Protecting kids

[pursuingJoy]

Struggling tonight. My H was watching a football game, his team was doing well but a player on the other side did something showboaty... he threw up two middle fingers at the TV while pacing the room and saying in a loud voice over and over, "F-ing no respect. No class. No class." My 18 yr old nephew, D14 and I were baking a cake in the same space, and N18 had never seen him this way. The kids locked eyes and laughed very quietly, almost nervously. I've done it before and he's snapped at me, so I know not to.

True to form, he snapped at them for laughing.

Later I was driving the kids in the car and they brought up how he snapped at them, and they were both coming at it from a perspective of, "Wow he was mad. He really gets into his games."

Tonight he started spilling his guts to me about how he cannot take my daughter's blatant disrespect any more, she is in a power struggle with him. (When I tell y'all she is a very easy and complacent child...he even says so.) He said, "If my own daughter did that i would rip her a new a-hole." What the...? He also said that he didn't see my nephew laugh, it was only my daughter and he was finished with her disrespect. I tried to ask questions to get to the heart of why he felt disrespected. I let him finish, then said it was probably nervous laughter, it was hard to know how to react when he yelled at the tv. He said he wasn't "this ogre" that I made him out to be, that he was talking calmly to the TV, if hes so bad I should record him next time. Thankfully, I didn't take any of this bait. I listened, then I left to shower.

This, after we spent the day at his BPD mom's house for Thanksgiving, something I suggested doing after a good deal of conflict. He'd been on edge from the moment we left
this morning. When we arrived, he changed our leaving time from 2 to 3. (We agreed to leave at 2pm, per discussion in MC, but after a conversation with his ex, he went ahead and changed it to 3 without checking in with me.) I asked why this was necessary, and he said that was the only time that worked for her. I said ok, wasn't thrilled, but I dropped it. After that he sulked at me ALL DAY. My nephew noticed it and asked me what was going on with him. I've been working on sitting in discomfort, so I let it be and just tried to stay positive, play cards with kids, etc. He spent time with his mom watching football and talking.

I think it's possible something about today triggered him. I am working on polite, responsive, gray rock, distracting kids with fun activities to give him time with her. I'm not stepping in to rescue or fix, which maybe is coming across as unfeeling to him?  I thought I did a good job of staying calm and engaged. She pricked a few times but I just moved on. I didnt sulk or retreat, the kids and I had fun with games and they declined to join us when we invited them.

I'm really concerned about his impact on my kids. I used to believe he was a good man. I don't want my girls dealing with this behavior from any person they date. D16 moved out last year in large part because of H. I'm afraid he's driving my youngest out now. Thankfully she's at her dad's this weekend. I'm half hoping he will calm down, but he holds grudges.

 I really struggle to explain his behavior to them... they've expressed numerous times that he hurts their feelings. I don't want to triangulate. I can't recommend they talk to him, because he wouldn't listen. He thinks children should respect all-knowing parents. So I listen, I ask questions, try to guide a productive conversation, and eventually they move in with their dad. My heart breaks and I'm left with him.

He can be a vengeful person, so part of me wonders if he's punishing me, consciously or not, for not allowing his mom to move in. If he can't have his mom, he'll alienate my kids.

I know I'm probably overthinking parts of this. I'll contact our therapist tomorrow. Thoughts and support appreciated, bpdfam.

pj

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

So...are you up for recording him next time?  

If you could read your post, go back to the beginning...what could you have done differently?

Was there something that could be validated..that wasn't?

Was there a boundary that was crossed...but wasn't enforced?

No rush...

Best,

FF

[zachira]

You are wondering how to protect the kids from your husband. At the same time, you are feeling overwhelmed by his bad behaviors, how badly it makes you feel, and how it affects the children. You have set a strong boundary about not letting your MIL with BPD move in with you. I am suspecting that you are feeling like maybe here we go again and you have to set other boundaries with him that will be more difficult to enforce. While you can not let your MIL with BPD move in, you really can't do much about his sudden meltdowns. Seeing your therapist sounds like a safe place to discuss your feelings and decide what you want to do to about everything you've discussed here, including how to best protect your children from your husband's bad behaviors. I am wondering if getting a mental health evaluation for your husband might help. He seems to be very moody, possibly depressed. What do you know about the mental health of his family members? You have alot on your plate. I am not really sure how to help yet at the same time I admire how you help others on this site, so I know you are plenty capable of doing what you have to do.

[GaGrl]

When you joined the forum, you said very little about your husband's behaviors except for those related to the MIL situation. He seemed so cowed by his mother that I developed a sense of him much different than what you are now describing.

Once you let him be responsible for his own decisions and behavior with his mother, the focus moves from his mother to him. This gives you some more clarity on what you can address in MC under "better communication."

How could you describe his troubling behavior in MC in a way that you can work on?

[pursuingJoy]

So...are you up for recording him next time?  

If you could read your post, go back to the beginning...what could you have done differently?

Was there something that could be validated..that wasn't?

Was there a boundary that was crossed...but wasn't enforced?

I am absolutely up for recording him. If I do it without his knowledge,  I risk making him angry. If i do it with his knowledge, he'll be cautious and i won't capture the behavior.

FF, as far as going back, it's a good question but I'm not sure what I would have done differently. He is extremely sensitive when he thinks i 'cross' him in front of kids...asking him to stop cussing, or to watch the game in our bedroom would be disrespectful. Maybe I should have taken the kids into another space but, not only was there not another space in the house other than bedrooms, we were waiting for the cake to bake, then I was taking D14 to her dads.

