UBPD SIL toxic behaviour update

[Our abuse recovery guide]

Hello, It’s been a while since I last posted here but I have been coming to this site regularly as I find it helps me to settle my ongoing feelings of disquiet, concerns, worry and anxiety about our family dynamics which have been completely jinxed by my uBPD SIL (brother’s wife).

Jareth89 referring to my post has encouraged me to write an update on where I have got to with our family situation.  See below...

FourWinds' has pretty much described my sil's influence on my brother in this link https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=305795.0  The similarities in the stories are astounding.This is much more than the simple, normal healthy distancing that goes on in marriage, because it's bpd behaviour and it's an abusive relationship. I know what a healthy one looks like, my elder brother had a normal marriage...but he always maintained a loving connection to his siblings and FOO, his wife never saw his family as threat because she wasn't mentally ill and therefore didn't try to destroy those precious bonds. My sil's behaviour has absolutely nothing to do with the normal distancing that occurs after marriage.

I have been subjected to years of indescribably rude, toxic, demeaning and disrespectful behaviour from the SIL (and my brother supports and enables her and he has become more and more sneering and unkind towards me).  Most of this is behaviour is covert passive aggressive and it is highly manipulative.  Now my safest approach it to assume that every interaction has some underhand motive which is designed to either devalue me or to gain something of value from me. Almost every interaction has some negative sting aimed at me.  This upset me so much that I became quite obsessed with the situation.  My husband who is fairly relaxed and easy going became very irritated with me as he felt I was changing into a different person always going on about it and worrying far more than normal.  The only way to survive this situation has been to basically reduce contact and to work on becoming a smaller and smaller target.  I dont share any details of our lives anymore and we keep conversations very light hearted to avoid drama at all costs.  When the barbs and arrows are directed at me I try to ignore them or just laugh them off and basically I decided that I had to develop immunity in order to survive as I was NOT going to let her make me miserable any longer.  Now I am in a much happier and better place as I have made huge changes.

I miss my brother enormously, I miss who he used to be, perhaps that person is still in there somewhere.   But he has been removed.  Not just from his FOO but also from his closest friends who the SIL makes it impossible for him to spend any time with.  This means he never gets any reality checks and therefore only believes her distorted and twisted version of reality.  She tells him that they are in a “private marriage” therefore he should only ever listen to her.  And he believes this! 

Anyway, my mantra now is - His Wife, His Life - and I have had to come to the realisation that to interfere would make matters much much worse.  At least we still have a tenuous link, the lines of communication are still open (although all forms of communication are monitored at all times by her).  The SIL would love nothing more than for me to raise my head above the parapet so she can then create a huge drama and then enact the final solution.  Total cutoff.

[Four Winds]

Hello, It’s been a while since I last posted here but I have been coming to this site regularly as I find it helps me to settle my ongoing feelings of disquiet, concerns, worry and anxiety about our family dynamics which have been completely jinxed by my uBPD SIL (brother’s wife).

Jareth89 referring to my post has encouraged me to write an update on where I have got to with our family situation.  See below...

FourWinds' has pretty much described my sil's influence on my brother in this link https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=305795.0  The similarities in the stories are astounding.This is much more than the simple, normal healthy distancing that goes on in marriage, because it's bpd behaviour and it's an abusive relationship. I know what a healthy one looks like, my elder brother had a normal marriage...but he always maintained a loving connection to his siblings and FOO, his wife never saw his family as threat because she wasn't mentally ill and therefore didn't try to destroy those precious bonds. My sil's behaviour has absolutely nothing to do with the normal distancing that occurs after marriage.

