Ex with avoidant attachment style

[Mutt]

I’ve been going out with a woman that at first I thought could possibly have BPD traits but didn’t really have any of the systems. BPD came into my mind because of the push / pull behaviour.

She broke up with me again this weekend for something very minuscule. She broke up with me last year at the same time with the same pattern. So I’ve seen over arching pattern for the last two years, she pulls really close and over a several months slowly she pushes away until she wants break it off and wants to stay friends.

A very close friend of mine made the comment that she has commitment issues I started looking online and I have heard of attachment theories but my ex fits dismissive avoidant attachment to a T. If I ask her about where the r/s us going she always says that she focuses on the present and doesn’t focus on the future, let’s see where it goes. She is extremely independent and says that doesn’t want to depend on anyway she talks about emotions but she’s shallow, she’s not a shallow person but she never shares how she feels and always seem to be able to shrug feelings off.

I didn’t know what was going on last year but now I do. She’s aware but is not very self reflective or self aware she’s not aware of this behavior. I’m the opposite I have an anxious attachment style so when I need reassurance about the r/s or Im needy this pushes her away until eventually she feels trapped or engulfed in the r/s and breaks the r/s off.

The last time I was getting frustrated because she wouldn’t answer when I asked her about where things were going and she blamed me saying that I can’t handle not knowing and that she wanted break it off which she did. Eventually we got back together once that I started a new f/s with someone else or was about to get into s new r/s. She had a problem with the person that I was seeing saying that she wasn’t good enough for me - I think that it was her ego.

Over the month she was trying to pick fights and would break up over the silliest things and my intuition told me that she’s looking for a reason to break up and she did this weekend and just said that it wasn’t working for her. She wants to be friends with benefits then that changed to not knowing and we’ll see where it goes. She wanted to remain friends.

I don’t know what I want but if I get friend zone and she did friend zone me the last time it was s lot of work to get out of that. Today I told her that I want 30 days no contact so that I can sort my feelings. If we’re friends she gets everything that she wants if there’s NC at least she’ll start to forget about what she found unpleasant and will start to miss me. For me I want to get out of the FOG and see with more clarity.

I do know one thing, I’m in the exact same sport as last year. It has been two years, I know that she won’t change I tweaked a few things ( didn’t pressure her for where things were going ) and I know that she won’t change but I can’t do this s third time. She says that she still loves me just a few weeks ago she said she would want a baby with in the future but she cannot commit because she feels engulfed and feels like she’ll lose her independence. It will be the exact same pattern pull and the push over a few months.

I also decided that I’ll spend my time on myself go to the gym, etc

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[zachira]

I am sad to hear you are struggling with an ex with an avoidant attachment style. I was attracted to a man with an avoidant attachment style and my therapist told me that he needs years of therapy to be able to have a healthy relationship. I would say that is true, as I had an avoidant attachment style before I went to many years of therapy and am sorry how I treated some really wonderful men. What do you think you need to do to heal from this relationship?

[Red5]

Hello Mutt…

I am pretty sure I have some sort of 'attachment (style) disorder'… and so does my wife,

Its taken me years ?… to finally realize this.

I think… one or the other in a relationship will eventually seek 'control' in the relationship, in order to quell his or her attachment (fears) disorders… or the 'pc' version, attachment style worries.

No one wants to feel unsafe, or unsure, unsecure… so sooner or later some form of control measure is initiated to try to gain security (control)… most often this will push the other away… this has been my experiences.

I read the other day on another site (resource)… this is about what I read (condensed)… "there are three types of relationship dynamics characterized by power imbalances and power struggles."

They are three:
(1.) Demand-withdrawal;… (2.) Distancer-pursuer; and (3.) Fear-shame.

I've followed the "demand withdrawal"… and have fallen into the "distance pursuer" versions for sure.

Something like this… "what's wrong, you feel distant"… then the other party must think… "what is he saying, I'm right here"… "he has no idea who I even am, does he even really love me"… then you get pushed away in anger, and the more 'she' pushes (distances), the more you pursue (fear)… its like two reversed polarity magnets… its not going to work… your question, "what's wrong, you feel distant"… is a passive intent to gain a measure of security, ie' control in the relationship, she takes it as insecurity... which is a   to her...