I did ask myself the question about validation, so I sent him a text this morning that started with "no child should disrespect a parent." He felt disrespected by her, and I validated that disrespect should not be tolerated. I also said what I said last night, that his animated approach to watching games was sometimes hard to be around, cussing and yelling at the TV was not setting a good example for kids, saying you'd rip your daughter a new a-hole was extreme, and I asked him to watch games in our bedroom in the future.

His response, "says something about you that you took it literally, I can watch TV wherever I want in my house, my apologies I'll try not to be animated around you or the kids, that's just who I am, I dont always like the way you do things but fine, I guess im the only one who gets called out on it."

I know I'm not perfect at this but I'm trying. Ugh I want to scream. But around him I'm keeping a cool head and staying calm.

There wasn't a boundary that had been voiced other than language. I and his best friend have told him over and over that he has a foul mouth, he receives it and admits it...I get really frustrated because he uses foul language in my office and around the kids. I try to speak to it every time. Once I half-jokingly said it made me nervous when he came into the office because I knew he would cuss, he felt really bad and said he didn't want me to feel that way.

 I don't know FF. How do I set a boundary with a grown man and not be condescending?

[pursuingJoy]

Seeing your therapist sounds like a safe place to discuss your feelings and decide what you want to do to about everything you've discussed here, including how to best protect your children from your husband's bad behavior

What do you know about the mental health of his family members?

Thanks for the encouragement zachira, I needed that. I appreciate you taking time to encourage me on a day that's rough for you too.

Yes I'm scheduling a call with the therapist next Monday. I've been struggling in MC. I get the sense that she wants to know her approach is working, and is looking for positive feedback and progress. My life with him right now is absolutely miserable,  every single day is hard work just to keep myself afloat and we spend time in MC applauding his small steps. He always turns to me at the end and says the sweetest things, the counselor says, ",Awwww" He maintains his mask. I am perceived by them as emotional and negative, but in fairness, I haven't shared where I am with her recently. She can't truly help unless she knows what she's dealing with.

Up until this point we haven't talked about his behaviors in MC, just his moms.

I'd love us both to get mental health evaluations, I think we are both depressed. I've also considered PTSD for him, former military, saw combat in Iraq. His mom has been diagnosed with depression and anxiety, his older brother saw counselors for something starting in high school and committed suicide at the age of 25 or so.

Thanks Z. You've given me some food for thought and space to think.

[pursuingJoy]

When you joined the forum, you said very little about your husband's behaviors except for those related to the MIL situation. He seemed so cowed by his mother that I developed a sense of him much different than what you are now describing.

How could you describe his troubling behavior in MC in a way that you can work on?

I haven't seen this much of his aggressive behavior until the conflict with his mom 5 months ago, GaGrl. I saw it first in the car after the conversation with his mom, he yelled at me for two hours. Even yesterday, I believe something happened during the visit to his mom that set him off last night. My thinking was to get to the root cause: his enmeshment with his mother. Of course, all that caused was triangulation.

You are absolutely correct, I need to let him take responsibility for his behavior.

I have seen him be very aggressive and unreasonable with D16 who, interestingly enough, has some BPD tendencies herself. I've begun to wonder if his irrational anger towards her was scapegoating, but now I think it might be because she reminds him of his mom. Somewhere in his head he's angry at his mom, but he couldnt take it out on her, so he was vicious with my daughter.

Thank goodness she moved out with her dad. It's still tense when they're in the same space but not like it used to be.

I'd love guidance on wording to use to bring this up in counseling. I might let him tell it and see what happens. I don't want to use inflammatory words or statements. I don't want him to feel invalidated. I want to let him know how he scares others when he yells and cusses but I read somewhere that you shouldn't do that. I'm aware that I'm not thinking clearly but i want to get to a better place so i don't cave in MC.

[GaGrl]

I think you have to bring his behaviors into MC in a way that your counselor knows that she is seeing and hearing his "good guy" facade -- she is getting the best version of your husband, while you go home and deal with reality.

It's not inflammatory to describe his behavior objectively --

He raises his voice/yells/curses at the television while standing up and pacing around the room.

This behavior makes others in the house uncomfortable.

He interprets nervous laughter as disrespect.

The house environment is uncomfortable and unwelcoming to your children, and each child has chosen other living arrangements. This is painful to you.

His communication style is profane, to the point you are nervous when he is in your office.

He is vengeful.

Of course, this is too much to lay out at MC in one session, but there could be multiple ways to tell the story and then choose which thread to pursue.

Thoughts?

[zachira]

It is common in Marital Therapy for the spouses to meet individually with the therapist during part of a session or for a whole session.

[Methuen]

Hi PJ,

I am very sorry to hear this, all of which is troubling.  What I am hearing in your post is that he crossed some boundaries, but you are somewhat at wits end for how to move forward, because these boundaries have been crossed in the passed, you've tried to address them, but nothing has improved?  And maybe his behavior is escalating because his mother can't move into the household?  And you are trying to figure out how to manage all this?  Do you feel like you are walking on eggshells around him...?

I am wondering if you are seeing a counsellor for yourself as well, or only MC?  It just seems like you have so much going on here, that you could use some face to face counselling support just for you, where you can feel completely safe to say what you need to, without worrying about how the other half of your marriage will respond once you are outside of the MC office walls, and also to unpack the problems one at a time.  Also, I hope that you are able to find some time for self-care once the kids are in bed.  A nice long soak in a hot bath can do wonders...to help slow the breathing down...and the mind...