I have been subjected to years of indescribably rude, toxic, demeaning and disrespectful behaviour from the SIL (and my brother supports and enables her and he has become more and more sneering and unkind towards me).  Most of this is behaviour is covert passive aggressive and it is highly manipulative.  Now my safest approach it to assume that every interaction has some underhand motive which is designed to either devalue me or to gain something of value from me. Almost every interaction has some negative sting aimed at me.  This upset me so much that I became quite obsessed with the situation.  My husband who is fairly relaxed and easy going became very irritated with me as he felt I was changing into a different person always going on about it and worrying far more than normal.  The only way to survive this situation has been to basically reduce contact and to work on becoming a smaller and smaller target.  I dont share any details of our lives anymore and we keep conversations very light hearted to avoid drama at all costs.  When the barbs and arrows are directed at me I try to ignore them or just laugh them off and basically I decided that I had to develop immunity in order to survive as I was NOT going to let her make me miserable any longer.  Now I am in a much happier and better place as I have made huge changes.

I miss my brother enormously, I miss who he used to be, perhaps that person is still in there somewhere.   But he has been removed.  Not just from his FOO but also from his closest friends who the SIL makes it impossible for him to spend any time with.  This means he never gets any reality checks and therefore only believes her distorted and twisted version of reality.  She tells him that they are in a “private marriage” therefore he should only ever listen to her.  And he believes this! 

Anyway, my mantra now is - His Wife, His Life - and I have had to come to the realisation that to interfere would make matters much much worse.  At least we still have a tenuous link, the lines of communication are still open (although all forms of communication are monitored at all times by her).  The SIL would love nothing more than for me to raise my head above the parapet so she can then create a huge drama and then enact the final solution.  Total cutoff.

[Jareth89]

FourWinds, has your brother ever talked to you about what his wife does behind closed doors or what she demands of him? My own brother shares absolutely nothing with me even though I can see he is suffering. I don't understand why he doesn't come and talk to me privately because he knows I would never say anything to her - I would never put my brother at risk of harm. I can only think that it's bad enough that he doesn't tell me for fear that I will be forced to speak out because the behaviour is so contemptible. I already heard her threaten him with divorce once (it was a fake threat) and it worked in getting him to submit immediately. In Feb of this year after an argument with them both at the house, I told him he was being manipulated and he had a realisation and bowed his head, then I asked him what would his older deceased brother think - same reaction...then because he clearly couldn't face the truth he told me to f-off. Classic denial and interesting to watch. I'm working on bringing him out of the denial so he can get some support and relief privately without his wife knowing. Has your brother ever divulged any great details to you, acknowledged that something is terribly amiss?

Does your brother miss you? I can't imagine cutting off my brother, these situations are so terrible...I don't ever understand how my brother could be persuaded to act in a manner which would dissolve family relations. It's just so alien to me. I don't even think I accept this is happening in my own family. Like you said she's jinxed the family dynamics and this situation is not tenable for me. What is so scary is that she is not the same person I used to know...she really underwent a metamorphosis.

[Four Winds]

Jareth89 hello, my brothers overwhelming emotion is one of shame.  I think deep down inside he is just so ashamed of his wife’s off behaviour and his only way of dealing with it all is to try and cover it up, deny, deny, deny and pretend its not happening, nothing to see here, everything’s fine, everything’s all good!  I have overheard him say to the kids on more than one occasion when his wife was dysregulating.. “dont talk about it, dont say a word.  The kids are terrified of her and so is he. 

[Four Winds]

Yes, he also has the divorce threats.  His wife informed him that he must choose. His family of origin (me and my mother), or her.  In fact, she has boasted to friends (who later related this back to me - the friends he is no longer allowed to see) that she insisted that he choose, her or us.  Yes, I can write a book about her crazy nonsense. 

The SIL’s main game is to isolate him from me.  This gives her even better control.  Every opportunity is taken by her to put distance between my brother and myself.  She is absolutely determined to break our brother-sister bond and in a moment of emotional breakdown he admitted that this was her intention.  Jareth89 you being your brother’s twin makes you an even bigger threat to her need for control and her underlying fear of abandonment.  You will always be her main target and her likely game plan is for you to be deleted from his life.  She will be using every possible opportunity to turn him against you and to damage your relationship to the point that it can never be retrieved.  Once I realised her gameplan in my own situation (but its taken years for me to get here), I feel now much better able to manage the situation. 