The more we pursue (chase)… the further they pull away (distance)… and then we grow despondent… and we "quit"… thus confirming her original thought… "he has no idea who I even am, he doesn't love me anymore"… so she then may actually reverse at this point, and start to seek to bring you back "in line", she may actually star to pursue… but now you are despondent, and have gone cold… and you are now the distant one...

Its a destructive force in a relationship… the both of you will trade these rolls back and forth if not brought under "control"… somehow… you will trade back and forth… there is fear, which starts you to demand (control), and then pursue… she will distance, perhaps due to shame and or even anger... and then you will experience in turn shame or despondency... and then you will distance... and then she may pursue... petty crazy stuff... it will happen over and over... break up, after breakup (pattern) and then get back together, then... "I need space"... "I don't know anymore"... shame, fear resultant.

I think most of this is due to our attachment styles, cast during our upbringing, or early relationships, previous marriages...

Me, I know I have this never ending fear that she may leave, as my first wife did... because perhaps she has ceased to endear me, which is evident by her BPD having shown itself over and over, she's called me names, so forth and so on... so I'm always on guard there, so when she devalues me .. verbally or emotionally... I quit, self protect mode, self sooth... and I close (slam) the hatch closed... so I can't be hurt again... and now safe and sound inside the hull of my Sherman tank... she now sees this as abandonment... yet again, (push/pull) like all the other of her previous men partners have done to her... I'm no different in her mind, even though she was the one who pushed me away (BPD?).

I know Mutt, I talk too much... hang in there, good discussion.

Red5

[Mutt]

What do you think you need to do to heal from this relationship?

Time and distance but I don't need to cut her out of my life. She wants to be in it I would like for her to be in it although I would like to be closer to her. She's doing her best. I have to accept that I think that would help with healing one way that I think that it could work is and I wouldn't ask for her to go to therapy and change but maybe tell me when she needs space. That being said I'm doubtful that even that would be enough.

I would have to let go of that hope that there is chance that this could work romantically but I would still need some for awhile what I have I enjoyed is that we have been able to be mature about this from both sides.

No one wants to feel unsafe, or unsure, unsecure … so sooner or later some form of control measure is initiated to try to gain security (control) … most often this will push the other away … this has been my experiences.

I can see there being a huge potential for drama with me and her if I was still the same person that I was before I got here. Is it control or is it defense mechanisms that are ingrained and unnoticeable because it's a blue print for your personality. The advantage that knowing what I know now an know that she has an avoidant attachment style has helped me with being more understanding, taking it less personally and not reacting automatically by being defensive and I could work on my own attachment style and change the blue print.

[itsmeSnap]

Hey Mutt, I'm in a similar situation in an ongoing relationship.

I don't know why but it makes me sort of happy that other people can relate to the struggle , maybe because it makes me think about "if others have gone through this before me, then someone must have figured out how to work things out" 

I don’t know what I want but if I get friend zone and she did friend zone me the last time it was s lot of work to get out of that.

From the first time this was offered to me, I categorically rejected the possibility. It will keep being offered, because it eases their anxiety while you're left hanging.

Imagine you being the one to offer such terms, would you tell her "let me love you as much as I can while I let go, I won't take long I promise, but you'll have to put your life on hold for a few weeks/months, then you can have all the independence you need!" ?

Now that I think of it I did ask my avoidant date something similar, I told her that we could "agree to keep dating, not just friends but not a couple, nothing serious for a while" and she did consider giving that a try: It eases my rejection anxiety and I kept her on the hook, same as she did to you. I guess it does work both ways 

Is it the right approach? I don't know, but maybe its about finding a way you BOTH can ease each other's anxiety while allowing yourselves to more securely attach to each other. what do you think?

