I so wanted a bit of what everyone else got.?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Mod Note:   this thread was split from another as it is a worthy topic that merits it's own discussion  (was split from here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339800.0 )

I got a little confused, I thought your T said he didn’t agree with the BPD diagnosis. I stand corrected that he eluded to it by suggesting she should seek medical help. That’s lovely about your son. Sometimes kids back up and shy away from whirlwinds, sounds like he’s come out of his bunker. I loove watching a film with the girls, just being with them, they choose (D9 has chosen some proper shockers).

All events have to come with a bottle of Prosecco. It’s been a few years since we’ve done much socially. I’m the latter few years when we were going out I’d usually be the one who had to head back to relieve the babysitter. What would also distress me was how quickly the social mask would slip off, as quick as putting an umbrella up in the rain as she walked out the door. I so wanted a bit of what everyone else got.

My kids are 11, 9 & 6. D11 sees things but doesn’t comment as she VERY closed and quite emotional,  D9 sees and says, she’s a proper chatterbox. D6 I think my W sees as her last chance hence she does things like co-sleeping with her and when I tell her off and sit her on the stairs she’ll go and pick her up and take her to bed for a cuddle. D6 naturally swings from being the most loving wonderful girl to calling you a F’ing Sheet Head... yes... she’s 6.

Romans 12:21
21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Enabler

[Enabler]

Mod Note:   this thread was split from another as it is a worthy topic that merits it's own discussion  (was split from here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339800.0 )

I got a little confused, I thought your T said he didn’t agree with the BPD diagnosis. I stand corrected that he eluded to it by suggesting she should seek medical help. That’s lovely about your son. Sometimes kids back up and shy away from whirlwinds, sounds like he’s come out of his bunker. I loove watching a film with the girls, just being with them, they choose (D9 has chosen some proper shockers).

All events have to come with a bottle of Prosecco. It’s been a few years since we’ve done much socially. I’m the latter few years when we were going out I’d usually be the one who had to head back to relieve the babysitter. What would also distress me was how quickly the social mask would slip off, as quick as putting an umbrella up in the rain as she walked out the door. I so wanted a bit of what everyone else got.

My kids are 11, 9 & 6. D11 sees things but doesn’t comment as she VERY closed and quite emotional,  D9 sees and says, she’s a proper chatterbox. D6 I think my W sees as her last chance hence she does things like co-sleeping with her and when I tell her off and sit her on the stairs she’ll go and pick her up and take her to bed for a cuddle. D6 naturally swings from being the most loving wonderful girl to calling you a F’ing Sheet Head... yes... she’s 6.

Romans 12:21
21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Enabler

[Birddog]

Enabler,

Have very similar household dynamics with 3xD.

[Stillhopeful4]

I got a little confused, I thought your T said he didn’t agree with the BPD diagnosis.

Not this time, but the time before he said "she doesn't scream BPD", maybe he wasn't looking for it, but after I suggested it and told him the traits she was exhibiting maybe he changed his mind...or maybe he just thinks she needs meds?

I loove watching a film with the girls, just being with them, they choose (D9 has chosen some proper shockers).

Me too!  We haven't watched a movie together in years because she didn'tlike watching them.

What would also distress me was how quickly the social mask would slip off

Do you mean when she came home, after the social event?  Like at the event she was all nice and flitting around and ten she comes home or gets in the car with you and it's stone face and angry?

My kids are 11, 9 & 6. D11 sees things but doesn’t comment as she VERY closed and quite emotional,  D9 sees and says, she’s a proper chatterbox. D6 I think my W sees as her last chance hence she does things like co-sleeping with her and when I tell her off and sit her on the stairs she’ll go and pick her up and take her to bed for a cuddle. D6 naturally swings from being the most loving wonderful girl to calling you a F’ing Sheet Head... yes... she’s 6.

That's ironic...3rd babies can do that...my 3rd one...the one that came out to watch the movie (he's 16) ...he's the same way...so loveable, but will tell me off with F bombs left and right!

Romans 12:21
21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

SH4

[Enabler]

Do you mean when she came home, after the social event?  Like at the event she was all nice and flitting around and ten she comes home or gets in the car with you and it's stone face and angry?

