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Author Topic: PART 2: My family is falling appart  (Read 590 times)
JoeBPD81
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« on: June 20, 2019, 03:52:07 PM »

The first part of this thread is here:   https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=336879.0

Thanks for the support. It is painful to watch.

I can't say it's all her fault, I haven't known how to improve things. I had no previous experience, and at first my job was only to be liked by the kids of my gf.

As you might guess, she is extremely sensitive to criticism. And I couldn't say "I know better", because I didn't. I only had common sense, but she had the experience.

I often find that her ideas are good. But then most of them are not put into practice, and certainly not with some consistency.

She can't see them suffer. So after they get sad, or whatever, she goes after them and distracts them. Or she asks that they forgive her.  So that sadness never turns into "what can I do differently next time?". It turns into "oh, it was Mama's fault anyway, is all good".

I get it that she wants to compensate for a dad that doesn't even want to see them. And the rest of the family kind of avoids them also, because they are not easy kids. So a bit of indulging sure wouldn't do much harm... But it did.

I often felt left outside when it comes to the kids. I can be used for a number of things, and I have to love them unconditionally, but my opinion doesn't count.

She's told me many times that I would raise them alone better than her. But together, she can't see me raising my voice, or even criticizing something of them, without seeing me as the enemy.

Then, in practice, if they behave better with me, she gets green with envy and hates my guts. And also hates herself more.

Myself, I can't say I would do better. I don't know. They seem incapable of learning to me, and I would lose my temper often. Even as I'm told there's no one with more patience than me.

As they seem in their way to go. I try very hard not to say things in the line of "you ruined this family". Of course the kids are not to blame. But when the stress goes to crazy levels it's hard to not see it like that. She's been wonderful when we had a couple of days without kids. And life has been easy when S12 is in a field trip or something.

I tell them that we are a team, and that for them it's funny to block the throws of their own basketball team mates, but that for no one else is fun. And at the end of the game, they also lose. We don't ask them to score a lot of points, but we ask them not to play against their own team, the family.

Lately they have started to tell how each of them (the other) behave at home to their friends and their parents going out of school. And we explained that the whole family is viewed as bad, not just the person they tell about, that our own whole family loses. People can start asking their kids not to mix with us.

They both play basketball, so I hope the metaphor sticks somehow. But neither of them are really team players.

Myself, I keep complaining. And my frustration, even the unrelated one gets in the way of building something good. I'm trying to look at things differently, and just be the best person I can be on any given moment. Not aiming for her approval, but to do some good.

When I got home from work, mom was mad reading a book, S12 was watching TV, again. And S8 came crying and hugged me and couldn't let me go. He was saying he didn't want to live anywhere else. I hugged and comforted him, but no one explained to me what was spoken before I arrived.
It was painful, because I couldn't say "you can stay, you're not going anywhere, we can make it work..." Because I'm out of the loop, and I don't have a say in their future. I don't even have information to give them.

Things are different now, but I don't know if you are saying that I chose to be along for the ride, and not be a part of the parenting. Or if you're saying that that's just the way it is. I know some of it is my fault, and all this left me feeling unfit to be a parent, and unwilling to try again too. This kids seem certainly on their way to become some kind of criminal or another, and I played my part on that. So I won't touch another kid's life again.

I don't know if it's all parenting. They have a half brother that has nothing to do with my exGf, and he was a psychopath as a teen. So much that none of their parents kept his custody and he went to a foster family. But in my exGf's family, most of her uncles were like that too, some did time, her father also was in jail most of her life... It could be a chain of bad parenting, but there has to be something genetic too. I can't believe the absolute lack of compassion of these kids when Mom is really sick, or crying her eyes out. They've talked about the possibility of her dying in these terms "I call dibs in living with this or that relative!" As if it was a game.

All this tests my sanity.

« Last Edit: June 22, 2019, 12:27:33 PM by Harri » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2019, 06:53:04 PM »


She can't see them suffer. 


So..I've obviously got strong opinions about parenting.  Raising 8 kids will test you!

On the one hand, all 8 required different "touches" because they are all very different personalities.  On the other hand, there is knowledge that your job as a parent is to raise you kid to survive and hopefully thrive in a hard world.

That world involves suffering.  It's just a fact of lie.  I raise all of my kids to understand they will suffer and that I have full confidence in their ability to persevere and come through it a stronger person.

Kids (and even adults) grow stronger through "being torn down"  (hang with me..it will make sense)

Think about your immune system.  Does it get stronger by having an anti-septic environment where you never get sick?  (nope!)  It gets stronger by facing adversity. 

