Continuing conversations w/ SD13

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Still continuing from https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=337800.0

Just some more processing.

So, interestingly, one of the themes that SD13 has brought up each time we've talked about pronouns is that "I know I can't make you use them"; or, a variation: "There's 7 billion people in the world; not everyone is going to use my pronouns".

I'd taken SD13 to meet with a potential teacher for an activity. This was set up before I knew about the desired pronouns, so the teacher expected "her" to show up. The teacher used she/her, and when I did comment about SD13, I would use "[SD13_name]" instead of any pronoun.

Afterwards, SD13 commented about noticing that I didn't use any pronouns, and said "I think it would be confusing for people if they hear kells76 saying she/her but I tell them I'm he/him, so if you're not going to use he/him just use she/her". Part of the argument was that SD13 didn't want there to be conflict or for people to be confused about what was going on in our family, or for there to be (I think) even perceived conflict, or a perception that kells76 "didn't approve". I tried to talk through S13's thoughts to make sure I was tracking: "So, you're thinking that if I'm not using he/him, you'd rather I just use she/her, and not this middle way of [SD13_name]?" And interestingly, that seems to be the case.

I shared that I feel like I'm still in process with pronouns, and it might be a little bumpy or awkward for a while. I think that was where SD13 said the thing about "Well, not everyone is going to use my pronouns". [Side note, we've been very into the Avengers movies, so if you get the reference, yay] I reflected that I feel a little like Captain America in this situation, where I see that a lot of people are doing something different from me, because they believe it's the right thing to do, and I can see that I might be the only one not doing that thing, also because I believe it's the right thing to do.

We talked through an option for future situations: "So next time we're in a situation like this, I want you to know that if you want to share your pronouns with someone, I'll give you the space to do that". SD13 wasn't sure what that meant so I let her know that if she wanted to tell people about he/him pronouns, that was no problem with me, it wasn't like if she did that then "we were done there". I offered that if SD13 wanted me to share with the teacher that SD13 used he/him, I'd be happy to do that. SD13 said she'd rather do that herself. I reflected that I could tell that pronouns were really important to SD13 and that I saw that what was real about SD13's life was that SD13 wanted he/him pronouns.

I commented that I didn't think that it was either of our responsibility to make sure that people weren't confused about our family. If someone hears SD13 choosing pronouns he/him and hears kells76 using pronouns she/her, and is confused, then that's their issue, not ours. I said that if it seems like an explanation is needed, I can do that. Our family is unique, and even though SD13 and I aren't carbon copies of each other, we have each others backs.

I let SD13 know I was really glad SD13 could share with me where she was at and that I loved to listen, even though I wasn't always great. SD13 talked a little about not having a lot of people to talk to with school being out, so we agreed that it would be awesome to have a long chunk of time, like on a road trip, where SD13 could just talk, and I could listen.

...

What stuck out to me about that interaction was SD13's discomfort with "the middle way", which surprised me. I'm wondering if some of SD13's anxiety about "not knowing" is coming up, where it's almost easier to just "know" that kells76 will be using she/her than to "not know" what kells76 is still thinking about/deciding.

Almost like it's hard for SD13 to not be "driving the car" on this one, so much so that SD13 would take me using she/her versus being "in limbo" and not having control over what I go with.

I think that's been a pattern in our family system for many years. SD13 really struggles with other people "making decisions for/about" SD13. Mom has harnessed that anxiety as a way to "get at" DH; in the past, it's been SD13's feelings about spending time with DH that have "run the show", with Mom being able to "just be supportive of SD13's feelings" and being the one to "really listen to her voice".

I'm not sure that I'm right to not use he/him. I'm not sure that I'm wrong. I'm not sure that it's bad for SD13 to use he/him, or that it's not bad to use he/him. I do have a strong suspicion, though, that there have not been many adults in SD13's life who "take the steering wheel back" from her. I'm praying that maybe this can be a time for that, where SD13 can see that it's not always SD13 calling the shots.

Hearing the C say that based on her experience, SD13 is in this position as a way to manage massive anxiety (versus "true" transgenderism), and then kind of being surprised by SD13 saying "Well just use she/her if you won't use he/him" is leading me down the road of thinking that DH and I should quietly stay firm.

I think I read somewhere that kids don't actually want to be in control of the adults in their lives, despite all outward/verbal manifestations to the contrary. Part of me wonders if it's not kind of scary for SD13 to "see her power" over all these adults.