Yep, that's the one, like the lights were on at the party and on exiting the event someone switched them off. It's very tough not to take that personally.

[Stillhopeful4]

Yes, I completely understand where you are coming from.  THen you ask them what changed and the response is something like...nothing...everything is FINE (Fine...favorite word right up there with IT DOESN'T MATTER).  And they say something like...what are you accusing me of.  I can't.  I wonder more and more why I want this back in my life.

[Enabler]

Then you walk or drive back home with this air of weirdness where you know something is remarkably different... but she's telling you everything is fine. Typically I start running through my mental rollerdex to work out if I talked to any women, gorped at any women, didn't pay her enough attention, said something offensive... breathed too much. Any thoughts of a evening romp go out the window since by the end of the journey I'm absolutely petrified of going anywhere near her, for fear of getting a giant bit of eggshell in my foot.

 

[Stillhopeful4]

Yes, exactly.  You do have a way with words that paints a picture to really visualize things!  I can not believe all of these years I thought I was going crazy...

[Notwendy]

Have you read the book "Passionate Marriage"?

It's got some steamy content, which I actually found distracting from the wisdom in the book about relationships. However, it also reflects the topic- how dysfunction affects passion in marriage. It isn't specifically about BPD but speaks to the effect of co-dependency and enmeshment.

When I read your comment: I'm absolutely petrified of going anywhere near her, for fear of getting a giant bit of eggshell in my foot. It reminded me of the book. Passion in marriage, intimacy, "going for it" involves a bit of risk. Yes, you might get some eggshells but, if you stay fearful, I don't think your chances of getting a bit of anything are high.

This doesn't mean you should act like a boor and grab it either, but showing some interest isn't being boorish.

I know your wife has said she wants divorce but you don't. Maybe you might be able to play this triangle game to your advantage. Maybe you can be the "OM" this time and make a play for her?

She's got the mask on in social settings, well go ahead and put yours on with her too- not a fake you but a courageous one, even if you don't feel it. Next time you two are walking home from a party and she's seemed to be in a good mood, maybe try something different - chat her up, "hey baby..." Show you are interested.

Yeah you might get a bunch of eggshells thrown at you but what do you have to lose- really? Doing what you are doing isn't getting any affection, so why not try something different. At least it might surprise her.

One point in the book- fear, enmeshment, - those aren't sexy. They dampen passion. Confidence might  change this.  Maybe, maybe not, but you won't know without trying something different.

The book is a good read about these marital issues, and although not specific to BPD, has some interesting points about relationships.

[Enabler]

Hiya Notwendy, thanks for the book suggestion. It's been a while since I've even been invited to a funeral with my W let alone a party. I do see what you mean though and being 'bold' has paid dividends, even if it's a case of coming home after she's sent me a stroppy divorce email, brushing that off and being my usual happy go lucky self. I am positive she notices it, I'm positive that it slightly bugs her that I can let her rock throwing bounce off my metaphorical shield but at the same time i'm sure it intrigues her, maybe even ever so slightly attracts her. She certainly wants an emotionally strong person to rest on.

FWIW this thread was slice and diced out of thread SH4 was writing on the Bettering board. The context was we were exploring a few of the weird things that our pwBPD do that she couldn't make sense of, one of which was how our SO's act so pleasantly to others in a social environment yet when we step out of that environment the mask slips very rapidly, even on the way home from the party. The fact that I couldn't get treated in the same way as 'the others' was of huge sadness to me.

Enabler

[Notwendy]

Yes, I get that.

I think we all have a social mask to some degree. I'm more formal at work, more chatty at parties than I am at home. I think with BPD the mask is an exaggeration of that. I think it stems from fear - self loathing and also a feeling that they need to be someone else to be loved. The mask is a crafted exterior. The problem with this is that, everyone loves the mask, and the mask isn't real so they don't really feel the love they want by having the mask in the first place.

It used to really hurt my feelings to see my H be Mr. Wonderful to everyone else and then be Mr. Hyde at home with me. Then, I realized that the mask isn't real. I actually don't like the mask because of that. Admittedly, I fell in love with the persona of the mask, then after marriage, it seemed I got another side. I don't mind that people have ups and downs, but I also wanted some of the ups. Now, I recognize that the mask is a fake persona, I don't like it.