People are designed the same way.  The confidence gained by overcoming hard things and injustice matures people.

Coddling people is the same as handicapping them.

Back to my comments about boundary's.  I would advise you to take a hard look at if you are helping or hurting a situation.  Based on your answers..take action.  The last thing you want is to "enable" a bad parent. 

Clarity:  I'm not suggesting you are or that you should leave.  I'm suggesting you take a hard look.  That's all.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2019, 02:59:47 AM »

That explanation is precisely my point by saying that she can't see them suffering. They can't grow, because she saves them from every failure. She even does a lot of homework for them. I tell them, and her, "the point is not that the homework is finished, the point is what they learn by doing it, and finding out how it is done". When I help them, I try to not give them the answers (I get some comments about being a cruel parent for that).

You know that technique that says that parents should let babies cry a bit before they go rushing in their room, and increase that time bit by bit? And eventually the baby would sleep without crying. She thinks that's an abomination. That it is cruel, and the only outcome would be that the baby thinks their parents don't love him.

She has her own issues, fear of abandonment being one of them. And she doesn't want them to feel that.

All my admiration about your raising 8 kids, OMG!

I told her they need the suffering to grow, and they need to grow to be happy and to make a change in their lives. That our job is not that they like us, our job is to prepare them for the day they will be alone. She says I expect them to be adults and not kids. I can't communicate the difference between expecting them to be something and setting that goal for them, and understanding they won't be there in one day. But that doesn't mean we don't show them that's where they are going.

This way they have  a life of a prince, a dictator-y one. But they are not happy.
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« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2019, 03:09:46 AM »

You job as parents is to manage the transition from being a baby to a fully functioning healthy adult. It is not to raise them, it is not to drag them up, it's to provide age appropriate boundaries around them... not too close such they hit the barbs all the time, not too far that they go to great lengths to find the fence to gain some comfort.

It's a challenge try to explain to someone who has little or no executive function using rational arguments how and what they're doing is unproductive and in many cases damaging.

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« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2019, 06:24:49 AM »

    She says I expect them to be adults and not kids. 

I hope you just said yes..I do expect them to be an adult..someday. 

Ok...so what is your role in this now?  What influence do you have? 

How is your involvement creating a better life for you?  For the children?  (yes..think of it and answer it in that order)

Best,

FF
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« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2019, 04:29:12 PM »

Well, I'm defeated and with a high level of anxiety. I'm trembling and I feel my blood pumping I'm my arms and chest.

I tried to be calm and strong in the presence of the kids and exGf. And now that I'm alone I'm shaking.

I'm gonna try to explain what happened. I came from work and I knew they had been watching TV for a while. So I announced I was gonna put something on that I also liked, I offered them a choice. They complained, but took it well soon. Then we talked, the 4 of us, about what we wanted to do this afternoon. S12, came and go, said he didn't love us but he loved S8 (he had slapped him not one minute before, and was sent to his room). We played a board game with s8. After some time, S12 joined us, asked forgiveness and it was ok-ish.

Then they had some videogame time, while we talked and did some house chores. After some minutes I asked S12, how's the game? (He was playing a sport game and winning) he said "fine, now leave me alone!" In a very rude tone. Mom heard and came, "did he say...? Pause the game and apologize, you won't have another warning." And he said asking other things "sorry, there, done, now you let me play you old fart" his voice fading out because he knew he was getting himself in trouble. So he jumped to take the TV remote so we couldn't turn it off. And I said, "you had your chance, we told you there wouldn't be a second warning" and I motioned towards turning everything off. He got up and said he didn't love any of us, and he pushed his mom very violently. She landed against a tall bookcase and then on the floor. He stormed off while I went to assist mom. She has bruises in her arms and back.

He's 12, but he's already as tall as mom, and much heavier (mom is anorexic).

After seeing she was ok, I asked her what to do. I said if it was some guy in the street, I would beat the c out of him. If it was someone else's child, I would call the police.
Banishing him to Grandma's house would be more trouble than help. So he was just ignored and he had to stay away from everyone. He apologized several times after a long while, and after parading proudly "just going for a glass of water" showing off he had no remorse. So he apologized only when he was bored of being alone.

I told him if anything of the sort happened again, I would call the police even if that meant that mom wouldn't talk to me anymore.

He still asked for sweets after dinner and TV, and hugs, kept bothering s8... A bit ashamed because he knew we could snap at him, but not too much.

I spent most of the evening just being a body guard for s8 and mom. Sending him back to his room when he came out. I don't know if I should have called the police anyway. It's not the first time he hits someone, and the verbal abuse is also terrible day after day.

