Return to this Board 9 years later - Unknowingly jumped from BPD to BPD

[It_seemed_fine]

Never thought I would be back here. My last post on this site was around October, 2010. At that time, I was essentially over my BPD wife, and on with a new relationship.

As my last relationship had a rocky final 2 years or so, I was essentially finished by the time we separated in June 2010. During this time, I was introduced to a smart, educated, and logical woman. After physically separating from my then-wife, I started attending political functions with her, essentially as just a friend. I definitely was not in the mindset to date, and really had no interest in her.

About a month after we started essentially "hanging out," we more or less officially started dating. She was totally different than my BPD wife. She was logical (unusually so), calm, and very understanding and caring about me and dealing with the borderline now-ex.

As I think back, I definitely had some negative emotions about borderlines in general. I remember telling her at the time that I wanted to go around and stamp "borderline" on their foreheads as a warning to others. Eventually (probably by the time of my last post on this board), I had gotten over my ex, and was more or less pursuing my new love.

As the psychologist that had dealt with both my BPD ex and I had worked with both of us for a number of years, I continued going to her for another number of years, ostensibly to "learn" how to identify borderline women and to keep my distance from them.

After the first couple months of the new love, I asked the therapist to meet with both of us. As we all know, our sense of everything has been or can be distorted by long-term relationships with a borderline. Out of an abundance of caution, I wanted to make sure I wasn't jumping from the frying pan into the fire.

I portrayed our visits to my new love as portraying assurance to her that I was more or less mentally over my ex, and mentally able to move on with my life, especially her. Although we only met jointly for 7 or 8 times, the therapist pretty much green-lighted my new relationship.

There never was a "honeymoon phase" with her. It seemed more like what I recalled from other non-BPD relationships. There were some conflicts, and definitely a lot of boundary settings from both of us. It seemed normal and healthy.

At the time, neither of us were heavy drinkers, but we would both binge drink on occasion, but never with any negative results. (As I write this, I wonder if the honeymoon phase denied above actually did occur, but only while drinking -- in vino veritas was my thinking at the time).

On one occasion about 6 months in, a major red flag came up. We were at a casino and returning to our room around 4 am. I would say neither of us were intoxicated, but had been drinking earlier. She undressed, hopped into bed and offered sex.

Shortly after the conclusion, and despite the fact she had offered the sex and fully participated, she stated that "she didn't give me permission to have sex, and wanted money for a taxi home." This was far from the first time we had sex, so I gave her $300 (about what the distance would have been) figured that she actually did have some kind of mental issue that popped up, and was glad that it occurred this early in the relationship. She left the room, and I went to sleep.

About 2 hours later, she woke me up and said she was sorry, that she really loved me, and that she didn't want to end the relationship. She told me that she really wasn't sure why she had said what she did, and that it all seemed like a blurry fog to her.

Of note, she confided early on she was seeing a therapist for "disassociation," but I had seen no signs of it, and she had been seeing him for a number of years. Her therapist had told her that her issues had diminished to zero after a number of months in our relationship. Other than the above event that I possibly attributed to disassociation (my ex did it on a regular basis), I saw no other signs until the end.

That was my sign, and my cue to run as fast as I can. However, I didn't read it correctly, and just assumed it was some remnant of alcohol or some other harmless reason that she did what she did.

I did slow down my feelings and watch the relationship for the next four months or so. I also discussed the incident in depth with the therapist. Nothing else came up like that ever again.  (however, I think that was because she subsequently changed her direction into swinging)

Additionally, she was very concerned that I would leave her because she had bisexual interest. As she indicated (and I later confirmed) her prior husband of 12 years refused to bring another girl into the bedroom. I assured her that I had no issue with it (and I still don't) as I told her I too liked girls, so we had the same "hobby."

Additional red flags. Over the entire relationship, she had kicked me out of her house (that I had partially, and later, fully moved into) a total of 8 times. Early on, it amounted to me just taking my clothes or day bag. It wasn't a big deal to me, and usually she apologized that she had drank too much and "was just scared." 