I told my H that I didn't expect a perfect husband, I would much prefer a human one. I think that everyone wants to be loved for who they are and that includes pwBPD. They just don't like who they are, I think.

My BPD mother has perfected the mask to where I think she could win an academy award. The mask is amazing. I've seen her snap from raging to Mrs. Amazing in seconds if company is around. When I've seen her in her mask, sometimes I don't even know her. Who is this woman?

She's a careful conglomeration of personalities she has imitated. She tells stories of her experiences and they aren't hers. Sometimes they are mine! She wants to present herself as a wonderful mother and tells stories like "I recall when I did this with the kids" but it isn't her- it's something I told her I did with my kids. She didn't parent her own kids much.

Everyone in her circle adores the mask, thinks she's just wonderful. The mother in the mask is not the mother who raised me.

I understand wanting this and feeling as if you are less when you don't get it but actually- you get the real person. Your wife is comfortable enough to let that show. It may not feel like much of a privilege at times, but I would rather have real than fake.

[once removed]

brushing that off and being my usual happy go lucky self. I am positive she notices it, I'm positive that it slightly bugs her that I can let her rock throwing bounce off my metaphorical shield but at the same time i'm sure it intrigues her, maybe even ever so slightly attracts her. She certainly wants an emotionally strong person to rest on.

are you wearing a happy face to bug her, send a message, attract her, intrigue her?

[Enabler]

No, I am wearing my happy face because for years and years my emotions were linked to hers, not specifically because I could only be happy if she was happy but because I felt it was my job to make her happy. I accept that is not my job to make her happy, neither is it her job to make me happy. I foolishly believed that her unhappiness was a reflection of my ability as a husband or lover to meet her needs or provide an environment in which happiness should occur. In essence there is no reason why I should be unhappy other than her unhappiness and how that is projected onto me. I'm stepping off her emotional rollercoaster, she can stay on it if she wants to.

I'm emotionally differentiating myself from her. When I was yoyoing around with her she looked as me as though I was the problem (blissfully unaware that her normal was very volatile). Now that I have stepped off the rollercoaster her own volatility is more visible. I'm not sure she likes that... I'm not sure she likes anything I do in fairness... I'm almost certain she'd like me to go back to being the problem. I can't help her, she doesn't want me to help her, she doesn't want me in our house let alone in her head.

I guess in complete answer to your question... I'm none of the above, I'm not wearing a happy face because of anything to do with her.

[Stillhopeful4]

Now that I have stepped off the rollercoaster her own volatility is more visible. I'm not sure she likes that... I'm not sure she likes anything I do in fairness...

I feel the same way.  She seems to be melting down more and more and she can't blame me or anyone so she has to look to herself and she's not liking that!

I guess in complete answer to your question... I'm none of the above, I'm not wearing a happy face because of anything to do with her.

Good for you!  You are doing it for you!  I'm trying to get there! 

SH4

[Enabler]

Great to hear it SH4, that's brilliant to hear.

It's like many things e.g. I try and suppress my anxiety when she's getting very stressed about things... it still results in my compulsively cleaning or tidying something but I certainly attempt to find myself more amused than as though someone is shaking my head. I've taken to laying down on one of the kids beds and having a chat with them when she's in one of those moods. I steer clear of the kitchen when she's cooking to avoid listen to her blame every man and his spatula for why a cake or dinner didn't turn out well.

The dynamic of "wanted a bit of what everyone else got" is even at home now. She will be pleasant enough when the kids are around, and then ignore me when they're in bed. When she leaves the house she'll make sure she kisses the kids a thousand times but I'm lucky to get a "laters". It is personal and it is intentional, whether I should feel sympathy for the place she's in, I struggle.

We've been having an email exchange at the moment about moving forward with the divorce and doing the financial agreement. She mentioned again that she would like me to move out the family home during the completion of the process. Among other things said I wrote this:

If you would like to improve the environment we live in, maybe you might consider adopting a more reasonable set of behaviours, one without abusive behaviours such as silent treatment, passive aggressive behaviour, information hoarding, deceit and general manipulation. I am sure our children would greatly appreciate that as well (as they have requested). Developing a cordial relationship will be paramount to co-parent over the years to come, so what better time to start than now. I appreciate you have negative feelings towards me, and you have your own reasons for that, but I implore you to put those feelings aside. I see no rational reason to not want this given the divorce process is proceeding at a speed set by you and not hindered at all by me.

