OCD connection to executive control impairment

[isilme]

So I joined a Facebook group for kids of hoarders.  My parents weren’t, but my in law are, and I know the mom has contributed to her kids PD problems, if not outright caused them.

I learned that hoarding has been linked in some ways to ocd, and one aspect they share is the inability to make decisions. 

My husband shows a lot of stress over what I see as simple easy decisions, like he treats it as a huge ordeal to fill in a grocery list, or send me tax forms.  I can understand stress buying a car, but telling me if you want corn dogs should not be a chore.  I’m the one taking the time to go, pick it up and bring it back and put it away. 

We had another argument today about me, going to the store, we’d run out of eggs, and he’s disregarding my migraines and exhaustion from chronic illness, plus the fact I had three days taken up by getting a tree removed and replacing a window broken in the process, as reason I’ve not gone to the store.  He won’t go.  He just won’t.  If I die before him, he will live off pizza I guess. 

Anyway, I just realized that deciding what you need from the store falls into an ocd level of stress. 

Since doubt is the cornerstone of OCD, sufferers often have the need to know, for certain, that all these decisions they are making are the right ones. This is much easier said than done. Sure, you like the way your new jacket looks, but maybe the cheaper one you didn’t choose would have been just as nice. The restaurant you took your co-worker to for lunch was great, but maybe the “other one” would have had better specials. You love your job, but maybe if you’d continued on with your education, you’d have an even better job now. And so the ideal life that freedom and abundance offers doesn’t exist. Perfection eludes us; there is always doubt.

OCD sufferers might also worry how their choices will affect others, and agonize (to the point of obsession) over even the most minor decisions. “What if the movie I choose is boring for my friend?” “Will I insult my child’s teacher if I say no to a volunteer project?” “Will my doctor be upset if I choose another healthcare provider?”     

https://www.mentalhelp.net/blogs/ocd-and-decision-making/

I just wanted to share this, as the reluctance to ‘adult’ and the blow back when it’s pointed out is a big issues for many of us.  Imagine ocd plus BPD together, where you can’t make decisions but can’t accept the blame for that lack.

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[Scarlet Phoenix]

Interesting. Thanks for sharing!

[I Am Redeemed]

I found this incredibly interesting. Is it linked to OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder) or OCPD (Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder), or both? To my understanding, there are similarities in the two, but distinct differences also.

I cringed a little reading this because I have an obsessive-compulsive personality type (not enough criteria for the disorder, though) and I can see myself in the examples provided. I have a hard time making decisions and I do ask myself those kinds of questions: Will my T be hurt if I choose a new T? Should I get xyz at the grocery store? What if it sits in the fridge and I end up throwing it out? What if I don't get it and then I get home and realize I should have gotten it?

I can usually talk myself down out of this kind of thinking, but the thoughts are there. Also, experiencing years of emotional abuse, gaslighting, criticizing, and blaming damaged my ability to make decisions with confidence, so there's that lovely element, as well.

Is the hoarding thing linked to poor decision making because of the obsessiveness over the possibility of needing the items sometime in the future, hence the reluctance or refusal to get rid of "stuff"? I used to watch those shows on TV and see how agonizing it was for some people to decide what stays and what goes. Like they were terrified that if they made the wrong decision and let go of something, they might "need" it later and then it would be gone, and that seemed to produce so much anxiety in these people.

My stbx ubpdh was actually diagnosed with ocpd, though I don't necessarily think it was accurate, but he would get angry if he was asked for input on things like "what kind of meals would you like to have this week?" He wanted me to make those decisions, but read his mind at the same time and pick exactly what he might want according to any given mood he might have on any given day of the week. That just made my anxiety over decision making flare up- what if I don't buy pork chops, and on tuesday he decides that pork chops would be the only meal he would really like to have for dinner? Then I'm the selfish person who didn't stop to think that he would want pork chops on tuesday 

[isilme]

This is Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder.  Hoarding at this time is within that heading, but they are thinking it needs it's own.