"If my own daughter did that i would rip her a new a-hole." What the...? He also said that he didn't see my nephew laugh, it was only my daughter and he was finished with her disrespect. I tried to ask questions to get to the heart of why he felt disrespected. I let him finish, then said it was probably nervous laughter, it was hard to know how to react when he yelled at the tv.

Clearly he created an unsafe feeling for people in the room, including for you as you try to navigate discussing it with him.  From what you have written here, it is pretty easy to see that he was emotional in the living room.  When a person is emotionally aroused, rational thought falls away (disappears).  It's actually an inverse curve on a graph.  Seeing as how he was angry (emotional), he therefore won't be able to think rationally in that moment, so I think what FF was getting at is that a validating statement would be appropriate at that time, because it has the best chance of bringing down the emotion.  Once the emotion is under control, you have a better chance of getting somewhere with validating questions, or possibly discussing it, but as soon as the emotion comes back, we return to validation (because cognition/rational thought disappears and nothing can get solved with heightened emotion).  That's the theory, which is the easy part.  Putting it into practice, in the moment, is much harder.  That's the part I'm working on with my mom.  Usually in the moment, I'm fearful (emotion) and therefore can't think clearly (lack of rational thought/cognition) to remember the validating statement, and express it in a calm loving voice (recall the graph).  That's the hard part with validating statements.

I did ask myself the question about validation, so I sent him a text this morning that started with "no child should disrespect a parent."

How did your daughter disrespect H?  I don't understand how SHE "disrespected" HIM.  Ok, maybe she was shocked by his outburst, surprised, uncomfortable, and quietly laughed out of nervousness, but I would argue the disrespect came from HIM when he uttered profanity in an angry voice in the company of children.    I'm just a little concerned that maybe sending a text that "no child should disrespect a parent" maybe validates the invalid...?  I've probably laughed quietly in my lifetime a few times too when I've been nervous or uncomfortable, and I think that's somewhat normal for a lot people, but I never ever did it with any intention to be disrespectful, and I don't think your daughter did either.  I just don't think she was the one that showed the disrespect in this case...  That could be something to bring up next time you see MC...?

"If my own daughter did that i would rip her a new a-hole."

Uh...this is sounding pretty agressive.  I can appreciate where your concern and anxiety is coming from.  ...another point to bring up with MC?  Are you feeling safe emotionally, physically?

I applaud you for listening to him, and leaving to take a shower .  Wow, I think that takes a lot of inner strength to not take the bait .  Good for you!

It seems like a lot of boundaries are being crossed by H.

I like what Zachira is saying about meeting individually as well as together with MC.  That way the truth is out there, and s/he can do their job to support and help find paths forward.

You are not overthinking PJ.  

Thinking of you.

 

[pursuingJoy]

GaGrl, the objective statements help. I just need to brace myself for the fallout. Ugh. I'm so sick and tired of fighting and being the one to bring negative observations forward.

zachira we have seen her individually but not for a while. I think its time to do some individual sessions. She is available for a 15 minute phone call Monday or tuesday morning so I can catch her up before our joint session this week. Crossing fingers.

Methuen, I definitely get your point about validating him while he's emotional. In the example I gave, I'm at a loss as to what to validate exactly? At points throughout, I was following the game enough to make statements letting him know I cared, commenting on how well they were doing against a ranked team.  

Validating his emotion (ie, I can see you're really into this game, why don't you go watch in the room) would make him angry and come across to him as condescending (i have every right to watch TV wherever I want to, if these f-ing idiots would just f-ing play the game, or something similar). He insists that he is perfectly rational at all times. He also insists that he is never angry... this is a really interesting phenomenon that I've never encountered in anyone. I have to use the word frustrated or upset to talk about his angry feelings.

Anyway, I am clearly missing something I can validate, any suggestions welcome.

How did your daughter disrespect H?

Uh...this is sounding pretty agressive.  I can appreciate where your concern and anxiety is coming from.  ...another point to bring up with MC?  Are you feeling safe emotionally, physically?

I absolutely agree with you on the disrespect. In my text I followed that first statement with, "if she had disrespected you, I would have spoken up and addressed it." I thought maybe starting with a shared value would help.

Later he changed what he said: he wasn't upset that she laughed (not true, because he snapped at her) he was upset that she rolled her eyes after he told her not to laugh. I was standing right there watching and I didn't see it, but let's say she did...Look...I get it, rolling your eyes is a sign of contempt. In light of his childish behavior, it's hardly the greatest of concerns. She is one of 2 very compliant kids in this family and in the past few months he's started to target her. (I do not say this to him or out loud, I'm well aware that it would be perceived as invalidating. I just let him talk.)

Physically safe, yes. Emotionally, not at all in the past 5 months.

And I will add that his comment about ripping a new a-hole was exceptionally aggressive, even for him. He once hatefully called my D16 "that thing" during a similar argument. I immediately asked him not to refer to her like that. When he made this comment about his own daughter, I said something like 'wow that's a pretty rough thing to say about your own kid' which of course he defended, but I can't believe he thinks that's right.

