Enmeshed husband admitted his BPD mom's behavior was 'weird'

[pursuingJoy]

Thought it might be best to start a new thread. Here are related threads with more background.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=341368.0

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=341342.0

MC last night was challenging? weird? relieving? still trying to process it.

Weird moment...
I went in completely exhausted and overwhelmed after an incident where he was yelling and cussing at the TV, then became angry with my nephew and daughter when they laughed nervously at his behavior.

Husband went in feeling feeling defensive about the same. I said nothing for 20 minutes. He talked and talked about life and friends, then mentioned football and said, "sometimes I get a little animated, which my lovely wife has a problem with. She sometimes takes statements I make very literally when they're not meant that way. I used a line from a movie that she just misunderstood, the line was 'rip their head off and crap down their throat,' only they don't say crap in the movie. She didn't like that. I need to get better about that."

What he actually said, and I have this documented in a text I sent him, as well as here, was "rip her a new a-hole." It's the second time he's changed the phrase. I corrected him the first time and this time.

Neither phrase is good, I dropped it, I just found it really curious that he was changing it and tying it to a quote from a movie.

Challenging moment...
After he was finished talking about football, MC asked about Thanksgiving. He said "we haven't had time to talk about it, I'd be interested in knowing how my wife thinks it went. Apparently mom said something that bothered her."

MC then turned to me and asked about it. I'm so locked up and exhausted from distress, I just burst into tears. I said I didn't want to talk to him about it. She asked why, I said he wouldn't listen and it wasn't safe to talk to him.

She encouraged me to tell him. I said, "It bothered me that my MIL made it a point, as we were leaving, to launch into a series of questions (without waiting for responses) about H's ex wife, asking how she was doing, what was she up to today, how was her boyfriend, how were his kids, how were their puppies, and please wish them a happy thanksgiving. If they were close while they were married, I would understand them wanting to sustain their relationship. They hated each other while you were married, so I find it curious that they are now so close to each other. I also find it curious that your mom thought it important to ask these questions just as we leave her house after visiting her, knowing that there is already tension."

He said, "weird, but she didn't mean it, I can't control if they want a relationship, I don't understand why it bothers you, it wouldn't bother me."

After some reminders about validating statements, and some additional context from the MC, he finally said, "That was a little weird. She asked me first how my ex was doing, and I told her to ask my daughter."

We talked about suspending our own emotional reactions to allow the other person to speak, how to validate the other person, and the importance of effective listening. MC suggested that we schedule a time to talk each week. I'm struggling with that a little. I don't want to talk to him because it feels like a pointless endeavor. He really struggles to listen, he only hears enough to figure out what he's going to say. I know we all struggle with that, but he seems particularly resistant.

I also discovered that his mom was very unhappy the entire time. She said I would only speak when spoken to, and that I played cards the entire time and didn't "spend time together." MC did a masterful job at asking probing questions about family time and expectations for how to spend the time. She asked if he and his mom ever joined us for games, he said no, that's not really mom's thing.

MC asked how I thought it went overall and I said I was proud of the way I conducted myself, I was polite, and I wasn't checked out or rude at all, I tried to maintain a happy demeanor. I was proud that I was the one to suggest going in the first place, and I was proud of the hard work I was doing. I said I was proud of the way I handled her comments about the ex at the end.

I did apologize for pulling away from my husband's hug at one point and said I know it hurt him. I explained that when I'm at his mom's I feel very alone, I almost have to steel myself because I know he won't be 'with' me, he is there to be with and support his mom. I added that I realized that pulling away wasn't the right approach as soon as I did it.

He said he had no idea that I felt that badly (I've told him a hundred times) and "If it's so bad, why on earth would you ever want to go in the first place?" I said because I knew that he loved her, and I thought it was important for us to show solidarity as a couple.

I'm condensing but trying to stay as true to our conversation as I can. Sorry for the he said, she said. That is way too much info.

Thanks for being here.

[ProudDad12]

I'm glad to hear he had at least some acknowledgement that his mom's questions just weren't right. It reminds me of years back when my mom said in a carful of women (including my wife, sister, and cousin) that she "had always wished I would marry ______", a girl from my hometown who my mom loves. I'm embarrassed to say I spent a lot of energy trying to explain it away, giving reasons why she didn't mean it the way it sounded, etc. I know better now, but at the time I didn't. I think partially because I didn't want to face it. Just a subconscious blind eye to it and everything else. Kudos to your husband for his acknowledgment.

Were the kids present when he said what he said during the game? That alone should have been a reason not to say it! I feel for both of you though, because my wife and I have had many arguments frustratingly complicated by us remembering things that were said differently. And unfortunately for me, it's an established fact that my wife remembers conversations way way better than I, so I usually frustratingly loose out, even when I'm certain I'm remembering correctly! Though this case sounds it might just be pure backtracking .

