Good to hear from you -split from 'Ghosting'

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

This thread was split off from the original thread since this discussion has gone far afield from the original topic of Ghosting

@Cromwell quotes to follow:

Good to hear from you WickerMan, especially today, it has been difficult.

I am sorry you are having a hard time.  Do you think it is an extinction burst from your former relationship or is there something else new?

Are you open to the possibility it [her utter conviction.  When she first professed her love] came across this way because it could have been said by her in a state of psychosis?

Whereas, and as much as I enjoy, the notion one would have to be psychotic to fall in love with me -- this did not seem to be the case.  From my experience and my reading I believe someone suffering from BPD feels love more deeply than a neuro-typical person.  Limerence hits us hard, but I believe it knocks someone with hyper-sensitivity for a loop.  I believe they see their new love as salvation -an end to pain.  An answer to all of life's ills.  Then as the reality of the new love begins to seep through the hormone fueled and maniac ether of new love their pain returns and the honeymoon is over... soft fade to pain induced rage, lies, cheating and other mayhem.

No -I believe when she fell in love with me everything she said was true for her in that moment.  No one could fake the raw emotion she exhibited.  She loved with every fiber of her being.

...when you say the depression is lifting, for me I feel that I have readjusted back, there is a lack of the delerium, there has been a regression to the mean (a medical term). But my mean has always been that of mildly depressed... ...I ask how you feel about this if you self evaluate your progress.

To be precise 'mean' is a statistical term...  or 'sadistics' as we called it in school.  Homeostasis demands a return to the mean state -and only through heavy lifting in therapy or other intervention can we alter our baseline.  I have returned more or less to baseline.  Actually, my normal state had always been quite positive.  I had never known depression and had always a cautiously optimistic view of the world -I worked hard and was generally rewarded for my efforts both vocationally and otherwise.  My marriage had been problematic, but I was so happy with work and every other part of my life my marriage being a comfortable economic partnership seemed acceptable.  As I mentioned long ago, it seems my subconscious had other ideas about this level of sublimation.

Now my marriage seems to be on the right course.  We are happier now than we ever have been.  My wife has become more aware of how her OC(PD) effects us.  To be honest, my biggest complaint, at this point, is my work is very slow of late.  The Chinese film market is in what they are calling a 'Winter'... in Western terms it is in 'Free fall'...

Do you miss the delerium?

Interesting you took my meaning to mean 'happy'... I meant it more like:

Delirious: an acutely disturbed state of mind resulting from illness or intoxication and characterized by restlessness, illusions, and incoherence of thought and speech.

The drug analogy used becomes more profound the more I have researched it...

Actually this notion became clear to me straight away.  I believe I compared her to cigarettes in my 2nd or 3rd post -this then evolved (devolved) into describing her as a Schedule 1 drug.

...they repeat themselves and do not read this as a complaint it is not - it is an observation.

Yes -I feel the repetitive nature of my posts.  I have only a limited data set of experience with my ex.  Beyond what I have read and learned from my reading my knowledge base is static.  

...you removed yourself physically from a stimulus that made you delerious and physiologically there is chemistry involved in this. Add in the emotional attachment/love for her asides from say being addicted to a drug - it is a double whammy.

The delirium, or near madness, of new love or limerence is a drug like high.  We were not together long enough for it to be seen in any other light.  We loved each other deeply (well... for her this was intermittent), but we didn't have the time for it to be 'real' love.  I do not believe she has the hammer and tongs to create the foundation for real love at this point in her life.  It takes a strong sense of self to say 'I' - the beginning of 'I love you'.  

It can be hard for me to discern the difference, do I crave her, or do I crave the feeling.

@Sadly wrote 'I learnt that I was mourning something I didn’t ever really have...'

I miss, as I have always said, the idea of her.  If she were able to sustain her love for herself and me then meeting here would have been the golden ticket it seemed to have been.  I found myself spending a year unhappy because I bought a lottery ticket with the wrong numbers.  I thought it was a winner, but it was not.

It is part of the reason I avoid therapy

I am over 18 months in and we are just now talking about reducing my sessions.  I feel with the right therapist if can be beneficial -but finding the right match is difficult.  I think this guy is my 4th try -and thankfully he worked out great.  He also treats several people suffering from BPD -so he gets it.

...what the goal is for you WM - because if it is stabilised mood, the price to pay for this is not that dopamine hit each time. If this regression to the mean involves going back to a place where (i think you werent exactly happy back then either?)... ...I just cant escape a feeling you are trapped...

This is a valid and important question.  I really wasn't looking for the limerence 'high' to continue while I was with Dream Come True -I found her to be incredibly charismatic and deeply interesting - the benefit to being with someone holding on to reality by their finger nails.  She was creative on a level I have rarely seen -because she simply experiences reality differently.  I was looking forward to the adventure to be certain.  I adored her family and the idea of a 3 generation household was appealing.  The fly in the ointment was she suffers from a sever mental illness which precludes any sort of a lasting relationship.  

Coming back home was difficult to be sure.  I am an easy sell in China vocationally, here in Hollywood it is tougher.  Being someone who speaks enough Chinese and was schooled here makes me a rare commodity.  Here I am just another 3rd generation film maker...  Dime a dozen...  It was hard trading bullet trains for a commute on the 405 freeway...  Ma La Xiang Guo for hamburgers...  

So... I found myself having to silently grieve the lost of the fantasy that was Dream Come True, attempt to sift through the ashes looking for an ember to reconcile a marriage gone cold -and then to had to disclose and recover from my betrayal --this was all heavy lifting and a lot to absorb.  I feel I was quite due for a bit of depression.  I had to try to figure out if I was able to return to my marriage -I can only change myself and I cannot count on my wife changing.  OC(PD) is perhaps the most benign of the personality disorders -I think if I had to 'pick one' it would be OC(PD).  Where as B(PD) I would not wish on my worst enemy.  