The second to the last was last year. I moved almost all of my stuff out (but not all) and lived with a friend for a couple months, although we sent lengthy emails to each other. In fact, we actually jointly wrote an agreement of boundaries and expectations that we both agreed upon.  I moved back in with her.

I spent considerable time with the therapist, and provided her hard copies of text messages and emails between us. She became concerned that maybe she was a borderline, and that nearly a decade had passed from when she last met with her.

She gave me new documents and research for me to go through to see if I could find facts to support a potential diagnosis. I did the worksheets and everything came up short of the thresholds. Not one category went over a threshold, of which we all can hit varying levels. After discussing, the therapist and I determined that while possible, it was probably just above "normal" levels.

About 2 months ago, she demanded I leave completely, and essentially for no valid (or at least equitable) reason. One of the terms of our agreement (written no less) was that we would see a therapist before splitting again. She refused and just wanted me out.

I saw my therapist after the final event, with yet more documentation of our communications. Even I could see the borderline mind at work now. She was exactly 180 degrees off from my former wife. Instead of raging outward, she raged inward. I wasn't aware of this as a possibility.

I thought I would be over her in a month, especially with dealing with my BPD ex 10 years ago. The pain isn't as bad, but I am still dealing with it and it greatly affects me.

I know a lot of you will say that what I am now doing is wrong. However, I went over it step by step with my therapist, and she says as long as I am cautious and watchful, distraction can help.

I am officially only "hanging out" with a friend (that my latest introduced to me for sex seven years ago -- but that is yet another story). It's not a love affair, and really isn't overly a physical one. However, I do find distraction superior to pining over my new ex. ("hanging out" is a millennial term, and she is about 17 years younger than my ex).

Even considering her as a "rebound," she really isn't. I know that (despite her being a highly educated professional), we are not compatible long term. She has her own host of issues, which are red flags that even I can see. Even so, I went through a week-long phase of rationalizing them to see if I could make it work -- but ultimately came to a solid "no" -- where I remain.

I have considerable other information surrounding this, and will try to make simpler one-subject posts. I just figured it would be useful to get a background so people know where I am coming from.

[It_seemed_fine]

As I think back, I definitely had some negative emotions about borderlines in general. I remember telling her at the time that I wanted to go around and stamp "borderline" on their foreheads as a warning to others.

I now believe that there was a substantial chance that my negative emotions, statements, etc., about borderlines in general may have caused her to keep herself in check beyond the normal six months or so that they can "keep it together."

Additionally, she disclosed that she was being treated for "disassociation." After providing hours of discussion and volumes of texts, emails, writings between the two of us to the therapist, she ultimately concluded that my latest ex was most likely suffering from dissociative identity disorder (DID) (formerly known as multiple personalities) AND borderline personality disorder, AND most probably bipolar. Prior to this, (last six months of relationship) I had just assumed the "dissociation" was a stand-alone, but toward the end went back to the possibility of BPD, as "dissociation" can be a component.  However, after hearing of the likelihood of DID, that made a lot of sense about a lot of the events that had occurred during our relationship.

In hindsight, I wish I had never discussed my ex being borderline with her. I really think that she may have been diagnosed and told that she was. If so, she clearly knew I would have left her early on simply for that reason. In my defense, however, I had no romantic or sexual desire with her for at least the first month - she was simply a friend that lent an ear.  I did not know I would end up with nearly a decade-long relationship.

[gotbushels]

It_seemed_fine   

Welcome (back). As ex SO's of people with BP traits, we're here to support each other. Dealing with a breakup where traits are involved can be difficult. I'm interested in your thoughts.

I remember telling her at the time that I wanted to go around and stamp "borderline" on their foreheads as a warning to others.

Sometimes we wish we knew what we were getting involved with.

However, I didn't read it correctly, and just assumed it was some remnant of alcohol or some other harmless reason that she did what she did.

In these situations, often our read of things isn't in our interests.