So, before our current bought of NC with my family, whenever we would go visit my parents, I would allow myself to think my wife was having a good time and was OK. Turns out, she wasn't, she was just doing a convincing job of putting on her happy face. Combine that with my desperate need for peace and getting along, and it was easy for me to fool myself, which in turn would dial down my sensitivity to my wife's needs/feelings while there.

In any event, I get the impression y'all were able to move the needle forward a little. Hope that's the case, because any improvement is good improvement! Good luck and thanks for sharing!

[Methuen]

This sounds like genuine "progress" happened at MC .  The lid is off the pot, and now the three of you can start working on improving the soup inside. 

MC suggested that we schedule a time to talk each week. I'm struggling with that a little.

Can you tell us more about why you are struggling with that? 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding or missing something, but it sounds like a breakthrough happened at MC, MC maybe recognizes that and see's a "window of opportunity" to do some work while he is recognizing what his mom said is "weird"...?  I dunno.  Just a thought.

MC did a masterful job at asking probing questions about family time and expectations for how to spend the time.

Great to hear

MC asked how I thought it went overall and I said I was proud of the way I conducted myself, I was polite, and I wasn't checked out or rude at all, I tried to maintain a happy demeanor. I was proud that I was the one to suggest going in the first place, and I was proud of the hard work I was doing. I said I was proud of the way I handled her comments about the ex at the end.

Good for you!  Textbook!  Amazing job! 

I did apologize for pulling away from my husband's hug at one point and said I know it hurt him. I explained that when I'm at his mom's I feel very alone, I almost have to steel myself because I know he won't be 'with' me, he is there to be with and support his mom. I added that I realized that pulling away wasn't the right approach as soon as I did it.

He said he had no idea that I felt that badly (I've told him a hundred times) and "If it's so bad, why on earth would you ever want to go in the first place?" I said because I knew that he loved her, and I thought it was important for us to show solidarity as a couple.

Holy smokes PJ.  I'm proud of you!  Oh my gosh I believe you did that so well.   

It sounds like progress happened at that MC   ...because you handled yourself so well.  It also sounds like MC handled it well.

How are you feeling about it all now?

[pursuingJoy]

M, thank you for your encouragement. I really needed to hear that. I know I've got a long way to go, but I've made some strides and I need the cheers.  Thank you! 

Can you tell us more about why you are struggling with that? 

I told the MC I didn't know what to talk about. Our relationship is so volatile. He 'fights' while I 'flight' and we're at extremes with this right now.

MC clarified that she wants us to talk about the issues with his mom. I'm thinking at home? where there is no accountability? and he doesn't control his anger? If I show emotion, he explodes, and there is more harm done than good.

I refuse to take on a conversation about his mom alone, so I took the liberty of expanding what she wants us to talk about. Last night I went for a drive with him on an errand he had to run and when we got in the car. I was nervous as HECK but I started by saying, "I could be wrong, but I feel like you often feel disrespected in our home and I want to talk about how we can change that."

We had a long conversation about how he views respect, which is pretty narrow: say yes sir, yes ma'am, and do what your parents tell you to do. The fact that I didn't raise my kids to say yes sir means they are disrespectful and he feels justified in his anger. The fact that D14 says yes sir, but doesn't say it loud enough, means that she is trying to take control and she should be punished for that.

I shared that I agreed with what he was saying as it pertained to respect for authority. My view of respect was more broad, even when it came to authority. I consider respect for others' space, individuality, thoughts and ideals was something we should all earn and expect from others. It is something we should offer all people, including children. He agreed, but went back to his views about authority and how I stand in the way of him disciplining my kids.

What I gathered, but he cannot voice yet, is that he feels powerless to discipline my children the way he wants to, this causes him to resent me because I'm standing in the way of relief (he wants to let out his anger on them). On some level it also causes him to question his own worthiness to discipline (which hurts him and he's having a harder time working through this).   

He is not aware of emotions - he doesn't know how to identify his own. I made a general statement about being aware of our own emotions when it came to parenting and used some personal examples. He said, "I don't get emotional until I am disrespected." I clarified that I wasn't talking about being emotional. People feel emotions all the time - joy, happiness, sadness, fear, frustration - and that it's important to be aware of what we're feeling. I shared that sometimes I felt anger, but it was often because of fear, or because my feelings had been hurt, and that it was important to understand what the root emotion was. He seemed to at least be listening.

About 6 or seven times throughout, when he got defensive or made inflammatory statements, I found myself clenching my fists and counting to 5. I literally tuned him out for a few seconds while I forced myself to calm down and tried to remove myself from the situation and simply observe what was happening.

When I'm talking he often interrupts me with his own ideas so I had to calmly tell him 4 or 5 times, 'please let me finish my thought.'

I was drained when we got home but I fulfilled the assignment and survived

[pursuingJoy]

PD, you, Imatter and others here are amazing with sharing your perspectives. You help me understand where my H is coming from, which gives me patience and understanding that he needs right now. Your insight also gives me some resolve, it makes me feel less crazy, and it gives me hope because you're so far ahead of where we are, you know what we're going through.

