It can be exhausting being in a relationship with a pwBPD

[Cat Familiar]

Currently I have very little to complain about. That wasn't always the case in the past.

The reason for this topic is that I'm feeling a bit rundown and physically and emotionally exhausted today. I took some time to relax and meditate and question what I was feeling. What occurred to me was that I was feeling a bit burned out after yesterday, when my husband was sullen and shutdown. It wasn't directed at me, but it still felt toxic just being around him.

I had to smile when we went out to dinner and our server was taking our order and after he got mine, he turned to my husband and said, "And what will the happy camper have?"

My husband immediately lashed out at him, "What's that all about?" and then began a slow return to some semblance of normalcy, or at least trying somewhat to feign it. "It was a rough day," he said.

Really the only external issue all day that I noticed was the neighbor kids on dirt bikes making some noise in the afternoon.

Even though I wasn't the target, when he gets into one of his black moods, it really sucks to be around him. I attempted to ask him what he was feeling and the most I got out of him was that he was concerned because we haven't had any rain for a month.

How about y'all? Do you ever feel rundown just being around your loved one?

[GaGrl]

Not about my spouse, but I have noticed that I am in a funk the past week or two myself. I think the level of caretaking that my 93 year old mother requires is wearing on me. In the three weeks since we returned from vacation (a bucket list, once-in-a-lifetime trip), my mother has had rechecks on skin cancer surgery and a tooth extraction that required an EKG and regulation of the blood thinner she takes. So 5 out of 5 days last week were doctor appointments. As I had considered returning to part-time work in 2020, I'm now realizing that might not be practical.

So, bottom line...is it the caretaking and a sense of loss of personal freedom? This has layers.

[Cat Familiar]

I wouldn’t give up on your plan to return to part time work yet, GaGrl. I understand how your time can be gobbled up with Mom’s medical appointments and home care. Have you thought of hiring a part time aide?

I did that when I took care of my mother. It really helped me to have some freedom, knowing that she was being looked after. And as disagreeable as my mother was, it was nice to have the validation through exchanged glances and knowing smiles.

[GaGrl]

Mom has a caregiver three mornings a week, but she is having surgery soon for squamous cell skin cancer that will require a skin graft. So I need a temp lined up, or I just need to tough it out til after the holidays.

[Cat Familiar]

Definitely get a temp!

[MidLifCrysis1]

Do you ever feel rundown just being around your loved one?

Yes...of course. :-(

So, when not walking on eggshells, and instead am in the aware-that-gloom-is-coming (or happening) and have no ability to stop it situations is when I get the rundown and hopeless feelings flooding in.

As much as they can be unpredictably responsive, they can sometimes also be the opposite, right? When situations come along that I know are high-risk for triggering her, I sometimes worry/fear and sometimes go straight to downtrodden. Maybe it's my lack of expertise in tactics to help, or maybe not, but at these times, when they are casting their aura of negativity out like a stormcloud, I definitely can fall into despair and exhaustion.

It's situational, but given the proper configuration of events/environment, there's a very strong probability that I will have to contend with such feelings within myself.

I have found that the more prone I am to this state, the more it indicates that I have let self-care slip recently. A little bit of refreshing atmosphere/activity/company/whatever seems to recharge my defenses against this state. Just a thought...

 

 - MLC

[GaGrl]

Great insight! I think packing a change of scene is something at play with me.

[Wulphesse]

Oh yes. The fatigue.

On top of regular life tired, there's living with a pwBPD.

Both of us work full time. My D14 figure skates. I get up at 4 am to take her to the rink (usually I'm grateful I get to do it, what a luxury, how special to spend every morning together). She also plays soccer and (now) hockey -- so after work I pick her up and take her to the field, or the rink, and then home. Again, I'm usually grateful to hear about her day, or just be in the same car with her.
Some of the fatigue is fed by the cultural gender divide, which he happily reinforces. Mom does the cooking, house cleaning, grocery shopping, doctors' appointments, dentists, parent-teacher conferences, coordinating whenever she needs to get somewhere, birthdays, holidays, etc.