At this point she is afraid of being alone with S12. And we don't know what to do with him. He says "I'm sorry" but he doesn't even start to do anything to atone for his actions. The words don't mean anything. His manner is saying "can we stop the being mad at me so I can start asking for things again?".

He knows his role is terrorizing the family, and that is damaging to himself. He has assumed an "I'm the bad guy" attitude. And he doesn't even try to hide it anymore.

No one can live like this. S8 had lived his whole life under this stress. He has many nervous ticks, and lately he just tunes out of reality, he's just not there. He's singing or taking to himself and you can't get him to listen or answer any question. He's showing his ADHD to an infinite level. Mom had plenty of abuse from adults and now she has to fear her own son. No wonder she wants to kill herself.

I try to not lose my mind, but this makes less sense than a nightmare. I feel I wish I could immobilize S12 in his room so the rest of us could have some hours of peace.

This stress will kill us.

Just to illustrate his level of disinterest in doing things right, he doesn't flush the toilet, this way we also know he doesn't even use toilet paper after going number 2. He stains his clothes and can go uncomfortable all day, but wiping is too much trouble. If you add that he refused to shower most days... On top of his behavior being revolting, he smells.

We want to reward any good behavior, but he seems to be doing anything he can think of so there's nothing good to see.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2019, 04:39:24 PM by JoeBPD81 » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2019, 09:21:25 PM »


Just to illustrate his level of disinterest in doing things right, he doesn't flush the toilet, this way we also know he doesn't even use toilet paper after going number 2. He stains his clothes and can go uncomfortable all day, but wiping is too much trouble. If you add that he refused to shower most days... On top of his behavior being revolting, he smells.

We want to reward any good behavior, but he seems to be doing anything he can think of so there's nothing good to see.

Listen...this isn't about the child's interest. 

It's about the parents interest in correcting/training a child.

The child has developed interests/behaviors/patterns based on his parents.

I don't say this to be mean or accusatory, but there is no healthy way forward here unless parents stop complaining about this child and start parenting the child.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2019, 03:28:32 AM »

I don't plan on complaining when I start writing. But I wish you could have an idea about how's our daily life. And how it has been everyday for years. We don't want resentment to be the thing we feel about our son, we don't want fear to guide our parenting. So maybe someone here had a similar experience and could share some insight.

I shared what I did so someone could tell me what I did wrong, and what I should have done instead. I share my situation, so you know I have a partner that can either take what I do or reverse it so it backfires and gets the oposite effect.

We know we've done wrong. We don't know what else to do and at this point, she's talking about giving up and renouncing the custody. We are failing the kid, and we are failing to protect the other kid from him.
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« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2019, 06:40:33 AM »



I shared what I did so someone could tell me what I did wrong, and what I should have done instead. I share my situation, so you know I have a partner that can either take what I do or reverse it so it backfires and gets the oposite effect.

 

You are perhaps in an impossible situation. 

What authority do you really have? 

compare that with what it "appears" you have to those that take a brief glance at your living situation?

What authority do you children believe you have?

What authority does your pwBPD think you have with the children?


So..let's take something straightforward. 

Bathroom stuff.  When you discover the child hasn't flushed what happens?  Do you also confirm hands were washed? 

I want to understand how the child's actions are corrected in this particular instance.

For clarity...am I correct to understand the child often walks around with a dirty backside because he doesn't wipe after a bowel movement?

Best,

FF

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« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2019, 06:41:52 AM »

And how it has been everyday for years.

Why has it been that way everyday for years?

Why not change it?


Best,

FF

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« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2019, 10:04:19 AM »


JoeBPD81

How are things with you today? 

Thinking of you and wishing for the best!

FF
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« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2019, 06:36:46 AM »

I didn't know what to write anymore. I felt a bit like reporting to you and Enabler, and failing (again and again). As a Catholic that always goes to confession with the same sins.

I don't have authority. I get a bit more results as the kids know that I mean what I say. But then they also know mom can say the opposite. But mostly they believe they can do what they want and they are very mad with the universe when they can't.

If I say something, mom doesn't feel the need to follow through. To tell the kids : "You have to do it because Joe said it", as I would with her words. If I disagree I would tell her in private, or if I say something in front of the kids it is as part of the same team. She can say "Joe can say whatever he wants but..." Or "that's nonsense!" or "that's dumb", you know?  She knows this is bad, and regrets it later, but she can't control it in the moment. She says she's a big kid herself.

Excerpt
compare that with what it "appears" you have to those that take a brief glance at your living situation?

I don't understand that sentence.

Children know she has the ultimate last word.

She thinks the kids obey and listen to me way more than to her.