It reminds me of years back when my mom said in a carful of women (including my wife, sister, and cousin) that she "had always wished I would marry ______", a girl from my hometown who my mom loves. I'm embarrassed to say I spent a lot of energy trying to explain it away, giving reasons why she didn't mean it the way it sounded, etc. I know better now, but at the time I didn't. I think partially because I didn't want to face it. Just a subconscious blind eye to it and everything else. Kudos to your husband for his acknowledgment.

It's relieving that I'm not the only DIL that's had to go through this, although I'm sorry your wife had to go through it. It's petty and hurtful.

Your mom sounds much more direct than my MIL. My MIL is a master at doing and saying things to fly under my H's radar. Once she developed a friendship with a single neighbor lady and I got the weirdest feeling that she was parading her in front of him as if to say, "this is the type of person I wish you'd brought home, look how good she is to me." I actually liked the lady, it wasn't about jealousy at all, but if I mentioned it to my H, he would have said, "It's sad that you're so insecure and jealous. I don't know what your problem is, Mom loves you." To this day, I've never mentioned it to him. I just welcomed the lady and said I liked her. About a month later, MIL and lady had a falling out and they're not friends anymore.    

His admission of "okay it was a little weird" came in the midst of a good deal of explaining, but I am going to choose to believe that like you, it's not because he doesn't care about how I feel. The defense and explaining has more to do with the fact that he resists accepting it...and his explaining doesn't need to invalidate the "weird" admission. So you're right, this is a big deal and he should get kudos.

I told him later that he doesn't need to fear that I'll attack his mom if he simply validates the way I feel. If he validates my emotion, it may have the opposite effect - I will calm down and might even try to understand his mom (seeing all sides is very much in my nature). Do you think that helped?

Right after therapy I asked him if maybe his mom was hurting others because she was feeling hurt. I used two examples to show the pattern and suggested that it was like she went off the rails just a bit and it was motivated by her pain, which she wasn't managing well (he will kind of admit she doesn't manage emotional pain):

1. 5 months ago, she was hurt that we didn't want her to move in with us, which is why she 'poked' at me about their plan to move her into the house until she got a reaction

2. At Thanksgiving, she was hurt because I chose to play cards instead of sit with her, so she felt the need to hurt me by bringing up his ex

He said, "Maybe."

Do you think that's a more helpful way to approach it?

Were the kids present when he said what he said during the game?

Kids were present for his cussing and yelling at the TV, but not for the comment about ripping the kids new a-holes for disrespecting him. He doesn't feel the freedom to let his anger loose on my kids, which is what he resents me for - he thinks he has the right to say whatever he wants in his home.

So, before our current bought of NC with my family, whenever we would go visit my parents, I would allow myself to think my wife was having a good time and was OK. Turns out, she wasn't, she was just doing a convincing job of putting on her happy face. Combine that with my desperate need for peace and getting along, and it was easy for me to fool myself, which in turn would dial down my sensitivity to my wife's needs/feelings while there.

You've really nailed it, I can see this is what's happening with us too. The MC has told me before that until he gets some time away from his mom, he will never be able to see what is going on. Because they speak every day, he is receiving daily messages about expected behavior, constant pressure.

After therapy he did say that he would try to be more in touch with how I was feeling at his mom's house. I said thank you.

I didn't say this, but for my sake, I won't have any expectations. I will still take care of myself. If he can be watchful or aware, that will be nice, but I can't go into his mom's house with my guard down, that's for sure!

I always appreciate your input, PD. I'm following your story (wow) and will hop over to your thread to comment shortly.

[ProudDad12]

I'm glad to have helped, I was worried I may have unintentionally glossed over your concerns more than I should. I know this is hard stuff, and sometimes a tightrope for both partners! Was just trying to help find positives where I could!

It's relieving that I'm not the only DIL that's had to go through this, although I'm sorry your wife had to go through it. It's petty and hurtful.

Definitely not just you! It's even worse when they deny it ever happened if you try to say something (right before they bring out all the things you've supposedly done to hurt them).

But for some levity you might get a kick out of this... last year, my sister's MIL said something similar. My mom was furious about it, and was complaining about it... to my wife! I can't tell if my mom is that clueless or just has the audacity. But somehow my wife managed to hold her tongue.

His admission of "okay it was a little weird" came in the midst of a good deal of explaining, but I am going to choose to believe that like you, it's not because he doesn't care about how I feel. The defense and explaining has more to do with the fact that he resists accepting it...and his explaining doesn't need to invalidate the "weird" admission. So you're right, this is a big deal and he should get kudos.