To an extent I see this as a small 'Push'.

She doesn't wish to tell the kids until it's all agreed and I do. I am sick of the deceit of it all.

Enabler

[Red5]

… back in the day, there were some "sayings" I used to hear growing up, rural north central Florida… the "other Florida"… "way down upon the Suwannee River Florida"… "cyprus swamps & flat woods Florida"… circa 1970 - 1984,

*If mama ain't happy, nobody's happy".
*She wears the britches in that family".
*He is a "hen-pecked" husband".
*She is a "high-minded" woman".
*She's gonna take him to the "wood shed", and wear him out".
*She uses that rolling pin, and frying pan for more than just making breakfast"!

Ever see the old comics, "Snuffy Smith"?



I've read a lot about how the males of the far distant society have been (were) groomed (raised) to be 'enablers'… codependents even… under the cultural construct of honoring, and taking care of a woman, wife, the mother of your children… the youngsters future wives… I certainly was, I don't think it was malicious, or meant to deliver the poor whelp to future abusive behaviors from a woman, wife… but like anything else, some folks find themselves being taken advantage of in these dysfunctional relationships… they were perfectly "programed" to fill this billet… I certainly was extremely naive growing up, I thought everyone outside of the county road farm was "on the level"… (jail-prison), think of "Cool Hand Luke"… yes, I thought that everyone else was a good and righteous person, just as my Grandparents were…

We were raised to understand this was "normal"… a "hen-pecked" husband was just what you might wind up as… and you were raised to accept this… divorce was a nogo, "till death you part"… you stuck in there… wow, I'd have to take off my steel toes to count the number of "dysfunctional" families, marriages I saw growing up (in retrospect now)… and it was considered "normal"… we are talking decades of marriage, lots of children, and grandchildren… whole family legacy's, generational… my best friends daddy just turned eighty back home… and he is still just as crazy, and ____ as he was when we were growing up… nothings changed, not at all… he's just eighty now… wow !

And the genders may be interchangeable as well… not just XY & XX, its across the spectrum,

...took me a few years to understand that there was a whole other world outside of Suwannee County Florida!

Multitudes of us here, have been operating in the "FOG" for a very long time… not understanding the "why"… and I'll venture to say that a lot of us thought "we" were the ones that were wrong, broken, off track, and the one with the "problem"… because that is just what our wives, husbands, girlfriends, boyfriends and partners were telling us… 24/7... sometimes for years, even decades… insert Charlie Brown's teachers voice here from the comic strip "Peanuts"… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ss2hULhXf04

You hang in there Enabler!… I like your letter,

… good thread!  

Red5

[Stillhopeful4]

She will be pleasant enough when the kids are around, and then ignore me when they're in bed.

This was common in my house too.

PS.  I replied to your weekend post, but it looks like it got moved to the bettering board...not sure if you saw it.

[once removed]

No, I am wearing my happy face because for years and years my emotions were linked to hers, not specifically because I could only be happy if she was happy but because I felt it was my job to make her happy. I accept that is not my job to make her happy, neither is it her job to make me happy. I foolishly believed that her unhappiness was a reflection of my ability as a husband or lover to meet her needs or provide an environment in which happiness should occur. In essence there is no reason why I should be unhappy other than her unhappiness and how that is projected onto me. I'm stepping off her emotional rollercoaster, she can stay on it if she wants to.

I'm emotionally differentiating myself from her. When I was yoyoing around with her she looked as me as though I was the problem (blissfully unaware that her normal was very volatile). Now that I have stepped off the rollercoaster her own volatility is more visible. I'm not sure she likes that... I'm not sure she likes anything I do in fairness... I'm almost certain she'd like me to go back to being the problem. I can't help her, she doesn't want me to help her, she doesn't want me in our house let alone in her head.

