brainstorming ways to introduce a new boundary

[livednlearned]

I would like SD22 to ask me before she comes to stay here in my home.

This is a new boundary, at least presenting it as one directly with SD22.

Currently, she comes when she wants. She tells H, "I'm coming down" and he tells me.

She lives 6.5 hours away and has her own apartment. She has family near her town and they are worn out by her neediness. They tell her they're busy, she arrives anyway, they say fine, and then she creates drama because no one is paying attention to her.

As a result, she is coming here more. I have asked H to tell SD22, "Let me check first with LnL to make sure she's good with the timing." I've asked him for this courtesy with any visits, whether it's my other stepdaughter or family members or friends. I think SD22 needs to learn this so that she doesn't push people away in life, which is currently what's happening.

H is a mostly considerate, loving H and at the same time, SD22 has him in a codependent headlock   so he is doing his best and there is room for improvement.

This boundary has some history. To make it a boundary that I had control over, I let H know that I will no longer entertain SD22 when she comes visit if I am not consulted in advance about the timing. He now prefers to say to SD22, "Sure, you can come. LnL will be busy so you'll have to entertain yourself."

Except then she arrives and presses to do things with me. I feel resentment, and pretty soon she is complaining that no one pays attention to her. I'm the one with the most flexible schedule (and work from home).

In the past, I would do things with SD22 as a way to preemptively reduce clinging behavior toward H (which drove me nuts). This created a dynamic where H was pleased (LnL entertains SD22 and makes her feel welcome so it's good that SD22 comes here), and began expecting me to do this regularly. I was spending more time with SD22 than H was, or, we would all spend time together. Basically, rewarding SD22 for having no boundaries  

I would now like to express my boundary to SD22 as a form of support and I could use some help from friends here on how to do this.

Say SD22 arrives, I was not consulted, and then presses to do something. "LnL, let's spend some time together, walking the dog or seeing a movie."

I was thinking about saying, "How about you let me know in advance the dates you're going to be here so I can check my calendar and if it works with my schedule we can plan something. This week I have my plan already laid out."

This sounds ok on paper, but it's hard in practice because I have a flexible schedule and SD22 can see that it would be easy for me to accommodate her. I no longer suggest things she can do because she's 22 -- she can figure stuff out on her own (she used to live here).

My T has suggested I just say "No" which feels harsh to me.

I don't mind going to a movie with SD22, or going for a walk once in a while, I just want some boundaries about her visits here.

I'm planning to talk to H when he's back from a trip to let him know that I'm tightening my limits. If he feels too uncomfortable saying, "Let me consult LnL," then I will ask SD22 to consult me about her trips so I can make sure the timing works with my schedule.

She also meets her BF here (he lives 3 hours south) and I'm told after the fact that they are going to be here on x weekend. I want to be able to say to SD22, "Please check with me first about BF staying here. Your dad might say ok, that doesn't mean those dates work for me."

I'm tackling one limit at a time. She's fragile right now -- chronically suicidal and in a big life transition, applying for jobs as a teacher and adjusting to life as a college-grad-becoming-a-working-adult. Other family members are pushing her away. She is experiencing some odd paranoia/psychosis and calling H 4-5 times a day, texting nonstop.

Even so, I have asked that BF not arrive before SD22 gets here. I've asked them to park in a more convenient spot for us. I've asked them to pick up some food for themselves before they get here. So baby steps.

I am trying to move us toward healthier, more cooperative behaviors. I do worry that our home is the last place people are tolerating her so I'm sensitive to the fact that she will perceive any limits as a rejection times a thousand while she's going through a big transition.

Any thoughts on how best to approach this? I would like that she spread her visits out with other family members, or stay at her apartment, so that she's not here all summer. When I talked to H about this, he said, "SD22 is looking for jobs and will have interviews in other states and around here. Plus she has some exams and will be coming and going, so she won't be here the whole time."

Which doesn't help me have some say over the flow of her visits. We are once again letting her needs dictate when she's here.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Only Human]

Hi LnL

It's great you are working on this and that you are aware that SD22 is in need of acceptance after so much rejection. These kids of ours sure do take up a lot of emotional energy!

"How about you let me know in advance the dates you're going to be here so I can check my calendar and if it works with my schedule we can plan something. This week I have my plan already laid out."