I certainly hope I'm not off base with it, because I don't want to mislead. For what it's worth, I'm realizing there's another angle I forgot to mention. Early on when I struggled to acknowledge or admit any wrongdoing on my mom's part, another reason I struggled was because there was way more "tied" to it than I realized. Almost as if admitting any small infraction was wrong meant I was committing a huge betrayal, or crossing a line I couldn't cross. Like I was committing a cardinal sin. I obviously don't know your H's thought's, but it's possible that it really is a much bigger step on the inside than it appears on the outside. And until he truly opens his eyes, it unfortunately does sometimes take a lot of explaining. There were times I would refuse to even listen to that. Now my wife is grateful that she can make jokes at my mom's expense (coping mechanism), and I can actually laugh at them more often than not (as opposed to getting angry).

I told him later that he doesn't need to fear that I'll attack his mom if he simply validates the way I feel. If he validates my emotion, it may have the opposite effect - I will calm down and might even try to understand his mom (seeing all sides is very much in my nature). Do you think that helped?

You know, you're hitting on a very important part, and one that has been crucial for us. Before I understood the concept of validating my wife's thoughts and feelings, I resisted everything she said or felt that I didn't agree with. It because black and white, right or wrong, her way or my way. And me resisting was an awful thing for us. Our T helped me to understand the concept of validating her thoughts and feelings, and showed me I could even do it when I didn't agree with her! That was a huge step for me, and really helped us. And now we're at a point where I agree with her more times than not.

I definitely think what you said may have helped. I would definitely recommend exploring the idea of validation with your MC so he can understand what it means, and the benefit it will have for both of you.

Do you think that's a more helpful way to approach it?

I think so. To me, if you can get the message across that her actions are not OK or are out of line, then it's a win and laying groundwork for potential realizations later. A trick to that is to not characterize his mom as a bad person, and your approach there accomplished that.

He doesn't feel the freedom to let his anger loose on my kids, which is what he resents me for - he thinks he has the right to say whatever he wants in his home.

Hope he comes around on that one too... it's not just his home!

Because they speak every day, he is receiving daily messages about expected behavior, constant pressure.

Yeah, he definitely needs to get away from that somehow! Not sure how, but that much communication makes breaking way from enmeshment very difficult. Hoping y'all can find a way to get some relief on that one.

Hang in there, we're here for you!

[pursuingJoy]

Definitely not just you! It's even worse when they deny it ever happened if you try to say something (right before they bring out all the things you've supposedly done to hurt them).

So true. Mostly my MIL doesn't remember. Sometimes I think that's true, other times I think it's an excuse.

But for some levity you might get a kick out of this... last year, my sister's MIL said something similar. My mom was furious about it, and was complaining about it... to my wife! I can't tell if my mom is that clueless or just has the audacity. But somehow my wife managed to hold her tongue.

Your wife has achieved Level:Expert. #lifegoals   

Early on when I struggled to acknowledge or admit any wrongdoing on my mom's part, another reason I struggled was because there was way more "tied" to it than I realized. Almost as if admitting any small infraction was wrong meant I was committing a huge betrayal, or crossing a line I couldn't cross. Like I was committing a cardinal sin.

This makes so much sense! I'm thinking he's struggling with the same. As a parent, it hurts me. I don't ever want my children bearing a burden this heavy. 

You know, you're hitting on a very important part, and one that has been crucial for us. Before I understood the concept of validating my wife's thoughts and feelings, I resisted everything she said or felt that I didn't agree with. It because black and white, right or wrong, her way or my way. And me resisting was an awful thing for us. Our T helped me to understand the concept of validating her thoughts and feelings, and showed me I could even do it when I didn't agree with her! That was a huge step for me, and really helped us. And now we're at a point where I agree with her more times than not.

It makes so much sense that this is tied to the black and white thinking. I need to do better with validating his feelings (it's hard when he's losing his temper), but it almost seems impossible for him. I can tell him, "I am feeling this way, and these are the types of things you could say in response to make me feel heard/validated..." and he will do everything he possibly can to avoid the validation, instead explaining, defending, justifying, and sometimes blaming me. It happened twice in counseling and it was odd.

I'm doing a little better at managing my emotions. I get less hurt and I am trying really hard to observe what's happening more clinically. Like you once said, it's not personal against me. 

Hope he comes around on that one too... it's not just his home!

That's actually something I might tell him in a kind way.

Thanks PD. I know you weren't enmeshed to the same degree but it is helpful to hear you validate that space might help him break away from her a little. I won't suggest it, it would be terrifying to him, but I'll tuck it away.

As always, I so appreciate your perspective, experience and ideas. Keep us posted on what's going on in your corner too.

pj

[Methuen]

We had a long conversation about how he views respect, which is pretty narrow: say yes sir, yes ma'am, and do what your parents tell you to do. The fact that I didn't raise my kids to say yes sir means they are disrespectful and he feels justified in his anger. The fact that D14 says yes sir, but doesn't say it loud enough, means that she is trying to take control and she should be punished for that.