I had to keep a weather eye on why I was returning.  There are certainly benefits to my marriage.  Financial security for one.  Early in my career I saved enough to ensure both our retirement if we stay together.  I paid for the houses.  This is the one thing my wife and I have always been in lockstep -we are 'unparalleled financial partners' (from our accountant).  At 53 I did feel I had to consider financial security.  It cannot be the sole factor.  What gave me hope for returning was some of the progress my wife made while i was gone.  OC(PD) is ego-synodic (medial term) ...  Thus it is not easy for someone with OC(PD) to see where they might be hurtful.  There is a quote I read some someone else with it "I told you I love you three years ago -if something changes I will let you know".  Little warmth, no validation.  Excellence is presumed anything less is met with disgust... super...  I am hopeful for our future.  She compliments me once in a while now -it feels a bit stilted, as it is not her nature, but I appreciate it.  She has a few times told me 'I am not mad at you I am mad at me'.  We are both working on it...  She told me 'You are my perfect man'. when she was asking for reconciliation.  OC(PD) is strange to live with -how could you believe this and never have a kind word?  There seems to be a constant level of noise compelling her toward perfection which precludes much time to leisure -she is unnecessarily hard on herself.

...new fantasies as much emotionally rooted as sexually... ... how often do you hear members here say "i think its the physical closeness I miss".

You mentioned porn...  Dream Come True ruined porn for me.  Now even with I think about it I can't help but wonder how many of the 'actors' suffer from BPD.

To be blunt and brutally honest she was simply not the bee's knees sexually.  She over sexualized things and liked the idea and graphic of sex, but she had very little knowledge.  Sort of 'pretty girl' sex if you will -in other words her simply participating was to have been enough.  Well... In this relationship it was her saying 'it was the best ever'. Chalk one up for the neuro-typical this time...   Why?  Well...  a large percentage of Chinese men do not care about foreplay^*.  When the bar is lying on the ground as a tripping hazard I am Don Juan...  I ended up teaching her quite a bit about female biology -there is no health ed in China.  I.e. the importance of calcium.  She is an 44kg ectomorph (medial term)   Antibiotics must not be taken when one has a virus...  There is always a risk of pregnancy if a condom is not used (there is a bunch of mythology which gets girls in trouble there).

"Rape is considered 'The man being strong' and is not really condemned"
"Chinese men, for the most part, don't do much foreplay..."

Chinese Girl Confessions: Sex and Love, Asian Style
                                                              --Angelina Zhang

I am empathetic and much of the pleasure I derive from sex has to do with my partner's pleasure... This is not usual in China -woman can be seen by men as things.  I am speaking in broad terms, of course -there are 1.3 billion Chinese -but I have heard this story over and over.  

So what do I miss?  I miss the hours upon hours we would talk.  I do miss her beauty -she look like an anime character with colorful hair and tattoos -as a photographer she was certainly graphically appealing.  Most of all I miss the incredible sense of family -grandparents, little step brother and our circle of friends -all artists and for some reason all lesbians -I was the only guy in the apartment, but we all got on well.  I miss the calls every evening to her grandparents where we would spend 20 minutes laughing like idiots.  I miss the dream of what might have been.  However, knowing what I know now I am thankful I opted out .

Mod Note:  OP is responding to this response: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=337964.msg13063746#msg13063746 in the thread titled Ghosting found here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=337964.0

[Wicker Man]

This thread was split off from the original thread since this discussion has gone far afield from the original topic of Ghosting

@Cromwell quotes to follow:

Good to hear from you WickerMan, especially today, it has been difficult.

I am sorry you are having a hard time.  Do you think it is an extinction burst from your former relationship or is there something else new?

Are you open to the possibility it [her utter conviction.  When she first professed her love] came across this way because it could have been said by her in a state of psychosis?

Whereas, and as much as I enjoy, the notion one would have to be psychotic to fall in love with me -- this did not seem to be the case.  From my experience and my reading I believe someone suffering from BPD feels love more deeply than a neuro-typical person.  Limerence hits us hard, but I believe it knocks someone with hyper-sensitivity for a loop.  I believe they see their new love as salvation -an end to pain.  An answer to all of life's ills.  Then as the reality of the new love begins to seep through the hormone fueled and maniac ether of new love their pain returns and the honeymoon is over... soft fade to pain induced rage, lies, cheating and other mayhem.

No -I believe when she fell in love with me everything she said was true for her in that moment.  No one could fake the raw emotion she exhibited.  She loved with every fiber of her being.

...when you say the depression is lifting, for me I feel that I have readjusted back, there is a lack of the delerium, there has been a regression to the mean (a medical term). But my mean has always been that of mildly depressed... ...I ask how you feel about this if you self evaluate your progress.

To be precise 'mean' is a statistical term...  or 'sadistics' as we called it in school.  Homeostasis demands a return to the mean state -and only through heavy lifting in therapy or other intervention can we alter our baseline.  I have returned more or less to baseline.  Actually, my normal state had always been quite positive.  I had never known depression and had always a cautiously optimistic view of the world -I worked hard and was generally rewarded for my efforts both vocationally and otherwise.  My marriage had been problematic, but I was so happy with work and every other part of my life my marriage being a comfortable economic partnership seemed acceptable.  As I mentioned long ago, it seems my subconscious had other ideas about this level of sublimation.

Now my marriage seems to be on the right course.  We are happier now than we ever have been.  My wife has become more aware of how her OC(PD) effects us.  To be honest, my biggest complaint, at this point, is my work is very slow of late.  The Chinese film market is in what they are calling a 'Winter'... in Western terms it is in 'Free fall'...

Do you miss the delerium?

Interesting you took my meaning to mean 'happy'... I meant it more like:

Delirious: an acutely disturbed state of mind resulting from illness or intoxication and characterized by restlessness, illusions, and incoherence of thought and speech.

