I'm afraid he will wear me down and get his way again

[snowglobe]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339807.30

So..what's to worry about now?  He earned it back.  You used boundaries.  You live in a mansion.  

Doesn't it sound to me like this experience was a positive thing.  Each of you learned a lesson and are better for it.

What am I missing here?

Best,

FF

There is a high cost to me emotionally for maintaining the boundaries. They get pushed and tested unexpectedly and each time with a growing force. If he could get the access to our homey from the house, he would reinvest it again in stock market. We lost all of the saving in 2008. With this new recession looming at us he is already cutting my allowances to invest in the stock market. I remember how it ended last time with him threatening to commit suicide And cussing G-d. I’m afraid that just like with the house he will wear me down and get his way. He always does

[snowglobe]

I am going to jump on this one, pardon my size eights FF.

this is the same point, I was trying to make, from a different angle.

Snowglobe you believe the world is unsafe and a jungle and you need to always be on high alert.

and in a way your belief helps create that fact.

your family had a financial down turn,  your husband gambled away money.    but it felt, and for very real reasons, it felt to you like all the safety and security and stability were gone.

but that wasn't 100% accurate.    it might have had some basis in fact but your fears, and your heightened need for security took over and it felt like the world was ending.    looking back with 20/20 hindsight... all the safety wasn't really gone was it?

We still had the house, true, which kept us afloat for a while

[Notwendy]

I can relate a bit to what Ducks wrote.

My mother's spending drove my father in to debt when I was a teen. The tension in the home was apparent. I recall asking him for a new dress- there must have been some school event I wanted it for. I had a very modest wardrobe, mostly a couple pairs of jeans and some sweaters. He blew up at me for asking.

We weren't wealthy but we were not poor either. My mother had a closet full of designer clothing and shoes, and yet, he yelled at me for wanting a new dress.

Security for me wasn't the mansion or the fancy cars. It was for my children to be able to attend college ( modestly- a state school is fine). I wanted them to be able to have clothing they felt confident in- it didn't need to be fancy. What did this really mean to me- that I wanted them to feel they were valued, as I didn't feel valued. If Dad had bought me a new dress, I would have felt special to him, but only BPD mother was treated as if she was special.

When I met my H we were both in school. Then we began working at about the same pay. However, as we agreed on, I cut back my hours to raise the kids and he advanced in his career. Then, he began to spend any extra in his paycheck on fancy things for himself while I was being frugal. Suddenly he had the fancy clothes, car, while I was still in jeans and driving my old car.

How triggering is this? Shades of my mother and the economic discrepancy I grew up with.


 
But he's not my mother and thankfully not like her. We didn't go into debt. The kids are able to attend college. If one of them wanted something and asked my H, he didn't yell at them and often provided it if it were needed and he could afford it.

I read somewhere that we tend to pair up with people enough like our parents that we can replay our family issues with them, but different enough from our parents that we have the opportunity to grow and resolve them. Until we do, we seem to have some drive to repeat the pattern.

We can grow emotionally from these experiences and this is the key to dealing with the issues we had in our FOOs. The key is not to find someone else that we think can do it. We may think by marrying someone they can somehow resolve the hurt from our childhood. I hoped I would find someone with whom I could feel I was special to him, but he didn't buy me a new dress, he bought himself new clothes. This is exactly the situation I needed to work on.

I tried to do what he did- buy something nice, or ask him to buy me something nice, and he did. But it didn't really solve what I thought it would. I realize that something external can't do that. Yes, I am grateful that he has been generous with the children and they have what they need to succeed. But my need for security is something only I can work on- because it is my need, and there isn't any knight in shining armor to do that.

Snowglobe, you married the perfect person to work on your childhood fears with. He's not solving them for you- he's created the situation where you are being shown your fears -- so you can work on them. I know it's not easy to think of this as an opportunity but in a way, it is one. With help you can do this. I had counseling and 12 step groups and a sponsor and I think the work is worth it.

