Part 2: UBPDgf dumped me today

[RomanticFool]

Mod note: This thread is a continuation of https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=338468.0

It wasn’t empathic but I felt she didn’t listen to me either. So we had the same complaint. She became so unreasonable and abusive in the end that I had to protect myself. So I challenged her version of events because she was constantly gaslighting me. In retrospect, I do wish I’d made her feel heard more but that is still no excuse for physically attacking me and calling me a Narcissist on a daily basis. She was out of control early on and I often challenged her behaviour because it was aggressive.

[formflier]

A few earlier observations from Skip seem pertinent.

You are deep into the break-up / make-up cycling

It appears to me your basic relationship pattern over the last many years and people is pull close and bust apart...pull close (er) and bust apart.

Can you see this point of view?

that each cycle in deepening the divide and the ability to recover

What does "deepening the divide" mean to you?  How do you understand the point Skip was making?

levels of mistreatment is raising (ff adds "on both sides").  She triggers you. You push back, stridently. That trigger's her.

Do you see this pattern?

Remember when you you originally came here, you were in a similar dynamic with your prior gf. What you were saying about her and what she was saying about you is very similar to what is happening now, don't  you think?

I would also add the amount of time energy and detail put into "proving" your partner is (fill in the blank) and that you "had to" respond in a certain way seem similar to me as well.

The amount of time, energy and detail you can put into your own choices and evaluating the positive or negative impact of your choices on your relationships seems very low and similar to your last gf.

Mod note: This thread is a continuation of https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=338468.0

It wasn’t empathic but I felt she didn’t listen to me either.

This is the basic pattern of the relationship and the basic justification for your actions in your relationship.  Do you see this point of view?

I'm hoping you can resist talking about what the other person did or what "caused" you to behave a certain way.  I'm not at all suggesting your descriptions are inaccurate. 

I am suggesting that more accurate details are not helpful for you to look at your relationship patterns. 

I'm hoping you can focus your response on whether or not you see the patterns that others are pointing out to you.

What do you think?

Best,

FF

[RomanticFool]

FF,

These points are crucial to the way I think and live my life. Thanks for highlighting them. What I perceive as the central dilemma in my life with many of my relationships is the issue of standing my ground or being walked over. I'm sure it goes back to my mother. A strong woman who fought her corner when she sensed injustice. The current lady in question also articulated that she has a similar outlook on life. She is from a family of lawyers and told me that she always fights injustice. Let me answer your questions and then try to sum up what I've learnt.

t appears to me your basic relationship pattern over the last many years and people is pull close and bust apart...pull close (er) and bust apart.

Can you see this point of view?

I see in this current instance a function of what I've outlined above. We had a beautiful honeymoon period full of compliments and love-bombing but which was also characterised by my lady pointing out to me that I was a liar, a cheat and untrustworthy in casual interjections into our conversations. At first I laughed them off, after all I was married and she had a right to be suspicious. But when she began referring to me as a narcissist on an almost daily basis I grew tired of the insults and reacted. I see this push/pull cycle very clearly and the ex before this current lady is now a friend and we have had many detailed conversations about our dynamic. Conclusion? When I become verbally 'energised' it makes women want to run. The issue as Skip has continuously pointed out on here was that I was married. My previous ex was also married and so WhatsApp became our means of communcation.  With the most recent lady she hated WhatsApp and in the end refused to communicate on it.Yes I see the pattern, yes I see the issue.

What does "deepening the divide" mean to you?  How do you understand the point Skip was making?

We both became entrenched in our positions and became more focused on perceived injustices and resentments than actually having a relationship. If there is one thing I would change in this whole situation is that I would communicate far less on WhatsApp and ring her. Again, this was an issue of being married. I knew I would eventually lose her and I have. I keyed into all of her insecurities and fears and she did the same with me.

levels of mistreatment is raising (ff adds "on both sides").  She triggers you. You push back, stridently. That trigger's her. Do you see this pattern?

Yes, we both saw the pattern. She kept saying that the relationship was toxic and I kept saying that we could turn it around. I tried very hard to break the pattern. Without blaming anybody I would say that it was always going to be toxic given the situation and how we both reacted to each other. She became overly reactive to me as the relationship progressed. I saw this as devaluation and she saw this as me not listening to her and me being the aggressor.

would also add the amount of time energy and detail put into "proving" your partner is (fill in the blank) and that you "had to" respond in a certain way seem similar to me as well.

The amount of time, energy and detail you can put into your own choices and evaluating the positive or negative impact of your choices on your relationships seems very low and similar to your last gf.

You have to understand the emotional trauma of both of these relationships. The most recent one. I was constantly evaluating my own behaviour and trying hard not to antagonise her. But she was constantly changing emotionally. One minute she would be happy and the next tearing into me about something I've done. I've analysed my own behaviour endlessly both during the relationships and afterwards. I have found that I can hold my tongue for just so long in the face of what I perceive as antagonistic behaviour from my ex gf. I think much of what I did and said at the beginning of the relationship was perceived in a positive way by her and then that same behaviour came to be viewed negatively and as abusive by her. A good example of this was sex. In the beginning of the relationship my ex told me that she wanted sex every day. I would come over in the mornings and we would be intimate. We had wonderful times and played music and were loving towards each other. For me this wasn't just about sex, it was about intimacy and spending quality time together. Then a few months in she started telling me in very stark and provocative language that 'she felt like a prostitute.' I apologised profusely and told her that I loved her. I was utterly shocked and hurt by her sudden change of feelings. Alarm bells were going off in my head because I never want any woman to feel like I'm using them in that way. I told her that if she preferred we could go for a walk in the mornings. But guess what? She objected to me being hurt and said I was selfish and inconsiderate. I did or said nothing other than trying to be understanding to her. But she responded to my body language and perceived it as hostile. The reason I am at pains to point out the whole situation is because it was complex and I also want to prove to myself that it wasn't all my fault. I will always take 50% responsibility in any relationship but if the other person is determined, over a long period of time, to demonise you, no amount of understanding and saying the right thing will appease them. My ex is a highly intelligent feminist who weaponises everything I ever did or said to her. She would later use my hurt as a stick to beat me with and call me an abusive narcissist.