I agree with you that this view of respect is pretty narrow  

The paragraph just made me think he is running "his" house somewhat like the "general" would run a regiment of soldiers...giving the orders, them not asking questions, hearing yes sir/no sir back in a loud voice...but I may be way off there.

Does he have a "relationship" with any kids in the house (yours or his)?  By that I mean is there affection or love, emotional connection, humour, give and take, negotiation, "attachment"?  Does he do things for the kids, or activities with the kids? Does he enjoy the kids?  

MC suggested that we schedule a time to talk each week. I'm struggling with that a little. I don't want to talk to him because it feels like a pointless endeavor

I told the MC I didn't know what to talk about. Our relationship is so volatile. He 'fights' while I 'flight' and we're at extremes with this right now.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around this PJ.

You seem to have so much you could talk about with MC.

Is it possible there are some important things you don't feel safe talking about, even with MC?

I'm wondering if you keep a journal?  If not, is that something you could be interested in?  In my retirement after my career job, I worked for a non-profit that supports women, and we used to offer each woman a journal to write in.  Some did, some said no thanks.  I remember this one woman in particular that really spoke to how much the journal helped her.  It was cathartic for her to put all that stuff down on paper at the time, but it also helped her to realize/analyse/observe her situation, and then later on, to see her situation from a different perspective than the time when she was writing those things down.  She felt it helped give her clarity.  Journaling isn't for everyone.  Some people hate it.  It's just a random thought.

[formflier]

As a general statement, if there are things you don't feel comfortable talking about...I think you should clarify your feelings on this to your hubby, and then talk about what you don't want to talk about.

Perhaps talk about this with MC and hubby and set the expectation that when you bring up a "touchy" subject that your hubby is deliberate about giving you lots of space, at least for the first few conversations.

How does this suggestion feel to you? 

Best,

FF

[pursuingJoy]

Does he have a "relationship" with any kids in the house (yours or his)?  By that I mean is there affection or love, emotional connection, humour, give and take, negotiation, "attachment"?  Does he do things for the kids, or activities with the kids? Does he enjoy the kids?  

His, yes. Limited and seemingly decreasing with my D14, almost nothing with D16, indifferent with D19. They're mostly civil to each other.

As far as holding conversations with him, the best way to describe it is I would say something, and he would say "nuh uh." Except I was telling him how I was feeling, and he would get angry. I tried this way too long and just kept hurting myself. It hurts my feelings too much to talk to him about his mom until he is able to at least listen, maybe even validate. I'll find ways to care for myself until then.

I don't journal but i do type up and save accounts of things that happen, and I write here. And I've told the MC all of this. I would guess my level of emotion makes it difficult for her to know if it's happening the way I say or just my perception. She mostly works from what is shared jointly, which is her role.

Perhaps talk about this with MC and hubby and set the expectation that when you bring up a "touchy" subject that your hubby is deliberate about giving you lots of space, at least for the first few conversations.

That is a good suggestion! A huge part of me wants to tweak it a bit to say that for now, conversations about my feelings re: his mom are still off the table. He is unable to control his emotions, and I'm too vulnerable. He can say things to me about his mom if he wants, but I won't bring my feelings or concerns to him. The other day after therapy he said he would try to be more mindful about my feelings at his mom's house. I said thank you. I am not sure what that will look like and he didn't specify so I have no expectation. Until I see his behavior change, what he says doesn't hold a lot of weight.

I can carefully, once a week broach a conversation about my kids, our second-most hot topic, because I trust my ability to maintain an even keel and facilitate a discussion that validates him.

Maybe if this works I can take on more. Maybe validating him will bring him back to a place of calm and he may feel more willing to listen.

[formflier]

I'm curious why you would want your feelings of limits?

How will you ever figure out if he is able to be respectful with your feelings, if you don't share them?

I'm not saying you are right or wrong, just trying to understand better.

Best,

FF

[pursuingJoy]

Just my feelings about his mom when we're home alone. We've been talking about the importance of validation for 5 months in counseling (we go once a week) and he hasn't shown any progress. I think he equates validation of my feelings with admitting his mom is wrong in some way. Even with coaching from the MC, he doesn't seem able to validate.

I'm not taking that on at home alone. I think it's fair to wait until it's a little safer.

[formflier]

 
OK, much clearer now.  Do you rollplay in MC? 

In other words, can you guys "practice" the conversation in MC and when you, he and the MC all agree that he just validated you, then you are ready to try the conversation at home?

Do I have that right?

Can you write out a sentence or two of how the conversation would go (he said she said) where you would feel validated?

then perhaps write out how the conversation goes where he doesn't validate you.

FF goal:   If you can succinctly explain/present the idea here, I think the chances of doing so in MC (or some other conversation with your hubby) goes way up.

What do you think?

Best,

FF

[Imatter33]

PJ, so much good work I am reading about. I know it is tiring but I really sense a new resolve in you that may be giving you new energy. And perhaps that comes from the power of the validation that this online community gives us. 