I don't look to my H to soothe my own childhood issues. This also takes a weight off the relationship. If he buys something expensive, I realize that isn't about me. Unlike my mother, he didn't drive us into debt, the kids feel loved and secure.

Your father used money to punish your mother, and he also abandoned you. But your H is still here with you all. He bought your D a car. He has his issues, he isn't a saint but he also isn't abandoning you all so far. Working on your fears rather than looking to him to do that might lead to some positive changes for you and also your family.

[formflier]

There is a high cost to me emotionally for maintaining the boundaries. They get pushed and tested unexpectedly and each time with a growing force. If he could get the access to our homey from the house, he would reinvest it again in stock market. We lost all of the saving in 2008. With this new recession looming at us he is already cutting my allowances to invest in the stock market. I remember how it ended last time with him threatening to commit suicide And cussing G-d. I’m afraid that just like with the house he will wear me down and get his way. He always does

I don't think this asked the question that I asked. 
Are you aware of high performing people or businesses that have not suffered financial downturns, or even disasters?

Granted, most of them don't advertise those heavily, because they would rather focus on the "good news".

Can you think a bit and help me understand how what you answers relates to the question I asked.  What emotions did those questions uncover?

Best,

FF

[snowglobe]

Ff and Ducks,
Thank you for making the same point in several different ways, I do understand what you are trying to say.
He didn’t take the money to casino, it wise unwise business decision. Then again most of his decisions are impulsive and not thought out. It’s get rich fast scheme. Time after time after time. You are pointing my attention into direction when he wins, I too reap the benefits of his hard labour. That may be true as it may, but I don’t describe the other 80% of the investments that I go out of my way to stop. Then as the time passes they fail, not a single one I made him pass on made any sense. Does he learn to listen to me? No! When he got into bitcoin business I helped him find the investors, restructured our family budget and borrowed against the property to make it happen. I was involved in logistical operation as well. If I wasn’t legally married to him, one could say I was the partner in his endeavour. I am not taking the credit for his achievements. He is in fact genius in my books. I work like a filter, sifting through ideas and supporting him on the ones that make logical sense. When he does not have the means to complete the task I find the resources until he is able to stand on his own. What I do feel is being bone tired of keeping the boundaries and dealing with his crazies. It’s only morning and I have a lot of work to accomplish, yet all I can think about is crawling in bed and shutting this world off

[formflier]

Please go fix yourself another of your favorite morning beverage.  Some deep breathing.

Did you really stop him from doing all these things.  Do you have that level of control over him?

When you were doing all that working controlling him, or attempting to, who was looking at for you?

Best,

FF

[formflier]

If he really is a genius (and I'll take you at his word), how do you know that the idea would have failed if you had "let it go"?

Here is the thing, many times things fail because the right people aren't involved.

Isn't it possible that he could have pulled it out?

Possible and probable are very different things.

Best,

FF

[snowglobe]

Please go fix yourself another of your favorite morning beverage.  Some deep breathing.

Did you really stop him from doing all these things.  Do you have that level of control over him?

When you were doing all that working controlling him, or attempting to, who was looking at for you?

Best,

FF

I’m smiling, yes I need coffee and reality check...
Perhaps me nagging away awoken him to possible dangers of risky investments. Maybe, he decided on his  own, either way he didn’t make those mistakes. You are right, I don’t have the kind of power to make him do anything. Moreover, when I spent all this time chasing away after him, my own needs were not being met. I neglected to look after myself.

[Enabler]

He loves risk... in fact I'd guess that he thrives on it.

You hate risk... you want security.

We have a saying in trading circles... there's no reward without risk.

[formflier]

He loves risk...   there's no reward without risk.

This is how he makes money.  It is what it is. 

I would encourage you to be "logically consistent".  If you want the mansions and cars...this is the price.

This is part and parcel of who he is.

OK..time for FF confessional/reality.  I've "flipped" 50 or so houses.  I currently have around 10 rentals.

