Update: things are much worse

[Longterm]

Mod Note:  Part 1 of this thread is here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=322725.0

Putting it bluntly, things are much worse.

After my last post I feel that a lot changed in me. My personal growth has changed me forever and I will never be the same.

I continued to stay away from my wife and have still not spoken to her or seen her since November 2017. I became happier/stronger and focused on the kids. I am ashamed to say that the past few months and the past week in particular have slowly broken me down.

She continued to have very little to do with the children that do not live with her and her relationships with her family have further deteriorated. Her brother and sister refuse to talk to her and her mom has said several times "if she wasn't my daughter she would be out the door head first".

Her drug use/drinking continues and she continues to live her life in what I see as a very dysfunctional and selfish way.

In the summer I met a nice young lady and began dating. She was very nice and beautiful too, way out of my league but it just wasn't the same and I decided to end it after 5 months. I am not going to lie, I am not over my wife. This new woman was willing to help with my issues and I just didn't want to drag her into this mess. She still messages me regularly and it is clear she loves me and wishes to be with me but I dunno, I feel like I am damaged and I have begun to devalue myself I feel. When my wife (Yes, still married. I'll get to that) found out about the new partner she stopped me seeing our boys. She demanded a phone number off me and insisted I stop being a child and grow up because it's important we get along for the kids. I disagree. I never gave her my number but she did eventually allow the kids to come see me. I had finished with my new girl by then but they never met her anyway, I wouldn't allow someone to be introduced into their lives as I have seen first hand the damage that can be done.

It's been a year of constantly hearing about the things she continues to do. My son rebelled against her and her boyfriend and her bf said my son had to leave. He lives with his nan too now. My son is the nicest lad you could ever meet and I feel that the way she has behaved the past 18mths has had a huge impact on him. He became extremely angry and depressed, non of it directed at me or anybody but his mom and her bf. I recently got him back into counselling (She stopped taking him because she said she couldn't afford it. The £270 p/m I pay in her bank account disagrees) and me and his nan have managed to have a much more hands on approach with him now he is no longer around his mother. He has become happier the past few months and me and his nan will continue to help him.
Obviously she blamed the bf but we all see that she chose him over her own son. Her mom told her to move in with the youngest, get off the drugs, sort herself out, get her own place etc but she refused.
She said she was going to visit our son everyday and help her mom look after him. Her mom has not seen her for up to a month at times and when she does it's always for money or babysitting duties.

The bf has started to be blamed for various things as I said would happen because taking responsibility is not her forte. He is no good, I'll give her that but why start a relationship with him in the first place.

Her and my daughter have continued to have a very strained relationship as does my eldest son. My daughter went completely downhill to begin with and was indulging in drugs/self harming etc. I have worked with her a massive amount as she continues to live with me. She is now drug free, has a job, has a lot of support from me and her nan and even has a bf now. We have had many many long chats about her mother's behaviour as I have seen a lot of it in my daughter and she admits she sees it too and has come an extremely long way and I couldn't be more proud. For the record I have never told anybody that I believe my ex is borderline, even my daughter.

After suffering my ex financially destroying me I have payed off most of my debt, I only owe around £4000 now which can be sorted out at a later date. I have been working all the hours I can and have accumulated literally thousands of pounds. Around early may I will be moving into a much bigger property and the children are all coming with me apart from the youngest who will stay every weekend until his mother turns on him then I will be having him permanently. I will be in a much better position for when this happens. Out of the 4 he is the only one she wants but I still believe he will become the target of her anger.

To have 3 of my children at their nan's for Christmas dinner broke me. The best way I can describe it is "tragic". Their mother never even saw them Christmas day. Their nan had to get them some presents out of their own benefit money whilst my youngest received hundreds of pounds in gifts. Words fail me. Our daughter turned 18 in January and my wife got in touch with her, told her she had no money but would order a gift the following week. The following week she said she already knew what she was going to get her but this gift never arrived, again, I don't know what to say.