My strategy now is to try and avoid any opportunities for her to dig the knife into me.  When I speak to my brother, I never mention her, never discuss anything contentious about her, avoid the elephant in the room and try to keep the conversations lighthearted and cheerful.  All I want out of this mess and family disaster is for him to know that his sister will always love him regardless of all the bombs and handgrenades she throws at me and I will do everything in my power to keep being a loving and positive presence in his life and his children’s life.  As the kids grow up and become more independent, my feeling is that her power over him might diminish (but that might be just wishful thinking...)

[Jareth89]

But why exactly does she want to break the brother-sister bond? Because I can tell him the truth and give him a reality check so that he is no longer susceptible to her manipulations and distortions? Is it because the affection between me and him is seen as a threat to her marriage and this triggers abandonment fears (does she think he fancies me?). Is devaluing me (or any target) something they can bond over and thus diminish her abandonment fears? My brother is in a 3-person narc cult basically (her and her parents), so I need to shatter his delusion soon otherwise he will be in far too deep and I will lose him. Will be interesting to see what happens when he sets down boundaries...he will need a therapist and myself to report back to for his own safety I feel. I think the FIL is the dark horse, which concerns me the most. I've already started describing the dynamics to a clinical psych (male) in preparation for some kind of intervention. My parents stalled me for 8 months by accusing me of stirring trouble in the family by wanting to address this issue and they withdrew cooperation...so many arguments. Situation is improved now but it's been a turbulent 8 months even just dealing with my parents.

[Four Winds]

Jareth89, I have been following your previous posts in where you describe your strong intention to inform your twin brother that the situation with his wife is not normal and that it may be related to her having a mental health issue.  Let me fill you in on my own journey with doing just that.

About 8 years ago I was standing in a bookshop overseas and I picked up a book entitled “Stop Walking on Eggshells” by Paul and Kreger.  That book changed my life.  I did not know anything about BPD or NPD, but the book so resonated with our own family situation that I had an epiphany in the bookshop.  Needless to say I then launched into researching and reading up on absolutely everything I could find on the topic so that I could better understand our family’s crazy making situation.  The other book that even more accurately described my brother’s life and our life was “Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist - how to end the drama and get on with your life” by Margalis Fjelstad.  The SIL was a master at creating ridiculous drama over the slightest incident. It was impossible to predict what would or wouldn’t suddenly upset her.  When she split me black she read through all my brothers emails from me to find one with a completely innocent sentence and then decided that she didn’t like this comment and interpreted it as a slight towards her. An email from months before and the comment did not relate to her at all.  I then receive angry and irrational phone calls from my brother accusing me of all sorts of nonsense that I have suddenly upset his wife. I then have to try and defend myself and become completely confused as to how I even got into this situation.  And so it goes, more accusations and then demands for “An Apology”!  Then she really ramps up her awful treatment of me, and my brother is standing shoulder to shoulder with her being even more unpleasant.  I am so horrified and hurt at being the unrelenting target of both of them that I seek counselling of how to deal with this. 

My brother avoids me, he is not answering my calls, he drives past me in his car and pretends he doesnt see me walking along the street. Our invitations to dinner are cancelled at the last minute (...of course after all the food is prepared).  If he does have to see me at a social occasion he ignores me completely and sticks by his wife’s side all evening.  All extremely unkind and cruel treatment designed to upset and harm.  They then badmouth me to friends, etc etc etc...

We were then heading toward Christmas and the big worry was if we would be spending our normal Christmas time together.  My husband then calls my brother to request that he please come and speak to me to sort this out.  My brother has some respect for his brother in law and he agrees to come and speak to me.  He arranged to come by at 1pm, but he appeared only at nearly 5pm after I sat and waited in a state of total anxiety.  I then use this as my opportunity to explain to him what I think is the matter and what I think is behind all this unnecessary drama.  It’s like a curtain falling away from his eyes, he breaks down in tears and he actually agrees that there is a problem, he is aware that things are not right and haven’t been right for some time, he then says he knows he has to do something about this as he fears that she will target the children next. All this had to be done very hurriedly as she was demanding that he had to meet her somewhere and he had to rush off. 