[pursuingJoy]

One more sad/frustrating thing. Just before he launched into the whole 'rip a new a-hole' tirade, he gave me an early Christmas present of a laptop. He wrapped it and everything. I need it for school, and I love photography so I can use it for editing. The rage ruined the laptop. He keeps asking if I've finished setting it up. I'm so angry I can't even look at it. I need it, and I want it, but I cant even pick it up. What's wrong with me? Ugh.

[pursuingJoy]

Sigh. Better or worse, we talked this morning. He asked again about setting up the computer and I burst into tears. Wasnt the worst fought discussion. I told him that his constant, unnecessary cussing was getting to me. He first said he had always been that way then he said fine, I'll work on it. I reiterated that we are both capable of and responsible for managing emotional responses.

I told him he sometimes scared me which did NOT go over well. That hurt him, he reacted angrily/defensively then went dismissive and shut down. I said i want you to know i love you and i left. But I feel better having said it.

Interesting, i assumed his dad cussed and yelled and that's why he thinks it's ok. He offered that his dad never did that. I looked surprised, and i could see him processing what he had just said.

[GaGrl]

This is all very interesting...you may be moving toward some important insights!

What occurs to me in the description of your conversation is his denial that he is ever angry. His denial is in direct conflict with his behavior -- cursing, pacing, raised voice, verbal insults or threats are all anger behaviors.

Was your husband ever allowed to be "angry" in his FOO? Does his mother allow him to be angry or express anger now? Much of this could be about repressed emotion. If he isn't in touch with anger, then he can have a severe disconnect between what he feels and the appropriate and inappropriate ways to express those feelings.

Another thing to consider is what he saw as expressions of anger in his FOO. Did his mother rage? Is he reluctant to admit to anger because he doesn't want to be like his mother?

(Anger was not an emotion that was validated in my family -- I wasn't "allowed" to be angry. My mother still has trouble with it.)

[zachira]

The story about the laptop really resonates with me. Of course, you cannot appreciate this present from your husband when he is treating you so badly. As you know, I have many family members with BPD and NPD. One of my main frustrations with these family members, is how they go overboard doing really generous things for people including me, which alternates with doing things that are just incredibly cruel. Your feelings and frustration about your husband giving you the laptop after mistreating you are normal and my heart goes out to you.

[Methuen]

Hi PJ

This is sounding so stressful...I am worried about you.  Sounds a bit like you are walking on eggshells in your own house just with everyday functioning with your own nuclear family, MIL problems aside...

She is available for a 15 minute phone call Monday or tuesday morning so I can catch her up before our joint session this week

OK, 15 minutes is a start, but there is so much going on here, that 15 min only gives you a chance to relay to her a few facts about his words and behavior inside the house, and why you and the children don't feel emotionally safe.  It won't allow any time for back and forth communication, or for discussion of strategies, or goal setting.  It will give her a heads up, but I am thinking that you deserve some therapy sessions all to yourself.  Likewise, it sounds like he could maybe benefit from some 1:1 therapy too (based on the family history you described, and his recent behavior).  Do you think he would be open to that?  You mentioned a mental health evaluation for each of you.  Do you think he would be open to that?

I'd love guidance on wording to use to bring this up {aggressive language and behavior} in counseling. I might let him tell it and see what happens. I don't want to use inflammatory words or statements. I don't want him to feel invalidated. I want to let him know how he scares others when he yells and cusses

I'm guessing you used an "I statement" when you communicated to him:   Example:  "I feel scared when you yell and cuss inside our home because those are not loving sounds or words.  They make me feel unsafe because suddenly I feel like things are unpredictable, and aggressive words can really hurt,"  or something along those lines.  I statements do NOT assign blame.  You are simply communicating how YOU feel, which gives him feedback.   Once you have communicated, it is his choice how to respond to that communication.

I told him he sometimes scared me which did NOT go over well. That hurt him, he reacted angrily/defensively then went dismissive and shut down. I said i want you to know i love you and i left. But I feel better having said it.

So assuming you used an I statement, and he became angry, this is concerning.  Regarding him shutting down, it's possible that he needs some time to think about what you said.  Most of us would need some time to reflect if someone told us that.  Hopefully he didn't shut down because he was afraid his anger would get worse...Telling him you love him and then leaving the situation was a super mature response.    I can't help but wonder if that has shown a positive impact yet...?  Did he come around at all after that?

It is concerning that when you bring up his cussing and his tone of voice, he denies being angry.  If someone told me I made them feel scared or unsafe, I would be absolutely mortified and feel horrible and would take all kinds of measures to address it and win back their trust.  The fact that he denies he gets angry (instead of feeling bad)...do you think he has an "anger management" problem?  Does he sound angry when he's denying being angry?  It sounds like he grew up with a BPD mom with anxiety and depression, has possible PTSD you are thinking (and saw combat in Iraq), and had a brother commit suicide.  So just reading all this, and reading your description of a few of his behaviors inside the house, I'm kind of wondering if he is in denial about a few things, and maybe his own anger is one of them?  

In MC, what do you think about using an I statement to bring up the anger issue if he doesn't bring it up?

 

I'm at a loss as to what to validate exactly? At points throughout, I was following the game enough to make statements letting him know I cared, commenting on how well they were doing against a ranked team.  

I think validation is about validating his EMOTION, which means using words that convey emotion.  For example:  "I can see that the game is making you upset".  He may have felt invalidated if you were commenting on how well they were doing, but the team wasn't actually getting the results he wanted.  