This is the basic pattern of the relationship and the basic justification for your actions in your relationship.  Do you see this point of view?

I'm hoping you can resist talking about what the other person did or what "caused" you to behave a certain way.  I'm not at all suggesting your descriptions are inaccurate.  

I am suggesting that more accurate details are not helpful for you to look at your relationship patterns.  

I'm hoping you can focus your response on whether or not you see the patterns that others are pointing out to you.

What do you think?

When we went on holiday she explained that the previous married man she was involved with drugged and raped her. She had never told me that before and I cried into her shoulder. I told her I was so sorry that that had happened to her and that I totally understood her feelings around any sexual encounters between us. We got so incredibly close on holiday. I was so in love with her. A week later she called me an abusive narcissist.

So what was my part in this relationship? I didn't understand the damage I was dealing with. I didn't behave in an empathic manner from the outset because I found her insulting and hostile at times. She also told me early on that she liked the way I stood up to her and didn't let her get away with anything.

My part is that I reacted emotionally to everything she said or did to me. My part is that I lacked empathy when I stood toe to toe with her during arguments. My part is that I got involved with somebody who was new to AA and who I should have known would have issues. My part is that I shouted at her in front of her daughter once which effectively killed the relationship because she walked out on her marriage when her daughter was 15 months old and lost custody of her. Her entire life was about getting her daughter under her roof. Shouting at her in front of her daughter made her rage at me and she never really forgave me for that. The reason I did that is because she told me that she was going to spend her day with another man after an argument.

I was hostile and volatile. She told me a few months into the relationship that we don't argue well and that I am emotionally volatile. I told her that the reason I am emotionally volatile is because I am reacting to her. We both blamed each other. I should have communicated with her much better than I did. I felt that I should have left my marriage much sooner than I did.

However, in all honesty, whatever I did I now believe would have led me to the same position. This is not to excuse any of my behaviour, but she has untreated bi polar and I suspect BPD traits. I am not blaming her at all but pointing out what I was dealing with and how ill equipped I am emotionally to deal with what she was throwing at me. I think ultimately her assertion that we don't get on is correct. I loved her more than I've ever loved anybody and yet her unreasonable nature, projection and failure to take any responsibility for her own behaviour means that my sense of injustice as mentioned above was pricked and short of morphing into another human being, I was unable to ignore it and focus solely on what I did. That was and is my major failing.

[formflier]

FF,

These points are crucial to the way I think and live my life.
 

However, in all honesty, whatever I did I now believe would have led me to the same position.  

I agree with your first statement...about these things being crucial to how you "think and live" your life.

Do you really believe whatever you did would have led you to the same position?  Can you see how this "thinking" contributes to letting yourself off the hook and "blaming" the other person?

Would it surprise you that I can think of actions you could have taken, regardless of your gf's actions...that would have led to completely different outcomes...guaranteed!.

Best,

FF

[RomanticFool]

No it wouldn’t surprise me. I’m sure you are right. I would like to learn the skills.  As I said before, currentlyI am not emotionally equipped to deal with a woman who has such an erratic emotional life. That’s not letting myself off the hook or blaming her, it’s simply an objective fact. I know intellectually much of what I would need to do; listen to her every word, don’t take any attack on me personally, don’t react emotionally, never show her my own emotional upset. Validate everything she says. In short, walk on eggshells and not be who I really am. I would love not to be this emotional reactive person and be able to keep a damaged woman like her onside, but I just don’t possess the skills. I think as the relationship continued, I’m not sure I would possess the patience to be her emotional caretaker.

I just looked at some of the photos we took on holiday. I see an unhappiness in her. There isn’t a free smile it looks strained and deep down she looks unhappy, I can see it in her eyes. When we started this relationship I thought she was the love of my life. I convinced myself that I was the love of hers because she told me I was. Last Monday she told me that I am not nor ever was the great love of her life. That crushed me. There are many things I love about this woman, but her cruelty and aggression are not things I admire.

Having said all of that, since she reconnected with me on Friday and Saturday on WhatsApp, I can only assume there is a possibility she will do the same again. However, I did sense something changed on Saturday night. My paranoid version is that she had a date with somebody and felt conflicted and was waiting to see if I would talk to her before making a decision. This is based in the fact that she told me many times that she had other options and she would find somebody else if I don’t shape up. The less paranoid version is that she is missing me and going through withdrawal as I am. Despite her apparent cruelty and silence over the weekend she may well contact me again. If she does I would like to do things differently. Not necessarily to reconnect but to avoid further arguing and rancour. The cards are heavily stacked against me. I am dealing with somebody who triggers me and is emotionally volatile herself. It would take a Herculean effort to even get her to talk to me again, let alone meet up. She feels angry at me and I think she wants to punish me for my ‘emotional abuse’ as she sees it. This amounts to me writing to her about how I feel and my pain. She cannot bear to hear about my feelings at all. I would love some help. I’m all ears. Though in my heart of hearts I feel I have lost her now.