The next day was the worse day ever, overnight she had an enormous extinction burst, the worst rage and drama he had ever experienced.  He then tells me that I am wrong, that no his wife does not have this problem (although he does admit that she she does tick the boxes for some of the criteria for bpd/npd, but definitely not for all of them..). And then it gets worse, much much much worse.  Years of much worse.  Do I regret having told him, I’m not sure.

[Jareth89]

The next day was the worse day ever, overnight she had an enormous extinction burst, the worst rage and drama he had ever experienced.  He then tells me that I am wrong, that no his wife does not have this problem (although he does admit that she she does tick the boxes for some of the criteria for bpd/npd, but definitely not for all of them..). And then it gets worse, much much much worse.  Years of much worse.  Do I regret having told him, I’m not sure.

Was the wife's outburst because he told her about your discussion? Does he share everything you say with her so you can't have a private relationship with him? What caused you to be split black and were you on good terms with her before this or has your relationship with her always been unnatural and strange and do you think she always saw you as an enemy?

[once removed]

This thread was split into another discussion. It continued here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=340045.0

[Jareth89]

I then use this as my opportunity to explain to him what I think is the matter and what I think is behind all this unnecessary drama.  It’s like a curtain falling away from his eyes, he breaks down in tears and he actually agrees that there is a problem, he is aware that things are not right and haven’t been right for some time, he then says he knows he has to do something about this as he fears that she will target the children next...
The next day was the worse day ever, overnight she had an enormous extinction burst, the worst rage and drama he had ever experienced.  He then tells me that I am wrong, that no his wife does not have this problem (although he does admit that she she does tick the boxes for some of the criteria for bpd/npd, but definitely not for all of them..). And then it gets worse, much much much worse.  Years of much worse.  Do I regret having told him, I’m not sure.

No good deed goes unpunished. Your brother is right that 'everything he has worked so hard for regarding her will all be for nothing'...but he is holding onto a terrible delusion and the longer he doesn't face his reality the worse it will become. Then he will have wished he had confronted his fears and worked out a better solution for himself and his children. He even has the support of you and your mother to help him with this. What exactly does his wife bring to the marriage that prevents him from divorcing her and forging a healthy path forward? He has no happy marriage, frightened children and has soured the relationship with his sister and mother. I feel sorry for any man in this situation but he is fighting tooth and nail to stay in the delusion, destroying himself in the process. They say it's never too late but it's undeniable that the clock is ticking for him to get out of this darkness.

Is there any chance you can show him that there are some positive options for him and a light at the end of the tunnel, at least go over the options? Maybe get your husband to talk to him since you said he has respect for him? It seems the children prefer their father rather than their mother, so what is stopping him from divorcing her and starting on that positive path sooner rather than later? Can you introduce him somehow to a professional who can coax him out of this situation...he needs help. How old is he?

[Four Winds]

Jareth89 I feel your pain, I still wake up everyday and my first thought is the problem with my brother and his wife and our destroyed family bonds - and its the last thought when I go to bed at night.  I try very very hard to not ruminate over the problem, but its taken years for me to try and come to terms with this awful situation having caused my mother and I so much hurt and sorrow.  You ask whether my husband couldn’t perhaps have a talk with my brother. Opportunities are not easy to arrange as like in most emotionally abusive relationships the abused victim (my brother) is always under very close surveillance by the abuser (uBPD SIL).  There was an opportunity a while ago, my husband was driving in the car with my brother but as soon as my husband tried to talk about how best to deal with the situation with his wife, my brother demanded that he stop the car and he walked the rest of the way home. 

I have been in a state of grief for the loss of my brother for so many years now.  Every time I see him, I wonder where is he, and who is this unrecognisable person?   He must be in there somewhere hiding, but the question is - has he been so damaged for so long now that his true self can never be regained?