[kells76]

Still continuing from https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=337800.0

Just some more processing.

So, interestingly, one of the themes that SD13 has brought up each time we've talked about pronouns is that "I know I can't make you use them"; or, a variation: "There's 7 billion people in the world; not everyone is going to use my pronouns".

I'd taken SD13 to meet with a potential teacher for an activity. This was set up before I knew about the desired pronouns, so the teacher expected "her" to show up. The teacher used she/her, and when I did comment about SD13, I would use "[SD13_name]" instead of any pronoun.

Afterwards, SD13 commented about noticing that I didn't use any pronouns, and said "I think it would be confusing for people if they hear kells76 saying she/her but I tell them I'm he/him, so if you're not going to use he/him just use she/her". Part of the argument was that SD13 didn't want there to be conflict or for people to be confused about what was going on in our family, or for there to be (I think) even perceived conflict, or a perception that kells76 "didn't approve". I tried to talk through S13's thoughts to make sure I was tracking: "So, you're thinking that if I'm not using he/him, you'd rather I just use she/her, and not this middle way of [SD13_name]?" And interestingly, that seems to be the case.

I shared that I feel like I'm still in process with pronouns, and it might be a little bumpy or awkward for a while. I think that was where SD13 said the thing about "Well, not everyone is going to use my pronouns". [Side note, we've been very into the Avengers movies, so if you get the reference, yay] I reflected that I feel a little like Captain America in this situation, where I see that a lot of people are doing something different from me, because they believe it's the right thing to do, and I can see that I might be the only one not doing that thing, also because I believe it's the right thing to do.

We talked through an option for future situations: "So next time we're in a situation like this, I want you to know that if you want to share your pronouns with someone, I'll give you the space to do that". SD13 wasn't sure what that meant so I let her know that if she wanted to tell people about he/him pronouns, that was no problem with me, it wasn't like if she did that then "we were done there". I offered that if SD13 wanted me to share with the teacher that SD13 used he/him, I'd be happy to do that. SD13 said she'd rather do that herself. I reflected that I could tell that pronouns were really important to SD13 and that I saw that what was real about SD13's life was that SD13 wanted he/him pronouns.

I commented that I didn't think that it was either of our responsibility to make sure that people weren't confused about our family. If someone hears SD13 choosing pronouns he/him and hears kells76 using pronouns she/her, and is confused, then that's their issue, not ours. I said that if it seems like an explanation is needed, I can do that. Our family is unique, and even though SD13 and I aren't carbon copies of each other, we have each others backs.

I let SD13 know I was really glad SD13 could share with me where she was at and that I loved to listen, even though I wasn't always great. SD13 talked a little about not having a lot of people to talk to with school being out, so we agreed that it would be awesome to have a long chunk of time, like on a road trip, where SD13 could just talk, and I could listen.

...

What stuck out to me about that interaction was SD13's discomfort with "the middle way", which surprised me. I'm wondering if some of SD13's anxiety about "not knowing" is coming up, where it's almost easier to just "know" that kells76 will be using she/her than to "not know" what kells76 is still thinking about/deciding.

Almost like it's hard for SD13 to not be "driving the car" on this one, so much so that SD13 would take me using she/her versus being "in limbo" and not having control over what I go with.

I think that's been a pattern in our family system for many years. SD13 really struggles with other people "making decisions for/about" SD13. Mom has harnessed that anxiety as a way to "get at" DH; in the past, it's been SD13's feelings about spending time with DH that have "run the show", with Mom being able to "just be supportive of SD13's feelings" and being the one to "really listen to her voice".

I'm not sure that I'm right to not use he/him. I'm not sure that I'm wrong. I'm not sure that it's bad for SD13 to use he/him, or that it's not bad to use he/him. I do have a strong suspicion, though, that there have not been many adults in SD13's life who "take the steering wheel back" from her. I'm praying that maybe this can be a time for that, where SD13 can see that it's not always SD13 calling the shots.

Hearing the C say that based on her experience, SD13 is in this position as a way to manage massive anxiety (versus "true" transgenderism), and then kind of being surprised by SD13 saying "Well just use she/her if you won't use he/him" is leading me down the road of thinking that DH and I should quietly stay firm.

I think I read somewhere that kids don't actually want to be in control of the adults in their lives, despite all outward/verbal manifestations to the contrary. Part of me wonders if it's not kind of scary for SD13 to "see her power" over all these adults.