Then none of this is consistent. One day is "you have to listen and obey Joe". Next day is "Joe only says nonsense".

Bathroom. The washing of hands is another battle. They are sick with small infections all the time. They lie about it all the time. Usually we ask again and they go and wash them, same if they didn't flush, and left the light on. They need a reminder for those things 90% of the times. One kid reminds the other (that makes them mad) but they don't remember the same things for themselves.

You are correct about the dirty backside, he even gets a rush and complaints and ask for a cream and to go to the doctor.

This isn't an unintelligent kid that can't do better. Some of his behaviors can seem what a "slow" kid would do. But he scores high in many aspects and he's capable of performing complicates tasks, only the ones he feels motivated about.

We've changed the approach many times, we tried different techniques, board tables, points and rewards, tokens... They may work for a day or even a week, and then the kids can tell it's a technique, and they refuse to cooperate further. So we change, but they stay the same. At least we feel that way.

You know for a PwBPD perception is reality, so when she feels that we tried longer enough and she feels it doesn't work, then she gives up. And we go back 2 steps.

Yeah, I can change all this, by not being a part of it, and maybe some day I just won't be able to take it anymore.

They say education aproaches are doomed to fail when the kid has some disorders, and the apropriate therapy is needed (and even then, success is not guaranteed). Mom has skipped therapy and diagnosis for him, and for herself several times. So the water is not contained anywhere.
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« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2019, 07:07:02 AM »

I get a bit more results as the kids know that I mean what I say.

That's a good thing. At least that means you can instruct when GF is not there.

You have to accept that GF has authority and you are subordinate to her on this... it should/could/would be different but it's not.

I think I wrote in previous posts that the way I deal with things is... offer coaching/instruction... if they go to Mum and Mum invalidates me, it's now her mess to resolve. I stand back and find something else to do and stay quiet/away whatever happens. I have seen that next time or maybe the time after or the time after or the time after Mum, doesn't invalidate me and actually supports me, and then see's positive less stressful outcomes. She has experienced the FULL downside with no support from me and concluded that she didn't like that, she then experiences the positive impacts on validating me and likes that... it becomes automatic.

I think a lot can be achieved by removing TV cables. 
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« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2019, 07:10:35 AM »

I think a lot can be achieved by removing TV cables. 

Today I was thinking just that. They spend a lot of time fighting for the remote, searching for it if we hide it ... And I was thinking about just taking the power cord and keep it for X hours or days depending on the infraction.
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« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2019, 07:26:25 AM »

I have done this and it changed behaviour. It's a no joking thing either... "SS... look into my eyes... do I say what I mean and mean what I say?... The TV will be out of use for the rest of the day for everyone if you do not do ___________. I know my request is reasonable / it's reasonable to expect _____ from a ___ yr old boy."          THE END

The first few times I would actually face down my W on this issue so she can see the positive effects. Downside is you have to find alternatives (to fighting) for them which could be going to the park to play football or something.
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« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2019, 07:29:57 AM »

Take the power cord.  Period.

Perhaps return it in a month or two.

When the kids realize it's a technique and stop complying..why do you change?  Why don't the kids experience the consequence of their choices?    

What would happen if?

If little Johnny wipes his backside and washes his hands for 2 months, then we will reintroduce a privilege.

Hint:  A big part of parenting is applying wisdom and the knowledge that "I can outlast you."  It appears in your family the kids have flipped that.

Back to power cord.  Your pwBPD may buy another one.  When she leaves..ditch that one too.  She may decide to live in another location where the power cord doesn't disappear...that's her choice (I doubt she would do this..honestly)

A good question:  Are kids better off paying attention to their parents or the TV?  

Best,

FF

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« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2019, 07:36:56 AM »

A good question:  Are kids better off paying attention to their parents or the TV?  

Might want to rephrase that...     

Are kids better off paying attention to their parents Joe or the TV?
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« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2019, 02:19:50 PM »



https://youtu.be/7VwuQgnTqh0

Do you see similarities?

Ask yourself...is bad behavior being rewarded?

Flip it around, what are the consequences of bad behavior?

 

Best,

FF
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« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2019, 04:36:03 PM »

She might listen to Dr. Phil. You don't know how many times I've said "this is rewarding bad behavior".

I've said to her and him, "when you can behave like a human being when we say NO, to the phone, then we'll say yes more often" "if it was for me, you wouldn't see the phone in a year, and then, only if you are mature enough to accept when we say this is not the time to play".

I've told her "we wouldn't give him vodka if he was alcoholic, we wouldn't give him coke... There is never a good reason to give him back the phone without a big change in his behavior first.
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