I can see you're really into this game, why don't you go watch in the room

He probably took this as criticism rather than validation.  "I can see that the game is making you upset" is validating his emotion.  After saying that much, I don't know what to suggest.  I would probably offer up taking a break for a moment to go get a coffee or whatever he  normally would do to calm himself.  Maybe that would help him to recognize/ become aware that he needs to take a break to calm himself...before he says something worse to upset everyone around him...

his comment about ripping a new a-hole was exceptionally aggressive, even for him. He once hatefully called my D16 "that thing" during a similar argument. I immediately asked him not to refer to her like that. When he made this comment about his own daughter, I said something like 'wow that's a pretty rough thing to say about your own kid' which of course he defended, but I can't believe he thinks that's right.

 

When I read this, I started to wonder if this is about "power".  Does this language and behavior make him feel more powerful?  Would he have said those things in that tone if he had been alone in the house?  Does having an audience give him a sense of power do you think?  To your knowledge, has he ever been mistreated at any time (childhood or the army)?

He insists that he is perfectly rational at all times. He also insists that he is never angry.

Hmm.  I have never met a person that has never been irrational in their life, and has never been angry in their life.  I don't think those people exist, because I don't believe there is a perfect person.  Just an observation.

I told him that his constant, unnecessary cussing was getting to me. He first said he had always been that way then he said fine, I'll work on it.

 
It's great that he said he will work on it.  That is something to build on.    I wonder, does he have a plan for how to work on it?  If not, maybe building a plan in MC would be a good goal.

early Christmas present of a laptop.

So it is strange that he gave you the laptop right "before he launched into the whole 'rip a new a-hole' tirade".  My mother has used the strategy of giving me "gifts" or "tokens" after her rages all her life, but I've never got one before a rage.  I would ask your therapist about that during a private visit.  My theory isn't worth mentioning here.  My mom recently gave me a cutesy mug with a mother and child BUNNY rabbit (looking at each other with smiles) that says "friends forever", after her most recent rage.  I put the mug at the back of the cupboard, and haven't been able to drink from it.  I want to be treated with respect, not given gifts after being mistreated,/disrespected.  Those gifts mean nothing.  Words and behavior mean everything.  It's a completely insignificant example compared to what you are experiencing right now, but I totally understand why you haven't been able to set up the laptop to use it, even though you need it for school.  I get that.  Honestly, I'm hoping that he got you the laptop for all the right reasons, but because he was in a "bad place" and emotional, he screwed up on "how to give someone he loves a gift".

Interesting, i assumed his dad cussed and yelled and that's why he thinks it's ok. He offered that his dad never did that.

 

Interesting.  So if his dad didn't...who did?  Why does he do this, and think it's OK to do this, and deny that he's angry after doing it?  Was he bullied in school?  I think kind of behavior is learned from somewhere.

I'm really concerned about his impact on my kids. I used to believe he was a good man. I don't want my girls dealing with this behavior from any person they date...I really struggle to explain his behavior to them... they've expressed numerous times that he hurts their feelings.

This is legitimate.  You are not overthinking it.  This is an example of why you need more than a 15 min phone conversation with your counsellor.  Maybe use that 15 min to set something up 1:1 longer term just for you?

He thinks children should respect all-knowing parents.

Respect goes both ways, and it needs to be earned, even by parents from their children.  If he's yelling, cussing, and using expressions like referring to a daughter as a "thing", that is not going to earn him any respect.  Instead, people will feel unsafe.  It sounds like some boundaries need to be reaffirmed...can a boundary around yelling and cussing be set up in MC where there is some accountability required to follow through...

asking him to stop cussing, or to watch the game in our bedroom would be disrespectful.

Sounds like the meaning of respect needs to be discussed in MC...

asked him to watch games in our bedroom in the future...His response, "says something about you that you took it literally, I can watch TV wherever I want in my house".

"This sounds like it is about "power" again.  

My life with him right now is absolutely miserable,

I am so sorry PJ.  

Keep us posted on how it is going.  I hope MC gets "the full picture" of H, and not just his "ideal" presentation.  I hope you can get some personal counselling time just for you.  As hard as it is to find time, self-care is necessary.  You can't look after your kids if you aren't well.  

On the plus side, it sounds like there is something to build on if he has said "he'll work on it".  Also, he is attending MC.  That is big.  Again something to build on.

Let us know how to help.

 

[pursuingJoy]

Much of this could be about repressed emotion. If he isn't in touch with anger, then he can have a severe disconnect between what he feels and the appropriate and inappropriate ways to express those feelings.

Another thing to consider is what he saw as expressions of anger in his FOO. Did his mother rage? Is he reluctant to admit to anger because he doesn't want to be like his mother?

GaGrl, what you said about repressed emotions hit a button. That is a characteristic of his family I know to be true. His dad went to work the day after his brother committed suicide. In times past when my H and I could actually talk, I commented that his family suppressed their emotions and he agreed. This has left him with a weird lack of understanding of emotion. He'll make statements like, "I would never have said/done that, I don't have a selfish bone in my body." I point out that everyone has the capacity to be selfish, including me, he agrees but it doesn't sink in.

Maybe he doesn't want to be like her but if that's the case, it's on a very subconscious level. According to him, his mother never raged. In fact, to hear him tell it, she's never done wrong. She was never angry, always there, just a perfect mom. This is a red flag for me. The best parents made mistakes with their kids. It's normal and healthy for kids to 'break' from their parents, discover differences of opinion, be validated in their individuality.

Thanks for sharing your experience with anger denial, at least I know it's not completely isolated.