I guess in complete answer to your question... I'm none of the above, I'm not wearing a happy face because of anything to do with her.
...
If you would like to improve the environment we live in, maybe you might consider adopting a more reasonable set of behaviours, one without abusive behaviours such as silent treatment, passive aggressive behaviour, information hoarding, deceit and general manipulation. I am sure our children would greatly appreciate that as well (as they have requested). Developing a cordial relationship will be paramount to co-parent over the years to come, so what better time to start than now. I appreciate you have negative feelings towards me, and you have your own reasons for that, but I implore you to put those feelings aside. I see no rational reason to not want this given the divorce process is proceeding at a speed set by you and not hindered at all by me.

all of this is the right attitude if you want to detach from your relationship. its likely counter productive if you want to save your marriage.

which way are you leaning?

[Enabler]

which way are you leaning?

My utopia is to save my marriage, but I DO NOT want to go back to an unhealthy relationship. I just can’t. It isn’t a marriage.

Every day I come home and say ‘hello, how was your day?’, every day I get a one word answer at best, a grunt or completely ignored at other times. I called her on my way home last night because a main round was closed and I was delayed by 2 hours, she didn’t answer and didn’t call back. I was ringing to ask her who was looking after the kids. I can not force her to be reasonable, I can’t resolve her anger for her, I cannot make her think differently about the past... I will not support her delusion about me abusing her, I have made myself UTTERLY accountable for my role in the dysfunctional relationship.

As far as building bridges goes I feel like I have built the entire bridge towards her apart from the last brick she has to slot in, she utterly refuses to do so. Considering that email in a metaphorical sense it was in many respects chopping off some of that bridge saying ‘if you want to live your life this way that’s your choice but I choose not to and I am not okay with your behaviour and neither are the kids... and everyone has told you so’. It’s not nice, it’s not ‘kind’, it’s the truth. She would like me to jump off a cliff voluntarily, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to refuse to do so.

What do you suggest Once Removed?

Enabler

[once removed]

things have been breaking down for a long time.

i wont pretend to necessarily have answers, but i think we share a goal in saving your marriage, and also in not going back to an unhealthy one.

its important to be realistic, too.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/your-relationship-breaking-down

what stage would you say your relationship is in?

if its in stage four, marriages rarely (not never) come back from it. and not everything about trying to improve the relationship, or the circumstances, is by the book so to speak.

perhaps more important is really committing to a path of trying to save it or accepting that it cant be saved, because theyre really different, competing paths.

and whatever happens, its going to matter to you in the long run, five years from now, ten years from now, wherever you end up.

Every day I come home and say ‘hello, how was your day?’, every day I get a one word answer at best,

change it up.

every day i came home from school, and my mom asked "how was school" and my answer was "good" or "fine" or some variation. story of every kids life.

its boring, its predictable, it gets the same answer every time. its a nice and thoughtful gesture. theres just no value in repeating it.

if the goal is to initiate conversation, to show interest in her day, whatever, be more specific. ask her about something you know interests her, something going on in her life...something you know gets her talking. and dont be surprised if it takes a few tries, a few hits and misses. speaking as an introvert, people try to do this with me all the time; the people that know me best can get me going on for ages.

by itself it will hardly save your marriage. it will be more interesting for both of you. with some success, it can be something, anything, to build on.

Considering that email in a metaphorical sense it was in many respects chopping off some of that bridge

the email is full of blame, labels, and JADE.

how would you respond to it? how would anyone? it wont even keep the peace if youre trying to detach. it definitely wont encourage anything more constructive or pleasant between the two of you, which i assume is the goal.

whats been going on recently that sparked you wanting to send the email? what, at the heart of it, are you trying to say?

[Enabler]

We are unequivocally in stage 4... with little bells on. This morning she sent a mail to the legal mediator to kick off discussions on financials again, something she's been talking about over email with me since middle of September. As mentioned before, she would like to do almost every part of the legal work before telling the children, whereas I would like honesty and integrity to return to our home... it's all fake, it's all a fraud and I'm sick of it.

I have tried almost every topic under the sun in an attempt to stimulate conversations. She might at a push have a conversation with me about something to do with my family or something bad in my life, but she will not have any conversations about anything to do with her, anything to do with her network, pretty much anything with any emotional content. She refuses to be vulnerable in the slightest. She is happy to ask for things and ask for practical help, ask for money etc but as soon as she's got what she wants the shutters come down again. She has more olive branches at her feet than the whole of Italy.