You can also find a foreclosure in there somewhere and you can also find a short sale or two in there.  I made a "business" decision that the best way forward on a couple properties was "failure".

This years harvest of beans (soybeans) looks really shakey.  I've never, nor has my Father before me, made a claim against "crop insurance".  There is a decent chance that we will this year.  Technically I suppose you could say I "failed" as a farmer this year (or may fail).

All of those "bad things" have influenced my future decisions.

They are what they are. 

I'm aware of other people in the media and through personal knowledge that have made and lost millions and made a bunch back again. 

I'm certainly trying to point out to you that evaluating and focusing on him has had a HUGE COST on you, even if what you have discovered is 100% accurate. (and I don't think it is accurate as we are discovering).

So...is it accurate to say that you are battling something other than reality?  (seriously...another beverage and a couple deep breaths).  Is whatever you are battling under your control/influence?

Best,

FF

[babyducks]

You believe the world is unsafe and a jungle.   You believe you need to be on high alert all the time to keep you and your kids safe.

That's not reality.

The trauma you experienced as a child created a filter through which you see the world.   You feel everything through this filter with a high degree of intensity.

I know it always feels like you are an instant away from financial disaster.  I know that feels very very real.

Only part of those feelings accurately reflect the current realty.

These highly intense fears are creating the reality you dread.

The more you chase him for security and safety the more resentful he becomes.

The more you try to manage and avoid financial disaster,   the more you see it lurking behind every tree, every rock, around every corner.

Right?

[Cat Familiar]

So what's the worst possible situation that you fear, snowglobe?

You've survived dire situations before. Are you afraid that you wouldn't have the strength and resourcefulness needed?

[Notwendy]

The trauma you experienced as a child created a filter through which you see the world.   You feel everything through this filter with a high degree of intensity.

Snowglobe- I think Ducks has said something important. You interpret your husband's actions through this filter and it shapes your reaction. Your reaction then triggers another reaction from your H. You then see this through the filter.

Change the filter and it's possible that things will appear different.

Rather than focus on your H- how about you set out to work on you- intensely. Go to co-dependency groups, see a counselor. You are a student and you might have resources on campus at low cost. Explore your spirituality- most colleges have student religious groups on campus or nearby- or religious groups near you. You don't have to be observant- just focus on learning.

Large houses, nice cars, nice clothes- those are external. How about taking care of the inside? Your trauma, your feelings, your religion.

I think you are correct that your H is able to break past boundaries. But boundaries are not about him. Stop putting boundaries on him and spinning your wheels to see that he follows them. Boundaries are for you, they are an extension of your values. Some might be: I will set aside one hour today to study for my class, and stick to it. I will attend one 12 step meeting this week- and stick to it. I will buy a book on Judaism and read one chapter this week.

By changing your filter, you will change how you react to your H, this in turn might change how he reacts to you. The good thing about this being your filter is that you can change this.

[formflier]

You believe the world is unsafe and a jungle.    

Snowglobe

Can you take a minute and focus on what Babyducks has said?  Does this sound similar to the "filter" that Notwendy mentions.

Do you think we can have an extended conversation about how you "see" the world and come up with a couple concrete steps you can take to change that view?

I think that would bring a lot of peace to your life.

What do you think?

Best,

FF

[snowglobe]

This is how he makes money.  It is what it is. 

I would encourage you to be "logically consistent".  If you want the mansions and cars...this is the price.

This is part and parcel of who he is.

OK..time for FF confessional/reality.  I've "flipped" 50 or so houses.  I currently have around 10 rentals.

You can also find a foreclosure in there somewhere and you can also find a short sale or two in there.  I made a "business" decision that the best way forward on a couple properties was "failure".

This years harvest of beans (soybeans) looks really shakey.  I've never, nor has my Father before me, made a claim against "crop insurance".  There is a decent chance that we will this year.  Technically I suppose you could say I "failed" as a farmer this year (or may fail).