I am sending you positive thoughts and much strength to deal with your situation.  Unfortunately its impossible to know how your twin brother will react when you do decide to go ahead and broach the subject.

[Jareth89]

I still wake up everyday and my first thought is the problem with my brother and his wife and our destroyed family bonds - and its the last thought when I go to bed at night.  I try very very hard to not ruminate over the problem...

I have sympathy FourWinds, I go through the same routine. It's a shame you can't get your brother on his own somehow (maybe feign illness or something) and then strap him down while a psychologist speaks to him for his own good. I met a friend of the family a few days ago and while we were having coffee my jaw dropped as she recounted a story to me about one of her relations who is a mother and was having trouble with her son's wife for over a decade. Everything seemed fine and then trouble started after they were married and had children. Distancing started to occur between the son and his FOO, directed by his wife. The wife started to find fault with his mother and when his sister had a child she didn't want to see the baby and encouraged her husband to distance from his own sister. The mother has never seen the grandchildren for over a decade. When the mother asked the son why he goes along with all this, he stated that he lives in fear that his wife will terminate the marriage and take the children if he disobeys her. His wife even quoted the 'leave and cleave' in the bible to persuade her husband. The mother and son care about each other and the mother, not wanting to put her son in further difficulty, has agreed to bear the pain of his wife's decisions so as to not escalate the situation. The wife's family is fully involved with the grandchildren. Nobody involved is aware that the reason behind the wife's behaviour is because she has a PD.

I don't think it's right that a PD drops into the family they marry into and then later breaks that family apart (after all the generosity) while their own FOO gets to stay together! I don't think so!

[Notwendy]

I feel for all of you too. This was my father with my BPD mother. She sees people as either on her side or not her side. Doesn’t matter if you are parent, child, or sibling to my father. If she sees you as not on her side then my father had to choose her or that person. He chose her every time.

I agree it’s wrong for a spouse to do that to their spouse - and the spouses family. I think the “leave and cleave “ statemgr is misused and out of context. What about “honor your mother and father ?”  What about the Golden Rule?

Why does the person with PD do that? Fear of abandonment, victim mode. If someone’s in victim mode they don’t consider that they are hurting someone else. They are grasping at anything to meet their own needs.

My Dad made his choice. I tried to intervene. It didn’t seem to make a difference.

I think the his wife his life is a good coping skill. As much as we care about them- if they really don’t want it, I don’t know what else to do.

[Four Winds]

Thank you NotWendy, your thoughts on this site have provided me with much wisdom and support in the past and are very appreciated. My interactions with my brother are not normal any longer, he avoids me and he seems fearful and uncomfortable when I am around.  Strangely, on the rare occasion when his wife is away or not around, he seems even more distant and rejecting.  It’s almost as if she has primed him or threatened him with punishment that he must have nothing to do with his family if she leaves him unattended.  Generally trying to make arrangements to get together become very complicated and he always has to check with her first. Plenty of excuses usually forthcoming - too busy etc etc, yet they very rarely go out anywhere and they dont seem to see their few friends anymore.  Like your father, I see my brother ending up in the same sad situation, its his choice and nothing I say or do will make a difference. 

[Notwendy]

Four Winds, I think the discomfort around you is his own knowing better, even guilt, but he can't face that and stay in his relationship. Being in my mother's circle, one has to also buy into her reality. It's possible to do this if you are not in an intimate relationship with her. Her friends and other relatives have not seen the side of her that I see. But my father did.

I think this set up a cognitive dissonance for him. She's either crazy or she's not. And at times she isn't. There's a side to my mother that is wonderful- she's beautiful, intelligent, and that's the side he fell in love with. That's the side she shows to others.

But when she's dysregulated- oh boy    

Once the dysregulations are over, it's almost as if she has amnesia to what happened, or wants you to have it too. Then you have to pretend. And I think over time, my father pretended so much that it became easier for him to do so.