[formflier]

  When we started this relationship I thought she was the love of my life. I convinced myself that I was the love of hers because she told me I was. 

What advice were you getting from bpdfamily about this relationship in particular and relationships in general during this time?

Best,

FF

[RomanticFool]

I wasn’t getting any advice. I was still married and it was suggested that it wasn’t a good idea for me to keep coming here. The relationship started off beautifully but quickly deteriorated

[formflier]

I wasn’t getting any advice. I was still married and it was suggested that it wasn’t a good idea for me to keep coming here.  

Perhaps it's a good idea to look back at some of your prior threads.  I seem to recall lots of advice.

Why does this matter?  

I (we at bpdfamily) want the best for you.

Wouldn't it be great to have a stable..fulfilling relationship with an available person?  

One of the things needed to achieve that goal is the ability to self reflect on YOUR decisions and (more importantly) the "reasons" for you deciding.  Then think about the actual results and make changes based on your ACTUAL prior experience and the advice you were getting at the time.

Again...you have a MASSIVE ability to give copious details on the dysfunction of the people you have chosen to have relationships with.  

I hope you can develop an ability to reflect on your own choices, the advice you have taken, the advice you have rejected/ignored/forgotten...and how those things affect the quality of your relationships.

Best,

FF

[Skip]

I would love some help. I’m all ears.

What are you looking for here? Detaching (this is the detaching board)?

[RomanticFool]

Perhaps it's a good idea to look back at some of your prior threads.  I seem to recall lots of advice.

Where do I access my previous threads?

Why does this matter?  

Not sure what you're referring to here.

I (we at bpdfamily) want the best for you.

Thank you. It's been a long, hard and extremely painful road.

Wouldn't it be great to have a stable..fulfilling relationship with an available person?  

The Holy Grail

One of the things needed to achieve that goal is the ability to self reflect on YOUR decisions and (more importantly) the "reasons" for you deciding.  Then think about the actual results and make changes based on your ACTUAL prior experience and the advice you were getting at the time.

It's been suggested to me in SLAA that the nature of the way I fall in love is addictive. I guess it's what we on here call love-bombing or limerence. I think once I become engaged in this process I form an unhealthy attachment and then I lose all ability to walk away. I become co-dependent and powerless over the other person. Initially I have the power because they are equally attracted and in the case of my most recent lady she told me that she liked the fact I didn't take any nonsense from her. That very thing then became the stick she used to beat me with. What she saw as strength in the beginning of the relationship she came to see as abusive controlling and manipulative behaviour later. The reason I'm always so completely befuddled when this stuff happens is because I never feel that my behaviour changes. I'm the same person from beginning to end.

There was a red flag at the beginning of my most recent relationship. I found her pushy at the beginning of the relationship and when I said I was going to leave my wife she immediately invited me to live with her. When I mentioned the financial side of things would be difficult, she did a complete 180 and said, well if you live here you'd have to pay rent. The red flag was the speed with which we had fallen for each other and were making a very fast decision about living together and then she changed her tune around money. I knew immediately that the relationship was not a reliable one from the outset. What I should have done is walk away there and then but I was already besotted with her. Another red flag was when I told my wife (two weeks into the relationship) that I had met somebody I had a crush on and my wife said she would move out of the family home, I got upset and cried on the shoulder of my affair partner. She was sympathetic initially but after a few days of that asked me if I was going to be upset all the time if I split up from my wife. That should have been a massive red flag there and then. Perhaps in the future I might enter into a more detailed discussion and tell her that getting divorced would be financially and emotionally draining and if she wasn't able to deal with that it's best not to get involved.

Again...you have a MASSIVE ability to give copious details on the dysfunction of the people you have chosen to have relationships with.  hope you can develop an ability to reflect on your own choices, the advice you have taken, the advice you have rejected/ignored/forgotten...and how those things affect the quality of your relationships.
 

The only reason I do that is because I spent a year being told that everything was my fault and that I am an abusive narcissist. I say these things to prove to myself that it wasn't all my issues that caused the break up. It's not about avoiding responsibility for my part, but rather to acknowledge that I was involved with somebody who was just as emotionally volatile as myself therefore I don't have to beat myself up on a daily basis...or worse.

I try not to reject any advice. Perhaps had I been coming on here regularly from the outset of the new relationship I would be in a better situation than I am now. It is heartbreaking to know that somebody I adore has turned away from me because I didn't take the time to develop the skills to deal with her issues. On the other hand perhaps I've also saved myself a world of pain by getting dumped now. Hard to say which one is better. All I know is that I feel empty, bereft and miserable with my beautiful lady.

[RomanticFool]

What are you looking for here? Detaching (this is the detaching board)?

I'd love another go around the mulberry bush with her, but I think that's unlikely now. As you said in your previous post the more we go into this break up/make up cycle, the more damaged the relationship becomes. I think she has now decided that enough is enough.

I would like to become better at dealing with provocation without reacting in an overly emotional way. I would like to be better at validating somebody who doesn't feel heard and also better at self-soothing when I feel under attack.