The drug analogy used becomes more profound the more I have researched it...

Actually this notion became clear to me straight away.  I believe I compared her to cigarettes in my 2nd or 3rd post -this then evolved (devolved) into describing her as a Schedule 1 drug.

...they repeat themselves and do not read this as a complaint it is not - it is an observation.

Yes -I feel the repetitive nature of my posts.  I have only a limited data set of experience with my ex.  Beyond what I have read and learned from my reading my knowledge base is static.  

...you removed yourself physically from a stimulus that made you delerious and physiologically there is chemistry involved in this. Add in the emotional attachment/love for her asides from say being addicted to a drug - it is a double whammy.

The delirium, or near madness, of new love or limerence is a drug like high.  We were not together long enough for it to be seen in any other light.  We loved each other deeply (well... for her this was intermittent), but we didn't have the time for it to be 'real' love.  I do not believe she has the hammer and tongs to create the foundation for real love at this point in her life.  It takes a strong sense of self to say 'I' - the beginning of 'I love you'.  

It can be hard for me to discern the difference, do I crave her, or do I crave the feeling.

@Sadly wrote 'I learnt that I was mourning something I didn’t ever really have...'

I miss, as I have always said, the idea of her.  If she were able to sustain her love for herself and me then meeting here would have been the golden ticket it seemed to have been.  I found myself spending a year unhappy because I bought a lottery ticket with the wrong numbers.  I thought it was a winner, but it was not.

It is part of the reason I avoid therapy

I am over 18 months in and we are just now talking about reducing my sessions.  I feel with the right therapist if can be beneficial -but finding the right match is difficult.  I think this guy is my 4th try -and thankfully he worked out great.  He also treats several people suffering from BPD -so he gets it.

...what the goal is for you WM - because if it is stabilised mood, the price to pay for this is not that dopamine hit each time. If this regression to the mean involves going back to a place where (i think you werent exactly happy back then either?)... ...I just cant escape a feeling you are trapped...

This is a valid and important question.  I really wasn't looking for the limerence 'high' to continue while I was with Dream Come True -I found her to be incredibly charismatic and deeply interesting - the benefit to being with someone holding on to reality by their finger nails.  She was creative on a level I have rarely seen -because she simply experiences reality differently.  I was looking forward to the adventure to be certain.  I adored her family and the idea of a 3 generation household was appealing.  The fly in the ointment was she suffers from a sever mental illness which precludes any sort of a lasting relationship.  

Coming back home was difficult to be sure.  I am an easy sell in China vocationally, here in Hollywood it is tougher.  Being someone who speaks enough Chinese and was schooled here makes me a rare commodity.  Here I am just another 3rd generation film maker...  Dime a dozen...  It was hard trading bullet trains for a commute on the 405 freeway...  Ma La Xiang Guo for hamburgers...  

So... I found myself having to silently grieve the lost of the fantasy that was Dream Come True, attempt to sift through the ashes looking for an ember to reconcile a marriage gone cold -and then to had to disclose and recover from my betrayal --this was all heavy lifting and a lot to absorb.  I feel I was quite due for a bit of depression.  I had to try to figure out if I was able to return to my marriage -I can only change myself and I cannot count on my wife changing.  OC(PD) is perhaps the most benign of the personality disorders -I think if I had to 'pick one' it would be OC(PD).  Where as B(PD) I would not wish on my worst enemy.  

I had to keep a weather eye on why I was returning.  There are certainly benefits to my marriage.  Financial security for one.  Early in my career I saved enough to ensure both our retirement if we stay together.  I paid for the houses.  This is the one thing my wife and I have always been in lockstep -we are 'unparalleled financial partners' (from our accountant).  At 53 I did feel I had to consider financial security.  It cannot be the sole factor.  What gave me hope for returning was some of the progress my wife made while i was gone.  OC(PD) is ego-synodic (medial term) ...  Thus it is not easy for someone with OC(PD) to see where they might be hurtful.  There is a quote I read some someone else with it "I told you I love you three years ago -if something changes I will let you know".  Little warmth, no validation.  Excellence is presumed anything less is met with disgust... super...  I am hopeful for our future.  She compliments me once in a while now -it feels a bit stilted, as it is not her nature, but I appreciate it.  She has a few times told me 'I am not mad at you I am mad at me'.  We are both working on it...  She told me 'You are my perfect man'. when she was asking for reconciliation.  OC(PD) is strange to live with -how could you believe this and never have a kind word?  There seems to be a constant level of noise compelling her toward perfection which precludes much time to leisure -she is unnecessarily hard on herself.

...new fantasies as much emotionally rooted as sexually... ... how often do you hear members here say "i think its the physical closeness I miss".

You mentioned porn...  Dream Come True ruined porn for me.  Now even with I think about it I can't help but wonder how many of the 'actors' suffer from BPD.

To be blunt and brutally honest she was simply not the bee's knees sexually.  She over sexualized things and liked the idea and graphic of sex, but she had very little knowledge.  Sort of 'pretty girl' sex if you will -in other words her simply participating was to have been enough.  Well... In this relationship it was her saying 'it was the best ever'. Chalk one up for the neuro-typical this time...   Why?  Well...  a large percentage of Chinese men do not care about foreplay^*.  When the bar is lying on the ground as a tripping hazard I am Don Juan...  I ended up teaching her quite a bit about female biology -there is no health ed in China.  I.e. the importance of calcium.  She is an 44kg ectomorph (medial term)   Antibiotics must not be taken when one has a virus...  There is always a risk of pregnancy if a condom is not used (there is a bunch of mythology which gets girls in trouble there).

"Rape is considered 'The man being strong' and is not really condemned"
"Chinese men, for the most part, don't do much foreplay..."

Chinese Girl Confessions: Sex and Love, Asian Style
                                                              --Angelina Zhang

I am empathetic and much of the pleasure I derive from sex has to do with my partner's pleasure... This is not usual in China -woman can be seen by men as things.  I am speaking in broad terms, of course -there are 1.3 billion Chinese -but I have heard this story over and over.  