All of those "bad things" have influenced my future decisions.

They are what they are. 

I'm aware of other people in the media and through personal knowledge that have made and lost millions and made a bunch back again. 

I'm certainly trying to point out to you that evaluating and focusing on him has had a HUGE COST on you, even if what you have discovered is 100% accurate. (and I don't think it is accurate as we are discovering).

So...is it accurate to say that you are battling something other than reality?  (seriously...another beverage and a couple deep breaths).  Is whatever you are battling under your control/influence?

Best,

FF

I took a little longer to think it over, since it’s a forum format and you can not see me, thus explaining my point is harder.
Here it comes in a point form:
“ I would encourage you to be "logically consistent".  If you want the mansions and cars...this is the price.“
When I am being logically consistent I can explain to you that I did not want the expensive cars, any car as long as it’s has newer technology would do. I am not hung up on the prestige aspects. No, I did not want a mansion, I was just fine living in my previous house, or any other of the similar value. In both cases, car and house, ubpdh’s mentality “only finest or nothi” ruled the selection.
Next, your personal example of perceived wins/failures is a great example of doing business. Now, in cases that you feel you did not do so hot on, do you start abusing your wife and children and blaming them for your failures? If my husband was the sole carrier of the consequences of his financial doings I would have no issue with that. When and if he fails, he blames me, and plays a possum leaving me clean up and figure out how to get out of that mess at least temporarily. He can not get out without my caretaking behaviour, or at least I can not let hide like ostrich long enough for the children to feel those consequences. Show must go on...
“ So...is it accurate to say that you are battling something other than reality?  (seriously...another beverage and a couple deep breaths).  Is whatever you are battling under your control/influence?”
What I am going through feels pretty real to me, he sat me down last night and went over the budget for the Reno project and furniture hunting. He is not considering all of the possible turns, as unexpected always occurs. He doesn’t factor unexpected, so when it arrives, he puts his hands up and kicks things around, leaving them unfinished.

[snowglobe]

You believe the world is unsafe and a jungle.   You believe you need to be on high alert all the time to keep you and your kids safe.

That's not reality.

The trauma you experienced as a child created a filter through which you see the world.   You feel everything through this filter with a high degree of intensity.

I know it always feels like you are an instant away from financial disaster.  I know that feels very very real.

Only part of those feelings accurately reflect the current realty.

These highly intense fears are creating the reality you dread.

The more you chase him for security and safety the more resentful he becomes.

The more you try to manage and avoid financial disaster,   the more you see it lurking behind every tree, every rock, around every corner.

Right?

I’m on high alert in order to secure my survival and children’s well being. I understand that some of it is coloured by trauma, however it is an extension of a normal self preservation mechanism. When you have a partner who does not live in reality (either seconds away from going on food stamps and cutting down on food expenses to buying luxury realestate within days. How can I maintain my sense of normalcy if I don’t put it through the prism? I am not only responsible for myself but for two children that need the resources in order to live. I want to maintain a sense of peace and stability that gets constantly distorted by their father’s behaviour.

[snowglobe]

So what's the worst possible situation that you fear, snowglobe?

You've survived dire situations before. Are you afraid that you wouldn't have the strength and resourcefulness needed?

That he will fly off the rails...
That his family of origin will start coming, thus triggering and exacerbating his already crazy behaviour by validating it. That they will jump on the wagon and start pressuring me to do things I did not want to do.
That he will take away my kids resources to maintain his lifestyle
That he won’t support my school endeavour
That his critical snapping will continue
That I will be triggered by his behaviour and do something I will regret
That my husband’s behaviour will affect the kids so much so that they won’t be able to perform well in school
That he will physically assault me again
That he will assault the children
ThAt I will have to involve authorities to keep him away from us
That he will take the weapons and kill us in our sleep
That he will hire people to kill me so he doesn’t have to share his assets and punish me for abandoning him
That he will take resources from kids to punish me into submission

And yes, I am afraid of not being prepared to handle those situations effectively

[snowglobe]

The trauma you experienced as a child created a filter through which you see the world.   You feel everything through this filter with a high degree of intensity.