I like this, on paper, but can see where it may not be as effective in real life application. Sometimes, my plan is to just sit around and do nothing, watch tv by myself, nap, or post my heart out on  bpdfamily! I've gone down the road of creating plans for myself so as to not be available but that's also not ideal. Since your H is giving her the heads up, "LnL will be busy," perhaps you could build on that? "I wish I could but, as H told you, I'm not able to hang with you this week." That seems like a less harsh, "No," but it's still a "No, without having to explain yourself. As my T tells me, "No" is a complete sentence.

I have asked H to tell SD22, "Let me check first with LnL to make sure she's good with the timing." I've asked him for this courtesy with any visits, whether it's my other stepdaughter or family members or friends. I think SD22 needs to learn this so that she doesn't push people away in life, which is currently what's happening.

Does your H check in with you when it comes to others visiting and just not when it comes to SD22 visiting?

~ OH

[Only Human]

I realize this doesn't address your desire that SD22 ask before visiting. Maybe add, "If you give me advance notice next time, I'll be sure to let you know when I'm available to hang out."

~ OH

[Elizabeth22]

Hi livednlearned

This may not be helpful, but I tend to agree with your therapist on this one. I assume that is who T is.

My uBPDDil has a tendency to wear everyone out too. She only lives 5 mins from us. She is really needy and asks for everything.  I used to dread answering the phone.

Then, someone reminded me that No is a complete sentence, and I just started saying no to everything, with a small explanation, but would remain firm on the no. If she ever saw wiggle room, she would try to exploit it.

She still tries, and still gets the no, but at least I am not stuck doing things I don't want to do or seeing her when I dont feel like it.

oxoxo
E22

[GaGrl]

Maybe it's the Southern approach, but I tend to purse things less bluntly than "No." Let's see...

 "Thanks for the invitation. I think your Dad told you that you would need to entertain yourself if you were here this weekend. So, no."

How open might she be to something that communicates her change in status to Adult Who Has An Apartment?

 "I'm sure you are experiencing a lot of changes now that you have graduated. That and getting a job are a big deal, and we're proud to see you moving into being an adult. One thing adults do is make sure their visits to friends and relatives work with everyone's schedules. I would ask that you check with me about visits you have in mind, because sometimes your visits don't work with our plans."

 She might freak at that, however. She's not really far past the physical "hanging on." ( That would drive me nuts.)

[Only Human]

"Thanks for the invitation. I think your Dad told you that you would need to entertain yourself if you were here this weekend. So, no."

[...]

"I'm sure you are experiencing a lot of changes now that you have graduated. That and getting a job are a big deal, and we're proud to see you moving into being an adult. One thing adults do is make sure their visits to friends and relatives work with everyone's schedules. I would ask that you check with me about visits you have in mind, because sometimes your visits don't work with our plans."

I like this. It begins with validation, followed by some positive reinforcement, then ties it all together, ending with a reasonable request.

~ OH

[FaithHopeLove]

Maybe try SET?
Something like
S I know a lot is going on in your life and you need family support. We love you and want that to happen.
E It must be hard making the transition from college to adult life. Anyone would feel a little overwhelmed and want to spend time with people they love. We want to spend time with you too.
T To make that work though I need you to call me in advance so I can check my schedule. That way we will all have a better time together.

This is my first time writing a SET
 Is this how it is done? Do you think it might work for you?

Like the others, I am here for you.
Faith

[Lollypop]

Hi LnL

Your situation feels like it’s more of a DEAR(Man) than a SET. I use DEARMAN when I want something to happen. I tend to use SET in my normal interaction when Son is dysregulated.

I’ve no idea about whether or not they be combined and, to be honest, I think the key thing is to be warm, open hearted and  authentic. My Son can spot me a mile away if I’m attempting to manoeuvre. He sees it as controlling.

I wonder if you could try using DEARMAN on your husband about this. It’s not a request, nor a boundary but more of a collaborative approach. He appreciates your need and he ensures it by making sure dates with you before agreeing to daughter’s visit. I know he’s not been able to do that so far, but is it worth another shot?  If he can do this, then the problem is solved.  