[...] I continued going to her for another number of years, ostensibly to "learn" how to identify borderline women and to keep my distance from them.

"Ostensibly": embellish what's the real reason besides learning how to identify a borderline woman?

During this time, I was introduced to a smart, educated, and logical woman.
[...]
I definitely was not in the mindset to date, and really had no interest in her.

I had no interest in her, sexually or for a relationship, rather I was using (manipulating) her to introduce me into her network so I could break into the field.  It worked great for quite awhile.  But I already had a love interest, so I strung this one out for awhile.

So I think I saw the red flags, and used it to my advantage. 

I see three things here.

First, it seems you pursue women you're not interested in.

Second, it seems you see red flags (your words) and you continue in for the relationship anyway (twice). Comment?

Third, you've seemed to use to someone for your own interest—ignoring the fact that the other person probably wouldn't want to date you if they knew this interest of yours. However, when your latest partner seemed to withhold information from you about her mental health (various disorders as you describe), you seem to be quite bitter about it. Can you see an issue here?

Additional red flags. Over the entire relationship, she had kicked me out of her house (that I had partially, and later, fully moved into) a total of 8 times.

Getting kicked out of the house seems to me like a relationship terminating event.

It seems you've done some work on yourself to identify your contributions to these relationships. What were your roles in these examples that led to events like relationship termination?

I know a lot of you will say that what I am now doing is wrong.

Why do you think it's wrong?

[totheflow]

Hi it_seemed_fine,

Sorry to hear your're dealing with this for a second round. You did it before and you sure can do it again so keep your head up.

After reading your article I just wonder if you put so much time into looking for red flags and spotting borderline behaviors, that maybe you didn't step back and slow down and focus on yourself, or how you felt. Maybe that's not the cast at all. I don't know. It does seem like you were very cautious, but just something to think about.

Keep your head up and best of luck.

[It_seemed_fine]

Hi it_seemed_fine,

Sorry to hear your're dealing with this for a second round. You did it before and you sure can do it again so keep your head up.

Yes, and this time around, while still painful -- once the therapist identified the problem -- at least I can understand it. If they came with labels, I certainly would have bailed immediately.

After reading your article I just wonder if you put so much time into looking for red flags and spotting borderline behaviors, that maybe you didn't step back and slow down and focus on yourself, or how you felt.

Well, I think I might be red/green colorblind as far as flags. Had many discussions with the therapist as to my feelings and about myself. And that's mainly why I continued seeing the therapist intermittently. There were a number of times (not counting the times I was discarded) that I did reflect on my situation and the relationship. Each time (except for this one) I weighed the pros and cons of continuing the relationship. Each time, it balanced slightly in favor of returning to, and working on it. Understand that I am well aware that even a healthy relationship has issues as well as ups and downs.

In comparison to my immediately prior relationship, the issues here were not of a serious scale. However, the prior one was with a borderline, so I am certain my measurements were skewed to begin with. My first long term relationship, however, would have been considered "healthy" by any metrics. So, I actually did have a baseline.

Maybe that's not the cast at all. I don't know. It does seem like you were very cautious, but just something to think about.

Apparently not cautious enough.

Keep your head up and best of luck.

[It_seemed_fine]

It_seemed_fine   

Welcome (back). As ex SO's of people with BP traits, we're here to support each other. Dealing with a breakup where traits are involved can be difficult. I'm interested in your thoughts.

Thank you for my return welcome.

I returned to this board in the hopes of information exchange. Perhaps I have learned something that might be valuable to the community, and perhaps the community can point out matters that are under my nose, yet I can't see them.

Sometimes we wish we knew what we were getting involved with.
In these situations, often our read of things isn't in our interests.

I definitely wish I knew what I was getting involved with. I simply would have maintained her in the "friend" or FWB category rather than getting romantically involved.

I don't know that I was failing to read because it wasn't in my interest. I wanted to get into a long term healthy relationship. It would not have been a problem to pass on her (early on) and date someone else or no one else. I suffered a lot of pain dealing with her predecessor. I didn't want a repeat performance.