My H cleans the kitchen up -- or tells D14 to do it -- and complains about doing it, or complains its not done; and this year he started picking her up from school 1-2x a week, which is huge, and I thank him every time.

But living with the constant hostility and impenetrable stonewall is draining. Trying to keep a positive attitude at work, with other parents at the rink, with myself just to avoid sinking in the dark quicksand, it's difficult. And that's when I'm not trying some emotional judo to deescalate or sidestep the rage!

[MidLifCrysis1]

In the context of taking small points of positivity whenever possible, I just wanted to share the  I got from reading

trying some emotional judo

While this maybe isn't really something to smile about having to do, the phrasing was enjoyable.

Thank you Wulphesse.

[Wulphesse]

Thanks MidLifCrysis1,

Glad you got a 
I'm trying to recognize how much my phrasing influences my attitude about situations, so "judo" feels more positive than "contortionism" even when my initial reaction is a sigh and an eye roll.

[Cat Familiar]

Perhaps because I’ve been reading Jordan Peterson’s 12 Rules for Life: An Antidote to Chaos https://www.penguinrandomhouse.ca/books/258237/12-rules-for-life-by-jordan-b-peterson--foreword-by-norman-doige-md-illustrated-by-ethan-van-sciver/9780345816023 , I’m now thinking of some of these difficulties with our pwBPD loved ones through the lens of millions of years of evolutionary biology as examples of the dominance hierarchy.

Simplified, many of us who are codependents prefer to get along rather than fight. In an ideal relationship, this would be a good strategy. However, in a relationship with an individual who sees things in extremes of black and white, right and wrong, we could be placing ourselves at a serious disadvantage.

I’m not saying that fighting is the answer, rather having good boundaries is often sufficient to keep others from taking advantage of us and lowering our stock in the dominance hierarchy.

When I hold tight to my self assurance and have strong boundaries, I don’t feel so depleted. I realize that my recent bout of running on empty is related to trying to elicit conversation from my husband when he was busy being sullen and distant.

Had I merely ignored the mood he was so fully projecting outward, I wouldn’t have found myself in this predicament. That said, it is challenging when you’re in a car and out on date night when one's partner is behaving this way.

I was annoyed and uncomfortable that he wouldn’t just bring a pleasant demeanor to the moment, so I attempted to ask him questions, hoping to elicit an answer about his uncomfortable behavior.

By doing so, I lowered my stock in the dominance hierarchy and our shared experience became entirely about his black mood.

[waverider]

You cant jump start someone else when your own battery is nearly flat.

The real trick is learning to monitor your own energy levels, and have a reliable source of charge to keep them topped up when required. Otherwise you will end up not wanting to even get out of the bed in the morning and on the the rocky road to depression

[Notwendy]

WW makes a great point.

I need time to myself to recharge.

I think Cat's point about not liking to put up a fight is a good one too. I find I have had to toughen up a bit. It's my nature to be easy going, but if we are in a relationship with someone who isn't, then being easygoing and accommodating doesn't work well sometimes. So having to monitor ourselves takes some work.

I also think some of us were raised in dysfunction. For survival, we needed to learn to be sensitive to other people's feelings. I know that I needed to be aware of my BPD mother's moods. If mother was in a bad mood, we knew to stay clear. So I think we can be sensitive to the moods and feelings of other people around us. If they are in a bad mood, we can sense it. That may not bother people who didn't grow up in different situation as much.

[Wulphesse]

 
I was reading Cat's post, thinking "why yes, I can be self assured and not pick up the rope."

AND THEN ... H called to discuss logistics about a VERY POSITIVE thing (D invited to join a team) and dysregulated himself into hanging up on me. Literally VERBATIM:

H made statement: Okay, so it looks like the team plays in two different divisions.

Me: Yes, that's right.

H: Nevermind, you just took over the conversation. We can't talk about this anymore. You never let anyone talk. You always need to control the conversation. You just took over to prove you were right.

Me: [trying, and evidently failing to use SET]: I want to hear what you have to say. It sounds like you don't feel I was listening to you or you feel invalidated. I said "yes" because you were right. I was trying to validate your statement (I know, too much explaining here, too much JADE). I would like to hear what you have to say.