If not, I’d suggest you’re the one to approve the timings of the visits and rules. This may not go down too well and could be  thrown in your face at some point in the future. It sounds like she’s edgy at the moment and requires a “just right” approach. Do you feel that this summer is the one you want to deal with - an option might be get through this one but set some rules for future visits..

My feeling is that you and your husband must align and agree a way forward to maximise a successful outcome.

LP

[livednlearned]

"No" is a complete sentence.

OH and Elizabeth22, my T says the same thing, especially when it comes to my relationship with SD22.

T also recommends taking a deep breath, pausing a second, checking in with my body -- before responding. There are a lot of different ways to say no, she says. I'm trying to learn. I think she's suggesting I check in with myself, see how I feel, then respond. This makes saying no feel like it's less rigid, even though it's still about saying no.

Does your H check in with you when it comes to others visiting and just not when it comes to SD22 visiting?

He is learning. Getting better ... SD22 is in a class of her own.

"Thanks for the invitation. I think your Dad told you that you would need to entertain yourself if you were here this weekend. So, no."

Gagrl, I'm wondering, thinking about SD22 and our relationship, if it diminishes my no by hiding behind H? Maybe not. There is a bit of cat-and-mouse game with SD22 and using her dad to get her way. My instinct is to put our issues front and center, between the two of us. Altho I see the gist of what you are suggesting -- to give the no a soft landing.

FaithHopeLove, your SET is solid.   Especially if I were to bring up the topic when SD22 was regulated.

My Son can spot me a mile away if I’m attempting to manoeuvre. He sees it as controlling.

Same with SD22.

I wonder if you could try using DEARMAN on your husband about this. It’s not a request, nor a boundary but more of a collaborative approach. He appreciates your need and he ensures it by making sure dates with you before agreeing to daughter’s visit. I know he’s not been able to do that so far, but is it worth another shot?  If he can do this, then the problem is solved.

I sense you're right. That he deserves another shot, this time with: "I know it's hard for you to suggest this to SD22. I will tell her directly, and do it with love, so that we have some boundaries with visits -- it's good for her independence to learn this."

Do you feel that this summer is the one you want to deal with - an option might be get through this one but set some rules for future visits..

Realistically, I think this is the more likely outcome.

Realistically, seeds we plant now will probably not take root until after SD22 is at her job.

Maybe that's the metaphor to go with. Getting the soil ready. Because there is a chance she does not survive her first year of teaching and it will be easier for everyone if the collaborative goal is to ensure independence, with boundaries and everything that goes with that.

My feeling is that you and your husband must align and agree a way forward to maximise a successful outcome.

At what point do we decide our partners need us to take a big step forward?

I feel you're right, LP. I'm getting tired. Maybe this next month is truly the turning point, and the best I can do is gently outline to H how things are going to be starting sometime this summer.

[wendydarling]

Hi LnL following you on from your previous thread on Family Law, co-parenting.  

As you said in my thread it is reassuring to see things do unfold. They do, they really do LnL, for me success has been one thing at a time, keep it simple, move from step 1 when it's achieved, or well on it's way, consider the next. H needs to see change and feel a success. Have a simple long term plan, step 1,2,3 propose it to H to take the heat out of the situation may help.

From your other thread it sounds like your H is placing his efforts with your support to 1) for an adult mental health assessment (last one was at 16yrs) this is a must in my book and might be a great outcome, life changing for SD22 and your family. 2) for H and SD22 to meet with her T.

Your T is challenging (guiding) you, you your H, H SD22. You have the full picture, you are sailing the boat to calm waters to unload precious cargo  

You've also mentioned you are moving house. New pastures. Is this your first marital home together? This sounds like a great opportunity to down the road  set new visitation limits for everyone who does not live with you and H. Perhaps look ahead at your calendars for 4 months in advance and send family invites for special occasion meet ups, birthdays etc. Yikes I'm getting way ahead of myself as I see No 1 below as critical. You've also shared you are hopeful she can engage, well this maybe her moment.
From what I understand I'd prioritise
1) Adult assessment, meeting with the T. Safety plan.
2) Fill in the blank  
3) Fill in the blank  

I know this does not help your immediate discomfort. I do think if you and H crack No1 together and get the right professional support for your SD22 it's the beginning of positive change and may take the immediate pressure off everyone just knowing SD22 is in the right care for her. That's where I'd place my focus and all my efforts right now from what I understand.

