Enmeshed husband admitted his BPD mom's behavior was 'weird' - Part 2

[pursuingJoy]

Mod Note:  Part 1 of this thread is here - https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=341436.0

FF, agree that I have power. Learning how to change the dance steps takes work.

You're going a little too fast for me (water hose!   and I'm starting to feel like everything I do is being critiqued so I'll answer some of your questions and focus on validation.

MIL and H never asked me to come sit with them, which would have been a good point to make to him in counseling. I initiated card games with kids to keep them off their phones, and to give myself a positive and constructive distraction.

After H shared his thoughts on how he thought the visit went (moms feelings were hurt) the counselor asked for my input about how the visit went for me and how I felt, which is when I acknowledged his moms feelings by apologizing that she felt hurt, then shared about how proud I was of the way I handled myself.

According to the tool on this site, validation is about accepting, not rejecting, another's feelings. Validation of feelings does not equate to agreement with actions. But you caution about using an apology or expression of sorrow. What statements or approaches do you think would have been better? Would simply exploring his mom's perspective have been sufficient?

I know you're not trying to overwhelm me. I'd greatly appreciate your insight into the validation piece.

[formflier]

  But you caution about using an apology or expression of sorrow. What statements or approaches do you think would have been better? Would simply exploring his mom's perspective have been sufficient?

 

OK, being mindful of firehose...     I stick to one thing for now.  OK?



An argument can be made that by apologizing/sorrow for NOT being able to read another person's mind, that you are validating the invalid.

Let's keep on with this for a bit.  She is likely also "shocked" and perhaps "stunned" (and variations of this) that you didn't read her mind and do as she wanted you to do.

Not only can you validate this in the moment...but you can COMPLETELY AGREE with her.

So when the Mom expressed hurt (or whatever)

"Oh my...I wish I had known.  I'm shocked. (with perhaps some tone of befuddlement)  This is important! What do you suppose would make this go better next time?"

(note..."hand things back to them to solve" don't give them solutions)

Note:  What you did wasn't "wrong".  Perhaps in some relationships it would have worked.  It doesn't appear it worked here.  So try something else. 

Lot's of trial and error here.  Use "law of natural consequences" as a guide.  (in this case, if you don't speak up, people don't know what's on your mind)

I'll join others who have remarked at how hard you are working!  Keep it up!

Best,

FF

[Harri]

The way I approached the conversation was to say, "You've told me many times that you feel disrespected in our home.  I'd like to understand more about how you define respect and see if there is anything we can do to improve the way you feel."

I think this was excellent to say to your husband!

PJ, it sounds to me like you have a really good and natural way of talking about this stuff with your husband.  I think you have a good handle on validation and I *really* like what Methuen added about not validating the invalid.  It can happen sometimes and yes, validation can be tricky.  There is an art to it.  Actually there is to all of the tools and the biggest part is knowing which to use when.
Validation is just one tool in the box.  It is not something I would use when a person is very dysregulated and very upset for example and what works for one person might not work for you.  So keep doing you.   

One thing I keep thinking as I read through your threads is that we are spending a lot of time focusing on your husband and not so much on you.  So first a bit of validation!    I want to say I think you are handling things very well and have really embraced a lot of what we talk about here and not just embraced it but are applying it well.  The tools take practice and tweaking over time as things change as we gain insight and more confidence.   

I know you just wrote you are feeling like things are moving fast here.  But (!) this next part is really about helping you and possibly getting your needs met and improving your chances of being heard.  I am going to suggest that you read about using another tool called SET. https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=143695.0

Just tuck it away for when you are ready, though it sounds like you may already be using it to an extent?  BTW, this is also not a tool I would suggest if your husband is very upset.  I wanted to mention it though as we can focus too much on one tool and that is not good especially when we are not getting our own needs met. 