Yes my email did have a lot of blame and JADE in it, I totally accept that, but I don't think she realises quite how abusive her behaviour is, and has been for years now... or maybe she does and maybe she believes she is righteously punishing me. Over the past 3 years I've done the empathetic conversations where I've allowed her to tell me how rotten I am, not invalidated her and validated where I could. I've talked to her about myself and my emotional discovery and avoided blame and shame on her, I've tried allowing her to have her cake and eat it... the list goes on... and I've tried these things for 6m periods +. She has people around her who validate the invalid, people who agree to things they have NO IDEA about, she has zero incentive to face any reality about her own behaviour and I'd go so far as to suggest that she protects that by silence... "if I don't tell him anything about me, he can't hurt me with it."

I'm aware that a divorce is probable, we're so far down the road that I see very improbable routes that she has to take that might lead to reunification. Like I said before, it's just 1 brick she has to place in the bridge to make that connection, she even knows how to do it and she's become close to putting that brick in there a few times I'm sure. I don't make it difficult for her to put that brick in there but I feel she refuses to do it because of this huge mountain of delusion she has about me, what I'm about and my character, our history... it's allllllllll dark, allllllll black. I have to accept that I cannot control how she feels about me, I cannot really influence whether or not she pushes forward with the divorce (which she is for now), BUT, what I can control is my boundaries with regards to how that happens. In Dec17 she decided she wanted to sell the house without any legal agreements in place... I said that was not okay. In Nov18 I highlighted to her that as part of her wish to divorce it would be expected (to maximise her income) of her to give up charity work that she started after starting divorce proceedings, she did not like that. She's not entitled to everything she thinks she is and since none of her friends seem to be managing the process of fantasy turning into reality it's just left to me to manage that. How can one be kind and loving (in her eyes) when I also need to protect myself and the children from her abuse (that includes her having unreasonable entitlement)? Every time I protect myself I hurt her, every time I'm forced to tell her that there aren't cake eating unicorns in the front garden that excrete £20 notes I hurt her.

In May this year we had conversation where she pretty much said that living with me was intolerable and she couldn't do it for another 10 years til the girls were older. I validated where possible and the upshot was that I 'nicely and kindly' using SET suggested that we didn't need to be angry with each other anymore. To which she said "that feels fake". I went on to ask why it was that she could be pleasant with me when we were in the company of others, to which she said "that's fake"... to which I replied "well it's not fake for me, I don't want or need to be angry with you, I decided a long time ago to park my anger before it destroyed me". She is well versed in this, heck she even goes into a local women's prison where she teaches prisoners about forgiveness and the damage NOT forgiving can cause to herself AND the people around her. She knows, she even teaches it. I'm asking her to practice what she literally preaches. The hypocrisy is off the clocks!

I couldn't tell you what my wife was (introverted/extroverted) as she has so many different masks.

Enabler

[Stillhopeful4]

She knows, she even teaches it. I'm asking her to practice what she literally preaches. The hypocrisy is off the clocks!

Enabler,

This is just heartbreaking.  So she knows how to do it, but doesn't with the person closest to her. I'm so sorry. 

SH4

[Enabler]

Correct... She's done the course at least 3 times and has handbooks (only way I know she's done it) with her writing in answering all the questions and discussion points... and now she's leading it.

I struggle to comprehend how this can be... I mean I know the theory and all... but how can someone have such a disconnect between what she practices and what she preaches?

[formflier]

Why not go take her class? 

Seriously...

You can have follow up questions at home too. 

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

Ha, well unfortunately I would have to have a sex change and be put in prison. She's a pastoral assistant inside the women's prison. These courses are church run rehabilitation sessions for the inmates.

I've considered wearing a body camera... maybe a live stream to Facebook would make people see Jekyll or is it Hyde.