Hope that's helpful, you have great input from everyone which I always find so very enlightening and helpful from those who know.

You are all truly priceless and much loved!

WDx

[Elizabeth22]

"OH and Elizabeth22, my T says the same thing, especially when it comes to my relationship with SD22. "
(sorry this I messed up this quoting thing)

I have to be reminded of that sometimes. I also have to reminded that if I actually do have free time, that doesn't mean I owe that time to someone else, I can spend it however I want, even if it means doing nothing, because that is how I choose to spend my own time.

Husband and I also both work from home, doing different things, he works for a company and telecommutes and I am self employed. For some reason, people interpret this to mean our schedules are totally flexible. Like for instance, my son and DIL thought we could do childcare during the day, because we work from home. Or she thinks she can just drop in. Or she thinks she can ask us to babysit late at night while she makes one of her very often trips to the emergency room for things that are not emergencies. I could go on, but you get the point.

For my self care, it was necessary for me to learn how to put me first (something I still struggle with), and that meant very firm boundaries that could stay in place if someone tried to bend them. I need self care to deal with the stress this entire situation brings.

It is not only OK to take care of you first, it is essential. I think we all need to be reminded sometimes, and also be reminded to do it without feeling guilty.  

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[livednlearned]

I also have to reminded that if I actually do have free time, that doesn't mean I owe that time to someone else, I can spend it however I want, even if it means doing nothing, because that is how I choose to spend my own time.

Elizabeth22, this made my day. This is the heart of it for me. I am so accommodating. I have to remind myself constantly to not feel guilty.

You are all truly priceless and much loved!

Cheers to that WD! Without friends here I seriously wonder where my family would be. I've learned so much. Many hugs all around 

You are reminding me to see the big picture and how this folds into it. Yes, the psychological evaluation is critical. It is a goal, and there are obstacles in the way over which I have no control (surprise!). SD22 is an adult, she is not my bio daughter, and H is prone to talk himself out of things, like pressing for a combo visit with SD22's T.

My T says, There will always be a better time. I know she is right, and I also argue in my mind that maybe there is a time for everything.

To be candid, I am afraid to rock this particular boat.

Maybe the best I can do is pick things up with H again, and stick to baby steps. I know that SD22 will be here most of the summer despite what I want, that's the truth of the situation. And I know she will press press press to be entertained, even more so now that she knows I set a limit.

Writing it down that way doesn't capture the intensity of what it's like to have her here 

If I want privacy, I have to lock the door. Otherwise, she will knock and knock and then open the door. If I want to get work done, I have to go in my office and put on headphones because there is always a knock -- she can't find something, she has a question about something, her leg hurts, have I fed the dog, did I mean something when I looked at her at the table last night, do I have her keys, where is her phone.

When I don't respond, she sends texts. One time she sent a text: I smell smoke. 

I picked up a book recommended here about BPD in daughters. It talks about how BPD traits contribute to a competitive family structure, and our challenge is to create a cooperative one. I am trying to think of our challenges as a family structure issue, little adjustments here and there. Tiny limits, tiny steps, little changes. Moving toward cooperation.

My T is blunt, which I probably need. Her thought is, SD22 is chronically suicidal and heading into an intense year. Her safety comes first. H and her T need to underline this and move forward with an evaluation. It's a safety issue. T's suggestion is for H to say, "We need this to better understand how to best support you, so you have a successful year transitioning. You have a great foundation and work so hard, let's get our hands around a good support strategy for everyone that matches your hard work." Or something like that. I sense SD22 will fight it.

We all walk on eggshells.

You've also mentioned you are moving house.

It's a possibility, H is looking to leave his job. I know deep in my bones that if we were to move to another state right now, SD22 would have a crisis. Is that a bad thing? It would definitely get everyone to leap forward like it did when SD was 16 and had her first psychotic episode.

1) Adult assessment, meeting with the T. Safety plan.

Those are three big things!

2) Fill in the blank  

I can only think of 2) stick to my recent limit: I will not entertain SD22 this summer.

She is testing this limit. As much as I want to be flexible, this limit will be a rigid one for me this summer. There will be a crisis I'm predicting -- SD25 is underwater with exams, work, looking for jobs, finishing school. So that's two people in the house setting limits. H works long days, sometimes weeks at a time.