I had an avoidant attachment style before I went to many years of therapy and am sorry how I treated some really wonderful men

What I would give to know how an avoidant person experiences relationships firsthand, but alas, this is not the place to ask 

[zachira]

Itsmesnap,
I can explain how I felt in my relationships when I had an avoidant attachment style. When I truly had an avoidant attachment style, I was indifferent to my boyfriends most of the time, though when the relationships ended I was devastated even though I never had any real affection for any boyfriend. One boyfriend rightfully complained that I did not miss him when we were apart. I seem to be able to maintain my indifference until the relationships ended and then I fell apart. It seemed the falling apart was about my pain and terror of being abandoned as a child, and the indifference was how I learned to cope from birth being left in the crib most of the day. Both my grandmothers and mother did not have the capacity to bond with babies and children, and wore frozen faces when interacting with me as a small child.
Many years ago, I started working on my frozen stiff body because I was having lots of physical pain. I did massage, yoga, acupuncture, physical therapy, etc., Then I did EMDR therapy which taught me how to be present in the moment. Both the physical and mental therapies brought up my buried feelings and allowed me to process my buried memories and pain. I am a different person now, very much capable of loving and caring for others.

[Mutt]

Imagine you being the one to offer such terms, would you tell her "let me love you as much as I can while I let go, I won't take long I promise, but you'll have to put your life on hold for a few weeks/months, then you can have all the independence you need!" ?

That’s a good point.

I don’t know how she feels because it’s hard to detect tone on a message. Her responses have mostly been her just saying “Ok”.

Anyways I told her that I want 60 days instead of 30 and I won’t be initiating contact if she needs more space after the 60 days I won’t take it personally - she can come and go as she pleases. If initiate I know that she’ll start saying eventually that she’s too tired, she’s busy with her son etc avoidance and will start pushing.

I won’t chase her. I think that she probably didn’t want it to go this way she didn’t want no contact but she is being respectful of my wishes. She could be angry or are could be upset or she could be both.

She has said that she has never met anyone like me and that none if her boyfriends loved her as much as I did. Probably because I was the clingiest one.

I don’t think that she’s going to contact me after 60 days I have s feeling that it’s going to be longer than that. If I hear from her it might be in the winter if she doesn’t have someone else that’s when she wants me around but not necessarily there with her. Like I said it’s cyclical.

I feel bad but I don’t feel bad. She wanted to break up but still wanted me around. This was her choice but I just can’t stick around to assuage her anxiety I hate my needs too and it’s going to take longer to heal if we’re talking to each other day to day. I want her out of my daily routine. Ill work in moving on during this time and I have some of things that I want to work on to better myself

[Mutt]

I just wanted to add that yesterday was a weird day. I say because I never thought that things would end like this. I have an anxiety disorder and one thing that I do is I tend to overthink and think worst case scenario. I’ve been working 12 hour days and not getting as much sleep as I should and the anxiety was building up.

That being said I told her that I changed my mind about no contact she said stop overthinking if you want talk to me any time you can. I’m not proud of this part because I made some bad choices by reverting the no contact then I asked her if we could do it one last time. I wasn’t thinking about how I just rejected her and now I’m asking for sex. She didn’t respond then I was thinking about just three weeks ago I had bought her three handbags and I got angry I told her that I wanted the money back she said when do I want it.

She’s been nonchalant about dumping me when things weren’t bad at all, she was trying to pick fights, look for faults and I called her pretty bad exploitive name and then the narcissistic anger came out. I’ve never seen her angry like the way that she was, she reminded me of my dad that’s a narcissist she just wants to roll over you. She said you’re a loser I can see why your exuBPDw left you ( she doesn’t know about my ex and BPD ) and then she said never call me again or I’ll call the cops.

I called my mom after and told her everything and she said everything that you’ve told about her when we talk she’s a narcissist and she’s angry because she was losing control with how you were implementing no contact. She knows how to push your buttons and the comment that she made about your ex was a low blow.

After last night I never though I’d hear from her again then at 815 she left me a message on WhatsApp saying that she forgives me because I’ve always been there for her in the past. I said that there’s no excuse for what I said and that she doesn’t deserve that and I won’t do it again.

[itsmeSnap]

she said stop overthinking if you want talk to me any time you can.

That would be a huge relief to hear for me  . how did you feel when hearing this?

then I asked her if we could do it one last time. I wasn’t thinking about how I just rejected her and now I’m asking for sex. She didn’t respond then I was thinking about just three weeks ago I had bought her three handbags and I got angry I told her that I wanted the money back

I know you mentioned anxiety and overthinking/doom scenarios, but think about why you lashed out. There is a rejection there, both hers and yours, its still a visceral response.