Snowglobe- I think Ducks has said something important. You interpret your husband's actions through this filter and it shapes your reaction. Your reaction then triggers another reaction from your H. You then see this through the filter.

Change the filter and it's possible that things will appear different.

Rather than focus on your H- how about you set out to work on you- intensely. Go to co-dependency groups, see a counselor. You are a student and you might have resources on campus at low cost. Explore your spirituality- most colleges have student religious groups on campus or nearby- or religious groups near you. You don't have to be observant- just focus on learning.

Large houses, nice cars, nice clothes- those are external. How about taking care of the inside? Your trauma, your feelings, your religion.

I think you are correct that your H is able to break past boundaries. But boundaries are not about him. Stop putting boundaries on him and spinning your wheels to see that he follows them. Boundaries are for you, they are an extension of your values. Some might be: I will set aside one hour today to study for my class, and stick to it. I will attend one 12 step meeting this week- and stick to it. I will buy a book on Judaism and read one chapter this week.

By changing your filter, you will change how you react to your H, this in turn might change how he reacts to you. The good thing about this being your filter is that you can change this.

I will set the time aside to study during the day so I can be with my children
I contacted a councillor to meet after October 7th
I will research codependency group in my new area

Wendy, my fears aren’t completely irrational. They may originate is irrational, yet the support and persistence is due to my ubpdh’s behaviour and unpredictability

[snowglobe]

Snowglobe

Do you think we can have an extended conversation about how you "see" the world and come up with a couple concrete steps you can take to change that view?

I think that would bring a lot of peace to your life.

What do you think?

Best,

FF

I would love nothing more Ff,
Let’s explore...
I see the world as transactional relationships, other then between a parent and a child. I don’t see any reasons to love my children, provide and care for them other then because they are alive and breathing, and they are mine. I don’t believe that it is true with my relationships with my mother and father. I give them financially so they can help me with household and children. I also do things for them in terms of maintenance because they are immigrants, don’t speak the language proficiently, don’t know the laws and rights of this country as well as I do. Since I am not able to provide my mother with the same level of financial contribution as I did when we were living between the two cities, she is demanding from me and making ultimatums of leaving. She is doing things and then showing it to my ubpdh expecting 1.praise, validation and gratitude 2. Financial compensation. He isn’t providing her with either of them, since he is feeling abandoned by her constant  threats of moving out, and prefers to cut the ties on his terms. I feel back to the childhood when I was torn between my parents and effort to keep them at peace. Which makes me extremely hyper vigilant and stressed out. I’m also overwhelmed with the amount of house work and school load. I can’t maintain both on my own. My ubpdh doesn’t not contribute consistently, instead takes half naked pictures of himself at the gym. I see that because our phones are synchronized. He then proceeds to mock me for not going to the gym regularly and not having a perfect body.
My children are still adjusting to the new schools, friends and the area.
I’m petrified that unpdh won’t be able to support this expensive living style and the kids would have to move again. This isn’t good for the younger one with disability
What else would you like to know?

[Cat Familiar]

I can see that you have some legitimate fears based upon your history with your husband. And I can see how stressed out you are, dealing with everything that's going on in your life.   

What is one thing that's within your control to change that would make a big difference in lessening all this stress?

[babyducks]

That he will fly off the rails...
That his family of origin will start coming, thus triggering and exacerbating his already crazy behaviour by validating it. That they will jump on the wagon and start pressuring me to do things I did not want to do.
That he will take away my kids resources to maintain his lifestyle
That he won’t support my school endeavour
That his critical snapping will continue
That I will be triggered by his behaviour and do something I will regret
That my husband’s behaviour will affect the kids so much so that they won’t be able to perform well in school
That he will physically assault me again
That he will assault the children
ThAt I will have to involve authorities to keep him away from us
That he will take the weapons and kill us in our sleep
That he will hire people to kill me so he doesn’t have to share his assets and punish me for abandoning him
That he will take resources from kids to punish me into submission

And yes, I am afraid of not being prepared to handle those situations effectively

That's a hell of a list snowglobe.  I have read it a couple of times.    Thought about it some.