I'm going to stick to two things. 

I do wish we could have a peaceful summer, with S17 healing, SD25 finishing her degree, H sorting out his career, preparing for a move if we decide to go forward with it. Maybe I compromise with myself, and ask SD22 to meet her BF closer to where he lives, since she doesn't have a schedule pinning her down. That way it's one less person to add to our stack of pick-up sticks. She can be here, and she can use her free time to travel and see him.

[stampingt1]

LnL,

Sounds like it's going to be a busy summer for everyone. I agree w/ the others that have said to start by having assessment w/ T & H, SD22. Followed by loving setting the boundary for visiting.

When you described SD22 knocking on the door, made me think of Sheldon from "The Big Bang Theory."

Good luck!  Keep us posted!

Stampingt1

[StressedOutDaily]

I just wanted to thank you LNL for asking the question and everyone who commented and gave advise...as a person who is just learning these skills to use with my child...this was great to read and learn from. 

LNL...Wishing you the best and looking forward to hear how things work out.

[Elizabeth22]

Elizabeth22, this made my day. This is the heart of it for me. I am so accommodating. I have to remind myself constantly to not feel guilty.

Glad I could remind you   I could read the struggle in your post and I really identified with it. It's a hard habit to break, but you can do it, I know you can   That is why I said just go with the "No",  it might seem harsh, but it is direct and to the point.  That is what helped me anyway, to get to where I could say no and not feel the guilt.   But you have to do what feels most comfortable for you.

[livednlearned]

H and SD22 got back from their trip last night.

Before he left, he said he was going to talk to her about seeing her T together, encouraging her to get a full adult work-up.

He didn't do it 

Me, gently asking him the question, made him tense up.

I think this family is going to wait for a crisis.

[wendydarling]

Cheers to that WD! Without friends here I seriously wonder where my family would be. I've learned so much. Many hugs all around  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Me too, a way back  I recall sharing I learn something everyday with family of friends here, I still do and always will. We are a collaborative family  

Writing it down that way doesn't capture the intensity of what it's like to have her here  Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)

This is it. I finally understand how you feel, what's happening. I've only felt relentlessly hounded by one person in my life 27 years ago. I buried it. All those feelings have come flooding back, my heart raced earlier today. I'll stand back and share in a later post in your thread, I need a wee time to think and feel it.

To be candid, I am afraid to rock this particular boat.

As is H, having returned from his trip.  Hard stuff.  I have to find the right moment for both me and DD for it to be successfully delivered and received, I go off my gut feeling. For me I've learnt these conversations can't be forced, if it's just not the right time, I accept that and I look for the next opportunity, meanwhile I'm gaining more confidence, with what I'm going to say. I get there in the end! Perhaps it maybe time for crisis ~ for SD22 to own, either route can lead to success. I went down the crisis route, cos I was not aware, I had no LnL.  It came out of nowhere and smacked me. I made it to survivor, I'm now thriving.

Knock, knock ~ have you thought of hanging a kindly message on your personal door when you are having quiet/work/personal time? What do you think it might say that catches SD22's attention and her respect?

What was the trip they took? Interview?

WDx

[livednlearned]

I have to find the right moment for both me and DD for it to be successfully delivered and received, I go off my gut feeling.

Yes, and I understand. H wanted to have a Lollypop light-as-a-fairy vacation   I don't blame him and I am also frustrated. He is the one who suggested this had to happen with some urgency. Deep down, I felt that it was big talk, nothing else. With a tiny bit of hope.

have you thought of hanging a kindly message on your personal door when you are having quiet/work/personal time?

"Grumpypants McGrouchy works here. Walk away"    

I frosted the glass panes on my doors for privacy. Privacy from SD22. She will sit outside the door talking on her phone while I work. Her social skills are not great. I've said to SD22, Hey, I have to close my door when I'm busy, put on headphones -- I get distracted easily, this works for me." Maybe I need stronger language? Even if I don't respond to her interruptions, I feel irritated.  

SD25 says the same thing: SD22 is incapable of being alone.

What was the trip they took? Interview?

A dad-daughter post-graduation trip.