My way of dealing with these difficult relationships has caused me an immense amount of pain. If I ever meet somebody with either NPD or BPD traits again, I'd to be able to be better at handling the situation.

[Skip]

I'd love another go around the mulberry bush with her, but I think that's unlikely now. As you said in your previous post the more we go into this break up/make up cycle, the more damaged the relationship becomes. I think she has now decided that enough is enough.

You may get another "bite at the apple". The big question is what would be different? This relationship is not working for either of you. You both look at it as too bad to stay, too good to leave. When the roller coaster is down, you are here, when is up, you are gone - but the same narrative keeps playing out.

What keeps you in, RM? Passionate sex? Don't you need more?

I would like to become better at dealing with provocation.
I would like to become better at not over-reacting in an overly emotional way.
I would like to be better at validating somebody who doesn't feel heard would like to be better at self-soothing when I feel under attack.

This is a good starting point for your future relationships...

My way of dealing with these difficult relationships has caused me an immense amount of pain. If I ever meet somebody with either NPD or BPD traits again, I'd to be able to be better at handling the situation.

It HAS caused you a lot of pain.

I think if you ever meet someone with those traits, you should steer clear. I think this is a big part of the problem. You seek passionate, high risk takers, who are not making wise decisions in life in general. That exciting, throw-care-to-the-wind, raw, passionate vixen may be hot in bed - but she has a lot of emotional baggage. They all do.

Your last relationship was destructive to you, and your partner, and her husband and child. This relationship has been damaging to you, her, and your wife.

Your situation makes it hard to attract a more stable women.

Is the answer to learn better skills to handle the "passionate vixen with a lot of emotional baggage", or to "make yourself more attractive, to a passionate and stable women?"

I often tell people her to find someone with greater emotional stability after a "BPD" relationship. Our pointers get bent in a toxic relationship and the best thing is a healthy partner to help us find "normal" again.

[formflier]

To get to prior posts.  

Click on your name on the left side.  Then towards the bottom of that page click on "show the last posts" of this member.  The start looking through your history.

The only reason I do that is because I spent a year being told that everything was my fault and that I am an abusive narcissist.

Most of the time the "reasons" I do things are very complicated and usually when I find myself making an argument that the "only" reason I did (fill in the blank)...it's because there is something uncomfortable that I don't want to examine or reflect on.

Does that ring true with your experience?

I say these things to prove to myself that it wasn't all my issues that caused the break up. It's not about avoiding responsibility for my part, but rather to acknowledge that I was involved with somebody who was just as emotionally volatile as myself therefore I don't have to beat myself up on a daily basis...or worse.

 me because I didn't take the time to develop the skills to deal with her issues.

I'm glad you are not looking to avoid responsibility on your part.

Are you ready to have a conversation about how you approach relationships.  The trick is to spend 90% of the time talking about you and your decisions without big discussions about how it was the "only" thing you could do.  

It's rare that people only have one choice.

It's also unhelpful to try and compare people or compare yourself to others, regardless of their emotional volatility.

The key is to compare yourself to the "you" that you have been, the "you" that you are at the moment and the "you" that you would want to be in the future.

That can be done with rarely mentioning someone else, even if they have BPDish tendencies and are volatile.

Best,

FF

[RomanticFool]

You may get another "bite at the apple". The big question is what would be different? This relationship is not working for either of you. You both look at it as too bad to stay, too good to leave. When the roller coaster is down, you are here, when is up, you are gone - but the same narrative keeps playing out.

What keeps you in, RM? Passionate sex? Don't you need more?

I think she's gone now. There was a finality about the email she sent me ending the relationship and there has been no response from her since her very monosyllabic response on Saturday after she temporarily reconnected to WhatsApp. I sent her an email today with a photo of us together from our holiday reminding her that this coming Saturday would have been our 1 year anniversary together. No response. I think she is gone.

What would be different? Probably nothing because she is convinced that it's me who has to change and towards the end of the relationship she refused to engage in any conversation about anything to do with the relationship. She cycled past me in the local park and didn't stop just before she ended the relationship and now she is not communicating at all. She told me at the beginning of the relationship that she moves on quickly when relationships end. In the extremely unlikely event that she ever contacts me again, I think it will be connected with what I do for a living but even that doesn't seem likely at present.

This relationship wasn't just about sex, even though she often accused me of precisely that. I was in love with her and I enjoyed spending time with her and loved the way her mind works. I miss her idiosyncrasies and spending time with her. Sure I miss her physically but not as much as I miss her presence. Even though many people have told me that it's love and sex addiction to me it was the real thing. However, it's also clear that she was never as connected to me as I was to her.

It HAS caused you a lot of pain.

I think if you ever meet someone with those traits, you should steer clear. I think this is a big part of the problem. You seek passionate, high risk takers, who are not making wise decisions in life in general. That exciting, throw-care-to-the-wind, raw, passionate vixen may be hot in bed - but she has a lot of emotional baggage. They all do.

Your last relationship was destructive to you, and your partner, and her husband and child. This relationship has been damaging to you, her, and your wife.

Your situation makes it hard to attract a more stable women.

Is the answer to learn better skills to handle the "passionate vixen with a lot of emotional baggage", or to "make yourself more attractive, to a passionate and stable women?"

I often tell people her to find someone with greater emotional stability after a "BPD" relationship. Our pointers get bent in a toxic relationship and the best thing is a healthy partner to help us find "normal" again.