H: No, we can't discuss anything because you just take over. [hangs up].

... and now I'm sitting at my desk shaking and trying to breathe and focus and practice mindfulness.

And we were JUST trying to talk about a GOOD HAPPY THING!

[MidLifCrysis1]

It happens to the best of us - and everyone else too...

You just have to let it go and remember that it was NOT something that you did wrong.

There is simply no way to avoid those kinds of interactions 100% of the time.

I get it A LOT. I just shake my head in baffled disbelief and try NOT to dwell on the missing out of positivity.

So sorry. 

 - MLC

[Wulphesse]

Thank you!

That's just such a HUGE help!

[zachira]

What you are describing is the hallmark of a relationship with any person with BPD and/or NPD. It is just exhausting and frustrating with some days being worse than others. What do you do for self care? Who do you have in your life that does validate you, and there is a balanced amount of give and take?

[Cat Familiar]

You cant jump start someone else when your own battery is nearly flat.

Awesome metaphor! Thank you, waverider  

It’s easy to let our serotonin levels slip with too much stress, too little self care, and the shortening day length in the northern hemisphere this time of year.

Some times we don’t even recognize when our battery is depleted until we have a less than optimal interaction with our BPD loved one. And then, rather than castigating ourselves for not doing better, we merely need to do something that recharges our energy.

[Leah66]

Hi Cat,
I have been going through the same sort of thing, except my husband  lashes out at me when he is in that kind of mood. Sometimes it lasts a day sometimes on and off for a month. I understand it is draining and seems to use up all my energy.
Then things are good for a while.
I have to tell myself it is his problem and not me. Easier said than done.
Hang in there enjoy the sunnier days (not necessarily the weather). Hope this helps.
Ps I have a lovely cat just like your picture.

[Cat Familiar]

Since I just got through working with my mare in the arena, I had some thoughts about dominance hierarchy, dealing with disagreeable individuals, and keeping one’s center.

Today is an exceptionally windy day and all the sounds and movements of trees and leaves blowing by can make horses frightened and jumpy, in other words using the feeling side of the brain, rather than the thinking side. Sound like some of our BPD loved ones when they’re dysregulating?

Horses want strong leaders. Seeking leadership happens in the wild, as well as in smaller domestic herds. One individual, usually an older mare, is looked to by the herd to make decisions about safety, when to run and when to defend. Many people assume that a stallion is in charge of the group, but stallions come and go, being regularly replaced in the wild by younger, more physically powerful specimens.

However, being at the top of the herd, whether the boss mare or the head stallion, comes with a price. Other members of the group are constantly testing, making sure that this individual is up to the task.

It’s the same with humans and our domestic horses. They constantly assess us to make sure that we are strong, competent leaders. And if they find us lacking, they take matters into their own hooves, often much to our peril.

It’s part of their ancestral DNA, needing to know that we are reliable and will make good decisions that keep them safe.

I’m seeing some of the same patterns with pwBPD. Often those of us who are codependent end up in a relationship with a pwBPD. They admire us at the beginning for being so accepting of them, but over time, often lose respect for us for the same reason.

I’ve mentioned previously that boundaries help to alleviate some of this potential disrespect, but I think there is another component that is difficult to quantify. Self esteem describes it somewhat but there’s more to it.

It’s a sense of knowing that what one thinks and feels is valid and a sense of trust about doing one’s best at any moment, but knowing what is “best” can evolve with learning and wisdom. It’s accepting that making “mistakes” is part of learning and the best strategy is to fully understand and move on, chalking up the situation to wisdom gained through experience.

It’s also how one carries oneself, having body language that demonstrates confidence and self acceptance. All that old boss mare has to do to an unruly young upstart is to give a sudden head jerk with a harsh glance and that young challenger will quickly retreat with a rueful apologetic demeanor.

As codependents or recovering codependents, I feel that our desire to be accepted or approved of, can signal a lack of self esteem to our pwBPD. If we are perceived as weak, or lacking certainty, we are not the strong people they crave, due to their own uncertain sense of self.