Apparently my wife has rapidly deteriorated. Lost a huge amount of weight and has big heavy bags under her eyes, she does not look well and her family have said they believe her to be mentally ill.

Obviously I have to stay strong because I have been and the children are relying on me. We have a lot of plans this year with moving and I've already booked us a day trip. They have told me I have done well, that they look up to me, my son calls me his inspiration but this is where my problem I feel has started since he went to his nans.

As I have stated, my wife hates me. I destroyed her life and everything is my fault.

She has started to open up a bit now she's not so infatuated with her bf. She told my daughter that our relationship was fantastic, I was everything to her, her world?
She has said she knows she has hurt me but keeps blaming me. She said she knows that she has not been the best mother and wants to work on improving it, she is now on anti depressants and is waiting for counselling. She acknowledges that she doesn't know how to show her feelings and she understands that all she does is hurt those around her. She said she misses her family and wants us all back.

I don't know what to say, the compassion and empathy inside of me came spilling out and I was instantly back to square 1 when I wanted her and I 100% believed I could help her.

Last week she asked her mom if she could move in and her mom agreed. She sat the kids down and told them she had been a terrible mother and things were going to change. She was going to stand on her own 2 feet and sort herself out. Like I said I've still not spoken to her but transferred £500 to her mom to give to her to help while she gets sorted.
4hrs later she moved back in with her bf.

I have not shed a tear for over a year for that woman but she got me big time. I sat and cried for around 5 hours and I wanted to end my life, I'm not going go lie. I have eaten today but that's the first time since Sunday, the night sweats have returned and I have lost 5lbs in a matter of days, my mood is on the floor.

She has been in touch with the kids but they find it weird, putting loads of x's, calling them sweetie and telling them she loves them, they find it weird. Apparently the bf has agreed to let her see the kids now? I dunno what that's all about but she said she is going to put more effort in. She went to her mom's on Wednesday and had tea with them (not my daughter, she's guarded) but everybody is convinced it won't last, we shall see.

I think with the things that have gone on recently my mood has been affected and I think hope of reconciliation has been unearthed so I (stupidly) asked her mom to tell her to email me. I told her she has not attempted to come back to the marriage and she has ignored divorce so I told her this is all coming to a head and I will save some cash and in August I will be petitioning for divorce on the grounds of adultery.
Her reply baffled me. She said she does not want to be with me, we have both? Done too much to each other and she feels divorce is the best option. She said she has not committed adultery and she left because I physically and mentally abused her and our children so I can go ahead with the divorce but I must state those reasons.
Again my emotions came to the fore and I broke down like a little girl. Does she honestly believe this to be the truth? I thought our relationship was fantastic?

I replied having a go and then I realised I had just given her what she wanted, she of course did not reply this time.

What an idiot.

Thoughts?

[Mutt]

Hi Longterm,


That sounds complicated. I'm so sorry that things are difficult for you right now.

She said she does not want to be with me, we have both? Done too much to each other and she feels divorce is the best option. She said she has not committed adultery and she left because I physically and mentally abused her and our children so I can go ahead with the divorce but I must state those reasons.

How are you feeling today? Have you eaten? It's hard if not impossible to try to convince a pwBPD if they think the sky red then let her think that the sky is red you know your truth.

The reason why she's changing the facts is because she feels shame it's not something that I would discuss for now because it's going to be hard for both of you. It's possible that a reason why she moved out so quickly from her mothers is because her mother might of brought this fact up and it's not something that she can face.

Do you have a T? (therapist)

[Longterm]

Hi Mutt.

Yes, I know I can't convince her, it is folly but the shock is what got me because of things she has said to other people. What struck me in the few short emails we exchanged was that I felt that there was still the presence of an emotional barrier, the venom in her words were difficult to read and hurtful if I'm honest. Everybody knows what happened. It is projection and I know this because every single thing I have been accused of is what she does.

I believe that she does in fact feel a lot of shame and her anger towards me is her way of dealing with it due to her dysfunction.