Seeking the high intensity passion at the beginning of relationships is what love and sex addiction is all about. You are right about emotional baggage. It's been utterly devastating to realise I didn't mean to her what she meant to me. As soon as I wanted my emotional needs met she turned away.

I would like to meet somebody healthy next time but also make sure I don't go wading in on another high intensity relationship with another unhealthy woman.

[formflier]

What would be different? Probably nothing because she is convinced that it's me who has to change 

But if you changed...things would be different...right?  With her or another relationship.

Do you want this or your next relationship to be like your last few? 

Best,

FF

[RomanticFool]

I'm glad you are not looking to avoid responsibility on your part.

Are you ready to have a conversation about how you approach relationships.  The trick is to spend 90% of the time talking about you and your decisions without big discussions about how it was the "only" thing you could do.  

It's rare that people only have one choice.

It's also unhelpful to try and compare people or compare yourself to others, regardless of their emotional volatility.

The key is to compare yourself to the "you" that you have been, the "you" that you are at the moment and the "you" that you would want to be in the future.

That can be done with rarely mentioning someone else, even if they have BPDish tendencies and are volatile.

I am ready to talk about how I approach relationships. When I met this woman she was one month sober in AA. I was unhappy in my marriage and thought i'd met somebody special. I wanted her so much at the beginning that I told her I would leave my marriage and I almost did. I wanted the big love of my life and I wanted it there and then.

My AA sponsor tells me that my core beliefs are faulty. He has known me for thirty years and tells me that this follows a similar pattern as previous relationships and that my belief that I can have a high intensity, sexually charged relationship with the perfect woman and expect it to last forever is my major mess up. He thinks I'm addicted to the beginning stages of relationships.

I think that while I get hooked in these relationships early on it's more than just addiction. It's a desire to find a soulmate who I can share my interests and love with. It's not just about high intensity sex (certainly not at 56) but it's also about companionship but where intimacy is important. The latest woman was very tactlie and passionate at the beginning and intermittently when we reconnected after the break up/make up cycle. She then withdrew that intimacy (reinstating it briefly on holiday) but ultimately I was no longer what she wanted and she pulled away. I am always devastated when women do this and I seem to have no agency to protect myself other than emotionally reacting and berating them for hurting me. I can see with hindsight that my abandonment fears make me play my heart in the push/pull if I feel somebody is going to hurt me. Given that this woman was emotionally cruel and avoidant when riled, it was always going to be a volatile relationship. This has been a pattern with me over the years when I fall hard for somebody. She told me that at the start of the relationship that she loves fiercely. She also hates fiercely too!

[RomanticFool]

But if you changed...things would be different...right?  With her or another relationship.

Do you want this or your next relationship to be like your last few? 

Yes, i need to change my emotional reactivity.

[formflier]

Yes, i need to change my emotional reactivity.

Is that it?

When you went back and looked at your old posts...did you find some of the advice you were given before?


Best,

FF

[RomanticFool]

Yes I found this which reduced me to tears: Nothing has changed for me in two years.
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=309464.msg12867175#msg12867175

Excerpt
You might consider that the way you interact with the women you fall for, might in some way mirror the way you interacted with your parents (probably your mother) in your youth.

So in a sense, the kind of women you are selecting (consciously or unconsciously) is an effort to work through the pains of your upbringing.

Me: “Yes I had considered that. I think you are right about my mother, she was a very strong, domineering woman with constant complaints about she never got enough attention.”

Excerpt
One antidote to break this cycle is to find a way to work through that pain.  Another antidote is to make a conscious choice of no longer selecting these kinds of women -- and that would require selecting women who are not this way which can be daunting in that it will be way outside your comfort/familiarity zone.

Me: “I thought I had broken the mould when I met my wife but it turns out she has intimacy issues and isn't massively interested in my life either. Go figure.”

Excerpt
Would you consider finding a codependents anonymous group?  You might get lucky and find out through contacts about other more assessable mental health resources.

“I attend AA meetings and Have attended CODA meetings and also SLAA, but I found both of these groups have less fellowship than AA. I might actually go back to CODA and see if anybody knows anything about where to get cheap therapy.”

Excerpt
It's pretty normal to emulate the behaviors of our parents.  Though, when they are disordered, our reasons for acting in similar manners might be a bit different (unless we're also disordered).

If I had to guess, you might be more like to have a fear of intimacy rather than a fear of abandonment.

Me: “This is a revelation to me. If it is fear of intimacy it is doing a great job of disguising itself as fear of abandonment. I have suffered so profoundly in my life from being dumped in relationships that I don't ever want to be in this position again. I think with my borderline is the first time I've ever walked away from someone who I am deeply in love with because I knew it wasn't healthy. That gives you some idea of the pain I've been in.”

Excerpt
You see, even though you see it as a fear of abandonment: you might be unconsciously selecting partners who are "incapable" of intimacy (for different reasons).  And such partners are the most likely to abandon you.  But if you did not have a fear of intimacy, then you might be more likely (or willing) to consider courtship with a partner who is actually capable of intimacy.

In my experience, what fear of intimacy looked like was the people I dated who were perhaps capable of intimacy, never "felt right" for me.  The only people who "felt right" or where I found good "chemistry" were always the people whose psychology was (unconsciously) familiar to me.  And it turned out (not by coincidence) that they were also disordered.  

One of the mantras I lived by was "face your fears and choose the unfamiliar in order to avoid the hell of the familiar."