[pursuingJoy]

The story about the laptop really resonates with me. Of course, you cannot appreciate this present from your husband when he is treating you so badly. As you know, I have many family members with BPD and NPD. One of my main frustrations with these family members, is how they go overboard doing really generous things for people including me, which alternates with doing things that are just incredibly cruel. Your feelings and frustration about your husband giving you the laptop after mistreating you are normal and my heart goes out to you.

Thanks Z. This still makes me cry. I'm so mad. I really needed a gesture of kindness from him. I'm so angry that the gesture was ruined. I tried to explain it to him, and he said he didn't mean to, he was just triggered by a photo of my daughter that I had just uploaded on the computer. I told him that we have the ability to control when and how we have these conversations.

I will say he doesn't go overboard with buying me things. It is a very rare occurrence. I genuinely think that he just screwed this up because he hasn't learned to regulate his emotions.

I'm also having to consider that maybe, somewhere in the back of his mind, doubts and questions about his mom and self are beginning to stir. If that is the case, and he's never learned to accept or understand or manage emotions, he is vomiting wherever he is. Maybe this will be my life for a season or indefinitely.

I had an AHA moment of sorts yesterday. The topic of the conflict with his mom five months ago came up again. I have really studied my response to her carefully, and I shared that I've become increasingly proud of the self-control I displayed with her. There was a moment where I crossed a line and I shouldn't have mentioned a beach trip (that issue was caused by miscommunication between my H and I, that wasn't her fault), but I told him that overall, I was pretty happy with the way I handled it. I provided specifics like how I responded to particular statements, opportunities I was intentionally offering to let her know this wasn't a good idea, and opportunities she had to respond alternatively.

He disagreed and said he didn't like the way I handled it. When I asked about specifics, he didn't say, other than "I just didn't like it." This has happened before.

I know this may seem like an elementary realization, but if hasn't ever said "no" to his mom, it makes sense that he finds genuine discomfort in me saying "no" regardless of how I handled it. This helps me because his disagreement becomes less a judgment on me, and more about his own comfort level in saying "no" to his mom.

Baby steps.

[GaGrl]

I agree -- I think you are right on target with what is going on with your husband. The more room he has been given, the more  he has had to live with and own his actions and feelings about his mother.

That's not to say he is actively examining those feelings. "I just didn't like it" with no explanation may mean he is uncomfortable but can't get articulate why.

It is baby steps. It could be slow-go. We can all pray for patience. I know it took at least a year for my husband to fully accept that his ex-wife has a bonafide personality disorder and that it had so negatively affected his children.

[pursuingJoy]

This is sounding so stressful...I am worried about you.  Sounds a bit like you are walking on eggshells in your own house just with everyday functioning with your own nuclear family, MIL problems aside...

Thanks for your kindness, Methuen. It is stressful and is taking a physical toll. I feel like I've aged 15 years in the past 5 months. My hair's falling out, it's hard to eat and sleep. About 50% of the time, I can feel tension leave my body when he leaves the room. This, after 6 years of marriage that was good, for the most part. It's a huge loss and I'm really struggling to understand it.

Agreed wholeheartedly, the 15 min conversation is just a start to get ahead of our next MC session this week. She doesn't charge me for a quick conversation. Insurance will only cover one session a week and I don't want to waste our next MC session by not filling her in.  I will set up an individual appointment with her.

I'd love to discuss the meaning of respect, but I suspect that to get to the heart of it, we'll have to discuss something else you mentioned: power, which for him is very tied to control. He rages when he feels he doesn't have control, which he deems disrespect. If one of my children, who he does not have patience with, does not love like his own, and has not displayed self-control with, does something he feels is crossing the line, he wants so badly to just destroy them. (I'm not making this up, I know this because of what he says to me in our room after incidents. Thankfully, the only thing they see is muted contempt from him. They sense it, but they don't get the rage that I get in our room.) He gets super angry with me because he feels "I won't let him" discipline my kids.

I will clarify here that I have absolutely zero issue with him asking my kids to pick up, do dishes, say yes sir, and on and on. Below are things that have triggered his rage:

1. Occasionally, he gets very generally angry at all children that exist because he has to ask them to do dishes or pick up their shoes. Someone forgetting to pick their backpack up at the door will lead to repetitive critiques of this generation, how they act like they know everything but they don't know anything, they don't listen, they just want things handed to them, they don't understand how to work. Several of my kids have expressed that they hate it when he does this, it makes them feel awful about themselves.

2. Last year, he was angry with D16 for suicidal ideation. After she was hospitalized for a week, he told her, "I'm so disappointed in you." I was mortified and asked him not to say that to her, explaining how it may have been perceived. He was 100% stubborn, insisting that he knew more than I did about suicide because of his brother. One night he "apologized" to her for saying it with a huge "BUT" and then launched into an explanation of why he was disappointed.

I've made it a point to never "cross" him in front of the kids but I did in this instance. I only said, "it's wrong to tell people who are suicidal that you're disappointed in them." I wanted my child to know that it was wrong, that I saw it, and I wouldn't tolerate his arrogant non-apology. I crossed a major line with him that night because he felt disrespected in front of someone else. I knew he would be angry but I would do it again. I feel that I picked the lesser of two evils.

