She Turns To Me For Rescue, Once Again

[Turkish]

Summary: she left me in 2013/14 for a studly college jock, 10 years her junior,  20 mine.  Engaged 10 months after she moved out,  married 6 months later.  Regrets on her part a few months after cohabitation, DV and cops many months later. Many months after that,  separation. She called me for help (to who else was she going to turn, her enabling friends?). Currently in limbo with him after I said "no" when she asked me to move in a year? 2 years ago now? This has gone on so long I can't remember. He doesn't know she asked to come back.

Now: this is the bookend to my living will and trust discussion on another board. She asked to meet and talk about her concerns about me making my BFF my Trustee (my second BFF is his backup), in charge of my estate if I kick the bucket before the kids turn 18. But that wasn't really what she wanted to talk to me about.

She's run up like $26k in credit card debt in the past 3+ years. She makes no more than $55k/yr. I pay her CS.  Her H, who I think did finish his 4 year degree, unlike either of us,  hasn't done anything with it for whatever reason. She basically supported them and they got kicked out of their subsidized 3 bedroom apartment after he moved in and even his low income disqualified them.  So then they both (and our two kids) crammed into a 1 bedroom at market rates, $500 more per month than they had been paying. She said that's when the debt started to pile up.  They split after that due to the DV (both guilty) and moved into another 1 bedroom, only marginally cheaper. Then an slot for subsidized housing came in (she put in that app in 2013) and that's where  she  currently is,  about $500/mo cheaper. That's where they've been for over a year.  

In that time,  she's taken the kids on vacations more than once per year,  including what had to be one that cost $3k across the country.  She recently asked me to go on vacation with them (to So-Cal, we are in Nor-Cal) and that she'd pay for my expenses. No. I wondered how she could afford all that over the last few years and now I know: she couldn't.

She offered to pay me over a few years with a little interest.  I gave my mom money over a 15 year period (not that much) but I realized that I was enabling my mother and her poor decisions.  At least I felt I was helping an old woman, and my mother, and there may have been property as an inheritance. But that's all gone.

My ex seemed to take it well that I declined.  She can pay this off in 4 years if she gets serious about it.  Why am I being used? More importantly, what would I get out of it?   That's what I asked myself when she asked to come back. Sure, I could have charge her $1k/mo rent to help me pay off the house sooner, but was it worth it? What was in it for me,  and how would it have damaged the kids,  a fake r/s, though they would have been overjoyed at first.  The kids already told me she loves me more than her H (from my POV, likes, not loves), and D7 told me not a month ago, "you're mommy's husband!"

She also told me that she filed for divorce from the former boy-toy, but that she's having trouble finding him to serve.  She told me that he's come over,  still calls and texts and that he came in and refused to leave. She said he has come over high on pot and that he's bulked up (maybe steroids, not a good combination). She threatened to call the cops so he left.

So the serving is in play. Somehow I don't see this ending well,  but everywhere she is at is due to her "unwise decisions" as my T said a few years ago. I of course didn't tell her that.  Maybe she knows it,  maybe if she knows, it doesn't matter.  Like my mother,  this is how toy go through life,  even if it hurts, that's just life because you've never lived it differently.  

She has a lot of potential and some good skills, it's too bad.  No one knows the level of her dysfunction,  otherwise seemingly "high functioning" except for me and maybe her H, who's dysfunctional, too.

At the center, our poor kids, who didn't ask for any of this.  

[GaGrl]

Oh, Turkish...this is so difficult. On one hand, she has an extremely complicated situation to resolve (of her own making, of many years). On the other hand ( hear with me here...I'm giving it straight)...you have never fully separated your emotional attachment to her, and you are feeling the Rescuer tug.

What is she asking if you (besides the $$$loan), and what do you served your role in her debacle?

What emotions are coming up for you now?

[Turkish]

We could have had a good, maybe better life.  I bought near the bottom of the financial crisis. We could have sold and moved into a better neighborhood with this equity.  The get rich quick scheme MLM she tried with her H failed, naturally. Everything i predicted and told her came true. What a waste.