And perhaps that’s where the power dynamic shift begins and as we lose status in their eyes, we try even harder to be accommodating to their needs, which for someone who has difficulty articulating who they are and what they want, can lead us further into the black hole of relationship breakdown.

Thoughts?

[Cat Familiar]

Hi Cat,
I have been going through the same sort of thing, except my husband  lashes out at me when he is in that kind of mood. Sometimes it lasts a day sometimes on and off for a month. I understand it is draining and seems to use up all my energy...

Ps I have a lovely cat just like your picture.

Leah what do you do when your husband lashes out at you? Can you give an example of an interaction you’ve had?

I seem to be a black cat magnet. I’ve got 3 all black ones and 2 black and white tuxedos. 

[Leah66]

Hi Cat,
Thanks for replying. I try not to J.A.D.E, but not always successful. If I am cheerful and matter of fact it seems to help. I have to remind myself not to argue and not get sucked in to his provocation.
If I am wrong it is better to admit it, but not say  sorry if I'm not.
Hope you are doing OK today. Say hi to your cats.

[Notwendy]

I can relate to the analogy with the horses. I think it requires firm boundaries and with a horse, sometimes being stern and commanding is required. However, for me, that isn't my nature. I'm easy going and have a collaborative nature.  With my close friends, there was a reciprocal situation- we do it your way then next time, my way. I didn't to stand up for myself.

Match this with a "my way" person and I tended to go along with it for the sake of peace. But there isn't a reciprocal relationship. Eventually we can get lost- lose our sense of self in this situation.

Kind of like riding a horse and only letting the horse decide where to go. On the other hand, pulling too tight on the bit and using a switch too much isn't good either. It's a give and take relationship with a horse too. We need to respect the horse's nature.

My nature is to be easygoing and enjoy a give and take. But I think there are people who see this as weakness and don't respect people like this. To use the animal analogy, I have had to learn to have  a stronger hide, to not be so sensitive. On the other hand, I think this is a good thing. Growing up with my BPD mother, I wasn't allowed to have boundaries. It was good to learn them.

[Ozzie101]

This is a really awesome discussion. Cat, I love the horse analogy.

My H and I were talking just last night about mistakes and choices, how it's OK to make mistakes but it's also important to learn from them and grow. How, growing up, it was drilled into him that mistakes were bad and could reflect badly on the family name, etc.

One pattern I've noticed with H is that he looks to me a LOT to make decisions. Sometimes it's something small like what to have for dinner. Then, when he's in a mood, if there's anything slightly at fault, he'll blame me -- either with anger or passive-aggressive comments.

But sometimes it's big things. He's going through a rough time right now with his family. He keeps telling me that he really wants to publicly shame and blast them on Facebook. Tells me other people are telling him he should. I disagree, for a number of reasons. Yet, despite his desire and the validation he's getting from other people, he still hasn't done it. And, I suspect, part of the reason is that he's waiting for my OK.

He can't stand being wrong -- understandable given the way he was brought up. So, if I make the choice or back up his decision, if it then turns around and bites him, he can point to someone else.

When we were discussing the situation and I truthfully told him I didn't know how it was all going to end, he told me that really scared him -- that I didn't know.

You know, looking back on it, our relationship started to really improve when I started to stiffen my own backbone and started to set boundaries. Maybe my acquiescence and fear were just making him respect me less.

[MidLifCrysis1]

As codependents or recovering codependents, I feel that our desire to be accepted or approved of, can signal a lack of self esteem to our pwBPD. If we are perceived as weak, or lacking certainty, we are not the strong people they crave, due to their own uncertain sense of self.

And perhaps that’s where the power dynamic shift begins and as we lose status in their eyes, we try even harder to be accommodating to their needs, which for someone who has difficulty articulating who they are and what they want, can lead us further into the black hole of relationship breakdown.

Epiphany!

So, of course, I'm still learning to navigate the alien terrain of Borderland and this one is something I've not managed to work out thusfar.

My pwBPD has literally verbalized to me several times about how my demeanor or state is causing her disruption/concern/disturbance and a lack of providing her strength, safety, and a foundation.