So what do I miss?  I miss the hours upon hours we would talk.  I do miss her beauty -she look like an anime character with colorful hair and tattoos -as a photographer she was certainly graphically appealing.  Most of all I miss the incredible sense of family -grandparents, little step brother and our circle of friends -all artists and for some reason all lesbians -I was the only guy in the apartment, but we all got on well.  I miss the calls every evening to her grandparents where we would spend 20 minutes laughing like idiots.  I miss the dream of what might have been.  However, knowing what I know now I am thankful I opted out .

Mod Note:  OP is responding to this response: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=337964.msg13063746#msg13063746 in the thread titled Ghosting found here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=337964.0

[Cromwell]

I am sorry you are having a hard time.  Do you think it is an extinction burst from your former relationship or is there something else new?

WM put yourself in my situation, think about what you have went through, then think to yourself - you are not on the other side of the planet you are 20minutes drive away, in a small city. You have been stalked through the r/s, but you finally went no contact, got your life on track, all of a sudden there is not just peace, your doing well, you just got a commendation from work, you no longer ruminate, think or feel the need for therapy, hell it was hard to ever imagine it - you even have days filled with joy. and then...in a moment of quiet peace, the revelation hits "somethings not right, everything is going too well" and a gripping sense of imminent doom hits out of nowhere, I felt like the start of a psychotic break I recognise the build up to one but I averted it. Diazepam time and it is rare that I ever reach for one, I am the soberest person I know, within half an hour im fine and it is a "difficult day" nothing more nothing less. I have a date on Tuesday night, as we talked I felt fine, then a song played mid speech and normally ive banished the triggers too, but there was a slight jolt here, I felt uncomfortable, but picked myself up from it. There is like some co-existing surrealism dimension to my life that feels like psychosis symptoms altough I put them down to stress manifestations, I probably need more rest, get burned out, a good night sleep often makes all the difference. I was just fortunate to notice you here, for some reason you are a person that instills a sense of calm historically so and it helps. However, being here I notice involves talking about her and it has started to increase the amount of thoughts from zilch to more. I see a pattern here, it happens when I start dating again.

Whereas, and as much as I enjoy, the notion one would have to be psychotic to fall in love with me -- this did not seem to be the case.  From my experience and my reading I believe someone suffering from BPD feels love more deeply than a neuro-typical person.  Limerence hits us hard, but I believe it knocks someone with hyper-sensitivity for a loop.  I believe they see their new love as salvation -an end to pain.  An answer to all of life's ills.  Then as the reality of the new love begins to seep through the hormone fueled and maniac ether of new love their pain returns and the honeymoon is over... soft fade to pain induced rage, lies, cheating and other mayhem.

You seem absolute certain that psychosis did not play a part in this specific aspect to the r/s (her love for you) yet acknowledge it elsewhere - the schizophrenia diagnosis that you refute, her psychotic thoughts. It is not a nice thing to confront the possibility of - in my own opinion from my own relationship, read "high likelihood" of. It is something I had either filtered out prior, or skim read past. I think I got to a state where confronting it as an option on the table is something that does not unsettle me and i got to that point to accept it without at the same time, concluding it.

No -I believe when she fell in love with me everything she said was true for her in that moment.  No one could fake the raw emotion she exhibited.  She loved with every fiber of her being.

In that moment sure, but what realm was that moment in - was it "reality" as we know it or was it another place. This is not about "faking". I feel its best to not dwelve further here WM because it is not only a complex thing to get into, one that I dont feel qualified to do, but also I get the feeling it is a hot zone topic and Im probably reluctant to go further down this street. I feel better these days enough to know when to back off in discussions, at the same time I feel there would be a failure on my part not to at least raise it for your attention.

I have returned more or less to baseline.  Actually, my normal state had always been quite positive.  I had never known depression and had always a cautiously optimistic view of the world -I worked hard and was generally rewarded for my efforts both vocationally and otherwise.  My marriage had been problematic, but I was so happy with work and every other part of my life my marriage being a comfortable economic partnership seemed acceptable.  As I mentioned long ago, it seems my subconscious had other ideas about this level of sublimation.

It makes me happy to hear this WM, a baseline of familiarity is a lot better place to build upon if you choose to again. When I was in that hellish place my hope was not big dreams of life, relationships, love - i simply wanted priority one, not to lose my sanity, it has since evolved to a regression to the mean, I feel generally speaking, a normalacy of life that i had lost, a familiarity of sorts has returned, and i still find joy and venture into a career im working on and other interests. I also learned more gratitude for things in life I had once taken as banal, and for granted and had in a sense gambled recklessly in the pursuit of hedonistic interests as a way to deal with problems, that should have been dealt with in a different way.

Now my marriage seems to be on the right course.  We are happier now than we ever have been.  My wife has become more aware of how her OC(PD) effects us.  To be honest, my biggest complaint, at this point, is my work is very slow of late.  The Chinese film market is in what they are calling a 'Winter'... in Western terms it is in 'Free fall'...

Again, you are a success story here, I know work is an important part of your life - a passion that you can lose yourself in - I not only hope you pick up more work but perhaps as I try to see a positive side to this - financial aspects aside - how do you feel about this as an opportunity to spend that time in a different way? I say this because I find the more I seek out balance the better my recovery has been - I know you say you immersed yourself into therapy and reading too, I liked your term "healthy neurotic", it gave me something to think about.

Delirious: an acutely disturbed state of mind resulting from illness or intoxication and characterized by restlessness, illusions, and incoherence of thought and speech.

I did a search for the definition of delirious, the first one I looked at had euphoria amongst the terms. The word fits, I relate to delirious - in her presence, but I had put it down to just overwhelmed in infactuation with her, I believe there was more to it, an anxiety component, the delirious states occurred into the relationship and correlated with her negative behaviours, it was not from the onset and start, or the honeymoon period (I dont like this term).