H: SD22 will probably be here a week from Sunday for the rest of June, her BF will be coming up when his work schedule permits.

LnL: I know this is hard, to set limits with SD22 and visits. At the very least, please consult me so I have some say in the timing. Let me be your partner on this, we can work together. Sometimes I will say no, more often than not I will say yes. Let's do this one small thing together and build on it."

Then: "My one request is that SD22 not visit in July from x to x dates. I'm traveling, you're traveling, we have two days of overlap, SD25 wants that time to study undisturbed for board exams, then I'm here on my own and would like that time to myself. Let's not pile on too much -- it's reasonable to set a limit. SD22 can work around our schedule."

H: "I can't talk about this every day."

LnL: "I'm letting you know in advance my wishes. Is it a reasonable request?"

H: Yes. I love you. I'm feeling tense -- things are going well, I want things to go well this summer."

LnL: You want things to go well and so do I, we're on the same page. Let's block out this time in advance so SD22 can plan around it. It's a week."

H: "I want to make sure we don't talk about this every day. It was a good trip, we kept things light."

I feel the drama triangle in these conversations. That I am being cast in the role of persecutor, even when SD22 is not present.

EDIT: I wonder why not speak directly to SD22?

This is from the page on Karpmann drama triangle:

Giving directions and telling others what we want rather than blaming them for doing things wrong or invalidating them, shows them how to be successful and feels a lot better, too. We are also more likely to get more cooperation from others that way.It also means we will take responsibility for how we act and feel around the other person without taking the attitude that the other person is controlling our feelings or actions. This means if the other person does something we don’t like, we say or do something about it. We acknowledge that we are choosing how we respond, emotionally and behaviorally, without blaming the other person for causing our feelings and actions.

I believe the psych eval will not happen, the visit with SD22's T will not happen, limits to SD22's visits will not happen.

I only have control over the last one, how I handle this. At what point do I decide H is in the weeds on this. At what point do I wade in there and say, "Hey, consult with me SD22. I'm hoping to see you in June and plan some time together. Other days in July don't work. Check with me to see if BF's dates work, too. I have some things planned and it's easier to pull it off if the house is empty. We have to be sensitive to SD25's exam schedule too -- she's feeling some stress."

[Nope]

L&L,

If it was me, I’d call SD once a month and schedule her visits. Have a calendar open and ask her what dates she’s thinking because you want to make sure you make time for her. Tell her you’ve taken on some extra projects (self care and fun count as projects) and now you need to do tighter scheduling in advance or you won’t get to see her. So tell her what works for you and block out dates and times that are yours and hers. Then no matter what else happens that whole month the answer becomes “I can’t accommodate that because it’s not on the schedule. But then point to your next scheduled activity with her to keep it positive.

Even if you’re sitting on the couch scrolling through Instagram and it’s a walk she wants, simply say you’re doing a little research, having a text conversation, whatever. Be vague. It’s none of her business. You’ve given her guaranteed scheduled time. If she whines, it’s not your fault, it’s the schedule. It is what it is.

If she insists on showing up when you have no scheduled time with her, then “Oops! Darn it! There is nothing on the schedule.” But you’ll absolutely call her at the beginning of the month to get something scheduled for next month  so this doesn’t happen again.

[Elizabeth22]

Hi livednlearned

I was just wondering if I could clarify something. I am not  sure I understand. If these are too many questions, feel free to just skip it.

She has an apartment 6.5 hours away? Is this her year long residence or for school? Will she still have it this summer?

If so, she plans to spend the month of June with you and maybe more? If not, where is her residence now?

Does she plan to work over the summer? Or just hang out at your house as much as she can? And her boyfriend is close by?

I really can relate to  "I feel the drama triangle in these conversations. That I am being cast in the role of persecutor, even when SD22 is not present."

I read your conversation with your husband and it reminded me so much of conversations with my son about his wife, my uBPDDil (she sort of is diagnosed, after my husband talked to his therapist about what we were going thru, for years, his therapist is pretty convinced she is BPD). Also, she said she had a diagnosis of Bipolar in her file that she was not told about for years, according to her, but I think there is more too it, especially since she got SSDI immediately, on the first try for mental condition. Anyway...