His admission of "okay it was a little weird" came in the midst of a good deal of explaining, but I am going to choose to believe that like you, it's not because he doesn't care about how I feel. The defense and explaining has more to do with the fact that he resists accepting it...and his explaining doesn't need to invalidate the "weird" admission. So you're right, this is a big deal and he should get kudos.

I told him later that he doesn't need to fear that I'll attack his mom if he simply validates the way I feel. If he validates my emotion, it may have the opposite effect - I will calm down and might even try to understand his mom (seeing all sides is very much in my nature). Do you think that helped?

Great job stating what you need from him, what was his response? If it wasn't immediate at least you guys talked this out and you said he seemed to be hearing you. Awesome.

(he will kind of admit she doesn't manage emotional pain):

1. 5 months ago, she was hurt that we didn't want her to move in with us, which is why she 'poked' at me about their plan to move her into the house until she got a reaction

2. At Thanksgiving, she was hurt because I chose to play cards instead of sit with her, so she felt the need to hurt me by bringing up his ex

He said, "Maybe."

Do you think that's a more helpful way to approach it?

It sounds like he is slowly seeing what you are talking about, but bc his awareness at this stage is slower than you'd like, I urge you to know your issues with his mom,  probably are just starting to remove the veil that has been over his eyes. You may be causing him to see his own troubles with her, that he has been repressing. (Only a possibility)
I think validating her having hurt feelings is the right approach because it signifies you don't mean disrespect to MIL. Which I can tell is paramount to your H.
I might add, "And I really don't want to keep hurting your feelings either, H. I am so sorry if I have, I appreciate you communicating to me like this.   ... How does that feel to you PJ?

I suggest it because as a child of BPD, i seek validation and appreciation of that my feelings "matter"

Kids were present for his cussing and yelling at the TV, but not for the comment about ripping the kids new a-holes for disrespecting him. He doesn't feel the freedom to let his anger loose on my kids, which is what he resents me for - he thinks he has the right to say whatever he wants in his home.

My gut response is that he feels personally disrespected much of the time and the kids are just unintentional targets.  f i talked to my mom everyday I would for sure blow up a lot. And not at her, bc years of living with and managing make it not safe to do so. Enter in wife and kids that he loves and feels safe with...He's probably pretty volcanic.

Because they speak every day, he is receiving daily messages about expected behavior, constant pressure. \
After therapy he did say that he would try to be more in touch with how I was feeling at his mom's house. I said thank you. 

I didn't say this, but for my sake, I won't have any expectations. I will still take care of myself.

The more that you emotionally detach and take care of you, the more free you will feel even if you have to be over there.  PJ, Keep it up.

[pursuingJoy]

OK, much clearer now.  Do you rollplay in MC?  

In other words, can you guys "practice" the conversation in MC and when you, he and the MC all agree that he just validated you, then you are ready to try the conversation at home.

Role play and writing conversations down makes sense. I've offered specific examples of things he could say, he ignored and JADE-ed. I've also mentioned specific statements he makes that make me feel invalidated, and he replied by using those very statements. I sense a really strong emotional resistance which I can't understand unless he equates validating me with betraying his mom. At his core it feels very very wrong to him to let his mom take any responsibility.

I'll suggest role play to the MC so she can bring it up. I don't think he'll do it if I suggest it.

Imatter thanks for your encouragement. This online community is a huge blessing for me! In answer to your question, when I talked to him about validating me, he didn't really say anything. To be honest, I don't think much of anything I say is actually being absorbed due to his emotional resistance.

Thanks for letting me know I'm on the right track with validating her feelings. I have brought up her hurt feelings several times very intentionally to make sure that he knows I am aware. I agree that this respect thing is really huge to him, and I think it's worth talking about that in our next MC sessions. He is somehow tying respect to control and I suspect he may need to untangle the two.  

When he told me how upset his mom was about Thanksgiving because I didn't sit down with the two of them and just talk the whole time, that she had no idea what she had done that was so bad and it wasn't "fair," I wanted to say UNFAIR? but I stayed calm. I said I was sorry that her feelings were hurt. I added that I had taken a huge step in initiating the visit to her, worked hard to be respectful, didn't act hurt or resentful, I was engaged and overall the energy during the visit was great. I added that this type of visit was as good as it would get, indefinitely, unless something changed on her end.

I made that last statement very intentionally to set realistic expectations in counseling where we have a 3rd party witness. He was really angry with me a few weeks ago for not "making more progress." I found out that he had spent the last 5 months reassuring his mom that I was coming around. He got to a point where he finally "realized I'd been leading him on this whole time." He even called me a liar. That was a very weird twilight moment for me.

Maybe he was hoping it was all me, that I'd come around, and in his disappointment, he just came at me because...I was there?

This genuinely is a bizarre experience sometimes.