Im long past being hurt, insulted or even vindicated. The last is a Pyhriic victory at best. I am still a little worried about how her divorce will play out. I told her that I hoped that she would be safe and that i hoped I wouldn't get a call (from the cops). Yeah, I said that. Our kids are in play, and I'm a little worried. She seems to trust her phone, but two years ago he took it from her when she tried to call me, and that was a felony.

I'm not sure how to trust her about handing the divorce even though it's none of my business. I'm just a little worried, but even so, I'll just keep doing the status quo. Exchange the kids and love and take care of them the best I can.  

[Turkish]

My D called about school concerns.  Tonight her mom asked me if I could just loan her $6k in order to pay off her highest interest credit card. I told her that it would be a good idea to suapend the vacations with the kids for 3 years. She said that she had saved up for those in cash rather than charging them. I said that a budget was fundgible and that cash paid for vacations didn't mean anything given other debt. That it could have been used to pay down debt. She didn't argue but I'm not sure she got it.  I said I'd have to think about it.  This is her highest rate card.

I think I'm stupid for even considering this though I am. What's in it for me?  Nothing.

I have the cash, though it would deplete my emergency possible layoff money. My company stock is down almost 20% due to the USA-china tariff beef. I don't want to sell stock

What's in it for me to "rescue?" And what's in it for any of us to do this for our ex's?

[Panda39]

Consequences.

Protecting her, bailing her out...enabling her is not going to help her.

Sometimes we need to learn things the hard way and it looks like she needs to in terms of money.

What do you get out of fixing it for her?  You get to be the knight in shining amour that might feel good in the short term until you look at your bank balance.

Panda39

[I Am Redeemed]

I think that sometimes, what we get out of "rescuing" is merely the avoidance of guilt/feeling like a "bad person" if we don't.

For me, this comes from a fundamental need to prove that I am "a good person", because my core negative belief is "I'm not good enough." I seek outside approval to validate my worth, and this includes rescuing others under the guise of "helping".

Also...there is the saying about the difference in "giving a man a fish" and "teaching a man to fish"...do you think your ex is capable of "learning to fish", so to speak?

If you did help her with the loan, would it actually go to pay down the debt? And if so, would she make better choices in the future, and not run the debt up again?

Or would you just be fixing the "crisis of the moment" and putting yourself in a less-than-desirable position by doing so?

[GaGrl]

You could lend her money, but you have no guarantee that she wouldn't run up debt again. Bottom line, she hasn't leaned to live within her means. I remember when I first divorced, with a old-school and minimal child support, really having to make adjustments.

[Lucky Jim]

Also...there is the saying about the difference in "giving a man a fish" and "teaching a man to fish"...do you think your ex is capable of "learning to fish", so to speak?

Excellent question, Redeemed.  What do you think, Turkish?  I have my ideas but would be interested to hear from you.  In the meantime, sorry to hear what you are going through.

LJ

[Turkish]

"Much of what is done in the name of helping others, reflect the inability of the helper to tolerate his own anxiety." -Kerr and Bowen,  Family Evaluation. 

This carne up in my FB feed just now.   

I'm not anxious about it, but have this feeling I need to do something, because I do things. 

I'm paying her full CS again since the kids and her dropped martial arts. That and her lack of car payment now will enable her to throw more money at this.  There is no guarantee overall that she will change her habits long term. 

[Harri]

Turkish, she has the means to bail herself out of this.

Money saved for vacations?... while on state assistance? 

You know this situation.   

[Turkish]

Maybe she could Lyft or Uber on the side?

[Sweetpea18]

I'm sorry Turkish, your in a pickle.  I understand the desire to make things easier and better for your kids, and also the point you can't enable or be taken advantage of, because it will continue and progress.  With that being said, I think your in an untenable position.  Have you considered trying to get you children full-time?  Would that alleviate your concerns about the ex's instability and poor financial decisions?

[Turkish]

That would send her over the edge,  and I pretty sure that there's no legal path to do so,  or be healthy for the kids or her.

My primary concern is that she,  and by extension the kids,  are safe. 