Apparently when she went to sort things out with her bf he agreed to give her a credit card as apparently he is controlling and never gives her money? All is well now Lol. I believe she is scapegoating and manipulating him, such is the disorder. Unfortunately my son had to be uprooted for that to happen.

I have been eating again and feeling somewhat better. I do not have a T at present. I did go to counselling last year and came to the conclusion that this woman is very unhealthy for me. I thought I would just stay away from her eventually things would improve. Things did improve but I still think about her every single day (18mts on) and after a very deep and long conversation with my cousin today I feel that it is best that I return to counselling because I think I am powerless to defend myself against her and that does not feel like a very good place to be.

[Mutt]

Things did improve but I still think about her every single day (18mts on) and after a very deep and long conversation with my cousin today I feel that it is best that I return to counselling because I think I am powerless to defend myself against her and that does not feel like a very good place to be.

She's caused you a lot of pain from what you shared here in this discussion. You probably have a lot more stories that you can share. It sounds like you know what to do - the r/s is not healthy for you but that doesn't mean that it has to play out like this. It has to be devastating after 20 years when you're knee deep in pain and she's seeing someone. I can relate with your posts. It hurts like hell.

I'm glad to hear that you're thinking about going back to counselling really the best thing is seeing a counselor and having support group at the same time. Use as many resources as you can during a difficult time like this. I think that were you are is normal these r/s's are so complicated and leave you in a lot of pain in the end that takes time to work through - plus you have a long history together.

What happened? Can you give us a back story on your break up? Prior to the 6 months separation.

[Longterm]

Hi Mutt.

Yes, a very long relationship that I should of got out of a very very long time ago. My thread did get split because it reached its limit but I will try and condense it here.

She would describe childhood as good but a lack of love from paternal mother, very much a daddies girl.
She is very selfish, self entitled, it is all about her. She lacks empathy and struggles to show her feelings. Very quick to anger, regular shouting/complaining. Inability to sort out her own problems, stupid decision making. She also loathes herself, thinks she is useless/bad. Only cares about our youngest child.

I had a tragic upbringing. 18 funerals attended by age 30. Father died age 3, mother at 21. Everybody in my family has been victims of abuse, myself included by paternal grandmother.
I am very empathetic. Self sacrificing behaviour, I sorted all problems and I enjoyed that role. Doormat mentality.

Classic giver+taker scenario.

Cheating from the start, always something I was not doing right. The whole relationship was me trying to make her happy so she did not cheat/leave me. Usually severe bouts of depression mixed with drug abuse led to cheating/not wanting to be with me, that led to me "fixing" her as in getting her meds/off drugs then returning to "normality". Sometimes 6months to 2yrs then rinse and repeat.

The last 2yrs was easily the worst. Several emotional affairs, Skype chats when at work, buying sex toys and I felt she was disconnecting from me. Me telling her she needed help and her telling me I was the problem. Very very weird behaviour and decision making. At 1 point telling me she was moving house and taking the kids and I was not welcome, I moved out and she threatened suicide for the first time several hours later, said she thought I would fight for her.

The last 4 months I was drinking heavily. I only drank when around her and I would make excuses to leave the house. I had trouble sleeping and could only sleep when she was asleep or out the house, I would knock myself out with drink. I woke up everyday soaking wet with sweat. Looking back I was having a breakdown.

Finally she said she didn't want to be with me so I left. I entered a 12 step program 1 week before I left. The day I left she was asking my work friend for sex, 1 week later a new random guy is living in my house.

I have not drank since and although I was upset by her actions I could not help but feel a massive sense of relief. My anxiety instantly lowered, the night sweats immediately stopped. I live in a much more productive way although I am starting to think I am not living at all, I am merely surviving. My focus has been on the children and trying to build us all a better life away from her, the kids are very receptive to me and we are all trying to move forward together.