Can you think (overthink?) of a way you could have asked for connection (up to and including sex even) in a "format" (idk what to call it, date? romance? beer pong and chill?) that would be comfortable for both of you?

I said that there’s no excuse for what I said and that she doesn’t deserve that and I won’t do it again.

A promise is a good start. you sort of "lost it" over no sex and handbags, is conscious self restraint going to be enough to work this through?

I can explain how I felt in my relationships when I had an avoidant attachment style

Thanks for sharing zachira, much respect.

[Mutt]

That would be a huge relief to hear for me  . how did you feel when hearing this?

It helped my anxiety a lot

Can you think (overthink? ) of a way you could have asked for connection (up to and including sex even) in a "format" (idk what to call it, date? romance? beer pong and chill?) that would be comfortable for both of you?

You have a good point.

A promise is a good start. you sort of "lost it" over no sex and handbags, is conscious self restraint going to be enough to work this through?

Both times she blamed me for breaking up. Out if the blue both times she broke up for no apparent reason. How should I feel? Sone people would be in a lot of pain because of the lack of empathy. What would it do to your self esteem and your sense of self? How would you feel with all of the mixed signals and the confusion? Im fine because  I had a break up prior to meeting her with my ex wife that is tops when it comes to
BPD traits of i hadn’t gone through that I’d be busted up because of this.

She’s never apologized to me for her behaviours. The hand bags are a few action of the things that I bought for her because she wanted them shes asked for expensive gifts which surprised me at the same time I wanted to make her happy. A lot of this could be preventable with boundaries.

It’s pent up frustration of hanging in there hoping things will change, always doing things on her terms with no empathy towards me. I started seeing a woman the last time that we broke up and were fwb and she didn’t want to lose me because she still had a use for me. She’s never acknowledged that I sacrificed that r/s with that person for her. I don’t get the feeling that she values me as a person.

That being said she had said a very black and white statement about what i said which I think she lost a little sleep over it and processed it and the following day thought of me as a whole and all of the good with this bad thing that I said. Do two words make up a person’s being?

Yes I overreacted I came from an emotional place where thinking us less rational and she was emotional as well. I’ll give her credit she’s 99% percent of thee time composed, an I going to hold her to it? No but it did give me a chance to see narcissistic anger and I know enough from my past that you don’t want to cause a narcissist injury with a narcissist let them think that way one.

I don’t want to make myself a huge target with a narcissist, you want to be a small target with a narcissist. I started reading a book on an expert on narcissists Should I Stay or Should I Ho: Surviving A Relationship With A Narcissist by Dr Ramani Durvasula. I watched a few videos on YT she’s very well spoken on the subject and realistic as well. Realistic in the sense that most narcissist won’t change you can teach some behaviours but can’t change the person as a whole.

[Mutt]

She texted me yesterday both of our sons take the same mental math class on Saturday’s. I dropped my son off and had a couple of hours went to the gym and was hoping to get in and out when I picked him up but the class was running late my ex was in the class. I sat down at one of the desks and just focused on the class and not her.

Three hours later I get a message on WhatsApp and she says it was nice to see you. I replied and said that it was nice to see you too. Two days earlier she warned me to never call her again or she’ll call the cops.

I got through quite a bit of Dr Ramani Durvasula she has quite a bit of the traits but she’s higher than normal lower than narcissist and definitely not NPD. She does alter reality often which is a sign of mental illness with all of that being said. There’s a part in the book where Dr Durvasula touches on codependency and basically were enabling unhealthy relationship habits which is probably the most significant thing.

[Turkish]

It's been a few days.  How are things going?

[Red5]

I got through quite a bit of Dr Ramani Durvasula… there’s a part in the book where Dr. Durvasula touches on codependency and basically were enabling unhealthy relationship habits which is probably the most significant thing.

Mutt,

Dr. Ramani Durvasula has a website and a YT channel (medcircle).

Pretty informative… are there any reviews or commentary (threads) about her work here on BPDfam?

Red5

[Mutt]

It's been a few days.  How are things going?

I talked to her yesterday. I asked her why she was angry at me after dumped me. She didn’t like the term because it sounded negative. She did say that she was hurt from what I said and I know that breaking up with someone holds its own pain. She had given me her good byes but didn’t really give me a reason she didn’t want to talk about it and called me controlling for asking.