Actually this notion became clear to me straight away.  I believe I compared her to cigarettes in my 2nd or 3rd post -this then evolved (devolved) into describing her as a Schedule 1 drug.

WM, but in this case you went "no turkey" as you did with cigarettes too. Yet another sign of your strength throughout this.

Yes -I feel the repetitive nature of my posts.  I have only a limited data set of experience with my ex.  Beyond what I have read and learned from my reading my knowledge base is static.  

I am not bored by them WM, but I point it out for avoidance of doubt - I have belief in this going over the same neuronal pathways and not their reinforcement but their enhancement. Asides from the neuroscience (I only got a B in this btw) for me these posts started to become repetitive even to myself, to the point of, "play the broken record again Cromwell" and this became a good thing in itself to reflect on. I started to get sick of talking about her rather than just the initial emotions; anger (dealt with) dopamine hit (dealt with), there is maybe also part of my personality that gets bored easily, even with 'love' or pining for lost love, or whatever it was that I was doing. This what others have described as an ADHD style negative point might have turned into an advantage. I just see it as a place that is not just easy to get stuck, but easy to become more entrenched in.

The delirium, or near madness, of new love or limerence is a drug like high.  We were not together long enough for it to be seen in any other light.  We loved each other deeply (well... for her this was intermittent), but we didn't have the time for it to be 'real' love.  I do not believe she has the hammer and tongs to create the foundation for real love at this point in her life.  It takes a strong sense of self to say 'I' - the beginning of 'I love you'.  

The mind bending thing for me in this experience is falling in love with someone i thought I knew enough to love, only to find out that the explicit factors I based in on were so misperceived - the nature of the disorder, I had to learn that I was also able to fall out of love too, but it took a duality of learning the condition, whilst being heartbroken, whilst accepting it slowly (im a sensitive guy).

I miss, as I have always said, the idea of her.  If she were able to sustain her love for herself and me then meeting here would have been the golden ticket it seemed to have been.  I found myself spending a year unhappy because I bought a lottery ticket with the wrong numbers.  I thought it was a winner, but it was not.

WM, is unhappy here a correct reflection. You came here with the post "I have scars that will never heal". This hope I had was in hindsight linked more in to my own needs and issues that I felt were transiently made non existence whilst being in her presence and reading the terrain as id found "the one". This was not buying a lottery ticket, you were a few days away from finding yourself in a financial graveyard that many others have fallen into.

I am over 18 months in and we are just now talking about reducing my sessions.  I feel with the right therapist if can be beneficial -but finding the right match is difficult.  I think this guy is my 4th try -and thankfully he worked out great.  He also treats several people suffering from BPD -so he gets it.

WM, I think there will be a time I have to go and well done for the hard work. Therapy worked well for me although I did not appreciate it at the time. I found other forms of therapy that culminate to keep me out of there. I hope you take this as a semi joke but compliment "you have been my therapist" as much as other members here. I think group therapy is something that avoids my fear of intense 1 to 1 relationships I get too triggered easily from recent events. Either that or a relationship that can overwrite it and affirm my belief that I can still do 'normalacy'.    

Coming back home was difficult to be sure.  I am an easy sell in China vocationally, here in Hollywood it is tougher.  

WM i think its great you focus on your career, in contrast, the field I am studying towards the employment opportunities are ample but I turned down an internship this summer. I used to be career focused, I reached some sort of apathy here if you can call it that, I have a passion for the subject I have lost any interest I once had on attaining the byproducts of it. I find some sense of peace here and freedom. I think my ex who had these dreams of mansions, prestigous careers, and what I felt was a lack of interest in having a guy that worked his b@lls into a sweat at a difficult job, then after, had an even harder job to do, and I never got a sandwhich made for me only to be told "I like my man whipped" and becoming some archetype submissive in absence for any empathy on her part for the guy I really was, hit home, hurt, but went into denial.

So... I found myself having to silently grieve the lost of the fantasy that was Dream Come True, attempt to sift through the ashes looking for an ember to reconcile a marriage gone cold -and then to had to disclose and recover from my betrayal

Yep, but faced it with openness and honesty. I recall that you could have just continued without her ever knowing. Or did you do it to allay any anxiety that DTC could have ever contacted her?

  OC(PD) is ego-synodic (medial term) ...  Thus it is not easy for someone with OC(PD) to see where they might be hurtful.  There is a quote I read some someone else with it "I told you I love you three years ago -if something changes I will let you know".  Little warmth, no validation.  Excellence is presumed anything less is met with disgust... super...  I am hopeful for our future. It sounds challenging WM and I can understand it takes a lot of understanding to overlook what comes across as a lack of gratitude although I cant imagine what it is like to face it in marriage or if it is something you ever become "used to".

You mentioned porn...  Dream Come True ruined porn for me.  Now even with I think about it I can't help but wonder how many of the 'actors' suffer from BPD.

I know this is a family board and try to keep this with what decorum is expected but in summary: the sex had to be rough and emotionless. a stark contrast to the emotional 'intimacy' and my attempts to incorporate it into sex was rebuked. Except for after the break ups and now when I look back and identify what I believe were here dysregulated moments of extreme emotional need - those were moments where I felt this renewed sense of hope each time that "this is what I wanted" and that this is who she really was. When I split up and slept with two mutual friends, then got back with her, I was instructed to have sex with her the exact same way I had with them.

WM if your luck ever drys up in film in Hollywood, consider therapy, from the side of the chair not the couch. On the subject of ghosting (everything is interrelated in life's continuum, therefore nothing is off topic) if you disappear from here one day, I hope and wish you all the best for the way you have brought solace to me in the times I needed it most, up to an including today. Calcium supplements though?  , im too tired to respond to, besides im healing to the point of trying not to be seen as "that Cromwell what a smart-a$$, I hope I never meet him again..."   