My ex has completely destroyed her life. Daily drugs and frequent alcohol use. 3/4 kids have been abandoned by her. Family relationships severed. Everything is my fault, I am the devil, in her eyes I have physically and mentally abused her and our children.

The past 18mths have been heart breaking to say the least for everybody involved including her, although she will never admit to it. Her family believe her to be mentally ill and are struggling to understand her abandoning the kids

It is a mess and I have been bitterly reminded that I am very much still bonded to this woman even though significant time has passed. She scares the crap out of me and I have not seen or spoken to her since November 2017.

She hurts those around her and she has admitted this, I don't buy it though, I believe she does not want the label of bad mother and she is telling the kids exactly what they want to hear to achieve this. If she is telling the truth then she has been on anti-depressant for months and only recently been a change of tactics in regards to the kids. I know she is still on drugs and I don't see anything changing until she is clean, her bf too does drugs so everybody believes she needs him gone. I believe he is not the problem though, I see him as a symptom of the problem, the bigger picture if you will.

I feel as though I cannot get away from this situation because obviously I am worried about the kids as I have seen the damage she has done to them and I feel their pain, it is debilitating me and I feel as though nothing much will change until she reaches a level of "normality".

[JNChell]

Hey there, Longterm. I have to say that with everything you’ve described, you’re doing a good job and being a great dad. One thing that is concerning, and I can relate, is the mention of wanting to end your life. Are you still having these feelings? Keep in mind that your kids need you. I understand the feelings of hopelessness and not knowing what to do. It sounds like you’re mapping things out, though. You’ve stated that the kids emotions are showing improvement while not being with their mother. This is a clear indication that they need you and their nan. Do you agree?

[Longterm]

Hi JNChell.

I really haven't described very much in all honesty. There is so much more I could say such as times I have been in hospital because of this woman.

It's been a really tough period of time where I have had to accept that my marriage was not what I thought it was. Me and the children have been abused for a very long time and I have to live with the fact that I have failed to protect them from her. Their suffering has been immense the past 18mths, the things she has said and done to them is disgusting and I can only try and be there for them moving forward.

Some may disagree with this but I have urged them to spend as little time as possible around her. I can see her luring them back in and I only see things ending yet again at their expense. They need to guard their emotions because she has shown she has no issues trampling all over them, of course not her fault. I see her as a very dangerous individual.

I have been doing a good job yes and I think it's important to give myself a bit of credit and get back on track with my plans. It was the little things, here are some lines I heard:

I miss all my family and I want you all back.
I know I've f**ed everything up
I want to be a better mom
I'm on pills and waiting for counselling
He wasn't just my husband, he was my best friend.
I hope to build a much more healthier relationship with your dad
I know I have hurt him

Can you see why I would think she was ready to make changes? Not to mention leaving her bf. Then I got "you mentally and physically abused me and the kids". I ripped open my shirt, showed her my heart and she lunged the dagger straight into the depths of my very soul. What an idiot.

A stark reminder of who/what I'm dealing with. Strict NC again and more counselling for me.

I am no longer having these thoughts of suicide no. Because of the significant loss I have suffered in my life I have a tremendous tool in my box. I have the ability to pick myself up and get on with things, that's how I got into a much better place last year and that's what I will do again, I will fix myself.

The kids emotions are better when they are not around their mother and if I had my way she would never see them again but they will continue to see her because they love her. They have each stated that they would like her to be somebody else, to get better and be a better mom but I know that is not going to happen. They have no idea what they are dealing with, that's just heart breaking right?

I think that at some point I'm going to have to sit them down and just explain what is wrong with her, how do I even do that? Do I just say "your mom is BPD/ covert narcassist and you need to run"? How does one deal with that?

Their nan (her mother) has been fantastic and the kids definitely need us both.

There is a family get together in a few months and I have been invited, can't wait for all the awkward questions

[Mutt]

I think that at some point I'm going to have to sit them down and just explain what is wrong with her, how do I even do that? Do I just say "your mom is BPD/ covert narcassist and you need to run"? How does one deal with that?