Your H is chaotic.   At any given moment he is capable of making a financial decision that could ruin the family.   

He is violent.    He can assault the children or you.

He is so dangerous,  he could kill you or order a murder.

I'm honestly seriously confused.    In the face of all this,   in the face of all this evidence you want to do what exactly. ...?

 What is it you want to do so you don't have to be on high alert in order to survive?

[snowglobe]

I can see that you have some legitimate fears based upon your history with your husband. And I can see how stressed out you are, dealing with everything that's going on in your life.   

What is one thing that's within your control to change that would make a big difference in lessening all this stress?

One thing that comes to mind is my reaction to his behaviour, is that what you are leading me towards to?

[snowglobe]

That's a hell of a list snowglobe.  I have read it a couple of times.    Thought about it some.

Your H is chaotic.   At any given moment he is capable of making a financial decision that could ruin the family.   

He is violent.    He can assault the children or you.

He is so dangerous,  he could kill you or order a murder.

I'm honestly seriously confused.    In the face of all this,   in the face of all this evidence you want to do what exactly. ...?

 What is it you want to do so you don't have to be on high alert in order to survive?

I want to finish my school so I can get a meaningful employment position enough to support myself and the kids. On this case I would be able to make a clean bargain, one he would gladly take- I take the kids and go in peace and you take our assets. Everyone wins

[babyducks]

If you changed your reaction to his behaviour,  would that help you finish your school and find meaningful employment?

[Notwendy]

To add to Babyduck's point - I don't think your fears are irrational or have no basis. However, the way we perceive things and how we react are influenced by our "filter".

Fear is an emotion designed to protect us. At one point, we lived in the wild. Fear was useful to protect us if we were being chased by a wild animal that wanted to eat us.

For most of us, we are thankfully not being chased by wild animals, but our fear reaction is biologically similar and it affects our reactions.

Personally I think much of our co-dependent behavior comes out of trying to manage our fears. We try to manage them by doing something about the other person- trying to change them. It's usually not very successful. What is more successful is doing something to manage ourselves- learning how to examine the fear, calm down, decide if it is seriously threatening or not, and take rational action if needed.

Finishing school is a rational action. If you were able to support yourself, you would then not fear your H would leave you destitute.

Your H has physically harmed you. Trying to change him is like trying to change the bear that is chasing you for breakfast. It's more effective to have a safety plan. Early humans found it safer to live in a cave. What can you do in modern times to protect yourselves if he is violent?

Fear is not the problem. It's an adaptive and protective mechanism. However, we are able to examine fears and take appropriate action to the best of our ability. Working on what we can do, not trying to change the other person is more effective.  It's also possible to work on emotion regulation with a counselor to rationally decide how dangerous is the situation we fear. Fear can feel like we are being chased by a bear, but not all fears are this much of an immediate threat.

[babyducks]

What is more successful is doing something to manage ourselves- learning how to examine the fear, calm down, decide if it is seriously threatening or not, and take rational action if needed.

I am totally in agreement with Notwendy.

Do you have a safety plan?   Something that could carry you through the next 2 weeks if he becomes violent.    Not the next 2 years, 2 weeks.    Do you have a place to run in an emergency,     someplace you can find while you are upset?   Do you have an emergency go bag?  A second set of keys kept with a friend or neighbor?  A small amount of quick cash if you need to get a hotel room for a night?

Are you interested in us helping craft a safety plan with you?

[Harri]

This thread reached the post limit and has been locked.  The discussion continues here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=340024.msg13079697#msg13079697

Thank you.