[Notwendy]

I think it is great that you are open about that you are trying but that sometimes it takes practice.

I know a young person who was born female and I knew them as a female, with a female name. He now identifies as male and changed his name. After knowing someone for many years as "Nancy" ( name is just for example) who is now "Nathan" it takes some practice. I want to honor his request, but it took some time to not slip up due to habit. I'm still working on it.

[Notwendy]

I offered that if SD13 wanted me to share with the teacher that SD13 used he/him, I'd be happy to do that. SD13 said she'd rather do that herself.

I read this again and picked up on this: perhaps your SD would like to be the one to clarify people on the preferred pronoun.

I agree with the C that teens need limits, but also autonomy over some aspects of their lives. Seems to me like a pronoun would be in the category of autonomy, and she'd like to own the process of what other's refer to her by.

With my own BPD mother, autonomy and limits were inconsistent. I think this can create anxiety for a teen. What did create anxiety for me was not ever knowing when my BPD mom would be in a rage or not. "punishments" didn't always fit the "crime" and a small thing could set her off. Your being a stable and consistent parent means a lot.

(I'm using "her" for consistency but if I were speaking to your SD, I'd use the pronoun that I am asked to use).

I think that going along with her pronoun preference and letting her own it is probably a good path for now. I am not an expert,  but I have raised teens and they need to take ownership of who they are. A limit would be "you can't go out till you do your homework". Autonomy is them choosing their clothing, hairstyle, pronoun.

[ForeverDad]

I tried to talk through S13's thoughts to make sure I was tracking: "So, you're thinking that if I'm not using he/him, you'd rather I just use she/her, and not this middle way of [SD13_name]?" And interestingly, that seems to be the case.

What stuck out to me about that interaction was SD13's discomfort with "the middle way", which surprised me. I'm wondering if some of SD13's anxiety about "not knowing" is coming up, where it's almost easier to just "know" that kells76 will be using she/her than to "not know" what kells76 is still thinking about/deciding.

I think I read somewhere that kids don't actually want to be in control of the adults in their lives, despite all outward/verbal manifestations to the contrary. Part of me wonders if it's not kind of scary for SD13 to "see her power" over all these adults.

Sounds like she wants you to be who you are and stick by that.  Sounds like she wants you to be her "rock in the storm" of life, a stability she can use as a reference in her future.

In other words, she validated you to keep on as you see things.  She could see you were dancing around the issue and she wants you to be who you are.  You see her as SD, not SS, she's more than fine with that, to some extent she craves that, do you think?

[kells76]

I think that going along with her pronoun preference and letting her own it is probably a good path for now. I am not an expert,  but I have raised teens and they need to take ownership of who they are. A limit would be "you can't go out till you do your homework". Autonomy is them choosing their clothing, hairstyle, pronoun.

Thanks for the thoughts. Yeah, I remember with my mom, sometimes clothes were a conflict area -- not that I chose trashy/skimpy outfits, but that I wanted to do what "made sense" to me as a grade schooler -- wear my normal clothes as pajamas, or wear pants instead of a dress for Easter. I think I remember those specific instances because I sensed a strong emotional investment from my mom.

So I don't want external presentation areas to become battlegrounds for the kids. Basically we're at "you need to wear clothes" and they should be clean, most of the time (i.e. those are the limits around clothes). SD13 is "showing up" in "boy" clothes which is fine. I remember being there clothes-wise too. Often it's just more practical or comfortable at that age.

If the kids talk about dyeing their hair, I just say "Sounds fun! How much do you think you'll need to save up to make it happen?" 

I think that specifically telling SD13 that she is free to share her pronouns with whoever, whether on her own or if I'm around, and I'll give her space for that, is hopefully a middle ground where she can exercise autonomy while seeing that I am in process/considering my values. But -- the fact that I'm thinking through my values doesn't mean that she has to "pretend" so that we "match" when other people are around (if that makes sense).

You see her as SD, not SS, she's more than fine with that, to some extent she craves that, do you think?

I wonder. I mean, 13 is that age where kids start to try to figure out "what is my identity", and so much of the start of that process is "identity is how other people see you". I remember for me around 13-15 struggling with "what should I even eat?" and looking at what other people were eating to try to figure that out -- instead of tuning in with myself to see "hey, what does kells76 feel like she needs to eat right now". Clothes, too -- I remember picking a couple of girls at an activity to watch and see what they wore, and then purposefully trying to copy their outfits, because they seemed so "cool" and "together", and I thought (subconsciously) that I could have that "I am confident in myself" feeling from mimicking the outside.

