doesn’t mean I have to try to make it better, but I can see and understand her being hurt by that. I think. Or maybe that’s already going down the rabbit hole.

[empath]

As I understand it, you didn't have any opportunity to give input about your parents' decision to visit. Neither you or your wife were included in their choices. It doesn't seem that you are actually in the middle here. It is understandable to feel surprised (in a bad way) by the visit because it is a surprise.

I had a good experience when I decided to tell my family what was happening on the inside of my marriage. They've been supportive and caring for me through the past few years. It has been good for me not to feel like I need to hide the things that are going on from them. Less isolation was a relief.

[formflier]

It made her feel like she doesn’t have a voice in things.

I really don't think you should go down this rabbit hole.

She DOES NOT get a vote on YOUR relationship with your parents.  You DO NOT get a vote on her relationship with her parents.

While it would be nice if everyone could cooperate and everyone could be happy...her being "happy" with planning or "unhappy" does not "trump" your relationship with your parents.

Many (most) pwBPD have issues here.

It's been four years..that a four year break is not sufficient...should tell you something.

If she had 2 days notice..would she be happy?  4 days?  22.5 days?  You know the answer.

No intention to be unusually blunt or mean...but I don't see much upside in you expending energy to try and fix this.  Validate it once...maybe twice then move along.

FF

[stolencrumbs]

Please stay blunt. I appreciate it.

I feel like I’ve neglected my relationship with my family too long. I do see them, but not as much as I’d like. And it’s always been an issue. This board has opened my eyes to how common that is. I think I should do more to nurture my relationship with my parents. They aren’t getting younger. And I don’t think the surprise visit is the best tactic, but whatever. It’s what they did, and I can understand why.

I guess what I’m going to attempt to do is to treat my relationship with my parents as being exactly as important as I think it is. And I think I should spend as much time with them when they’re here as I can, even if they’re not here under ideal circumstances. I’ve already tried to validate, so I suppose I’ll just do what I think is right and leave her to handle being upset by it. Again, doesn’t feel right, but I’m trying...

[formflier]

I’ve already tried to validate, so I suppose I’ll just do what I think is right and leave her to handle being upset by it. Again, doesn’t feel right, but I’m trying...

Yes...double triple bazillion YES!

Validate...move on and let her deal with it in her own way. 

Consistently doing this will be good.  She may not like it.  Only doing things she "likes" hasn't worked out...so try something new.

Hang in there...you can do this!

FF

[formflier]

And  "leave the door open" for her to be part of this.

Don't be pushy about it but let her know she is wanted..invited...and then let her choose.  Don't save her from her choices.


   


FF

[GaGrl]

OK...two separate conversations to be handled here..

Parents --

I love you, I need your support, I want to see you. At this time in my life, I need you, and look forward to your visit. I would appreciate in future more notice, so that I can plan and prepare for your visit -- my relationship with my still-wife is tenuous, and if requires careful management. "

With your wife --

 " I love you. I love my family. During this time of separation, I especially need the love and support of my family. I will have them in town this weekend -- it is good for me. "

Not to say Yes be respective conversations might go down the rabbit hole, but...stick to your central values message.

And remember -- "No" is a complete sentence.

[stolencrumbs]

OK...two separate conversations to be handled here..

Parents --

I love you, I need your support, I want to see you. At this time in my life, I need you, and look forward to your visit. I would appreciate in future more notice, so that I can plan and prepare for your visit -- my relationship with my still-wife is tenuous, and if requires careful management. "

With your wife --

 " I love you. I love my family. During this time of separation, I especially need the love and support of my family. I will have them in town this weekend -- it is good for me. "

Not to say Yes be respective conversations might go down the rabbit hole, but...stick to your central values message.

And remember -- "No" is a complete sentence.

I'm good with my parents. They are very loving and supportive, and at this point they have a pretty good idea of what's going on. I don't have a problem having that conversation with them. (Then I need to stick to my end of that--that we will make plans and stick to them.)

Your message is the thing I tried to communicate to my wife. I've now gotten about 30 (31, 32, 33, as I've been typing) texts from her. She is now telling me this is it. If I see them, I am discarding her and disrespecting her and it will be the last time. Also that she will never see them again. She will never be in the same room with them. She is telling me she is calm, but I sure can't tell it from the texts.

The bottom line is that my parents are coming tomorrow. That is happening. I am going to spend time with them. That is important to me. I don't think I've handled all of this very well, and I don't think my parents have acted ideally, but I don't see anything that is an unforgivable sin here, and I'm not going to treat it as such.

This is part of what is hard for me. My parents would forgive just about anything I did. And I know that. I'm pretty sure I'm in Trump territory with them. I could shoot someone on 5th avenue and my mom would eventually be bragging to people about what a good shot I was. I've taken advantage of their love for me, because I knew I could. I don't want to keep doing that.  

[Cat Familiar]

So tell your wife that y’all are going to your favorite bistro at 6 p.m. and suggest that she wear that dress you like.