But you know better. Your brother does too, but I think it is painful for him to face what is going on. I think it is easier for him to avoid the reminder and you are a reminder.

When my father died, my mother painted me black to her relatives and told them to not speak to me. They didn't. I don't know what she said to them about me- and she likely painted me black to my father too. I considered contacting her relatives to clear the air, and set the story straight, but then I thought about it- they can't believe us both. Either I am what she says I am, or she's a liar. That would put them in the position to choose between two incompatible realities. We can't both be right. One of us is a liar. And the stage was set to believe her, not me.

So I gave up and didn't contact them about that, but I admit, that was difficult and it made me sad to think I lost these relationships. I did run into them from time to time at family events and remained cordial, and polite.

Recently though, one of them made contact with me. I am treading carefully with this- not sure I trust them, but I also think they have seen enough now and realize what she said about me is not true. I am careful to not say anything about my mother to them. I don't want to get on that drama triangle.

I think the conclusion that family members in your brother's situation have come to has been "his wife, his life" and in my situation it's that whoever is in my mother's circle is someone I keep a polite distance from--- until they come to their own conclusions if they do that. I think they keep a door open- so their family member can contact them if they choose to, communicating in emotionally neutral terms if possible. Like you could text your brother "happy birthday" or something not emotional. He can respond if he wants or not.

I don't know if it is the only way to manage this or even if it is the right way, but I think we can choose to not be part of the drama.

[zachira]

Some good advice from Notwendy. I find the most challenging part is to not create triangles by talking to any of the relatives and friends about my mother and siblings with BPD. Notwendy is right in that it puts the person involved in the position of having to make a choice about what and who to believe. People really don't like feeling pressured into believing another's story; they would much rather be left to making up their own mind based on their own experiences. With my relatives and family friends who are the most open minded, I find that they don't believe everything I say, simply because I am a different person from them, so of course, we are not going to see things exactly the same ways. On the other hand, my mother's and siblings' circle seem to lack critical thinking and impartial observation skills, and take in everything that they are told as if it were the absolute truth, very borderline behaviors.

[Notwendy]

I just act polite and civil around the people in my mother's circle. She has won over her neighbors. I was visiting and they came over, with their children. She was an entirely different person when they were around and acted like mother of the year with the kids.

I don't fear them asking her to babysit as she is too elderly to do that. So the kids are safe as their parents visit with them.

It's a pretty eerie experience to see her act like this. There is no way they would believe me if I told them about the behaviors I saw.

With my father, it was more complicated. He was not a person who lacked critical thinking. He was a well educated and brilliant man. He just chose to adapt to her reality. They were enmeshed and I think became more so over time. I also think love had something to do with it. No matter how much a parent, child or sibling loves their family member, it is much different than a romantic bond.

One thing I did learn is that nobody on the outside of a romantic bond can fully know or understand what ties two people together. I only know that whatever this was with my parents was stronger than any other bond my father had with anyone else, even if he did love his family too.

[Jareth89]

He was not a person who lacked critical thinking. He was a well educated and brilliant man. He just chose to adapt to her reality. They were enmeshed and I think became more so over time. I also think love had something to do with it. No matter how much a parent, child or sibling loves their family member, it is much different than a romantic bond.

One thing I did learn is that nobody on the outside of a romantic bond can fully know or understand what ties two people together. I only know that whatever this was with my parents was stronger than any other bond my father had with anyone else, even if he did love his family too.

NotWendy I think he chose to adapt to her reality not because he didn't have a brain, but because he couldn't use it due to his emotional weakness. It's his weakness and fear of being alone I think that prevented him from looking at his options. I agree that it's difficult to understand what ties two people together, but what ties someone to a personality disordered person cannot be normal. It's not love. Your father's weakness and any other codependent's weakness prevents them from acting virtuously...and that is very destructive. Normal, healthy romantic bonds are strong but they do not destroy familial bonds. The ties that bind are the wounds which incidentally remain bleeding in these relationships. A shocking sad truth.