So if SD13 is kind of all over the map with "I want people to see me this way" I guess it's right on track, in a way. It is just really interesting that as much as she has this "slightly annoyed" tone about DH and I using she/her, she's not escalating at this point.

She could see you were dancing around the issue and she wants you to be who you are.

I really hope we can send the same message to SD13 -- you be YOU, no matter what we do. I think at Mom's house the message is that "we as a family do one thing, we're all the same, the family has the same set of values". I hope this instead gives SD13 a picture of people calmly sharing different values and staying loyal and supportive of each other.

(If anyone else here needs to have a similar conversation with their step/kids, and is into movies, try "Captain America: Civil War", FYI)

With my own BPD mother, autonomy and limits were inconsistent. I think this can create anxiety for a teen. What did create anxiety for me was not ever knowing when my BPD mom would be in a rage or not. "punishments" didn't always fit the "crime" and a small thing could set her off. Your being a stable and consistent parent means a lot

The pattern with the kids' mom has been that SD13 gets 100% autonomy and 0% limits, a.k.a. golden child (unless it's phrased as "we should convince SD13 to do X" -- the subtle "Hey, I would never tell you what to do or what to feel, but just think about this from this perspective, and are you REALLY sure you want to? I mean, are you SURE?"). S11 gets more 0% autonomy and 100% limits (the scapegoat). So, in a sense, it's kind of like there are limits, but they're never explicit and clear. It all ACTUALLY depends on if Mom and Stepdad feel like they want the kids to do something, but they don't actually come out and say "You need to do X today" or "You need to go on this trip with Dad", it comes out as "well, I can't tell you to go" or "are you sure you don't want to do X?" The kids are supposed to "get" what they're supposed to be doing without Mom doing the work of being direct and clear (and opening herself up to opposition from the kids).

I hope that DH and I being stable and consistent, even in this hot-button area of pronouns, is ultimately structurally what the kids need. Instead of us trying to do the "are you SURE you want to use he/him" thing so that the kids "comply" at our house.

[kells76]

I think something else that is tough about this whole situation is that I feel some fear about how people will respond to what DH and I are doing with SD13.

This is hard to say, but I feel worried that I won't "be accepted" here on the boards because the tack we're taking is so different from what many groups and individuals recommend. I feel a pretty strong pull to "tone down" what I talk about or describe, in case it makes someone... IDK, think poorly of us.

And then layered on top of that is a fear that it's selfish of me to talk about my fears and worries, when I should be focused on SD13. Kind of like, "how could you dare talk about your own worry about being rejected, when you're doing this thing that will make SD13 feel rejected". Or something.

So, working with that. I guess talking about it here is a good step.

[Panda39]

kells,
.
Keep talking there is no judging here. I find it interesting that gender identity and sexual identity comes up fairly frequently here.  I have always been a believer that you are born the way you are but I wonder now if having a parent that doesn't know their own identity has an effect on their kids finding theirs.  Or is it just that these topics are out in the open so the discussions happen more often. 

I appreciate the conversation, neither of my Partner's daughters identify as heterosexual. D22 identifies as PAN sexual and D18 identifies as Lesbian.  Neither is as complicated as gender identity and the physical changes that can involve but the topic is of interest...keep talking it out.

Panda39

[GaGrl]

It is an Iinteresting question when juxtaposed with the BPD element. I believe my stepson is confused or extremely reticent to identify as gay. I am physically/sexually bi-sexual but emotionally bond as heterosexual - that's been interesting to work out.I

Patience is a virtue.

[Notwendy]

Disapproval for the talk on gender identity or for your more conservative views? Personally, I think you should be able to speak your feelings and your position. What I think is clear is that you and your H love this child, and I think she senses it too. You are trying to give her love, limits, stability- and to me, this is important - especially when one parent isn't stable.

I have always been a believer that you are born the way you are but I wonder now if having a parent that doesn't know their own identity has an effect on their kids finding theirs.

Having a BPD mom didn't seem to affect my orientation but to figure out who I was, yes. She may not have been the most desirable role model for me, but other mothers were. My father's family provided the kind of stability you are providing for your SD and I think that made a difference for me. As parents, we aren't perfect- but unconditional love and stability go a long way.