Then she’s off the hook after that dinner and you can escort your parents around town the following day.

[babyducks]

I guess this is the one I’m struggling with. Not so much that the visit should include her, but that the planning of it should. It was “sprung” on her, and that predictably triggered bad feelings.

conflating what should happen in a more normal marriage and the what does happen in your marriage will add to your confusion.

in a normal close cordial marriage and with healthy individuals with good personal boundaries, planning should have happened between your parents and you and your wife.    absolutely.   

It didn't happen for all the reasons you listed.    It's not a perfect situation.    It's not ideal.    It is what it is.   No situation is ever perfect enough.

I've now gotten about 30 (31, 32, 33, as I've been typing) texts from her. She is now telling me this is it. If I see them, I am discarding her and disrespecting her and it will be the last time. Also that she will never see them again. She will never be in the same room with them. .

Yes of course your wife is saying this.    She is dsyregulated.   Her harmfully intense emotions are very much in evidence.    That's going to happen.  Isolating and blocking behaviors are very common with people who have disordered thinking.     And yes it is very hard to listen to.    Allocate a certain amount of listening and then allow her to self soothe.

My experience was, I could never validate my way out of a dysregulation.   My experience suggests the way out of a dysregulation is calm clear boundaries.

I like Gagrl's suggestion.   Stick to your central values message.    Repeat it just enough for clarity not enough to get entrenched in an argument.

It's not an ideal situation,   you would have preferred more notice yourself.   Still your parents are important to you, this is not an unforgivable sin.    You are going to see your parents.   She's welcome to come along or not as she decides.    This is not a choice between her and them, you love them all.

I hope you have a nice and restful visit with your Mom and Dad.

[Enabler]

Out of interest, is your W rude to your parents face?

My mum finds it far far easier to arrange things directly with my W especially re seeing the grand kids than going through me. My mum gets to speak to the mask which is far more amenable as my W doesn't want to outside world to know 'her true self'. I've actively encouraged my Mum to have a direct relationship as it circumvents any drama that may be occurring in the relationship.

It's been a good way of removing myself from potential drama triangles and giving my W the illusion she has control.

Enabler 

[Notwendy]

And in a normal life with my wife, this would not be okay. But this isn't a normal life.


It's not ideal but it is OK. From my point of view, I'd be a bit irked by an unplanned visit from the in laws,  but it's not the end of the world. If they did it frequently, I'd have to set some boundaries. If they haven't seen us in ages, it's not something to make a big deal over.

Sometimes people have unexpected plans and they try to visit when they can. I also think your parents considered this because they felt they had no choice.

IMHO, it is normal, in fact, expected - ( unless parents are horribly abusive) that when you marry someone, they also have a family that they want to see. I think it's not normal to cut family off for no valid reason. If you read the family boards there are several heartbreaking posts from mothers whose sons have cut or limited contact due to the BPD wife. It fits the Karpan triangle. My BPD mother does this. She sees people as either on her side or not her side. It's black and white thinking- if you see your parents you don't love me? That's not normal.

Think about this from your parents' perspective. They must be desperate to do this. They must really want to see you. Can you put yourself in their shoes? Here's their son, living in his car, in a tough marriage. Yes, they are loving and forgiving- I think this is why it's easier on you to be tougher on them. To deny them when there's conflict between you and your wife over seeing them. But they don't deserve this. It would probably make them happy to see you. I hope you enjoy your visit even though there is likely to be a reaction from your wife. However, to not see them is to reinforce her behaviors to get you to stop.

[Enabler]

I think this is why it's easier on you to be tougher on them. To deny them when there's conflict between you and your wife over seeing them. But they don't deserve this.

Very nicely put Notwendy. I have irked on the side of denying my mother access because it was easier to fob her off than face more conflict with my W. Removing myself and allowing my Mum to directly face my W a) yielded better results in more access to the kids b) less conflict.

Enabler

[formflier]

My Mom has figured out she gets more information/access/grandkid time by going directly to FFw than asking me to negotiate/intervene.

I used to try to "manage the relationship" and then a few years ago totally backed out of it.

Everyone seems much happier about it.

FF

[Notwendy]

That would work with my BPD mom too. She likes to feel in control. My father was ill for a long time and didn't have the chance to get his favorite foods. Once I brought him some ice cream and put it in their fridge. I mean HER fridge. She had a fit that I put ice cream for him in there without asking her.

It seems trite but it makes sense. She wants to be the primary person to him. Add to this poor boundaries and black and white thinking. It wasn't about ice cream. I didn't adhere to how she wants to be related to as his wife. She is very particular about how people do this. It's also about control- she's more comfortable with control.

If I asked my father to give me something or buy me something ( as a teen or child ) I had to have permission from my mother. He was not allowed to decide on his own ( or there'd be issues)

I think it's a great idea for your parents to relate to your wife one on one. They may have to grit their teeth and smile while doing this if they aren't pleased with her. It takes away from the triangle. Also acknowledges her "position" as your #1. I guess if someone has a poor sense of self, they need to have this acknowledged.