The short answer is that you don't unless you're a professional that can diagnose a mental illness. What you can look at are traits. I remain neutral when it comes to the kids it is their r/s with their mother. They are young although the 13 year has been picking up the odd behaviours of her mom. She has a r/s with my uBPDexw that is different than the r/s that I had. If you take sides you're creating drama triangles and it's going to leave you distressed. This is a goal that you can work towards eventually because I know that this is difficult for you right now, all of this as I mentioned takes time but having information gives you the edge.

I'd suggest to be a good example by having healthy r/s skills if there are areas that are softer for you than others than you can work on that. The kids should see the difference between how one parent behaves and how the other one behaves. You cant' control what your wife does you only have control over yourself. I remain neutral with my D13 and I work with the behaviours I never mention BPD, PD or traits.

For example a pwBPD will try to over control their environment because they feel out of control inside. Also they will project their feelings on others. My D13 was frustrated with mom because mom's friends son got expelled from school for a fist fight. He was being bullied and eventually he lost it and got into a fight. My was being bullied in school I think that she may still be but keeping it to herself because she doesn't want her parents to worry. My ex kept asking her if she is getting bullied and my D13 repeatedly said no but felt bad because mom doesn't trust her. I told my D13 that I would feel hurt and frustrated too because this has nothing to do with you this belongs to the other kid.

I'd suggest to validate your kids feelings you don't need to explain a complex mental illness to them at the end of the day the r/s is between them and their mom and them and you but not all three of you. You might want to check this lesson on validation for some ideas.

Communication Skills - Don't Be Invalidating

[Longterm]

Thanks Mutt, I will be having a look at that later on.

Some things you mentioned I have already said. I have told them their relationship with their mother is nothing to do with me but if they feel like they want to talk to me about issues they have with her that's fine.

[JNChell]

Hi, Longterm. Thanks for opening up more. I spent time in the hospital while I was enmeshed with S4’s mom as well. Looking back on it, it’s hard to believe that I hit that point in my life, but, I can’t deny that it was somehow necessary to change the direction of where things were headed. It was a crossroads. An important thing to be aware of is that you’re here and you’re processing what you’ve been through. You’re not trying to bury it within yourself, you’re dealing with it. That’s very important and we’re here to walk beside you through it. Rely on us. That’s why this community exists.

Mutt has given you solid feedback. Listen to him. He has a lot of experience and knowledge when it comes to this stuff. He’s been through the out door. Take his advice.

It's been a really tough period of time where I have had to accept that my marriage was not what I thought it was.

I’m very sorry that you’ve had to come to this realization. We understand.  in reading this comment that you typed, how does it feel? I showed up to this community in very, very bad shape. Being here has been a game changer. I’m much, much better now and learning a lot of very interesting information. Mostly from interacting with folks like you. You get it. I get it. We all get it.

I can most certainly see why you would think that she was changing. Do you see why she really wasn’t? Changes in personality don’t happen that quickly, if ever. Those things take work and a conscious effort. Is she capable of that? You know her best.

What disgusting things are you speaking of?

[Longterm]

Hi JNChell.

I think I have come to accept that I can no longer deny what is right in front of me, that's what I see when I read what I wrote.

As Tina once said, what's "love" got to do with it?

Yes, I definitely get it. This is not the first time this has happened, it has happened twice before I'm ashamed to say.

No, I don't think change is a part of who she is. She has never taken responsibility for anything, it is simply not a part of her. I remember a few years ago she was cheating with another married woman at college. She convinced me it was my fault to the point where I told her to make friends with the woman, crazy stuff. I obviously didn't show her enough attention and I needed to get my crap together and be the husband she deserved whilst doing my own laundry etc, I could laugh but it's not funny is it. I see straight through this counselling crap, it's been something that started just after Christmas. She has not contacted my daughter in over a year maybe but suddenly wants to be the best mother in the world whilst passing messages on to me. There is no change she is simply trying to make her way back. I am even more convinced because it is clear to me that she has succeeded in breaking me down and Mind f*ked me culminating in her emailing me about an hour ago saying "can we meet up and talk about things". Instant tight chest/palpitations. I mean for God's sake where does it end?