3. Neighbors watched my kids after school and invited them to help themselves to whatever snacks they wanted. D16, who was then about 12, brought home an unopened bag of chips from their house. He was LIVID. I grounded her for two weeks and made her purchase two bags to replace the one she took. He kept saying that I was letting her get away with it, that she was lazy and would grow up thinking stealing was ok. He went into an absolute rage, said stealing was number one on his list of things you should never do. Every night we would go in our bedroom and he would go on and on and on for hours. This went on for about 6 months. It is the only event in our marriage that came even close to what is going on right now. I was so broken down by the end of it.

My heart broke when she moved out but I knew it was in her best interests.

Shortly after this, his 6 year old started stealing money, books, and toys from other kids. Her stealing went on over the course of several years. His emotional reaction each time was a very normal parental sadness, some anger, talks about earning trust, and appropriate punishment. When I mention how differently he reacted, he insists that he was just as angry about her stealing, that he treats all the kids exactly the same. He has very generally admitted to having more patience with his own kids.

That was much more than I meant to share, just wanted to provide specifics about why I'm concerned about protecting my kids. He spews it like it's a hateful accusation, "No idea why you feel like you have to protect your kids from me."

Methuen, I hear what you're saying about validating emotions but believe me when I say that if I said, "I can see you're upset" he would go off. He would be completed insulted that I was telling him what he was feeling. His reaction to this insult would be so much worse if I told him how he was feeling WHILE he was upset. It works better when I walk alongside him to let him know I care about the things he cares about and then put space between us so that he can manage his own emotions. He eventually calms down on his own.

I'm not sure he's BPD, btw, although definitely some strong BPD traits. He also can't accurately identify his own emotions, so maybe that's why validating emotions doesn't work on him? Or maybe there is something else I need to be validating?

I do think that a lot of his anger is coming from feeling disrespected in his home. I say feeling, because I genuinely don't think that anyone of us tries, in any way, to disrespect him. Our kids are all pretty good kids. His youngest has the most behavioral issues by far, she also has ADHD so that's expected. I am a very supportive wife. He loves sports and hunting and basketball. I am very careful with the words I choose around him, I do stand up for myself. If he's in a good place, he accepts it and we have a chat about what can change. This is what our relationship was built on until my daughter took the bag of chips. If he's in a bad place, he projects, denies, bullies, rages, and blames (blame is HUGE for him).

He had calmed down last night and he said that he felt really bad when I said that I found him scary, that it was hard to hear. He said that he would watch football games in our room from now on. Later, once he's had time to think about things, he has these lucid moments where he realizes what happened, which is something I've always admired about him. These moments are desperately few and far between lately because of the tension in our home but I appreciated that he at least committed to watching games in our room.

And you're right, he is in counseling. That's something too.

Thanks all. Not sure what I'd do without you.

  

[pursuingJoy]

It is baby steps. It could be slow-go. We can all pray for patience. I know it took at least a year for my husband to fully accept that his ex-wife has a bonafide personality disorder and that it had so negatively affected his children.

And how much harder will it be to accept something difficult about a mother you still love? So true my friend. I love him, I really do. I'm just exhausted and not handling things well right now.

[Methuen]

Hi PJ

If one of my children, who he does not have patience with, does not love like his own, and has not displayed self-control with, does something he feels is crossing the line, he wants so badly to just destroy them.

He gets super angry with me because he feels "I won't let him" discipline my kids.

It sounds like you are doing a good job of protecting your kids

repetitive critiques of this generation

Several of my kids have expressed that they hate it when he does this, it makes them feel awful about themselves.

If he was aware of this, do you think it would motivate him to try to stop?

Last year, he was angry with D16 for suicidal ideation.

Is MC aware of this?

D16, who was then about 12, brought home an unopened bag of chips from their house. He was LIVID. I grounded her for two weeks and made her purchase two bags to replace the one she took. He kept saying that I was letting her get away with it, that she was lazy and would grow up thinking stealing was ok.

Is there any chance the neighbour gave her these chips to take home with her?  If she had "taken" them, wouldn't she have "hid" them, rather than have them visible as she came in your house?  I just have this image of a teenager feeling so misunderstood if she was told she could take the chips home by the neighbour, but your H assumed the worst... it's just a thought...

Shortly after this, his 6 year old started stealing money, books, and toys from other kids. Her stealing went on over the course of several years. His emotional reaction each time was a very normal parental sadness, some anger, talks about earning trust, and appropriate punishment. When I mention how differently he reacted, he insists that he was just as angry about her stealing, that he treats all the kids exactly the same. He has very generally admitted to having more patience with his own kids.

Sigh  Has MC heard this?  I know there's lots to do with MC, but if she hasn't heard this, it is worth adding to your "to do" list with MC.

 

I hear what you're saying about validating emotions but believe me when I say that if I said, "I can see you're upset" he would go off.

I totally believe you!  You are amazing with how you are managing all this.  You know and live your situation, while we are just reading words on a screen without seeing or experiencing anything you are, so the textbook stuff just doesn't work in every situation.  My mantra is "follow your gut".  You know best.  Sometimes suggestions here just won't work in a given situation.

He had calmed down last night and he said that he felt really bad when I said that I found him scary, that it was hard to hear. He said that he would watch football games in our room from now on.

This sounds like progress  Has he had a chance to follow through on that yet?

You are a role model for how hard you are trying PJ.  I'm learning a lot from you.

[pursuingJoy]

If he was aware of this, do you think it would motivate him to try to stop?

No. He knows they don't like it, but he feels that what he is saying is true and deserved.