[Wicker Man]

...in my situation...

Cromwell -yes I am thankful for the Pacific Ocean -it has made no contact 10,000km easier, although I did do a week of color correction in Beijing.  I had worked at this studio while we were still together and my hotel was about 25 minutes from 'our' apartment.  It was a tough week because it hammered home, in a concrete sense, the edict of never seeing her again.  I was not even tempted to contact her -because of her obsessive 'devotion' to our relationship since its demise I have no idea what a meeting between us might look like.  I cannot imagine it ending well.  When we spoke at Christmas she shared her 'revelation' of our destiny to be together -past lives and so forth.  I know I keep saying this -but I have so much pity for her.  I learned she did attempt to get a visa to fly here, but was turned down -thank goodness.

...everything is going too well...

My father was haunted by this notion -he never felt at ease with his success.  He was the result of an old world Irish Catholic upbringing and everything that implies... I was spared this -actually when things are going well it inspires me to work all the harder -to keep the lucky streak going.  This was actually how I felt while I was with her.  My work was going gangbusters, nearly 2 years without a break and I thought I had found 'true' love.  Every morning I had off work I was sending emails to get the next thing.  She admired my work and I had her full support. 

Diazepam time... ...it is rare that I ever reach for one

As you know be careful of Benzos.  I use Alprazolam to help me sleep now and again.  If I cannot sleep it is always stress related -or timezone issues.  A script of 30 will generally last me 6 months.

... a song played...

I have been able to 'win' back almost all of 'our' music... except a couple songs.  They are still huge triggers for me.  As we touched upon, most of the other sights, sounds, smells, and tastes are a half a world away.  Triggers are interesting to be sure.

There is like some co-existing surrealism dimension to my life that feels like psychosis symptoms... ...I put them down to stress manifestations...

I am not completely certain we use the term 'psychosis' in the same manner.  You mentioned Dream Come True perhaps suffering from psychosis while we were falling into love (or down the rabbit hole -issue of perspective I suspect).  The way I understand the term 'psychosis' - it implies experiencing delusions, auditory, visual, olfactory etc.  Experiencing an altered reality.  Dream Come True heard voices frequently, but seeing things was only when under extreme stress.  She would mix up her dreams and reality E.g. she was furious I had forgotten she told me she heard voices... Ok... I forget things to be sure... But... in my defense no one has ever told me they heard voices before.  It is remarkable, in the truest sense -I would have marked it.  I suggested, quietly, carefully and calmly -'Is it possible you told me in a dream?'.  Her hackles went up for a moment and then she admitted that yes, sometimes she cannot remember what was 'real' and what was in a dream.

...for some reason you are a person that instills a sense of calm...

This seems to be some sort of a consensus.  I have been hearing this my entire life.  Perhaps it is a result of being a parentified child?  Both my parents always said as much.  Dream Come True’s family told me I make her calm and happy.

… being here I notice involves talking about her …

This has been a concern of mine for quite some time.  Talking and thinking about her has cooled for me.  I still miss the idea of her (and her laugh), but I now feel more certain than ever things would have ended very badly for me if I had gone back to her.  I no longer feel chatting here is an attempt, on some level, to keep my relationship with her alive

You seem absolute certain that psychosis did not play a part in this specific aspect to the r/s (her love for you) yet acknowledge it elsewhere…

At first I accepted the Schizophrenia diagnosis, although I was confused by it.  She presented none of the other ‘tells’.  She dresses incredibly well, she functions with extreme proficiency at work, her speech is uninterrupted, and she has no body ticks.  So… I assumed extremely high functioning(?).  Bi-polar also didn’t make sense because her cycles was too abrupt and I never saw real mania. 

There are real and serious cognitive distortions with BPD and her actions seemed to fall well into this description from my layman's perspective --dichotomous thinking and extreme emotional instability was the tune we marched to.

When she said I was 'glowing' when she first saw me perhaps could be construed as a psychotic event -but nothing compared to the ‘Full Monty’ of the event I saw her suffer through later.

… "reality"… …"faking"…  … I dont feel qualified [to continue the discussion]

You are studying in the field, which would leave you more qualified than me.  If you think my perception is incorrect please feel free to elaborate.  I can certainly take a punch -particularly if it leads to more learning.

… I also learned more gratitude for things in life…

I am a huge fan of being thankful.  Life is ever changing and all too often this change means loss.  Health, friends, family, possessions -all will eventually be lost.  So be thankful.

“The Only Thing That Is Constant Is Change -”

                                                         ― Heraclitus

If we have any hope whatsoever of being happy we have to stop and appreciate how really lucky we actually are.  I am guessing about 4 billion people would be more than happy to have the problems we have.

… how do you feel about this as an opportunity to spend that time in a different way [vocationally]?

When I was busy working I always made great use of my time off.  Now with there being too much time off I was feeling frozen.  This last 4 months I have been making good use of my time off -but miss the excitement, structure, and creative outlet of work.  I spent a week installing a 100amp service panel in my garage for a woodshop -it is nice to have a feeling of accomplishment, but not as rewarding as work.

… I liked your term "healthy neurotic", it gave me something to think about…

I believe in the Freudian school of thought of all people, other than the severely mentally ill, are neurotics.  I figured that fits better than ‘non’.  I don’t have a personality disorder, but I do have some things to work through.

…you went "no turkey" as you did with cigarettes too. Yet another sign of your strength throughout this…

Everything with Dream Come True was extreme -black and white, heaven and hell.  There was to be no middle ground with her.  I saw no choice but to cut her out of my life.  I loved her too much to see what her next chapter might look like.  She wasn't making particularly good choices with my influence -without it I am afraid things will be even more grim -I don’t want to watch. 