Super interesting that you agree that talking to her every day has an impact. I've heard that from a few others here too, and the MC has told me before, "Until he gets some space from her, he won't be able to see it." I don't know what to do with that, except hope and pray that somehow it works out to get space from her.

He went 5 days without talking to her while we were on vacation in Oct. He called as soon as he got back and she launched into guilt-tripping. It's weird. And I swear this is a relatively new development, like she's turned up the heat in the past 5 years. I don't remember them being inseparable when I was dating/newly married. When I met him she was mad at him for having an affair on his previous wife. I remember this because she would tell anyone who would sit still long enough, what he'd done. He hated it. I remember her being angry with him and he just seemed to accept it, but it made him sad.

Thanks for being here.

[formflier]

Pursuing Joy

What has the MC asked you to do differently in the way you relate to your husband?  How is that going?

What else has she asked him to change to way the relates to you in the marriage?

About how many sessions have you had with the MC?

Best,

FF

[pursuingJoy]

She recommended that I consider visiting his mom, which I've done twice in the past month. She recommended to both of us that we work on validating each other and that we work on active, empathetic listening.

We've met with her for about 5 months almost every week. We may have missed 2-3 weeks, about 4 of those sessions have been individual sessions...so about 13-14 joint sessions, give or take?

[formflier]

What comments does she  have on what you are working on?  What does your husband say about the new way of your relating to him?

Best,

FF

[pursuingJoy]

What comments does she  have on what you are working on?  What does your husband say about the new way of your relating to him?

Best,

FF

Forgot to add in my previous response that she tasked us with having one conversation about his mom at home each week.

Do you mean feedback for us on how we're doing? As of the last session, she said, "You still need to work on validating statements, but I can tell you both really want to work this out."

I don't know how he feels but that would be a good question to ask him. If I was to take an educated guess, overall he seems disappointed in me for not 'making progress' (ie, getting over being hurt by his mom and allowing things to go back to normal). In our conversation about kids the other night he did appreciate me validating his feelings of being disrespected in our home. He talked a good deal and seemed to feel better at the end of it. I found the conversation a very intense and exhausting one, so I think he was confused as to why I didn't feel relief like I did.

Your questions sound very pointed but I'm not sure what you're getting at.

[formflier]

Your questions sound very pointed but I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Did she offer examples of what would constitute an improvement.

So, she says you need to do better at X.  What do you say or how will you "know" that you are doing better?  It doesn't sound like she wants "more".  It sounds like she wants something different.'

I'm asking pointed questions because it doesn't seem like there is clarity on what you are attempting to improve.  (perhaps better said "how you will measure improvement")

Validation is a tricky topic for some and can easily get mixed up with listening and agreement.  So, if you guys are weak at this, I would hope there is lots of direct instruction so each of you can identify validation and then evaluate it on a good, better, best scale.

Switching gears.  I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that  it would be helpful for you to stop making educated guesses about your husbands feelings.  If it matters ask.  If he doesn't respond or if you choose not to ask, work on blissfully moving on with your life. 
 
Note:  All of the things I'm mentioning here are things I've personally experienced in MC (and found either helpful or unhelpful).

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

There may be some black-and-white thinking going on with your husband. It seems he has trouble thinking that someone can have a negative trait of behavior without being "all bad" or that two people can disagree without one being right/gold and the other wrong/bad.

The other phrase that comes to me about your husband is "stop feeling her emotions for her." He does take on his mom's emotions.

[formflier]

I agree that black and white is likely playing a massive part in this.

One of the reasons I'm being a bit pointed around the subject of validation is that sometimes validation can "soften" black and white and lead to some nuance showing up.

This will hopefully come from both parties to a marriage understanding and using validation more effectively.  Or at least "appreciating" attempts at validation.

Best,

FF

[pursuingJoy]

GaGrl that's a very timely observation. I was thinking just last night about a way to bring up his black and white thinking. And FF it makes sense that validation 'softens' black and white thinking.

I love the "dont feel her emotions for her" statement. I also have been thinking a lot about Imatter's airbag analogy. I'm hoping that I can find ways in the future to weave these into our MC, maybe even follow up conversations.

[formflier]

Think of validation as "oil" in your engine.  Makes things run smooth, but it won't "fix" a fundamentally broken engine.

Also consider validation next to "invalidation".    10 validations equals 1 invalidation.  Yes, invalidation is that powerful.

So, if you have limited time and resources, should you focus on being a better validator or focus on NOT invalidating? 

Think about invalidation as really coarse sand that you are dumping in your engine.  At some point it won't matter how much oil is in there.  Invalidation (sand) can take a fundamentally sound engine and break it, so imagine what it will do if the engine is on it's last legs (has a PD).


Best,

FF

[pursuingJoy]

Great analogy, FF! Very helpful.

[Methuen]

he did appreciate me validating his feelings of being disrespected in our home

Is he actually being disrespected in the home, or is he feeling disrespected because of how he is interpreting events or situations?