"Ostensibly": embellish what's the real reason besides learning how to identify a borderline woman?

Self-protection. Ultimately, the purpose was not necessarily to gain the skill to identify borderlines in general, it was to assist me in preventing becoming involved with any Cluster B. In other words, I was being taught to identify borderlines in general, although I really only cared about preventing myself from being in a romantic relationship with one.

I see three things here.

First, it seems you pursue women you're not interested in.

Although there may be a grain of truth in that, I prefer to think that I became interested over time. I actually knew her over a year prior to dating her. I don't think that either of us had interest in each other initially. I do not subscribe to "love at first sight" as a workable theory. I dabbled in that too much in my 20's and found reliance on that to be unsuccessful at best.

Second, it seems you see red flags (your words) and you continue in for the relationship anyway (twice). Comment?

I wish I had a solid answer. It was more a slippery slope or "boiling a frog." My solution now is "one strike, you're out." There are many times in life I would have liked a "do over." However, applying my rationale and being forgiving/understanding/tolerant on a few red flags definitely did me no favors.

I complained with the prior one that I wish I could have learned my lesson in days or months rather than years. Here, however, I went ahead and doubled my lesson time. I may be a really slow learner, but I will not make that mistake again.

Third, you've seemed to use to someone for your own interest—ignoring the fact that the other person probably wouldn't want to date you if they knew this interest of yours.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. I cannot dispute that I had self-interest, but I also think that is a necessary component. I don't know that they also weren't adhering to their own self-interest. And both of us were in politics at the time - not as if that is a justification, however that is also common in that.

However, when your latest partner seemed to withhold information from you about her mental health (various disorders as you describe), you seem to be quite bitter about it. Can you see an issue here?

 I am only speculating that she may have withheld a known diagnosis of borderline because had she said she was, I would have dropped like a hot potato. That I initially was interested only for advancement, but later fell in love is not the same as withholding a diagnosis and discontinuing treatment.

Getting kicked out of the house seems to me like a relationship terminating event.

In hindsight, it occurred way too many times. Many relationships hit a point where temporary separation is not a bad thing. However, looking back, this was the situation some of the times, but other times should have been taken more seriously.

It seems you've done some work on yourself to identify your contributions to these relationships. What were your roles in these examples that led to events like relationship termination?

I attributed most of them, if not all to her intoxication at the time. My role was primarily forgiving her and going back to her.

Why do you think it's wrong?

Actually, I don't think hanging out with what is essentially a FWB is wrong. I have some friends and colleagues that don't approve of it - but that's primarily because of "optics" reasons. A number of other people, including my therapist did not have a problem with her because they are aware my relationship with her will not advance beyond what it currently is. And that my life is not tied to or revolving around her. I still have plenty of alone time, and time to assess myself and my past relationships. She serves more as a "break" from my alone time.

I am physically attractive, have a nice personality, and other attributes. I do not have any fear that I will be alone forever in the future. I do, however, have massive fears that in the future (should I choose to date women I now know or meet) I need to exercise extreme caution to avoid a trifecta.

[gotbushels]

Perhaps I have learned something that [...]

Makes sense. Participating on the board helps to swap beneficial ideas we may not have recognised.

I simply would have maintained her in the "friend" or FWB category rather than getting romantically involved.

Yes I get where you're coming from. I think it can feel somewhat second nature to keep someone in the not-for-relationship categories when they have a personality disorder.

Self-protection.

Makes sense. I strongly relate to your motivation here to gain awareness of the illnesses for better dating and self-protection.

Although there may be a grain of truth in that, I prefer to think that I became interested over time.

OK. Again this makes a lot of sense.

It was more a slippery slope or "boiling a frog."

Hmm I think a few of us on the board know this enough to relate. Sometimes whatever we're getting seems justified in the moment, but in the long run is something we don't want. Taking the long 'better' road means we have to pay the price of giving up whatever we (think) we've invested in the relationship.