I've been like, "Uh...OK...sorry. I'm just kinda down a little today. No big deal."

You know, same thing she is like sometimes and says almost the identical reply to me when I inquire if she's doing alright. Of course, it doesn't work the same both directions...since obviously it IS a big deal on her side of the wormhole.

Thanks for the insight, Cat!

[Wulphesse]

GREAT analogy, Cat!

I'm a horsewoman too, so reading

Since I just got through working with my mare in the arena, I had some thoughts about dominance hierarchy, dealing with disagreeable individuals, and keeping one’s center.

was PERFECT.

When my office situation was toxic, a mentor of mine suggested viewing my co-workers as horses -- since horses have different personalities and quirks, just like people, and need to get along in a herd.

I think I struggle more with my H. Sometimes I can "gentle" him, the way one might with a young horse, but I get in a world of hurt if I try to be the Boss Mare. He simply will not accept it. And that's where it gets dicey. Horses don't rage. They bully, they jostle for power, they fight with each other, but they don't target one another -- or even a handler -- in the same way my H targets me. While I *know* it's not TRULY personal (he would treat anyone he was with the same way, eventually) -- when the switch flips he becomes a homing missile. I've only known one horse like it: a stallion who was badly abused by a man at some point in his life. He couldn't be handled or ridden by men, and we couldn't let men into his stall even to clean. He'd try to kill them. Literally.

On the other hand, part Ozzie's point about decisions hits home as well. H has trouble being decisive about anything -- the dinner example is a good one. However, he doesn't look to me in the same way she described -- except when he is looking to BLAME. He does this with simple things and more complex ones. I posted about an example yesterday, in fact. One friend said he had a "slow processor": he hates being on a short time frame (if he's famished, for instance). But he also can't bring himself to plan ahead [executive function]. His reaction to either is to lash out, blame, attack, and then seethe.

As a result, I'm afraid to assert myself at all anymore (truly ironic if you knew me!) and at the same time I'm regularly attacked for making anything from minor choices to major life decisions, be they good or bad. As I type this, I see the "no-win", and I realize it's no wonder I've felt so paralyzed.

[GoldenBubble]

That said, it is challenging when you’re in a car and out on date night when one's partner is behaving this way.

YES.  This is what started the most recent crisis.  It was date night and, once again, he started complaining about how he walked in on his exW "f " his best friend.  They have been divorced for 22 years.  BTW, they weren't f .  They were having an inappropriate friendship that eventually led to marriage.  I had the audacity to ask him to quit yelling in the restaurant.  And then the next day he accusing me of flirting at the nightclub.  Apparently it's my duty on date night to listen to him complain about how his exes have screwed him over.  Then he's pissed that I don't want to have sex when we get home.

[Cat Familiar]

Obviously the horse analogy falls apart—our loved ones are our peers and we cannot “train” them they way we would a horse. But we can train ourselves how to respond or how not to respond during difficult situations.

Something I’ve learned from horses is how to “move on” and in doing so, hang onto my composure. If a horse is freaking out at some random object along the trail, such as a discarded broken lawn chair, it certainly doesn’t help if I join in that emotion. Though I’m likely to be startled by an extreme response, I have to remember to quiet my body and my mind and do whatever it takes to help the horse calm down, whether it be to repeatedly approach and retreat from the scary object, getting closer and closer with each try or to get the horse to make a series of right and left turns, occupying the thinking side of its brain, and continue spiraling down the trail. And once the “crisis” is past, then all thoughts are back on the present.

How has this learning has translated to my relationship with my husband? When he begins to dysregulate, just like with a horse, I try and notice the first signs and immediately become more present. If I can distract and change the subject, I’ll try that. Perhaps I’ll offer to make an espresso for us. Or maybe I’ll suddenly realize that I have left the water running in the garden or that I need to return a phone call.

Then after the dysregulation is over, I move on and let go of my need to know “What the heck was that all about?”