The disgusting things I mentioned were her manipulation of the children. She has made them believe they are responsible for her happiness, mind boggling stuff. I work nights, have done for years and they have told me she treated them worse when I was not around. I could honestly write a library but many many things such as her systematic abandonment of them and the vile ways she has spoken to them. A bad one was when my daughter was 17, let's say she was sexually assaulted. We were all there for her but her mother, she accused her of lying and even made fun of her misfortune. She told a police officer my daughter was a tramp that had it coming? I just don't know how to process that, neither does anybody else. It was all over eventually and we got justice but the fact her mother still calls her a liar is, I just don't know.

[JNChell]

Longterm, that is intense stuff to have to go through, but you are. I’m glad that you read what you wrote and that in doing so, things are a little more clear for you.

There is no shame in trying to keep your family in tact. Man, my situation is different, but I tried to salvage my little family. That was a bad idea. My attempts took me to a dark place.

If she was cheating with a woman and while married to you, I would say that she is experiencing a severe identity crisis. I’m no expert, but she doesn’t know who she is. Placing blame on you for her uncertainty solidifies her lack of who she is. The important thing is to not take it personally. You didn’t cause this and you’re not the first person to feel what she is.

You’ve seen her manipulate innocent children. Is taking her back still an option?

[Longterm]

You and me both, I did not want the family to break. Even after everything she did I offered a 2 month separation and marriage counselling but she was already gone and demonizing me.

Oh yeah, a classic for BPD. I remember having a row about it, she was asking my daughter dating tips and my daughter is like "mom, your married to dad, this is all wrong"
It went a little like this.

What are you doing with this woman?
You know I'm into girls.
Do I?
Yes, you knew before we got married.
Did I?
Yes, I told you.
No you didn't.
Well you know now.
So you think that's acceptable?
Yes because it's not proper cheating.
Really?
Yes, you know I wouldn't cheat on you don't you?
You do realise you are married to ME right?

I almost booked a holiday for the 2 of them after this and encouraged them to rebuild their friendship. Her sister stopped me. Madness.

I have always said she lacks identity, she simply does not know who she is.

I cannot 100% say I would never take her back. I'm not going to lie to me or you, this is why I have and will continue to stay away from her, it is easier for me.

[JNChell]

Brother, your best option is to stay away from her for now. It sounds like you’re vulnerable to someone that has been causing you and your kids a great amount of harm. What I’m saying is that you sound uncertain. We’re here to help you find steady footing and to negotiate your decisions in moving forward. Right now, I suggest keeping your distance from her. What are your thoughts on that?

[Longterm]

My thoughts are, you are spot on.

I honestly thought I was out the woods until she started to interact again and I realised I am quite powerless right now, she still has the ability to control my emotions after 18mths, it is absolutely crazy when you consider I have not seen or spoke to her since November 2017. How is that even possible right?

I cannot believe how I broke down last weekend, it scared the crap out of me and that's why I have contacted counselling again, I need to cut this bond it's as simple as that.

[JNChell]

You’re making a wise decision. If you begin to feel like you need to respond/reach out to her, will you commit to coming here first to talk about it?

[Longterm]

That's a very good idea, so yes I will. Her interactions nearly always go the same way.

Starts off nice and asks me something unreasonable.
I politely say no or suggest an alternative.
She becomes angry and tries to make me believe something I know not to be true.
I correct her BS.
She stops.

This time it's all nice and obviously a step further with wanting to meet up. She has mailed again saying we need to talk about me, her and the kids.

[JNChell]

Don’t respond right now. Rest. Give yourself some space. I’m calling it a night as well. Leave your phone in another room and pick up a good book or put in a good movie. You’re not obligated to her. Grant yourself some space. It will get easier.