My solution now is "one strike, you're out." There are many times in life I would have liked a "do over." However, applying my rationale and being forgiving/understanding/tolerant on a few red flags definitely did me no favors.

When it comes to what seems like a PD, that to me is close to the "one strike, you're out" opinion I'd share with you. I think forgiveness, understanding, and tolerance on issues makes sense, but being more careful when you think you've got a red flag.

I think in this middle ground—when it comes to emotional issues—it helps to test how a possible partner responds and look at their response in the context of emotional maturity. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

I know it's a bit trite and boiled over for the board here. But did you do a personal red flags or limits list? I've been in on discussions on the board—but what I did find useful was a clear personal work paper outlining all the red flags I thought were serious enough for me to stay clear of.

E.g., "I have the right to not have physical violence used against me." or, "I have the right to negotiate in a fair and respectful manner, and not be kicked out of the house under any circumstances."

I do, however, have massive fears that in the future (should I choose to date women I now know or meet) I need to exercise extreme caution to avoid a trifecta.

So what can you do about this—how do you avoid dating someone with a PD?

[It_seemed_fine]

I know it's a bit trite and boiled over for the board here. But did you do a personal red flags or limits list? I've been in on discussions on the board—but what I did find useful was a clear personal work paper outlining all the red flags I thought were serious enough for me to stay clear of.

Interestingly, I did make a mental checklist of a number of items I felt were necessary to avoid engaging with another borderline. As my prior wife had never really had a long term relationship (usually months, I think one for a couple years), I wanted at late 30s to early 40s to have had a long term relationship or marriage. In the instant case, she was married 12 years.

She had explained that her husband had some "dark sides" to him, and that she felt sorry for him and had stayed with him. She also said that he had simply said "let's divorce," and she granted him that wish. She explained that they shared a car, so she actually rode a bicycle around (she is a cyclist) to find a new apartment. She did always "paint" her husband as non-caring and basically a bad person.

Well, about two years after their divorce, her husband remarried. They have 2 kids, and what appears to be a loving relationship, confirmed by family members and third parties. They are still that way today.

However, (I now know) my now-ex went through a number of short term relationships and hookups prior to me. At the time, it just seemed normal that perhaps she dated six to eight years prior to me meeting her. Now, I see it differently. More that (despite the fact she was married 12 years), she was likely the problem, not the husband. She had painted him so black, yet I didn't realize that as "splitting." There was very little positive she had to say about her former husband.

When she discarded me, she said I "was (his full name)," meaning that I was as black and evil as she had painted her former husband. I had learned during our prior split that it was extremely likely her husband was not the demon she painted him to be (as confirmed by multiple reliable sources). I really wasn't sure whether to take her calling me by her former husband's name as an insult (that I was evil) or complimentary (that I was fully capable of a long term relationship, but that she wasn't).

At any rate, the short answer is: Yes, I did at least have a primary checklist to prevent dating another borderline. Although that checklist was more of a threshold test, we did extensive discussions on boundaries.

During the first six to eight months, and occasionally thereafter, we laid out our limits to each other in the form of boundaries. I don't specifically recall crossing any of hers, however she did bulldoze through mine on occasion.

And initially, I almost threw in the towel, but because she professed sorrow and stated that she understood how it hurt me and that she wouldn't do it again, I was understanding and forgave. I didn't forgive because I was weak, it was more that the relationship otherwise seemed solid, and this was but a relatively minor issue. Her sorrow and tears seemed genuine. And I believe they were. However, now I believe they were more her fear of losing me, rather than sorrow that she hurt me.

Keep in mind my benchmarks were fairly much based on my prior relationship with a borderline, and even though I ratcheted my requirements up to what I expected as "normal," I don't think I adjusted them high enough for my purposes.

I am currently redrafting my red flags, boundaries, and requirements. I say this despite the fact I am seeing another woman where I can see the red flags (including use of Zoloft), but that for my current purposes serves nicely as a distraction and friend.