Of course this pattern is a work in progress and I didn’t follow my own plan in the example I mentioned about date night at the beginning of this thread. What I didn’t realize was that it was a “quiet dysregulation” and I insisted upon interrogating him, trying to find out why he seemed so downtrodden. And in the process of doing so, I inserted myself into his down mood and lowered my own sense of well-being.

[Cat Familiar]

I can relate to the analogy with the horses. I think it requires firm boundaries and with a horse, sometimes being stern and commanding is required. However, for me, that isn't my nature. I'm easy going and have a collaborative nature.

Me too. I have a collaborative nature and I’m easy going, often much to my own detriment. But over time, when I realize that reciprocity is missing, I start getting irritated.

I think it was Clinton Anderson who described the dichotomy of how many people approach horse training. Some are ”nagging mothers” and some tend to be “barbarians”. Of course neither is ideal and both extremes cause untoward consequences.

I doubt that any of us on this site are barbarians with regard to how we treat our loved ones, but I would bet we have some “nagging mothers/fathers”. I’m guilty as charged, but I try not to do that anymore.

My issue (one of them) is about the recycle bin near the house. I take care of the waste basket in the kitchen and the nearby outdoor garbage can and keep them regularly dumped in the main garbage area. My husband volunteered to keep up with the recycling, but though he regularly walks by the small recycling bin on the way to his studio, he never seems to notice that it needs to be emptied, even when it’s overflowing.

Though I went all nagging mother on him a time or two, he still seems blind to bottles and plastic spilling out of the little bin. All it would take is to walk 75 feet and dump it in the trash area, but no, it continues to pile up day after day, until finally he notices it, usually after a gust of wind or a wild animal scatters it around.

Where was the reciprocity? I knew if I started emptying it, it would suddenly become one of my tasks indefinitely. And all my nagging was ineffective; it merely started arguments ending in statements from him like “You don’t like me,” “You don’t appreciate me.”

The only strategy that made sense for me was changing my outlook. I wasn’t going to take on another task, a slippery slope I knew from experience. So I began viewing the overflowing recyclables as a sculpture and tried to add more objects without causing the whole pile to collapse—the inverse of pick up sticks.

Eventually he does take care of it and in the meantime, I’ve eliminated yet another mild irritant that would over time, add up to be an annoyance.

[Cat Familiar]

I get in a world of hurt if I try to be the Boss Mare. He simply will not accept it. And that's where it gets dicey. Horses don't rage. They bully, they jostle for power, they fight with each other, but they don't target one another -- or even a handler -- in the same way my H targets me. While I *know* it's not TRULY personal (he would treat anyone he was with the same way, eventually) -- when the switch flips he becomes a homing missile. I've only known one horse like it: a stallion who was badly abused by a man at some point in his life. He couldn't be handled or ridden by men, and we couldn't let men into his stall even to clean. He'd try to kill them. Literally.

It might help to see your husband through the same lens as that rogue stallion. Perhaps during a vulnerable time in his development he was abused in a very hurtful way. I know my husband was—by his father. Or perhaps a neurological deficit kept him from attaining some maturation step, not allowing him the ability to manage his emotions. It certainly is possible to overcome such disabilities though mindfulness and therapy, but that must be self-initiated, and that can be problematic if the individual is not self aware.

Though you cannot direct him, like a boss mare, it wouldn’t serve your relationship well even if you could. But you can hold onto that sense of self confidence that the boss mare inhabits. And from that point of view, your potential strategies can  multiply and you are not limited to ways you’ve dealt with things in the past.

My husband, like yours, can lose his rationality when he’s hungry. He calls it “bonking” and I believe it has a physiological component as well as a psychological one too—probably low blood sugar.

When you feel attacked, what can you imagine doing differently so that it doesn’t trigger you and you don’t add to his upset?

For the longest time, I tried to talk to my husband when he was dysregulating in the same way that I would talk to a friend who was upset. Though I’ve had a lot of people tell me how much talking with me has helped them, it seemed that everything I tried made things worse with my husband. It wasn’t until I landed here and learned about invalidation (and how easy it is to inadvertently do that) or JADEing (justifying, arguing, defending, explaining),  could I see why all my standard behaviors went so awry with him.