Me: “I have certainly been abandoned by the ones who have had problems with intimacy and I have abandoned the ones that didn't. This seems to back up what you are saying here. It is shocking to me that I have caused myself so much pain in this way if this is true.”

Excerpt
Maybe they are NPD traits, maybe not.  You just need to pay attention when your emotions seem disproportionate to you actual situation.  If you find yourself over reacting to a situation, chances are it is because the situation resonates with some other deeper memory.

Me: “Dead right again. I certainly have triggers around self esteem and being abandoned by somebody I have a strong attachment to. Is it possible this is the same for all men if they have found a beautiful woman though? Us men think with our penises most of the time (OK I speak for myself) and finding a woman one could see themselves sleeping with into later life is what we all seek isn't it?”

Excerpt
Someone who is already married is technically unavailable (if not incapable) for intimacy because that intimacy is limited by current attachment.  I think this fear of intimacy is why some people select unavailable (emotionally or otherwise) partners.

Me: “Now this is the nub of it. In my mind I have kept seeing this woman for so long because I have a strong physical, psychological and perhaps even spiritual (don't laugh) attraction to her. If she wasn't beautiful and sexy I don't think we'd be having this conversation. So is it fear of intimacy, or low self esteem at work because I don't think I could ever get anybody this good again, and so I accept her unavailability?”

[formflier]

Yes I found this which reduced me to tears: Nothing has changed for me in two years.

   

Let's stay at "high level"...30,000 foot view for a little bit.  Can you see decisions points..turning points that kept you on the "same relationship road"?

What can you tell us about those turning points?

Best,

FF

[RomanticFool]

The truth is, the way I approached the most recent relationship was a little out of character. I was playing piano before an AA meeting and she came right over and sat next to me. She was unboundaried and tactile. I was immediately attracted to her and pursued her. I don’t normally pursue women in that way. She also had a cancer scare at the time which thankfully turned out to be benign but she had to have an operation which I supported her through. We both talked about how the relationship was founded on solid ground of mutual attraction and care.

When the relationship started becoming toxic, I didn’t understand why. I felt she was behaving unreasonably towards me and I would often leave her house if she was difficult with me. Sometimes she was shouty and aggressive to my face. Initially when I left her house she would cry and bombard me with phone calls and emails and I usually went back and apologised. She told me that behaviour triggered her abandonment fears and that I reminded her of her mother. I asked her not to keep criticising my character all the time as it was making me feel bad. I kept reassuring her that I was going to leave my marriage and that I wanted to be with her. I intended on making good on that promise. Later on when the pattern continued she stopped calling me back and started ignoring me for days at a time instead. The silent treatment was a horrible and powerful weapon which she used up until the end.

One night during one of these push/pull arguments she physically attacked me and it changed things in my mind. I saw all of her damage coming at me and wasn’t sure if leaving my marriage was such a good idea anymore. We talked about the situation and I said that we needed to be kinder to each other. The problem was that she was so up and down emotionally that she would still say hurtful things to me and call me a Narcissist and saying my walking out was abusive. I said I only walked out because I didn’t want to argue in her flat as she shouted and I was worried about her neighbours. She denied she shouted and said I was always the one who raised his voice.

We carried on like this for a while hoping that the situation would resolve itself through better understanding and then one night she punched me in the face and I threw her on an armchair to calm her down. I was ready to leave the relationship and walked out of her house. I then realised that I had left my mobile phone in her house and had to come back. She let me in and we made up and ended up going to the cinema that night but the relationship was effectively doomed. This all happened about four months into the relationship. Had I walked away then I may have been able to salvage some sense of self respect but I was already hooked on her and needed her emotionally. The relationship ebbed and flowed from there but I had seen her violence and we were never truly right with each other since that.

[formflier]

  I was playing piano before an AA meeting and she came right over and sat next to me. 

This seems to be the "close up view"...lots of details.  You have a MASSIVE ability to describe the other person in your relationship in great..very granular detail. 

I can't imagine more details will help  I do believe a 30,000 foot discussion about your choices and your perceptions will likely help you gain insight.

Can we try that?  Several posts at the 30,000 foot level.

Best,

FF

[RomanticFool]

I have been ruled by my impulses in life. I feel overwhelmed when a beautiful woman finds me attractive. I am often already straight into fantasy mode when an exquisite woman shows interest. At 56 I don’t get many offers and when someone who I find ticks my boxes of what I want/need in a relationship I will show my attraction. It’s never easy for me to show a woman I am interested such is my fear of rejection.

When a woman feels familiar, as this one did, I immediately launch full speed ahead into the love-bombing phase. I love the high intensity feelings at the beginning of relationships if it is reciprocated as it makes me feel whole. I love to feel wanted/needed/desired. When the woman is intelligent, attractive and high quality it also makes me feel slightly out of control. In this case the same feelings were present in her and so the jealousies, insecurities and overwhelming limerence of the early stages were particularly intense. This is the same as taking a drug I guess but I never took a substance which made me feel emotionally ‘fixed.’ Add to that the summer of last year and all of the places we visited and things we did together it seemed idyllic to me.

What usually happens with me is when things start to go awry and feelings shift or change in the other party, I become confused and frightened that it’s too good to be true. Of course it’s always too good to be true and then my choices are often about keeping the other person onside. If there are arguments or bad feeling, I often try to shut these down either by reassurance or meeting fire with fire. It often works in the early stages because many of the women I have experience of see strength as a real character asset. My ex was never happier than when I was doing ‘real man’ things like building her IKEA wardrobe (she was particularly attentive that day) or taking control of dinner or household chores and making it all look easy. I was able to make myself indispensable to her for a while which almost made up for the fact that I couldn’t spent nights with her due to being married.