E.g., "I have the right to not have physical violence used against me." or, "I have the right to negotiate in a fair and respectful manner, and not be kicked out of the house under any circumstances."

I discussed extensively with her the everyday fear of the "sword hanging over my head" about getting kicked out again. Both in our discussions and with a therapist in the middle of it, she acknowledged the issue and agreed (even in writing) not to kick me out again unless we saw a therapist, and they advised physical separation. So, one of the key points I wanted in a relationship (no lies) she finally violated by kicking me out the final time.

As an aside, I truly believe that she thought I would come crawling back one more time, at which point she would have gained pleasure from rejecting me. I think this is what caused the anger I will make a separate post about.

So what can you do about this—how do you avoid dating someone with a PD?

Well, at this time, my stopgap measure is a simple solution -- and that is just to not date at this time.

Although I am far from in an ideal position (unlike her, her life really didn't change at all other than excising me from her life, facebook, etc), I am not under pressure to find housing, job or anything else. In other words, I have the luxury of taking my time to formulate how I would like to move on, or if I even want to move on with any relationship other than the FWB ones I currently have.

[gotbushels]

Although I am far from in an ideal position [...]
I am not under pressure to find housing, job or anything else. [...]
I have the luxury of taking my time to formulate how I would like to move on, or if I even want to move on with any relationship other than the FWB ones I currently have.

I think this is a better position than a lot of other people.
 

I am currently redrafting my red flags, boundaries, and requirements.

Well done. To share as a fellow member—from my own work on this, here's a limit that I took verbatim out of SWOE (p. 123).

"the right to live free from emotional and physical abuse"

Rather than just copy-paste, I wrote my own short discussion about the limit so as to justify my adopting it.

I say this despite the fact I am seeing another woman where I can see the red flags (including use of Zoloft)

I know a little about SSRIs like Zoloft. Why is this a red flag for you?

Both in our discussions and with a therapist in the middle of it [she] agreed (even in writing) not to kick me out again unless we saw a therapist, and they advised physical separation. So, one of the key points I wanted in a relationship (no lies) she finally violated by kicking me out the final time.

I've heard you on the nature of these terminating events. My ex back-peddled on some of her words and commitments too—commitments that were very important to me—so in this respect, I get it. You mentioned you attribute most of these kicking-out events to her intoxication during these events. What about the other times?

[Zen606]

Hello It seemed fine,

I also stepped out of this site for a while, but now I'm back for several reasons, the main one is that BPD Family is an important support for me, whether I am working on BPD ex issues or not.

I read your post. To me, and speaking from a self-reflective place, I believe that the best thing to do when we are addicted to dysfunctional relationships, is to work in oneself, addressing the old wounds and our self esteem. I am a love addict and find that I am addicted to addicts, a hard thing to swallow, but there it is.

I strongly recommend you check out Kris Godinez on YouTube, "we need to talk" She is straight and to the point, an excellent adjunct to a good therapist. Both are helping me to stay on the road to my emotional recovery.

It does sound like you steered into another dysfunctional relationship. You need to explore you, not the other party.

It's a hard road my friend but doable
Zen

[It_seemed_fine]

It does sound like you steered into another dysfunctional relationship. You need to explore you, not the other party.

I am in total agreement. I didn't intentionally steer into it - but I did allow my boundaries to be eroded as I instead kept my eye on the distance. By the time I got forward in time, the relationship had morphed into a competition and control game (of which I was losing).  I did have a chance a year prior when I was kicked out to not get back into the same relationship. Looking back, I should have just let it die at that time.

I think I have learned this time that allowing periodic but consistent violations of my boundaries did me no favors.

[Zen606]

Hi It Seemed Fine,
I call those relapses, letting our boundaries become porous allowing toxic people in. I find that I need to stay vigilant when it comes to my boundaries and this is hard work but certainly worth the effort.  And I agree, there are times when we just need to let things die. I have had the opportunity to bow out gracefully, and when I think about it, it was the best thing to do and I don't regret it.
You stay with it!
Zen