Saying no, authority and splitting input needed.

[Depression = 72% of members]

I would like to understand three things, please. I have been married for 29 years to my ASD/BPD husband. We found out about the ASD in 2010. The BPD only this year when my daughter was diagnosed with it. My whole marriage has shifted into focus. I am doing loads of reading and research into BPD so I can better understand both my husband and daughter. As I have spent the better part of my life always seeming like the one to blame for everything its going to take time to find healing and new ways to interact.

The three things I would like to know...

1. Why is it that neither of them can handle any form of he word NO? From "No you may not eat more cheese" through to "No, you may not abuse substances" Both these will equally escalate their tempers.
2. Why do they have such an issue with authority? Whether it's a boss telling then what to do, the cop setting a speed trap or the poor security guard who has to sign them through a office entrance?
3. Why do they split? I am generally the brunt of it, I am not sure if I am positioning myself as authority in their lives, but either way, when I make her salad for lunch or his coffee I'm the good mom/wife. If I say no to sex to him or no to her wearing risky clothing, I am demonised.
Thank you for your input.

[MomSA]

I would like to understand three things, please. I have been married for 29 years to my ASD/BPD husband. We found out about the ASD in 2010. The BPD only this year when my daughter was diagnosed with it. My whole marriage has shifted into focus. I am doing loads of reading and research into BPD so I can better understand both my husband and daughter. As I have spent the better part of my life always seeming like the one to blame for everything its going to take time to find healing and new ways to interact.

The three things I would like to know...

1. Why is it that neither of them can handle any form of he word NO? From "No you may not eat more cheese" through to "No, you may not abuse substances" Both these will equally escalate their tempers.
2. Why do they have such an issue with authority? Whether it's a boss telling then what to do, the cop setting a speed trap or the poor security guard who has to sign them through a office entrance?
3. Why do they split? I am generally the brunt of it, I am not sure if I am positioning myself as authority in their lives, but either way, when I make her salad for lunch or his coffee I'm the good mom/wife. If I say no to sex to him or no to her wearing risky clothing, I am demonised.
Thank you for your input.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

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[once removed]

1. Why is it that neither of them can handle any form of he word NO? From "No you may not eat more cheese" through to "No, you may not abuse substances" Both these will equally escalate their tempers.

different personality types respond to this in different ways. some personality types like to push limits, and rebel. some people (all of us to some extent) have difficulty staving off the need for immediate gratification.

if you are dealing with people with problems with authority, "no" essentially invites that rebellion. you are, in essence, positioning yourself in authority, and if you can learn to change your response (this will take a lot of trial and error...anything from switching to positive reinforcement, to natural consequences, to doing nothing), i suspect you will see a great deal more peace in your life. eliminate the push, eliminate the push back.

[MomSA]

But sometimes NO needs to be said?

[once removed]

sure.

but for the most part, its more effective when its about what we will or wont do. if i had a friend ask me if ill take drugs with them, id say "no i wont do that". but i cant really tell him "no you cant do that", right?

the same applies with your husband. hes an adult.

obviously its a bit different with your daughter. youre her parent, parents set limits and consequences. when youre dealing with a highly sensitive, and rebellious child though, what might work with another child will only escalate the rebelliousness, and the conflict, where another style and different approaches (emphasizing positive reinforcement, for example) can create a great deal more peace in your life.

does that make sense?

[MomSA]

sure.

but for the most part, its more effective when its about what we will or wont do. if i had a friend ask me if ill take drugs with them, id say "no i wont do that". but i cant really tell him "no you cant do that", right?

Yes this makes sense. But even then, he expects me to go along with what he wants to do and saying no escalates him to fury. I suppose those things I am willing to receive this retaliation from, will need to be the absolutes... ?

[Rigger-rat]

I'm really new to all of this. But have been learning a great deal and figuring out things from the past seven years,
But I've had the same responses from my spouse when I've told her no.
Especially on the sex subject.
It seems to me, that when a BP gets focused onto something they want they expect you to go along with them. It's just their natural way of thinking, even when it's a destructive behavior or action. They still expect you to agree but are wanting you to disagree at the same time. That way the consequences can be shifted from their responsibility to yours.
What has worked some with my spouse is shifting it back onto her.
Like, no I dont want to participate in drug use, and I would appreciate you not doing so either. Just know I cant be around you if you do, and that is your choice.

[waverider]

pwBPD have a part of their mind where they play out a lot of their thoughts and actions. They see this as private, a no go zone for others. This is were their basic needs and urges are rooted. When you say "no" it is seen as denial of their basic rights ad you are trespassing, so you must be rejected at all cost.

You probably find their response to your nos' escalate off at tangents and deflections. This why more words are a waste. No's need to be shown by actions more than words, as these cannot be as readily redirected, or dragged into JADE which is where pwBPD try to drag "no's", so that they can be undermined

Whether you are good/bad is a direct reaction as to whether you are meeting their immediate need or not. The actual validity of your response is irrelevant, it is simply whether it is agreeable or not. There is no 'big picture". That comes from being emotionally immature.

They are validation junkies and constantly want others to validate what they are already thinking, even to the extent that they can pass on responsibly to others for their actions. eg X said it would be a good idea to do such a thing. When in reality X was just thinking "whatever" I cant be bothered arguing.

[MomSA]

You probably find their response to your nos' escalate off at tangents and deflections. This why more words are a waste. No's need to be shown by actions more than words, as these cannot be as readily redirected, or dragged into JADE which is where pwBPD try to drag "no's", so that they can be undermined

Thank you, your response was helpful.