More emails to and from legal mediator... I reply asking when the 'Child Order' is negotiated to which he responded "Most people agree the children’s arrangements on a voluntary basis as part of the mediation discussions, with it rarely being necessary to covert this into a court order"... all the usual anxiety physical sensation alarm bells went off and I immediately responded "I am not at all keen on a flexible arrangement, nor am I keen to sign any sort of financial agreement without sufficient legal protection surrounding my access to our children" as well as asking for clarification. She has spent 3 years + lying through her teeth towards me with chilling calmness, why on earth would I trust her to behave reasonably with regards to parental or grandparent access?

Need to chill

Enabler

[Red5]

More emails to and from legal mediator... I reply asking when the 'Child Order' is negotiated to which he responded "Most people agree the children’s arrangements on a voluntary basis as part of the mediation discussions, with it rarely being necessary to covert this into a court order"...

...I immediately responded "I am not at all keen on a flexible arrangement, nor am I keen to sign any sort of financial agreement without sufficient legal protection surrounding my access to our children" as well as asking for clarification.

She has spent 3 years + lying through her teeth towards me with chilling calmness, why on earth would I trust her to behave reasonably with regards to parental or grandparent access?

Enabler

Your wife has shown you exactly whom she really is, hypocrisy and all…

I am not sure of the laws in the UK as far as domain, divorce, and "equitable distribution"…

I have been divorced before, and am now separated here in the States… a few things I understand,

*don't move out of the home, if you do, its up to her when and if you ever move back in.

*maintain as best you can "structure" in regards to your three daughters, school, church, community events, even grocery shopping… be the "one who runs things"… take over and manage as much as you can.

We have all been walking along with you for all these months, years… we are still here with you, know that!

Maybe, your wife's "selfishness" will get the better of her, she may just move out on her own, and leave you with your daughters in the home, right now, that may be the best option… my first wife did this.

As your wife is teaching a class to the ladies in the prison, my first wife used to volunteer at soup kitchens, and as well "habitat for humanity"… meanwhile, she would leave in the evening, and most of the night, myself and our three kids, to go and "spend time" with her BF… I think its a conscience thing… they will do some community service to dull the self inflicted betrayal of being "bad"… perhaps?

I know you hope for reconciliation, as we all do for you… maybe one day she "come round"… that would be a true miracle… and a blessing, so don't give up Brother.

I remember telling my first wife, something along the lines of… " hey, I'll put you up in an apartment / townhouse, I'll provide all the furnishings, and pay the rent… you do what you want to for a year… we'll have a therapeutic separation… go sort your self out… be free… and if at the end of the year, you want to reconcile, we will, if not, then you go, and go in peace, because then, after a year, we will both know "we tried" "…

She turned me down flat, and left anyway, she walked away… our three kids, the dog, the cat, the ferret, and me… because she didn't want the responsibility, or the commitment anymore… she had finally come round to this…

I often pondered "why"… well, it was her inner demons… her childhood monsters never left her alone…

I know you love your wife Enabler, I know you do…

I read something yesterday, about how disordered people "feed" off each other… both good and bad "supply" is sought… simultaneously… I think, in the case of your own wife, you Enabler represent to her… responsibility, commitment, and she can't handle it anymore, so you are her "bad supply"… the OM, whom I think is a cerebral overt narcissists from all this persons writings you've shared here… is using her, your wife... to "feed" off of, and she is also using him to "feed"… they are both "supply" for each other… he as well has walked out on his own wife, and children if I remember correctly… I have also read, how a borderline will seek out a narcissist, as the two together create a perpetual "supply", albeit extremely dysfunctional… the OM's own wife represents to him, also;… responsibility, commitment… and he wants none of it… this is his simultaneous "bad" supply.

Maybe this will play out the same for you, as OM's wife… maybe your wife will just one day… pack her things, leave you a note, and leave… she may very well just walk away from your home, your daughters, and you… you may need to prepare yourself for this scenario… especially as you do not participate in the divorced process… this happens all the time in our societies… when it happened to me, I didn't really see it coming either… but it did,

What are your thoughts on this?

Did this aforementioned scenario happen at all in your wife's own Foo?… her mum, dad, or sisters?