[Sweetpea18]

I understand, I'm in a similar situation, and I approached her with "maybe I can take custody for a while so you can have the time to get back on your feet" and she didn't respond well to that.  I don't think there is any right answer in this scenario, and you have to do what you think is best and your comfortable with.  All judgement's aside, she and your kids are lucky to have you.

[Turkish]

When we exchanged the kids today, she told me not to worry about loaning her the $6k, that she'd find a way.  I'm off the hook for saying no.  Even so, I'm wondering if she'll use this to try and get out of shared expenses.  I'll deal with that if it comes. 

[Sweetpea18]

I'm not sure that would have been money you would have gotten back.  I understand your predicament.  My ex just told me that she had to pay rent twice, due to a bank error, or something like that.  I think she wanted to offer giving her money, which I didn't.  I figured she can figure it out.  When we were married, I would take care of her and constantly fix all of her problems.  However, I am learning boundaries and I also figure she needs to learn how to survive on her own.  She has always had a man to bail her out and I did that for the years we were together, and at over 40, I feel like its time for her or someone else to be the primary caretaker.  It's not easy, especially cause she has our child, but I have already told her I can take our child full time if she needs extra days to work or for OT.  So far she has rebuffed my offer.

[Turkish]

She told me today that she's planning a trip with her sister (and her son) to Legoland next month. So much for saving money and paying down debt.  I didn't say anything.

[Sadly]

There you go Turkish
She answered your question and you are 6,000 better off, you can keep it to keep your kids safe if she tumbles into more trouble with even more debt. It will crash down on her at some point, it always does. Your aim is to keep you’re kids safe and you have the financial means to do it. This is good, no?

[Turkish]

Sadly, yes, that is good. 

The latest is that she pinged her girlfriends who live on the right coast for a girl trip in February to New Orleans.  Last night she emailed to ask me to watch the kids for a week in February.  Mardi Gras, obviously.  I bit my tongue and said yes.  It must suck to remain in perpetual debt, but that's just my values. Somehow I think I'll be stuck with the next orthodontics bill...

[Gemsforeyes]

Hi Turkish-

I’m sorry to hear about your situation.  I understand the urge to “rescue” is a hard one to turn down, especially with her using your kids as leverage.

For several years I volunteered working with homeless clients doing credit repair.  A large part of what we did was to negotiate DOWN interest rates and balances on credit card debt.  Not at all difficult to do... and I’ve done it with non-homeless friends as well.  The key is putting a stop to the mindless spending.

You can look up info on how to do that and send it to your W, or suggest SHE do that and step away. 

Unless the bills are for medical, it’s generally a “behavioral problem”.  Even medical bills can be negotiated significantly  down. You didn’t cause the behavior, you cannot control it.  Full stop.

I guess in your situation this is more for informational purposes.  Obviously best for you to Save your money for real needs.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[Mutt]

Hi Turkish,

Can she get a consolidated loan for herself?  Put all of her debts into a single loan with a lower interest rate. Maybe she can do a consumer proposal, I think that it’s called a chapter 13 down there?

Can she get credit counseling maybe? That could be a way to help her is to guide her to sources that can help her.

[Turkish]

She's taking the kids to Legoland this week. It's $1800 for tickets and hotel.  She's splitting it with her sister who only has 1 kid. This doesn't include, gas, food, or trinkets. She's also talking about taking them cross-country in the spring which is after her Mardi-Gras trip in February though the airfare is covered by her company. A trip to Hawaii is in the works within 2 years with her sister and sisters-in-law.

I told her this weekend that I was thinking about applying for a job I'm pretty sure I could get.  The downside was that it  would be 40-50% travel, domestic and likely foreign. I wasn't sure how we'd work out a joint custody schedule or how it would affect the kids. Her only question: "would it be more money?"

She loves the kids, but I question her priorities.

In truth, it might be a slight pay cut since my current company is very generous with profit sharing (it's how they retain you while punishing you), but I'd be on an expense account when traveling so that would make up for some. 

S9 is only in 4th grade. If he were older, I'd consider it.  I turn 48 in 3 weeks.  I'm approaching the age of discriminating, and jumping from being a lab rat into a traveling apps engineer, traveling and training customers, this might be the time as it might not come again. They've tried to recruit me in the past.

Moral dilemma.