Once the relationship sours my choices are often limited. I constantly try to appease the woman and reassure her of my genuine, honest nature and tell her how much I love her. This is never a conscious manipulation but often a desperate attempt to stop them rejecting me. As I write this I feel pain.

Once they pull away my emotional life falls apart. I am like a lonely abandoned child with no ability to self soothe. I try to get them to reverse their rejection which leads to pain and humiliation and my friends always tell me to stop giving the woman all of my power and to protect myself. I never feel able to. I need the ‘fix’ of my emotional and sexual equal to such a degree that without it I feel helpless and can’t function properly, though I have to maintain a facade at work. I am constantly empty and bereft and I feel the withdrawal intensely and devastatingly. In this case I’ve felt suicidal and actually planned how I was going to do it six weeks ago when she first rejected me. On that occasion the email bombarding worked after three weeks and she came back - albeit an angrier and more accusatory version of her. On this occasion I have limited my contact with her because I feel there will be no reversal this time around.

That pattern is how my intense relationships usually occur. It can take me years to get over the pain and suffering and if I ever hear about them or, God help me, see them, I am in deep deep emotional agony.

[formflier]

Is this something you would like to change?

Best,

FF

[RomanticFool]

I think I have to change. It’s brought me nothing but pain.

[formflier]

I think I have to change. It’s brought me nothing but pain.

.

Perhaps that is true...but that's not the question.

Is this something you would like to change?

Pause for a minute. 

Think about someone you care about.  Think about that person doing something because they "had to"...and think about that person doing something "because they decided to"

Can you see the difference?

Best,

FF

[Skip]

Can we try that?  Several posts at the 30,000 foot level.

Taking one step back. I think this suggestion would help, RM. I might add that I believe that part of what pains you is the narrative that you have adopted as reality... it tends to focus very narrowly and on her difficult behavior and your feelings and it skips over the big picture, entirely.

The truth is, the way I approached the most recent relationship was a little out of character. I was playing piano before an AA meeting and she came right over and sat next to me. She was unboundaried and tactile. I was immediately attracted to her and pursued her. I don’t normally pursue women in that way. She also had a cancer scare at the time which thankfully turned out to be benign but she had to have an operation which I supported her through. We both talked about how the relationship was founded on solid ground of mutual attraction and care.

When the relationship started becoming toxic, I didn’t understand why. I felt she was behaving unreasonably towards me and I would often leave her house if she was difficult with me. Sometimes she was shouty and aggressive to my face. Initially when I left her house she would cry and bombard me with phone calls and emails and I usually went back and apologised. She told me that behaviour triggered her abandonment fears and that I reminded her of her mother. I asked her not to keep criticising my character all the time as it was making me feel bad. I kept reassuring her that I was going to leave my marriage and that I wanted to be with her. I intended on making good on that promise. Later on when the pattern continued she stopped calling me back and started ignoring me for days at a time instead. The silent treatment was a horrible and powerful weapon which she used up until the end.

One night during one of these push/pull arguments she physically attacked me and it changed things in my mind. I saw all of her damage coming at me and wasn’t sure if leaving my marriage was such a good idea anymore. We talked about the situation and I said that we needed to be kinder to each other. The problem was that she was so up and down emotionally that she would still say hurtful things to me and call me a Narcissist and saying my walking out was abusive. I said I only walked out because I didn’t want to argue in her flat as she shouted and I was worried about her neighbours. She denied she shouted and said I was always the one who raised his voice.

We carried on like this for a while hoping that the situation would resolve itself through better understanding and then one night she punched me in the face and I threw her on an armchair to calm her down. I was ready to leave the relationship and walked out of her house. I then realised that I had left my mobile phone in her house and had to come back. She let me in and we made up and ended up going to the cinema that night but the relationship was effectively doomed. This all happened about four months into the relationship. Had I walked away then I may have been able to salvage some sense of self respect but I was already hooked on her and needed her emotionally. The relationship ebbed and flowed from there but I had seen her violence and we were never truly right with each other since that.

It would really help to rewrite this. It will also be painful, but a good painful. We can't make good decisions weak or incomplete assessment of the reality in which we are trying to affect change.

Here is a draft - my details are likely off, but you get he gist - and you can refine this.

I emotionally abandoned my marriage a few years in and invested all my emotions in a 10 year, long-distance affair with a married women who I knew before I got married. I was emotionally unavailable to my wife and she coped by creating an independent life within the marriage. We co-existed amicably, were companions, but we were not emotionally close or intimate or sexually involved. I slept in another bedroom.

I lived this double life for a decade. I mistook the escapism and sexual fantasy of an affair as being love. The affair became toxic as I pushed/pulled for "more face/sex time" and my partner found herself in a situation where her "escape (affair)" from her day-to-day struggles with her husband and her child evolved into another struggle - with me. We both struggled to cope and treated each other in very unhealthy ways - she used silent treatment as a defense against my aggressiveness and to cope. I used withdrawal as a defense and to "get my way". She was suicidal at one point. It took a year of "breaking up" , over and over and over, before she finally ended it.