If you are struggling with the gender identity situation, you're human. Having a child "be different from tradition" challenges families- whether it's changing religions, dating someone they don't approve of, whatever, but it seems loving families are capable of working these things out. I know we have to be mindful of the risks and vulnerabilities that LGBTQ children face, but I think that when love is steady and unwavering, it makes a difference. I'm no expert, but as a parent, I didn't do it all perfectly but my kids know they are loved unconditionally, and I think that's a main essential. I think your SD can see that you and H are supportive of her, or him- the essential soul of this person regardless of their identity. I also think this is apparent in your posts.

[worriedStepmom]

I think your SD can see that you and H are supportive of her, or him- the essential soul of this person regardless of their identity. I also think this is apparent in your posts.

I very much agree with this sentiment.

I disagree with some of how you frame this issue, and I'll gently call you out if I see something in your posts that I think could hurt your kid.  Overall, this is a community that takes respect very seriously.  We are all learning from each other, and if you think I or anyone else is being too judgey, please say so.  Tone doesn't always come across well in writing.

[kells76]

Thank you all for chiming in and continuing the conversation.

I find it interesting that gender identity and sexual identity comes up fairly frequently here.

It is interesting. Those aspects of our identity are pretty darn close to the core of who we are; or, are at least one of a few components that feel like the core of our self.

Sometimes I read on other boards here too, and interestingly, spiritual identity comes up a lot on the conflicted board (at least, the spiritual identity of the high-conflict person). That seems like another "close to core" component. I wonder why spiritual identity doesn't come up as much for younger kids? Maybe because developmentally they are more at an "external" identity stage? Thinking back to my younger years   , my "spiritual identity" was closely tied to what my parents did, and in "checking off all the boxes" that were there at the church we went to. Less about which religion it was specifically, and more about perfectly achieving what it meant to be in that church/religion. I could have an identity as a strong, supportive leader who did the right spiritual stuff.

I wonder now if having a parent that doesn't know their own identity has an effect on their kids finding theirs

Yeah, I think the way a parent models having/finding an identity has a big impact on the kids. I think it can be through food/eating, spirituality/religion, political involvement, "being responsible", etc. The emotional weight that a parent puts on their own gender/sexuality I think gets transmitted to the kids, whether explicitly or implicitly.

Looking back, my parents did not seek ultimate or critical identity through their gender or sexuality. With my dad, it was about "do the right thing and be responsible", and with my mom, I think it was "always be loyal to family". So, for me growing up, my own gender/sexuality was kind of left alone to do its thing, while the messages of "identify yourself through your responsibility and loyalty" were huge in my identity.

With the kids' mom, I think a core part of her identity is wrestling with her sexuality in particular and human sexuality in general. Another value I think she has is "I am welcoming to all genders and sexualities". So, because those are the top implicit and explicit messages she is communicating, it makes sense that the kids see "OK, what are the most important values in life? Let's look at Mom and see if she knows" and see what Mom prioritizes and is working with, and decide (maybe tacitly/subconsciously) "gender/sexuality is the top value and identity in life, so I will work with that as I figure out who I am". Kind of like how for me, responsibility and loyalty were the top communicated values, so that was how I started to define myself.

More to come. Thanks again for keeping talking with me.

[Notwendy]

Identity is an interesting topic. Also consider how the parents define a child and what aspects of identity do they value/reinforce. How does a child gain their value in a family.

For my family, value was placed on pleasing/complying with BPD mother- what can we do for her? It wasn't placed on who we were intrinsically. Get good grades- so mother can tell people ( validate her). Obey her, don't upset her...etc. Part of my identity was people pleasing- if others were happy with me then I was OK, and if they weren't then I must be to blame.

My mother had poor boundaries with sexuality both for herself and with us kids. We were not like that and it seemed to bother her that we were less outgoing and less interested in dating than she was. I felt pressure from her to date more. Navigating romantic relationships was difficult for me. Other girls seemed so much more at ease. I think this came from the confusing messages I got at home about my own identity and pressure to do things the way my mother did, which I didn't want to do.

So yes, I think having a BPD mother can influence a child's self image. However, it did not influence my sexual orientation or identity. I knew I was female, didn't question that. However, I wasn't as "feminine" as my mother and so wondered if I was normal or not. My mother was very frilly, wore dresses. I preferred jeans and was more tomboy compared to her but still knew I was female.