Yes Enabler, so much easier for my father to tell me no than to tell my mother. He'd also get much angrier at me than at her- well because he could. I didn't dysregulate. I have much empathy for the family members who don't deserve to be cast aside. I think it is important to stand up for the relationship with extended family as breaking these ties doesn't really help the marriage issues and it is hurtful to them.

[Enabler]

They may have to grit their teeth and smile while doing this if they aren't pleased with her. It takes away from the triangle. Also acknowledges her "position" as your #1. I guess if someone has a poor sense of self, they need to have this acknowledged.

I'm guessing your mom was different to my W. My W is more conflict avoidant. But it disarms her of her usual tools, like vagueness, procrastination, double blinds, avoiding commitment and generally swerving decisions. It's like a dear caught in headlights, she's torn between preservation of the mask (perfect outward social appearance) and avoiding the uncomfortableness of my mum being around. I still receive some fallout from her committing to Mum seeing the kids but really there's nothing for me to answer now. My W recently said "I worry about asking your mum to babysit as it looks like I go out all the time because every time I ask her I'm going out"... that's because ummmmmm you're going out all the time.

I don't need to get involved between them, so I don't.

Enabler 

[stolencrumbs]

conflating what should happen in a more normal marriage and the what does happen in your marriage will add to your confusion.

in a normal close cordial marriage and with healthy individuals with good personal boundaries, planning should have happened between your parents and you and your wife.    absolutely.   

It didn't happen for all the reasons you listed.    It's not a perfect situation.    It's not ideal.    It is what it is.   No situation is ever perfect enough.

Yes, this definitely adds to my confusion, compounded by the fact that my wife pushes this. She will list all kinds of marriage values and talk about the importance of the marriage and how I ought to start acting like I'm in the marriage I want to have. So she gets me hooked into thinking about what I would want and how I would act in a more normal situation, and then uses that to criticize what I'm doing or what is happening in this particular situation. 

As far as my wife and my mom talking directly, that is what used to happen, and I think it would be my mom's preference. It's how she operates with my brother and sister-in-law, and I'm pretty sure it's how she operated with her mother-in-law. Anyway, her talking with my wife did not go well. I don't think they've spoken at all in years. My mom kept making efforts for a while, but eventually just kind of gave up. My wife can be pretty ugly to her face, is especially ugly in email, and it was always 50/50 at best whether my wife was going to go through with any plan she did make.

I think Notwendy is right that part of what my wife wants is for everyone to acknowledge that she is #1 in my life. She gets very upset when she feels like that isn't being recognized or acknowledged.

My parents are on their way now. My wife ended her texting last night by telling me goodbye forever. If I had a nickel...Still no suicide threats or threats to burn down the house. If I can get through the weekend without that, I'll take it.

[Doughboy]

Anyway, her talking with my wife did not go well. I don't think they've spoken at all in years. My mom kept making efforts for a while, but eventually just kind of gave up. My wife can be pretty ugly to her face, is especially ugly in email, and it was always 50/50 at best whether my wife was going to go through with any plan she did make.

I think Notwendy is right that part of what my wife wants is for everyone to acknowledge that she is #1 in my life. She gets very upset when she feels like that isn't being recognized or acknowledged.

This is interesting to me.  My experience from here, my T, and other reading is that the behaviors are typically directed at one person. 

Is she like this with everyone or just "family"?

[stolencrumbs]

This is interesting to me.  My experience from here, my T, and other reading is that the behaviors are typically directed at one person. 

Is she like this with everyone or just "family"?

Well, the worst is definitely reserved for me. With others, it seems that the thing that triggers her responding in less than ideal ways is any sense on her part that she (or we) are being treated unfairly. When that happens, she feels like she has to make a point and that the "injustice" must be brought to the person's attention and made right somehow. These are often really small things, but they are things that make her feel like she is not being considered. A friend made a reservation for dinner somewhere without consulting her about the restaurant. Her boss asked her to do something she didn't ask the other person in her position to do. My mom invited other people to dinner without asking us if that was okay. etc.

[Notwendy]

Yep that's about right, and what would be an ordinary oversight for people become the crime of the century. Unforgivable.

Then, after a while, all is well and it's expected that we forget about the reaction which seems completely justified in the moment to them when they are angry. We need to be able to keep a perspective on this.

With suicide threats though, please don't hesitate to call 911 if she makes one. If it's real- then she needs 911. If it's just a threat, 911 is the consequence for making these threats.

I hope you have a lovely time with your parents. I think it is good that you are not letting her moods keep you from seeing them.

[Cat Familiar]

With suicide threats though, please don't hesitate to call 911 if she makes one. If it's real- then she needs 911. If it's just a threat, 911 is the consequence for making these threats.

Agreed!

[Cat Familiar]

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