I struggled with feeling alone and was sexually frustrated. I drifted. Tried to connect with other women. Nothing panned out. Probed my wife a bit to see if she could step it up sexually. No spark. Really couldn't find the motivation or a handle to rekindle the marriage.

I met a local girl at AA who and we jumped head first into a sexual affair. There was openness between us about our mental/emotional struggles, history of substance abuse, etc. The sex was great. In very short order, I thought she was the one. The sexual fantasy was alive again. It was a salve for my wounds from my previous failed affair.

We were both reckless, unrealistic, and took huge risks. She connected with a married man (this rarely ends well, in life). I told my wife I loved someone else and blew up my home life. I said I was divorcing but then didn't file for divorce as I said I would to my new girl, there was always a  reason.

Neither of us have a healthy relationship model or instincts to follow. Our baggage from the past has permeated the relationship.We have both fallen back on our unhealthy habits and the new affair is now cycling like the prior affair - breakup- makeup. There are a lot of triggering and unhealthy reactions. We both think the problem is the other person.  

What do you think? Any truth here? Can you tune this narrative in? Make the changes it needs to make it real for you?  

[I Am Redeemed]

Hi RF

Have you done the fourth step with your AA sponsor? Do you think it would help to use that personal inventory framework for self reflection of your own patterns and behaviors in these relationships?

[RomanticFool]

Here's my version:

I was never in an emotionally fulfilling relationship and probably should not have got married, but got swept along with the wedding plans despite telling my wife to be that we needed to sort out our intimacy issues. We didn't do that and a few years into the marriage I invested all my emotions in a 10 year, long-distance affair with a married woman who I knew before I got married. I was emotionally unavailable to my wife and she coped by creating an independent life within the marriage. We co-existed amicably, were companions, but we were not emotionally close or intimate or sexually involved. I slept in another bedroom.

I lived this double life for about six years. I mistook the escapism and sexual fantasy of an affair as being love. The affair became toxic as I pushed/pulled for "more face/sex time" and my partner found herself in a situation where her "escape (affair)" from her day-to-day struggles with her husband and grown up children, one of whom was living at home and showing signs of extreme addiction, evolved into another struggle - with me. We both struggled to cope and treated each other in very unhealthy ways - she used silent treatment as a defense against my aggressiveness and to cope. I used withdrawal as a defense and to "get my way". She was suicidal at one point. It took a year of "breaking up" , over and over and over, before she finally ended it.

I struggled with feeling alone and was sexually frustrated. I drifted on. Tried to connect with other women. Nothing panned out. Probed my wife a bit to see if she could step it up sexually. No spark. Really couldn't find the motivation or a handle to rekindle the marriage.

I met a local woman at AA who I was drawn to and we jumped head first into a sexual affair. There was openness between us about our mental/emotional struggles, history of substance abuse, etc. The sex was great. In very short order, I thought she was the one. The sexual fantasy was alive again. It was a salve for my wounds from my previous failed affair. It was also the emotional intensity of the love which drew me to her of which sex seemed to be the expression. I felt a strong love for her at the beginning and it has endured for me to this day.

We were both reckless, unrealistic, and took huge risks. She connected with a married man (this rarely ends well, in life). I told my wife I loved someone else and blew up my home life. I said I was divorcing but then didn't file for divorce as I said I would to my new girl, there was always a  reason. I really wanted to follow through with my promise to her but I kept seeing red flags in her behaviour and I didn't think she would support me in the emotional side of my marriage break up. There were also huge financial implications which I don't think the new woman would have been understanding about. So I delayed my marriage break up.

Neither of us have a healthy relationship model or instincts to follow, although she told me at the beginning that she has only ever had healthy relationships. Our baggage from the past has permeated the relationship.We have both fallen back on our unhealthy habits and the new affair has now cycled like the prior affair - breakup- makeup. There are a lot of triggering and unhealthy reactions. We both think the problem is the other person. Today would have been our one year anniversary had she not ended the relationship two weeks ago. I feel that I will always love her.

[Skip]

This is good, RF. It lays the foundation to start understanding your feelings here, how you got to where you are, and how to get to where you want to be.

You can change the trajectory of your life. It may seem daunting. It won't happen over night. It is not as far off as you fear it may be.

That is the good news.

The not-so-good news is that you will have to make some hard and painful decisions. You have to find yourself. Find your masculinity. Find your integrity.  All this has been lost in 20 years of struggles with substances, unhealthy sexual attractions, affairs, and a bland - detached marriage. You have to break away from this "stuff".

The hardest may be to preserver without a "love interest" for a time (your addiction)... and stand on you own legs and build the strength and perspective for healthier future relationships.

If I could pass on a small bit of advice to start this journey it is this:

Love is not a byproduct or a derivative of exotic or fantastic sex. Fantastic sex is just fantastic sex. Meaningful physical and emotional intimacy is a byproduct or a derivative of love.

Love is not about what someone does for you. Love is about investing yourself in another persons life. Respecting them. Giving to them. Finding fulfillment in supporting and enhancing their meaning of a good life. And it is letting the love flow back in a time and a way they want to express it. As a man in a relationship, we should seek to better understand what giving is and do it in a way that motivates our partner to grow in their ability to love and give back. When it starts to flow back to you from your partner, you will know that you have a love relationship.

This is something FF has shared with members before.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. . .

Have you had this with you current girlfriend?
Have you had this in life, ever?
Would you like this life?
Would you give up "sex first" and "drama heavy" relationship style for it?