[Notwendy]

I agree that my father had traits that also bonded him to my mother. I would say that most people who are in relationships with pwBPD and who want to make some changes need to do some personal work.

However, to call his behavior not virtuous is incorrect. He was a product of his era where there was little known about BPD and mental illness was not discussed. It was also a time where there was confidence in psychiatry. He had hope that there would be a treatment for her, and provided it. He would not know that is wasn't going to be successful for a long time.

This was also the era where in a divorce, complete custody went to the mother. My mother would be able to hold it together in court. He stayed so he would have more contact with us kids. He also stayed out of obligation to her and out of fear, she had attempted suicide at least once.

I would not call him not virtuous. Selfless to a flaw and having no knowledge of BPD he did the best he could with what he knew at the time. My mother was the emotionally neediest one in the family.  There was only so much he could manage. Yes, he made some errors, but he did a lot of good and without malicious intent.

As critical as you feel about your brother, he is in a difficult situation and he's trying to do the best he can with it. He may have some issues that predispose him to this kind of relationship, but I doubt he is in it because he's not a good person and isn't trying to do the right thing for her, at least what he thinks the right thing is.

[Four Winds]

I agree with Notwendy and zachira, my take is also that my brother is trying his absolute best to be there for his family and for his kids even if this means he has to tolerate the machinations and manipulations of his wife.  Although it seems that he must be so weak that he is not able to stand up to her, perhaps one could look at it another way, that he is the strong one and she is the weak one and he has to do everything he possibly can to keep propping her up.  My brother has told me before that he has to “keep putting out fires” referring to the awful and difficult situations she creates.  Living like this must take a certain amount of strength and those of us that care have no way of knowing what their lives must be like.  In fact he has said to me on more than one occasion, “you and mom have no idea what my life is like”.

[Notwendy]

He's right. I do have an idea, because I grew up with it.

I understand co-dependency, since I learned this behavior growing up and have done considerable personal work on my own co-dependent traits.

But it's different from weakness or lack of moral strength.

I once saw my father as my mother's victim. But once I began to work on my own co-dependent traits, I understood the situation better. I struggled with the term "dependent" but it doesn't mean that in the way it is used most. It helped to see this in terms of a science experiment. One variable changes when the other one changes. Likewise, the co-dependent person is more reactive than active- they focus on their partner's moods, feelings, wishes more than they do on their own.

But if we looked at who was dependent, it is my mother. She didn't work. She didn't do much of anything- we did it for her or she had help. I know my father worried about what would happen to her if he was not there to help her. Despite her cruel behavior at times, he did care about her.

Although it was hurtful to have my mother interfere with my relationship with my father, I can see that what he experienced was difficult. I wished better for him.

[Four Winds]

Yet, despite the compassion and understanding we feel towards the enabling partner, (in this instance your deceased father Notwendy and in mine, my brother), how does this exonerate them from the cruel and hurtful behaviour that they have directed (and in my case continue to direct) at us? How does this provide them with an excuse to keep on being mean, dismissive and at times downright nasty to us in order to keep on reassuring the chosen BPD partners that THEY are the priority and we are not?  I dont wish to be a priority in my brother’s life, I just wish for things to be more normal.

[Notwendy]

I agree- they are not excused from their own behavior.

I think this comes down to a similar difficult choice. What do we do when someone we are in a relationship with is abusive towards us?

You are, in an odd way, experiencing a bit of what your brother experiences. He loves his wife, his wife is abusive. You love your brother and your brother mistreats you.

These are not easy choices, nor are they IMHO, win -win. I think they involve losses on our part. We stay in the relationship and endure the treatment? We set boundaries and so risk losing the relationship? We walk away from it- choose NC, or Low contact (LC).

Is it fair? No. Is it right or ok? No. But I can't change my mother. I only could choose to not allow her to be abusive to me. If I didn't go along with her, my father got angry at me. Even though his situation was difficult, he was abusive to me too, maybe not directly all the time, but sometimes, he was verbally abusive and mean.