Back to the villain part, my son always made me the  villain, to the point of actually making up things about me because he absolutely did not want to deal with or face his wife's issues. It was just so much easier to blame me. In a moment of absolute rage and honesty he was having with and at me, he blurted out "I dont like it when you say what you say about her, because you are always right, and I know it, and it makes me face my anger at her, and I dont want to." So, that is why I was being made the villain. I could almost read it in your conversation with your husband. I got the feeling he did not want to address any of your concerns, because he would have to face the truth or maybe his anger or frustration. I am not saying he does not care about your concerns and I am not saying this is ok, and I could be wayyyyyyy off on this, but it just reminded me of my situation a bit. (This particular incident  described above happened when I was trying to troubleshoot a fairly serious incident with her and brainstorming with him about preventing it from happening again - trying to prevent a crisis.)

Sorry if I am all over the place, DIL started another round of drama today and  I am trying to process and get my thoughts together enough to start another thread about it. I'm ok tho, we are focusing on you here.

oxoxox
E22

[GaGrl]

I want to say that this discussion is very helpful as we are navigating a grandchild who has turned 18 and "thinks" she is independent, yet has major assumptions as to how her future expenses will be paid. Her mother is trying to provide common sense goals, while the uNPD/BPD grandmother (my DH's ex) is saying that the GC18 is now an adult and can do whatever she wants. We cringe at what might come in the next 3-6 months as one part of the family imposes boundaries and budget limits, while the Ex does not ( yet imposes "conditions").

Not the same situation, I realize, but the thought process to get there is quite similar.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[stampingt1]

LNL,

Sorry that hubby didn't talk to SD22 about anything during their time together. 

It's looking more like you'll have to "take the bull by the horns" to discuss scheduling visits this summer for SD22.  Good luck!

Stampingt1 

[livednlearned]

I’d call SD once a month and schedule her visits.

This is a great idea. Thinking about this...I'm at the inflection point right before doing something like what you're suggesting. The question is: Do I bypass H and go directly to SD22?

I have wendydarling's voice in my ear: consider the timing. SD22 is in a big transition, things are in flux, H can easily say that this will resolve soon when SD22 gets a job. If she works 6 hours away, she won't be here as much. If she gets hired in our town, I will have a small coronary.

She has an apartment 6.5 hours away? Is this her year long residence or for school? Will she still have it this summer?

Yes, her college apartment - the lease is through end of July. Expectation is she'll have a job by August and be readying for a move.

she plans to spend the month of June with you and maybe more?

Yes. She has some interviews and exams and a wedding this week, then she'll be back for an indefinite period of time. I've asked that she stay elsewhere for one week in July.

Does she plan to work over the summer? Or just hang out at your house as much as she can? And her boyfriend is close by?

She doesn't plan to work this summer. Her job is to find a job -- she's doing a lot to make that happen. She's applying back in her college town, in the town near her uBPD mom, near us, near her BF. Her BF is roughly 3 hours away.

I got the feeling he did not want to address any of your concerns, because he would have to face the truth or maybe his anger or frustration

This is absolutely true in our situation, Elizabeth22. If he is honest about his feelings with regard to SD22, then he would have to first acknowledge and then change his behavior. He would have to give up the payoff of being in a codependent relationship with her. He gets to be her rescue dad and while he does experience exhaustion in that role, he is also getting something out of it. To be fair, he is also terrified that she will take her life. To the point he is in remarkable denial. Sometimes he can address is almost directly. Then he sees her regulated and like many of us do, assumes everything will be great going forward.

DIL started another round of drama today

I'll look for your thread to hear more. In the meantime, big  

We cringe at what might come in the next 3-6 months as one part of the family imposes boundaries and budget limits, while the Ex does not

Your situation might be harder, Gagrl. With H, he is embarrassed and exasperated by what is happening. It may be well buried, but he does have a sense that things are in need of correction, as much as he wants to put it off. I've found it helpful to remind myself again and again about the dynamics of the winning center of the Karpmann triangle -- proposing the reasonable way does shine light on extreme positions.

It not reasonable to believe that SD22 can come here whenever she wants without checking with everyone who lives here, who will be affected by her visit.

It's then not reasonable to expect me to entertain her or reassure her or rescue her from feeling abandoned when H is working.

It's not reasonable that we cater to BF's work schedule and drop everything so he can stay.