Yes, the hoarding issues with decisions making is that they find it hard to decide what is needed and what is not.  If there is a 5% chance you can use something, it's a sin to throw it away, sell it, or give it away.  You might need it!  Making these decisions seems to cause a lot of stress and anxiety, and the objects give peace of mind.  And they seem to make the hoard part of themselves, and so removal of it is a betrayal - you may as well have cut off a foot while they slept.  We have made the mistake a few times and cleaned, thinking it was stress and tiredness leading to it... nope, it's the mom's poor executive control.  And she has since decided we either stole from her (a vacuum that was $2000, some parts are missing, we did not take it - we have hardwood floors) or threw out heirlooms (a missing recipe box that has likely been missing since 1990). 

Self-doubt is normal.  We all fight it.  I am extremely codependent and worry a lot about making people happy, even after all the progress I've made from growing up as an only child with 2 BPD parents.  So I worry if my friends are enjoying things or just going along to make me happy, which triggers guilt.

And I recognize some compulsions on my part - many stem from lack of control of my childhood environment, so I controlled what I could - me.  I need to bathe and shave my legs every night so I can sleep.  I need the bed to be somewhat made, sheets straight, hospital corners are the best (my childhood bed, and later my bed at my stepmother's, both had spring poking thru the mattress, it did not occur to me to tell an adult so it could be fixed, I just slept on top of covers with an extra blanket).  I need the kitchen a certain level of clean before I cook.  H can just go in and doesn't care if the trash is full or any dishes in the sink - I need both clear before I start, counters clear.  I count in my head doing task like walking, sometimes out loud, I need to touch door locks to believe they are locked and the house is secure.  I tend to blurt out phrases that I don't understand but they seem to be a stress response.  These are small rituals, I realize they are on the verge of if not already compulsions.

I am trying to find empathy and understanding regarding my H - I find that the more I can step back and try to see how he feels, or what may be driving it (when you can see an annual trigger, you're at least prepared) I harbor less anger, less need to JADE, and less resentment.

[Enabler]

Hoarding is a very childish behaviour as well. I regularly try and help the kids tidy their rooms and throw things away. D10 and D6 would keep every scrap of paper they have ever scribbled on. D9 on the other hand is militantly rational, very mature and chucks away anything that isn't useful or seriously sentimental.

Enabler

[I Am Redeemed]

Oooh, I do the kitchen thing too. I cannot cook if there are dirty dishes everywhere or the trash is full. I will clean first, cook, then clean again or clean as I go.

I'm also weird about sheets. I can't sleep with covers all tangled up or a corner of the sheets coming off the bed.

I've heard of some people hoarding pets. Like, people with literally fifty or more cats in the house, and it isn't healthy, but they feel like they are saving these animals from homelessness and therefore can't let them go.

[Enabler]

Oooh, I do the kitchen thing too. I cannot cook if there are dirty dishes everywhere or the trash is full. I will clean first, cook, then clean again or clean as I go.

I can't cook in a messy kitchen, nor can I eat until the kitchen has been tidied. 

[Red5]

yes, #me2… I have to clean the kitchen before I cook, or prepare anything to eat.

… also "clean as I go"… I do stack a few dishes, coffee cups, lunch pale stuff in the sink, but ALWAYS on the right, and it gets loaded into the dishwasher right away.

I am "ocd" about the granite counter tops… always spraying them with polish and wiping them down.

I cover down, and align everything, I line up an "organize" all the cabinets, and drawers… you should see the cupboard and pantry… cans all stacked up, by item,

Got to make the bed every morning… I recycle everything… paper, plastic, cardboard, glass...

But there are other things I will just let go for awhile, until the time for "monthly maintenance"…

Utility room, washer and dryer area… same same… got to be squared away.

Sweep and swab the decks, ship shape, "AJ" squared away…

… bathrooms, same same… got to be clean, smell clean,

The yard… mowed, weeded, trimmed up… "kept".

But I don't "force others"… I just follow them around, when they aren't looking… with my "scuz rag" and bottle of windex : )

I am sure it was due to my upbringing… my Dear Grandmother… told me to "learn how to take care of yourself, you might be all on your own one day boy"… she taught me to cook and sew too… Grampa taught me how to work hard, and use all manner of tools, and to fix things...