On my part, I had to keep a distance emotionally. It helped to have support- counseling, 12 step groups for co-dependency. But it came down to self love, self respect too. No matter how much I care about someone, this doesn't give them license to be abusive to me.

For family members, I choose LC. It's not really possible to completely avoid seeing family members if we stay connected to any of them. There are usually events like holidays, or weddings, or things like that. I am also LC with my mother. This is basically polite, superficial, not engaging in their drama. For your brother, it means not giving him the opportunity to treat you poorly. If he yells at you, saying something like " I need to go to the ladies' room, see you later" and walking away. If it's on the phone "oops, the UPS man needs me to sign for a package" and hang up. Yes, it's not completely honest, but it's non confrontational. It's not being an audience for his emotional garbage. It's not fueling the drama. The Karpman triangle dynamics has helped me understand it.

The other side is the loss of the relationship and that part is hard. As to the right or wrong thing- I think it is very cruel for a pwBPD to separate a family, but my mother has been capable of doing this. I don't condone it but I find forgiveness to be a better way to manage for me than anger. This doesn't mean I allow her to be abusive to me.

[zachira]

From my perspective, it seems to boil down to being the best person you can be while having healthy boundaries with dysfunctional family members. You can be a role model for your brother by having healthy boundaries with him and his wife, while continuing to be a person that earns the respect of others.

[Notwendy]

I agree with you Zachira- it's about our own boundaries- and knowing who we are despite what the pwBPD or our relatives want to believe. I have tried to take that path- and people who want to get to know me can contact me. I don't think I have the power to change a person's thinking.

I also think each person has their own karma so to speak. My mother is a complicated person with good traits and also she has done some very hurtful things. I don't want to allow her to be abusive towards me, but I am also not her judge, or my father's judge.

[Four Winds]

Notwendy and Zachira you are so right, this approach of being the best person you can be has taken a lot of the sting out of dealing with it.  I have learnt so much from this site and also from the literature and it has been a saviour for both myself and my mother.  When the SIL is rude and hostile to us, we now try really hard to respond calmly and to not engage.  I have pulled my brother up on occasions and calmly requested that he please stop being so nasty and so sarcastic. I have asked him why does he keep on doing it, why is it necessary, and how does this help him by being so ugly to his FOO? He once replied that it was part of his strategy but didn’t enlarge on this any further. Writing this has reminded me of his comment, I now understand much more what he actually meant by this.

[Jareth89]

I have pulled my brother up on occasions and calmly requested that he please stop being so nasty and so sarcastic. I have asked him why does he keep on doing it, why is it necessary, and how does this help him by being so ugly to his FOO? He once replied that it was part of his strategy but didn’t enlarge on this any further. Writing this has reminded me of his comment, I now understand much more what he actually meant by this.

What did he mean that being nasty, sarcastic and ugly to his FOO was part of his strategy? What did he mean by this?

[Jareth89]

What did he mean that being nasty, sarcastic and ugly to his FOO was part of his strategy? What did he mean by this?

FourWinds above you wrote how does this provide them with an excuse to keep on being mean, dismissive and at times downright nasty to us in order to keep on reassuring the chosen BPD partners that THEY are the priority and we are not

This is what I meant when I said the enabler is not virtuous - he is allowing his morals and integrity to be compromised. Are you saying that his nastiness to you is a conscious deliberate strategy and not the result of brainwashing or spinelessness? Is your brother still like this when you are just alone without his wife? Why can't he just remain neutral and not comment when his wife is being rude, or are you saying that he has to show hostility to you in her presence to demonstrate his allegiance to her?

So now I understand the comment the father-in-law made to me as he smirked 'A rare compliment from your brother Lucy! Write that one down in your book...'   They are playing him like a mouse. Little Fockers.

[Harri]

Thread has reached the post limit and has been locked and split.  Part 2 is here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=340393.msg13083777#msg13083777

Thank you.