She said that she doesn’t get time to herself. I had the opposite problem for several months because she pulls. She’s asks where am I, wants me to sacrifice going to the gym for her wanted me over every day that I didn’t have the kids. She wanted me out at 5 in the morning because she didn’t want her kid to see me.

I told her that three weeks ago we were together and now I don’t even feel like I’m a friend I feel like an acquaintance what I mean is she’ll send a text like the family picture of you and the kids looked really good have a nice day. It’s polite but at the same time it feels like I’m just here to tell you this and I don’t want to chat. She said that she’ll say hi in public she’s there for me if I need her but that’s the extent of it she says that she doesn’t want the emotional attachment to me.

This is a long story but it was the same thing same time time last year. She said I’m breaking up with you you deserve better ( same words used this year ) she pushed and said I should see other girls which I did I had met someone and then she was going back and forth she said she hated this new girl but she should let me go and let me do my own thing. Finally she had a huge problem with it and didn’t want to let me go she said how can you find someone already didn’t I mean anything. I could argue that she wanted to stay friends because she wanted her own time to ween herself off of the r/s you could say that’s selfish of her. I didn’t have the heart to let her go ( my problem ) and felt bad because the person that got hurt was the new girl that I met and we were hitting it off.

Anyways the bigger point of all this is that her mom is going to die from cancer. I told her that i don’t like how she just breaks up and doesn’t want to give me a chance and tell my she feels things are weird for her. It doesn’t have to be black and white I can keep myself busy doing other things and let her have her space. If I zoom back even further she doesn’t want this and it’s her right there’s nothing that I can do about it.

I don’t know if she’s going to pull again like she did last year there was a third person and the circumstances are different because she has a family member that has a terminal illness. It’s going to be really hard they are really close. I felt so bad for her going through all of this stuff I didn’t have the heart to break up with her but now I know that she doesn’t have empathy for me, I get it she’s going through something very difficult but this is the second time, I don’t feel bad for her she made her choice and I can’t do this again but I don’t think that I have to worry about because she loves me but does not want a r/s. I have to accept that and not have magical thinking that there is a tiny chance that I can have her back. She doesn’t want to repair the r/s between us she doesn’t care - I have to let go.

On a side note I had told the other woman last year that I didn’t want her to call because my ex didn’t want me to talk to her. I thought that she’ll probably not respond back to me so i probably shouldn’t do it but I thought what do I have to lose.

I sent her a friend request on FB and she accepted it. I didn’t want her to have to approach and ask me why I sent it. I sent her a message explaining last year and that I was really sorry for how I treated her and that it wasn’t fair to her for what I did. I sent this almost two days ago she hasn’t responded I have anxiety so I expect an immediate response my mom said that it’s a good sign that are accepted the friends request but to not follow up with another message she has to digest this and think of a response. My mom said if it were back when she was younger and I had done something like I had done she would of smacked me. I’m n it proud of it at all throwing her under the bus like that. I wish I had stuck up for myself and broken up with my ex.

[Mutt]

Mutt,

Dr. Ramani Durvasula has a website and a YT channel (medcircle).

Pretty informative … are there any reviews or commentary (threads) about her work here on BPDfam?

Red5

No we don’t gave a book review. I can’t promise but I will take your suggestion to staff.

[itsmeSnap]

I didn’t have the heart to let her go ( my problem ) and felt bad because the person that got hurt was the new girl that I met and we were hitting it off.

If you were hitting it off then why not continue that?

I sent her a message explaining last year and that I was really sorry for how I treated her and that it wasn’t fair to her for what I did. I sent this almost two days ago she hasn’t responded I have anxiety

Do you want a relationship with "new girl"?

[Mutt]

I do want to pursue the new girl because I’m at an age where if i don’t have the taste to do something I don’t have to. I don’t have time to waste anymore. It’s not a bad reflection on my ex. We both need time apart to get out of the negative bubble. She might say something different about me in a few weeks. We’re not getting back together it doesn’t matter  to as long as it’s one of us.

That being said I’m not making the same mistake and telling her about other women if she asks like she did the last time.