Then I spent 26 years in the Marines, aviation, jet fighters, eight squadrons over twenty years… hmmm,

Even in my first marriage, I can see I probably did more than half the housework, when I wasn't deployed… and the kids were a 50-50 thing with us,

I'm picky, particular… I too have all manner of "rituals"… I also touch door knobs… I will go back two-three times to ensure something is just right, "correct".

… what did I do in the Marines… I loaded bombs on jets… so "attention to detail"… wow  

My oldest Son, whom is autistic… of course he also has many many rituals, which is part of autism…

I would call myself a "low order" hoarder… I keep the bread ties, for tying up tomato plants… I have a "junk drawer" in the kitchen… cant seem to throw away a piece of wood, I keep old shoe laces…

… on and on… you should see the attic above my shed … but "perfectly harmless you see"  

Red5

[I Am Redeemed]

I keep butter bowls and such for "redneck tupperware" 

Red, what do you do with old shoelaces? I am intrigued.

[Red5]

I keep butter bowls and such for "redneck tupperware"  

Red, what do you do with old shoelaces? I am intrigued.

(BIG SMILE)  … what's the old joke… it took me ten minutes to find the butter at Granny's house  !

… old shoelaces = string… ie' to tie down the tarp over the wood pile, tie up things to "cup hooks" in the overhead in the shed… never know  … might have to "tie something down"…

I used a bunch of it to hang up pvc pipe in the shed here a while back… something else I "hoard"…

I'm sure I got this from my Grandmother… her and Grampa grew up during the Great Depression… she never thru anything away… Grampa was about the same way… I am remembering the "tool room" out in the sawmill… my shed (shop) out back is certainly reminiscent of that old tool room… these are all very happy and wonderful memories for me… Thank God for my Granny and Grampa… I think about them both every single day (tears)...

Red5

[isilme]

I think a little clutter and collecting is normal in today's plentiful society - many of us also had parents or grandparents who lived thru the Depression, and so you didn't waste things. 

I am having to let go a little of my expectations for tidiness - the chronic illness that has overcome me in the last 3 years makes me so tired, so exhausted, that while I clean before and as I go cooking, I still find myself with dishes in the sink, and things are put away, but it's often haphazard just to clear counters.

We hoard art supplies.  I'm fine letting some things go, but my lucky paint jar was a hard thing to put in the goodwill bin. 

Hoarding is far more than just having things, though.  It's an irrational attachment to these things, where things matter more than people. 

There's an art term, "horror vacui" that pre-renaissance artists practiced - it means fear of empty spaces.  Pre-Renaissance, you will find reliefs and other works that are crammed full of figures, stuffed into impossible poses just to avoid empty space.  The renaissance masters thought this poor design and eliminated it until the baroque artists brought it back. 

Anyway, I think my MIL has horror vacui - any empty space should be, must be filled, with a cat or a box, or things.  She feels uncomfortable if there is more than a narrow channel in which to carefully walk.  I am the opposite - crap on my floors stresses me, and I need to see them clear, safe, and if possible, swept and mopped.  Counters - fill em.  Tabletops, fill em.  I spend a significant part of my visits simply cleaning the kitchen in a manner where I can safely and somewhat efficiently cook, trying to put everything back where she had it to avoid freaking her out.  H gets upset, as he's watched me decline over the last few years (I was only diagnosed this spring) and he sees how his physical limitations (and emotional ones) prevent him from doing a lot, so I run about serving hand and foot for our visits just to keep him fed - can't cook for just him, really need to feed them, too. 

But H is little better at clearing things.  I have to sit in the room with him so he can put clothes into a bin for donations.  I did not really understand what an ordeal making that decision is for him, when for me it's like - does it fit?  have I worn it in a  year? is it only for special occasions?  Do I have enough hangers/space without donating it? If I get a no on these, I can usually toss enough items to warrant a trip to get them out of the house.  He needs me there as a "wubby".