The sad irony of BPD.  She is incredibly sensitive, and yet does things which she will find very upsetting once the dust settles.  I keep using the term ‘Ironically tragic’ my therapist uses ‘paradoxical’ -subjective versus objective view I suppose...

… I started to get sick of talking about her…

I have experienced the same thing.  The emotional strain has become diluted in the repetition.  Perhaps this is a healthy path to healing?  Certainly laying everything bare leaves little room for repression.

…The mind bending thing for me in this experience is falling in love with someone i thought I knew enough to love…

This seems to be a common thread with relationships involving BPD.  It certainly was my experience.  My theory is I was not tricked -she believed everything she said.  However, it is not sustainable.  The darker parts of the disorder then wreak havoc. 

… "I have scars that will never heal"...

I feel better now, but this is the only relationship which I was not able to get over quickly.  I had never suffered from cognitive dissonance after a break up.  In the past things were bad -so we broke up...  Both parties are sad and then life goes on.  In this last case things were great, until they were horrible.  She said lovely things, but her actions were incongruent.  A mess psychologically and emotionally for me.

… This was not buying a lottery ticket, you were a few days away from finding yourself in a financial graveyard…

Actually… The lottery is not a bad analogy.  Lots of people buy themselves into poverty with the lottery here in the states. 

…I think group therapy is something that avoids my fear of intense 1 to 1 relationships…

I have never been a fan of groups.  Most people, in my estimation, do not apply themselves to a level acceptable to me.  Further, most people simply don't listen, they take the time when you are speaking to decide what they will say next -regardless of your input.  But if group works for you it is a good realization.

… I reached some sort of apathy here [vocationally] if you can call it that…

I can understand the concept -but with my work being freelance there is little room for complacency.  I am glad to hear you still enjoy the learning of it. 

Dream Come True was very supportive of my work -but it was something we shared.  She claimed to not care about money -but I have a feeling she would have bailed on us for a rich kid at some point.  I liked the idea of having less -but life rich in experience.  ‘Lieben und Luft’ (love and air).  Nice idea any way…

…Why did I disclose my affair?...

My wife asked me pointblank if I was with someone else while we were still divorcing.  I felt being honest would help my wife’s healing process.  I never stopped loving my wife and wished her no ill will, but I felt the marriage was dead. 

Deciding whether to disclose an affair or not is a hard decision.  If one decided to disclose an affair the disclosure cannot become a confession to absolve oneself of guilt at the expense of your partner -it is a delicate and painful process.  We needed to rebuild the trust in our relationship -which I had destroyed.  So full disclosure was necessary.   I didn't worry much about Dream Come True contacting my wife.  It would have been painful for both of them -so I am glad it has not occurred.

[OCPD] …what it is like to face it in marriage or if it is something you ever become "used to"…

Sadly, much like BPD most people say ‘run’.  OCPD is manageable, but it is a challenge.  My wife has a lot of contempt for herself -she feels she can never live up to her idea of ‘perfection’.  The anger I see is nothing compared to the inner dialogue…  Actually, much like BPD I imagine.  The worst pain created by personality disorders is experienced by the person suffering from it -we only get the fallout (which is plenty) from this pain.

… sex had to be rough and emotionless…

Dream Come True was interesting in fetishism (I think she liked the visual graphic of it), but I told her it can become addictive and this point, when a hug is euphoric, we simply didn’t need props.  I told her if we want to walk down that road it should be slowly, step by step, and later in our relationship.  She accepted this.  I think 'intimate' intimacy was novel for her.  E.g. my Chinese friend how told me he likes Red Bull before sex ‘to make me powerful’…  ummmm… right…  You go power boy… 

I believe Dream Come True requested rough sex in the beginning because it had been the only way to feel anything in what had been, her previous experiences, an otherwise brief and brutal encounter --   

…Calcium supplements though?  …red-flag…

I neither condone you, nor anyone else no longer being a smart-ass…  Life is far too short to miss an opportunity to slag someone off in a good natured manner.

Dream Come True had no notion of modern nutrition or basic modern medicine.  I did my best to try to help her toward a Western notion of a healthy life style.  Hell… most American have little to no knowledge of nutrition.  I do hope she remembers the calcium though.  Osteoporosis cannot be any fun.

Her roommate on a movie became pregnant because they had sex on the last day of her period -which many Chinese believe is a safe day for unsafe sex.  Ironically Dream Come True told her this was the case -she had learned it from me.  I had to actually show her articles on the subject -because she didn't believe she had been misinformed. 

[Cromwell]

Hi Wicker Man

Thanks to you as always and historically, being there for those times I have been hit by the maelstrom of too much at once.

I am grateful to you for the advice about a year ago now to start cycling, I took it onboard, cycle daily, helped me lose 8kg, got me out of the house, was a conduit towards having a overall healthy lifestyle, mood has increased substantially. Your advice was well intentioned, and to an extent it worked, but as much as nutrition knowledge is very much rooted in applying to the individual, so to is a lot of advice that becomes distilled and generalised, but not necessarily having the efficacy of our unique situations. Things like "feeling low? go to the gym, exercise more"
There are faults that can be found in this advice, and again, depends very much on the person and their situation. For mines, I needed more of a diet change, complete rest, and at most some short walks. Stress does not disappear or can be "exercised away", it gets masked by endorphin release. Vigorous exercise of too long duration keeps heart rate elevated and releases hormones that can also disturb sleep.

WM, I think I need about 1 month, physically away, not a holiday as such, but a time to heal. The issue is, as much for lack of funds, is I am stuck in this groove of high productivity, when im in that zone, I can relate to what you said about losing yourself in it. I feel that disconnect and it has indeed pushed her out of those ruminations, to the point where those neural pathways became used less.