Keep Posting,

Kind Regards, Red5

[Enabler]

Red I really really appreciate your support. I almost feel unworthy of the support since we all know we have a role in the chaos. I’ve pondered the idea of her doing a runner and got pretty comfortable with it. I can’t see it with any high degree of probability, I can see a more likely scenario of the divorce happening and the sense of containment rocketing as she’ll be left holding the proverbial baby unable to maintain her social “needs”. I don’t like to focus on one outcome and maintain a range of potential outcomes.

Enabler

[Enabler]

So the email exchange ramped up over the past few weeks and today I sent a very provocative mail. It was very accurate and factual but contradicts her world view and her view of her own behaviour on a gargantuan level. The divorce seems likely and email discussions centre around 'what's best for the children' and her interpretation of 'what's best for the children' seems to align nicely with her narrative for the last 3 years which is... "BE GONE". Anyway, I don't believe moving out is in the children's best interest so replied accordingly:

Enabler - Therefore I am sorry but I will not be moving out. If you would like to improve the environment we live in (which I yearn for) maybe you might consider adopting a more reasonable set of behaviours, one without abusive behaviours such as silent treatment, passive aggressive anger, information hoarding, deceit and general manipulation. I am sure our children would greatly appreciate that as well (as they have requested). Developing a cordial relationship will be paramount to co-parent over the years to come, so what better time to start than now. I appreciate you have negative feelings towards me, and you have your own reasons for that, but I implore you to put those feelings aside

EnablerW - Again Enabler, there is your experience and there is mine. I find it uncomfortable living with you. I feel on edge all the time. I don’t know what is bubbling beneath the surface and I feel constant anxiety. I am silent because I am not interested in engaging with you, its not silent treatment...

So here's my question... is silent treatment not silent treatment when a person is "not interested in engaging with you"?

She goes on to say

We are separated with a divorce in process so I have no reason to share my life with you ad you have no reason to share yours with me.

Is that justification in itself to ignore me?

The issue I have with this reasoning is that silent treatment has existed in periods throughout our relationship before divorce was 'in-play'. She's also inconsistent as to when she deploys silent treatment and acts cordially when amongst outsiders whom I assume she doesn't want to 'appear' unreasonable in  front of.

Enabler

[once removed]

i dont know if putting a label on it helps either way.

youre using the term "silent treatment" because you perceive what shes doing as abusive.

I am silent because I am not interested in engaging with you

she perceives what shes doing as disengaging.

Is that justification in itself to ignore me?

and it seems like you are mostly interested in who is right or wrong about it.

i suspect that is part of what she is disengaging from.

thoughts?

[formflier]

youre using the term "silent treatment" because you perceive what shes doing as abusive.
 

I think I can add a bit to the point being made here.

Enabler is writing from his point of view (understandably) and I get the vibe that he perceives the "silent treatment" as about him or "directed at him".  (and it may be, we can't know)

There is a large chance that the silent treatment is more about Enabler wife.  Please don't here me say it's a "good thing", but do hear me say it's like a "better thing" that if she "opened up".  I'm doubtful she would be able to have productive or cordial conversations (at least for very long)

Going to end this thought/post.  I'm still trying to come up with the analogy for my next point.

Hang in there Enabler.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

OK...Enabler

I'm hearing that you don't want to divorce and I'm also hearing that you are having discussions with your wife and mediators about divorce.

I'm confused.  I guarantee you your wife is as well.  If "confused" is not the best word, perhaps "Hearing mixed messages" is a better phrase/word.

People that don't want divorce..don't take action to facilitate that. 

break break (Red5 can explain this or google does it justice)

I also have heard consistently that Enabler not only doesn't want a divorce but wants to "save" the marriage or "improve it" (loud and clear that this doesn't mean going back to old ways).

Enabler please hear this.  These emails and what I'm hearing you are doing are unlikely to "prevent" divorce, "save" your marriage or "improve" your relationship (that will obviously continue, regardless of your marriage) 

Stand by for pilot analogy.  What I'm seeing you do is analogous to a pilot with a broken airplane who is saying he is heading for the divert field (a long way off), yet at the same time that same pilot is dumping fuel (most planes have a way to dump fuel to lighten their load which also reduces their range).

You know me.  I'm likely an optimist about relationships to a fault.  So I'm clearly voting that you try to "save" your family. 

Isn't it time for something bold, followed by a completely different "day to day" approach.

Best,

FF