BTW, the book Methuen mentioned is excellent according to a lot of our members who have read it.  We have a review and discussion here:  Loving Someone with Borderline Personality Disorder

[pursuingJoy]

The "I wish I had known" response makes a lot of sense, FF. I could definitely see me using that in a genuine and effective way.

Harri, thank you. I really appreciate your encouragement.   Did some reading last night on SET. In my toddler way I think that's exactly what I wanted to achieve but didn't know how, so your timing is perfect.

I'm practicing SET using the same scenario (this is assuming that my H is not upset):

S: I care about you and how you feel.
E: I know you're upset that your mom felt hurt/frustrated at Thanksgiving.
T: Since tensions are still high, you and I agreed that short, structured visits (with activities) to your mom would ensure that they are successful and function for all parties. What you are suggesting is unstructured time with open dialogue that we've agreed could lead to more conflict. I want to explore what this change from structured to unstructured could mean to future visits.  

This sounds so mechanical.

I want to validate his emotion, not his mom's. (Although like GaGrl said, their emotions are one and the same. He will likely feel validated if I validate her. Ugh.)

I dont want to offer to do it differently next time because I'm not ready. We agreed to fill time with activities so that there wouldn't be down time.

It's a big deal that I am visiting her. She is incapable of appreciating that, but my H is not. I want the truth piece to bring some perspective beyond his mom's hurt.

[pursuingJoy]

Ugh. So I did what I said I wouldn't - talk to him about his mom. Kicking myself.

Two hours later, we didnt yell, but we both felt like we talked in circles. He quickly went to, "if you don't like her, why even bother." I repeated my response to the same question in MC, but it devolved and I stupidly followed him down the rabbit trail.

We agree that we are both miserable and we want it to get better. We do not agree on how.  He thinks the person who is frustrated should handle it (I should address my issues directly with his mom, he should be able to say what he wants to my kids). In contrast I want to work together in both situations to develop a plan that works for both of us and doesn't result in bull/China shop scenarios.

Interesting, though, he described his position as being in a fog that he was powerless to change. I thought that was ironic considering how we use FOG here. He also asked me to just pretend that I was ok around her for the sake of a happy visit.

I do regret talking to him. We both feel so much worse. For now it's better to save these conversations for MC. Live and learn.

[GaGrl]

Don't beat yourself up. You learned he isn't ready yet for conversations about his mom. Take that back to MC.

On FOG...that's valuable. Can you tell him his reference to fog reminded you of reading about Fear-Obligation-Guilt, and then talk about how you have felt that fog sometimes? Nothing about him or his mom, just your past experiences. Let him take it and perhaps apply it to his own experiences.

And really, don't stop planning activities. If his mom is sitting with the two of you with nothing but conversation happening, she's going to see something and comment on it inappropriately (even if it's the freckle below your left eye).

[pursuingJoy]

I'm processing my own post . Ugh. I dont know if it was right to talk to him or not.  

Important to note that he invited me over to talk to him and talk about what was stressing me/us.  

He recognized (huge) that she desperately needs to be in counseling. His words. She will not. Again, his words.

In spite of that, he takes a very firm stance that the right thing to do is just forgive her behavior. Hard to describe but he got a dark look on his face when he talked about how serious his responsibility was to be there for her in her old age. He cited the Bible, family values, the sheer immorality of not doing so.  

He said just cut her off if you don't like her. I asked him if that was really what he wanted, and how he thought that choice would impact our relationship. He said he would struggle with resenting me.

I acknowledged that it was uncomfortable for all, but it was important to talk through it.

So although he invited me to talk, at the end he said he was so sick of talking, it goes nowhere. Uuuggghhh.

[pursuingJoy]

Don't beat yourself up. You learned he isn't ready yet for conversations about his mom. Take that back to MC.

On FOG...that's valuable. Can you tell him his reference to fog reminded you of reading about Fear-Obligation-Guilt, and then talk about how you have felt that fog sometimes? Nothing about him or his mom, just your past experiences. Let him take it and perhaps apply it to his own experiences.