Caveat here: once in a while, he will listen. He makes sexual comments about me all. the. time. Just like cussing, sometimes funny, sometimes ok, sometimes profoundly embarrassing or offensive. He doesn't know how to adjust his behavior to the space. If you ask him to consider the setting he'll usually say, "Fine, but that's the way I am." (This must tie back to his lack of individuation in his FOO? He feels like I'm trying to tell him who he is and he subconsciously hates that, because it's what happened in his family?)

About a month ago, after he made a sexual comment about me, D14 said, "I don't like it when you do that. Please stop." I felt my entire body go tense and lock up and brace for impact. But wouldn't you know, he said ok, I'm sorry. He didn't get mad at her AND he stopped making comments around her. You could have knocked me over with a feather.

All this to say that I know he's fully capable, but it's all about where he is emotionally at the time.

MC is aware of the comments he made to my daughter about suicide. We haven't discussed it.

Is there any chance the neighbour gave her these chips to take home with her?  If she had "taken" them, wouldn't she have "hid" them, rather than have them visible as she came in your house?  I just have this image of a teenager feeling so misunderstood if she was told she could take the chips home by the neighbour, but your H assumed the worst... it's just a thought...

I always found it almost cute that she put them in our pantry. Grounding her for two weeks and making her buy two bags to replace the one was a bit much, but I was (wrongly) trying to make him back off by being hard on her. My conscience wouldn't let me take it further.

I not only believe he assumed the worst, it triggered something massive inside of him. I thought we were having conversations about her, but based on his emotional reaction he was raging about something else he couldn't even put words to.

We haven't even approached the topic of kids with the MC.

I totally believe you!  You are amazing with how you are managing all this.  You know and live your situation, while we are just reading words on a screen without seeing or experiencing anything you are, so the textbook stuff just doesn't work in every situation.  My mantra is "follow your gut".  You know best.  Sometimes suggestions here just won't work in a given situation.

I really appreciate this. I went back to read my response to you about validating his emotion and I was like, "ugh I sound so unappreciative, she's going to think I don't value her feedback, why did I say that?"

You are so right about following our guts, I like your mantra.

This sounds like progress  Has he had a chance to follow through on that yet?

Not yet but not only am I willing to enforce this boundary of watching football in our room, he showed a twinge of embarrassment in counseling, so I don't think I'll have to say or do anything. I'm thankful for this too.

I don't feel like a role model, in fact I feel like an absolute mess. But I'm thankful for you and others that show your care, share your wisdom and cheer me on. Thank you, Methuen!

[Methuen]

He makes sexual comments about me all. the. time.

This is not OK because it is NOT respectful!  Especially in front of your kids...

Unsolicited sexual comments aren't respectful.  Doesn't matter if it's marriage or common law.  If it makes you uncomfortable, and you've told him that, and he continues to do it, it's not OK behavior.

 

If you ask him to consider the setting he'll usually say, "Fine, but that's the way I am."

This sounds like power speaking, not mutual respect.

About a month ago, after he made a sexual comment about me, D14 said, "I don't like it when you do that. Please stop." I felt my entire body go tense and lock up and brace for impact. But wouldn't you know, he said ok, I'm sorry. He didn't get mad at her AND he stopped making comments around her. You could have knocked me over with a feather.

Good for her!  She set up a boundary It sounds like she has good awareness, and is protecting you.

 

[trueheart89]

Wow PursuingJoy... that’s a lot. I wish I could just give you a big hug and take everything off your plate so you could have a day off!

I completely agree with what everyone else has been advising about finding more 1 on 1 time for yourself with a counselor. It may even be worth shopping around for a new therapist if you don’t feel like you and H are getting what you need from your current one. I always say that finding a good therapist is like finding the perfect pair of jeans... you might have to try on A LOT of pairs to find the perfect one for you. But once you find a good one who don’t let them go!

I think it is so important for you and your H to be getting separate as well and couples counseling, After all- no one can tend to someone else’s needs if they don’t take care of themselves first. - Chris and I are in couples counseling and we are on the same page when it comes to our situation. . Aside from that we both see our therapist separately in 1 hour sessions. She sees a lot of us! Lol. But it really helps. I would recommend this to you. You deserve some time to yourself to focus on what YOU need, not just what your H needs.

I am really impressed by you and your strength! You have so much more patience than I do! This is something I am working on. I just hope that you see that you deserve as much time and thoughtfulness that you are putting into you H.

[pursuingJoy]

This is not OK because it is NOT respectful!  Especially in front of your kids...

Agree, Methuen. Some comments are fine depending on the setting, it doesn't bother me. What frustrates me is that he can't adapt to the setting. I read yesterday that the emotional dysregulation means they don't know how to respond in certain social settings. He has this BPD trait and others, for sure.

Wow PursuingJoy... that’s a lot. I wish I could just give you a big hug and take everything off your plate so you could have a day off!

I could use a hug, trueheart! I'm pretty overwhelmed. I know you're going through a lot right now too. Glad to have found you on the board.

You deserve some time to yourself to focus on what YOU need, not just what your H needs.

I agree with you all 100%. I've already talked to the MC about ind. appointments in the coming weeks. My insurance only covers one appointment a week, but we've talked about possibly using my H's insurance, which is separate, and setting up two appointments a week.

It is super hard to find a T that you connect with and trust, isn't it? Our MC sessions are challenging but I suspect that has more to do with my H's resistance to seeing and hearing what's going on than with the T. She can't force him to do anything and I don't think she's been given all of the necessary information yet.