What is JADE?

[waverider]

What is JADE?

Justify,
Argue,
Defend,
Explain,

This is what happens when someone is giving you the hard sell, you start over defending, they keep pushing and you start using secondary explanations and it starts sounding weaker and weaker until you give in. You know it is happening as you feel like you have been bullied and manipulated...Think the pushy salesman who sells you that vacuum cleaner you didn't want but you bought it just to get rid of him, as your progressively weaker excuses failed.

[Chosen]

Saying "no" to my uBPDh is a huuuge trigger.  I have 2 theories about it:

1. He has a super-high validation need.  pwBPDs usually have a higher-than-normal validation need anyway, and he probably is at the higher end of that.  Saying "no" to him is invalidating him, because for him, saying no to something he suggests = saying no to him as a person.  It means he has no use.  Yeah twisted thinking I know, but I think that's how he operates.

2. He sways from being narcissistic to ashamed.  I don't know if he has NPD traits or not (none of that matters as he will probably never be diagnosed), but he has a very weak image of himself that changes with how others see/ treat him.  In order to gain a sense of "self", he needs to assert himself (like how children start being assertive and expressing their own opinions), and when you say "no", he takes it as you're dismissing him.

I agree that sometimes "no" is required, but as nons we probably can practise using words other than "no", since I feel that pwBPDs will immediately shut down when they hear "no", and none of the things you say will actually go into their head.  They will just fixate on the invalidation (and therefore humiliation) they have suffered.  I'm still learning myself, and not doing so well in this aspect.  I think we have to focus on the prize sometimes: what is the result we want?  We want them to stop doing xyz.  And if saying "no" isn't going to stop them, we need to find an alternative. 

[MomSA]

1. He has a super-high validation need.  pwBPDs usually have a higher-than-normal validation need anyway, and he probably is at the higher end of that.  Saying "no" to him is invalidating him, because for him, saying no to something he suggests = saying no to him as a person.  It means he has no use.  Yeah twisted thinking I know, but I think that's how he operates.

So what do you do/say? It seems only two options - say nothing, or say it and let the chips fall where they may. To me it seems that if I don't say what needs to be said, then I am walking around on eggshells and worrying about his reaction which is not really my problem? I am not talking about being unkind or hurtful, I am not that kind of person...but just trying to figure this out for greater peace in my home and relationship

2. He sways from being narcissistic to ashamed.  I don't know if he has NPD traits or not (none of that matters as he will probably never be diagnosed), but he has a very weak image of himself that changes with how others see/ treat him.  In order to gain a sense of "self", he needs to assert himself (like how children start being assertive and expressing their own opinions), and when you say "no", he takes it as you're dismissing him.

What does ashamed look like in a BPD person? Is this borne on the inside? I have never had an apology or seem shame, so can only think its internal.

I agree that sometimes "no" is required, but as nons we probably can practise using words other than "no", since I feel that pwBPDs will immediately shut down when they hear "no", and none of the things you say will actually go into their head.  They will just fixate on the invalidation (and therefore humiliation) they have suffered.  I'm still learning myself, and not doing so well in this aspect.  I think we have to focus on the prize sometimes: what is the result we want?  We want them to stop doing xyz.  And if saying "no" isn't going to stop them, we need to find an alternative. 

Can you brainstorm those alternatives?

[Chosen]

To me it seems that if I don't say what needs to be said, then I am walking around on eggshells and worrying about his reaction which is not really my problem?

I think "careful speech" is a spectrum.  It's not either "walking on eggshells" or "say whatever is on my mind".  I was born quite temperamental and my mouth is definitely quicker than my brain so I had a case of verbal diarrhea, and then I got scared and started walking on eggshells.  Effective communication, I think, is the middle ground between these two (I'm still trying to get the hang of it, and obviously fail a lot of times too). 

I see communication with a pwBPD as a means to an end.  You have to fix your eyes on the prize.  Say he is doing something you disapprove of.  Has saying "no" to his actions ever led to him stop doing it?  It will likely trigger even more unpleasant feelings in him and he may rebel against whatever you said (think a 3 year old).  Do you want to say "no" to him just for the sake of it, or so that he would stop doing it?  If you want him to stop, you need to find a way that will get through to him.  Maybe you could try validating him first, then add a suggestion (but don't use the word "but") for the alternative.  But ultimately you have to let go of whether or not he chooses to accept your alternative, because he's a grown person and you can't control him.

What does ashamed look like in a BPD person? Is this borne on the inside? I have never had an apology or seem shame, so can only think its internal.

When my uBPDh is ashamed (usually disproportionately so, like he made a small mistake and will say "I'm such a loser.  I wanna kill myself now."), he will quickly turn it into blame for somebody else ("No wonder you hate me so much."- I don't, but he can't admit it's his own self-loathing and nobody else thinks of him like that), or just generally dysregulate.  If you so much bring up whatever was making him ashamed, that's a huge trigger.  Even if you tell him you don't hate him, you don't think he's useless, it's a small problem, he doesn't understand it, and he will just project all those feelings of self-hate on you.  He wouldn't appreciate the fact that you have forgiven him for whatever he has done.  He will just be angry with you for bringing the topic up, and because you brought it up, that means you hate him.

[MomSA]

Thank you Chosen, this was helpful

[waverider]

Often distraction is a good way around an outright no. Focus on different aspects of what is being said and expanding them into alternative options. Even if it does make you sound like a slippery politician. the no card shold always be in your back pocket as a final resort though. Even knowing it is there means you are not totally disempowered