I guess I'm thinking about your post where he had an angry reaction during a game on TV with the kids in the room and the cake being baked.  When the kids reacted to his anger with a nervous laugh, he interpreted this as disrespect.  Really, it wasn't disrespect, it was misunderstanding, because he was super angry (at how the game was evolving?) and his words/behavior made the kids nervous (many people will giggle or laugh when they are nervous), and everybody felt a little less safe around that anger.

So IF he is misinterpreting words or behavior as disrespect, or (demanding respect that hasn't been earned), and you validate his feelings of disrespect, I'm just wondering if that could be validating the invalid?  A book I'm reading recommended by my T, Loving Someone with Borderline Personality Disorder (by Shari Manning) has a lot of chapters around validation.  I get the feeling validation is more complicated than many of us understand (I am trying to learn and understand and practice it).  P57/58 makes the point of validation NOT being the same thing as agreement (although in some cases it can be).  

It sounds like H demands respect in the home.  Respect is a really big thing for him.  But it also sounds like he doesn't always treat you or your kids with respect.  So I am wondering if you can validate his FEELINGS of being disrespected, but do so without him thinking that you are AGREEING with him that he actually IS being disrespected... The author goes on to explain that validating the invalid can even be dangerous because it can mean reinforcing, through ones own reaction, a behavior that is harmful.

I'm not suggesting this is what is happening.  I'm actually not clear on what is happening, so I'm just putting the idea out there.  The quote above just caught my attention, especially since he seems to be carrying a lot of anger, be feeling disrespected, and yet not always be saying nice things to you or your kids.  It seems quite tricky.  It is also hard (if not impossible) to have full understanding of a complex situation with one-way written communication.  

I'm in awe of how hard you are working at all this, in a chronically stressed situation.  Five months is a long time.  You are clearly a special person putting 110% of you into this relationship.  I think you are amazing.

[formflier]

I think this can get a lot better, without any change whatsoever from the Mom or the hubby.

Imagine this for a minute.  You and your hubby are dancing.  You change your dance moves, if your hubby wants to keep dancing, can he keep doing the old moves or is it likely he will eventually change so the dance goes easier (more fluid)?

I can appreciate this doesn't seem "fair" that you "have to" be the one to initiate change.  (many people look at it this way)

I would hope you can look at it as a demonstration of YOUR POWER in the relationship.  You can "force" change even if your hubby is voting against it.  (yes, it would be easier if he goes along with it, but that's not the point.)

I'm going to point out some alternatives that if done correctly...will shift things.

When he told me how upset his mom was about Thanksgiving because I didn't sit down with the two of them and just talk the whole time, that she had no idea what she had done that was so bad and it wasn't "fair," I wanted to say UNFAIR?

Point of clarity.  So the Mom asked you to come sit with them and talk the whole time and instead you went and did you own thing?

Do I have that right?

Did you tell them no or just ignore the request?

sorry[/b] that her feelings were hurt.

Before I can comment too much on this, it's likely best to clarify if you actually have something to apologize or be sorry for.

If you don't then I wouldn't say an apology or express sorrow, because it's unlikely her feelings are hurt and more likely she is being manipulative.

Big picture:  Be very very careful and judicious with apologies and expressions of sorrow.

Once we clarify what actually happened.  We will likely spend more time here.

I added that I had taken a huge step in initiating the visit to her, worked hard to be respectful, didn't act hurt or resentful, I was engaged and overall the energy during the visit was great.

Are you familiar with the term JADE?  Big JADE alert above.  I'm assuming you were not asked for this input..correct?

I added that this type of visit was as good as it would get, indefinitely, unless something changed on her end.

Drawing lines in the sand is rarely helpful.  Such clarity can be a good thing with boundaries, but I don't believe that's what this is.

Do you see how there is a implicit (or perhaps some would say explicit), unless she does X this situation will never get better?  (separate issue if that is true...and I'll say this is a reasonable analysis on your part)

Much better to "puzzle aloud" about the cantankerous behavior and wonder how that affects things. 

I made that last statement very intentionally to set realistic expectations in counseling where we have a 3rd party witness. 

How we view the counselor is a big deal.  They really aren't a "witness" or  "judge" or any of that.  I would hope you see them as a "coach" with expert information.  They can give tips and all that, but then the players take the field and do what they do.

Best,

FF

[pursuingJoy]

Methuen, love that you're perpetually learning! You make me think!

The way I approached the conversation was to say, "You've told me many times that you feel disrespected in our home.  I'd like to understand more about how you define respect and see if there is anything we can do to improve the way you feel." I'm sure that I didn't say things perfectly from there but it was a shot at a more in depth conversation per the counselor.

[Harri]

This thread has reached the post limit and has been split and locked.  Part 2 is here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=341526.msg13091090#msg13091090

Thank you.