It's not reasonable that BF arrives 2 hours early and rings the door expecting to come in before SD22 is here.

It's not reasonable that we don't have a safety plan for someone dx'd bipolar, whose own T is recommending a more comprehensive evaluation and revisited diagnosis, whose psychiatrist says is chronically suicidal, who is regularly calling the suicide hotline and whose own T is having to set boundaries.

I'm angry. I feel angry that H's fears are in the way of getting SD22 the help she needs.

[GaGrl]

LnL, one thing that occurs to me is that your SD22 simply doesn't think her apartment is "home." She sees your house as her home and so, there is no need to communicate plans. She is simply coming and going at her own home.

[livednlearned]

It seems to feel like home when people are living there with her.

If she is alone, nowhere is home. 

[Elizabeth22]

Hi livednlearned

Thanks for explaining all that, things are more clear to me now.

You know, I really feel anger on your behalf that you have to manage this and tolerate it. I know how I feel about dealing with my DIL and I rarely even see her.

My DIL used to do that to my son when he worked from home, he had to be on the phone a lot and she would yell out to him all the time and ask him stupid things. He's been fired from jobs because she 'needed' him at home, or would call him constantly at work to the point where his boss said he was not allowed any phone calls at all,  and there was a while when she would not 'let' him work, they lived off her disability payments and any relative she could shake down. I really feel for you.

I understand what you are saying about your husband too, I just realized today during a phone call with my son, that he is ignoring a lot and not having conversations with DIL that I think he should be and thought he was, in regard to our relationship with them, and particularly her.   

I'm afraid I don't have a lot of wisdom to offer today, I just want you to know I am here and supporting you.

I did think of one thing tho. If when you are trying to get something done and she keeps interrupting, is it possible to say that if you don't get whatever you are working on done now or soon, you may not  be able to keep that date to do xyz or whatever with her because you will need to catch up on what you are not able to do now? Sorry, if that is clumsily worded, but in other words - I need to do this now so I will have time to do xyz with you later?

Much Love,
E22  oxoxox

[livednlearned]

I just realized today during a phone call with my son, that he is ignoring a lot and not having conversations with DIL that I think he should be and thought he was, in regard to our relationship with them, and particularly her.

It's amazing how powerful that fear is, to say what needs to be said.

I just want you to know I am here and supporting you.

Thank you.  

I need to do this now so I will have time to do xyz with you later?

Unfortunately, if I open the door or answer a text, I send the message that I can be interrupted. So with my T's help, I've learned to focus on actions, less on words.

Emotionally, it's not that different than dealing with a toddler. SD22 wants what she wants and she wants it now. The "I smell smoke" text came when I was relying on words to have limits. I did text back, "the smoke alarm will go off if there is a fire" and then Sit. On. My. Hands. I don't want SD22 to discover that disasters work. I realize there is a potential consequence but I also know that in this case, the batteries in our smoke alarm work and my sense of smell is unparalleled.  

As strange as it sounds I think SD22 begrudgingly respects me. I am relatively consistent with limits when they are things I have direct control over.

I know she is trying to get attention as a way to have a relationship and I wish I was skilled enough to help her do that in a healthy way. All I've been able to figure out so far is setting consistent limits with firmness and kindness.

I had a middle of the night epiphany last night that I'm on losing ground, trying to change this limit at this time.

There is too much flux this summer. Anything I suggest, H will counter with, "big changes for SD22 right now, let's support her." He doesn't see it as an overall trend in her issues with independence/abandonment, he sees it like she's rightfully more anxious and stressed because it's a big transition.

I read about a skill that helps with saying no. It might be the best thing I can do with SD22 this summer. It's using If/Then language. If SD22 asks why I'm not doing things with her, then I'll say, "You and your dad made arrangements -- you are his house guest. When people consult with me about visiting, then I consider them my house guest, or when your dad and I talk together, it's our house guests. We look at our schedules together and figure things out. Otherwise, I assume you two have things worked out and I am not expected to change plans."

Or something like that.

I don't know. Maybe no one has ever spelled it out clearly for her. I want to be able to give her a chance to learn healthy behavior so she can have functioning relationships with people. If she pushes her way into people's houses without respecting their time and permission, then she will always be on the outside looking in.