These diagnoses of psychosis, in a clinical sense - your list of symptoms fits but in a broader sense it is a wide area of debate about what psychosis is. Stuff such as dreams for instance, or day dreams, it is not all about distressing stimuli, the root of which can also be neurological or opthalmic in pathology. A nerve adenoma can create auditory disturbances, in terms of optic hallucinations an example Charles Bonnet Syndrome which is non psychiatric. The take home message is, sometimes there is much more to it, in others what is believed to be something confusing, has a root simple cause that is overlooked. It is a bad physician or psychiatrist that rushes to a diagnosis. I think it helped me personally, (not to detract others from trying) to stop trying to find out the "whys" of things happening and instead accept simple facts "that" things happened, and whilst distressing, it became superflous to need to find a reason. I took the time to seek various theories and explanations, it made little difference to the net result; as much as it got to the point where an answer isnt really relevant anymore, to where my life has since moved on to.



Thanks for the heads up about going easy on the benzos, I say it with my checkered past, in terms of the here and now, we are at about the same level of usage. They are low dose to the extent can be equated as much as taking an acetaminophen for a headache. benzos on an adhoc basis, fine, for less than 2 weeks continous fine, more than that and the general issue is one of a rebound form of anxiety that is common. I generally sleep well most nights WM, have a healthy routine - these acute stress symtoms do occur but are transient and when I see how you come across here I feel a strong sense of progress afterwards. There is more than just simple element of catharsis, it has helped to hear each other out and discuss it methodically.

WickerMan, thanks. as always, best wishes and my gratitude. Cromwell.

[Wicker Man]

...start cycling

For me aerobic exercise has always been grounding.  (of course) I have a theory  -the repetitive motions, either walking, running, or cycling, has a similar effect to meditation.  No matter my mental state aerobic activity seems to elevate it.  --I am really hoping I can get back to running this year.

"feeling low? go to the gym, exercise more"... ...There are faults that can be found in this advice, and again, depends very much on the person and their situation.

There is certainly no a one size fits all panacea for reducing depression -however getting to the gym, generally speaking, is sound advice.  It gets people out of the house and can ultimately make them feel better about themselves and their appearance. 

WM, I think I need about 1 month, physically away, not a holiday as such, but a time to heal.

That actually sounds like the best of vacations.  I know we are a little old for it, but what about going to a youth hostel?  There is a lot of Europe which can be had on a shoestring budget.  Time is another thing.  Being freelance when I have the money there is no time -when I have the time I am afraid to spend the money -Catch 22.

These diagnoses of psychosis, in a clinical sense...

I still read about BPD.  It is a fascinating train wreck of a disorder and never ceases to amaze me how broad and destructive the disorder can be for those suffering from it.  If you have the time and inclination this article poses an interesting argument.  It first attempts to establish and confirm the necessity for BPD as a diagnosis and then goes further to propose reclassifying it from a PD to an Axis 1 disorder. 

The Case for Shifting Borderline Personality Disorder to Axis I


https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/b0d5/69e0dbfa5e63dc609af47ecd952ec5d8ff5c.pdf

To quote Arnold Schwarzenegger from Kindergarten Cop 'It is not a tumor'.  Yes... it could be Dream Come True does not in fact have BPD -However... learning about BPD has certainly help me to have a framework in which to understand what in the wide wide world of sports I experienced. 

When you offer someone the Sun and Moon and they say 'Yay!  I like the Sun and Moon' and then act in a manner which is utterly contraindicated is mind snapping. 

To have someone crave something to the point where is becomes a need and then to be able to forget completely is haunting.

To have someone preach love and all of its trappings one moment and then hop in bed with someone else is sad.

I don't know if you are a Blazing Saddles (Mel Brooks) fan -but being with Dream Come True made me think of the scene where sheriff Bart puts a gun to his own head and holds himself hostage. 


Dr. Johnson: Hold it men, he's not bluffing!
Dr. Samuel Johnson: Listen to him, men; he's just crazy enough to do it!
...  ...

Harriet Johnson: Isn't anyone going to help that poor man?
Dr. Samuel Johnson: Hush, Harriet! That's a sure way to get him killed!

The more I tried to create a stable home for Dream Come True the quicker she seemed to whip out the proverbial six shooter and drag herself off by the collar into the next scene. 

...and have a look at the forth act of this disaster movie!  She is, on some level, still embroiled in our relationship she, which through word and action, laid asunder.  One has to get up pretty early in the morning to have me give up on them.  I have a thick skin and can take a hit - and when someone is in need it is not my instinct to turn my back on them.  However, I have never been in a situation of one double bind piled upon another. 

She being a genius and likely the most charismatic person I have met makes the entire experience all the more disquieting.  As I have said I don' think I have enjoyed speaking to any other human being more than her.  Whether in Mandarin or English speaking with her was always an adventure.  I would wake up early to write her letters which would fuel the conversations for the next day -it could be philosophy, art, music, or just the daily grind.  It simply felt great to exchange ideas with her.  --when she was firing on all cylinders she has an amazingly quick and wicked sense of humor. 

It is the stark and dire contrast between what she said and her actions which had kept me stuck for so many months.  To get back around to my point...  In an attempt to know my enemy and therein re-learn who I am, it has helped me to read everything on BPD, and personality disorders in general, I could get my hot little hands on.

...sometimes there is much more to it... ...It is a bad physician or psychiatrist that rushes to a diagnosis... ...stop trying to find out the "whys" of things happening and instead accept simple facts "that" things happened...

Yes -ultimately it simply doesn't matter why she is who she is.  Radical acceptance dictates and demands I submit and surrender to the notion she cannot have a healthy relationship at this point in her life's journey.  Any other conception of the situation, on my part, would be madness.  Perhaps it would have saved me time and consternation if I had just framed her as a 'bad and broken' person.  -but there is good in her and she is able to express the deepest love (sometimes).  -What seemed to be a love story of epic proportions just ended up being a confusing, painful and sad tryst. 

An example of, as she taught me to say, '生活很难' -life is hard.

...best wishes and my gratitude. Cromwell

It has been a pleasure.