And really, don't stop planning activities. If his mom is sitting with the two of you with nothing but conversation happening, she's going to see something and comment on it inappropriately (even if it's the freckle below your left eye).

Thanks GaGrl I needed all of this. Freckle below your left eye made me literally laugh out loud  I don't want to change the structured visits, they work well.

Why didn't i see this before? This is them pushing on a boundary. No need to get upset, I can calmly  hold firm to the boundary.

Super good idea to bring up the actual acronym! Why didn't I think of that?

[GaGrl]

Don't be surprised if he feels some of his FOG is coming from you. That's okay. In a general conversation about FOG, you can ask...

What do you read when X happens?

What are you doing because you feel obligated? Would you do that if you didn't feel obligated? Is the obligation fair?

When do you feel guilty?

[formflier]

So although he invited me to talk, at the end he said he was so sick of talking, it goes nowhere.

 

I think you did the right thing by going and talking to him.  He asked (I will assume it sounded genuine, so you responded)  Is this accurate?

I also think that deep reflection and realizing you regret doing the talk or perhaps wish you had done the talk differently is a sign of your strength, vice a sign that you had a "failure". 

Pause here and think for a minute that both things can be completely, 100% true. 

You were "right" to respond and go talk AND you are "right" to set/adjust a boundary about these types of conversations for the future.

Please consider a few things as alternatives.

Instead of saying no talk outside of MC, why not save that as a question you can both ponder "in the moment" when/if it is needed.

To be able to do this it is critically important you can identify when you start "going in circles". 

I used to do this for hours (like many of us).  Now I'm disappointed in myself if I get to three times around.  Most of the time I catch it on the 2nd go around and then address the elephant in the room.

I use two basic "tactics".  One is used for when I believe problem solving is still possible and the other is used when I'm trying to deal with a dysregulation or possible dysregulation.  (Of course if it ever gets abusive, I leave...immediately.)
 
What does that look like?

1.  (problem solving still possible) "I hear you FFw.  To my ear it sounds like a thought which has already been shared.  How do you want me to understand this differently?"

(remember my general advice to "hand work back to them")  See how that plays into my suggestion above?

2.  (dysregulation)  Basically I stop responding direction to "points" and shift to asking about emotions.  "That sounds difficult, how did you/do you feel?"    At a strategic level, using number 2 means I've stopped dealing with the issue at hand and now I'm focused on my wife's feelings.

Lots of information for approach 2 is in article below.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=273415.0


I'll finish by saying again I really like the move of responding and going to talk about this issue.  It shows you have moxie! 

You've go this.  Keep up good work.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

In spite of that, he takes a very firm stance that the right thing to do is just forgive her behavior. Hard to describe but he got a dark look on his face when he talked about how serious his responsibility was to be there for her in her old age. He cited the Bible, family values, the sheer immorality of not doing so.  
 

PursuingJoy

From time to time "religious" discussions will be handled in a separate post and sometimes labeled "Christian Discussion on xyz".

I'm going to suggest this should be handled separately and we'll see what you think and get inputs from moderators.

A very common thing I've noticed is pwBPD want to be "forgiven" but rarely want to do any "reconciling".

Before you go back to your hubby with any of this, it's important you sort out for yourself what "forgiveness" means and what "reconciled" means.

What do you think?

Best,

FF

[pursuingJoy]

We didn't have kids last night so we fell into yet another painful conversation. I'm writing down takeaways so that I can record them and present them in counseling:

1. We agree that our marriage is at stake and that we are both very unhappy.
2. We agree that the biggest issue is our inability to communicate, not my daughter's or his mom's behavior.
3. We disagree on how to handle their behavior. He thinks the person with the issue should handle it. I think we need a team approach because both of us are very sensitive and protective of our loved one.
4. We agree that we are unable to discuss his mom outside of counseling. He hates it because he feels super pressured to play the middle man. I hate it because he is incapable of validating my feelings. Each conversation confirms my suspicion that his mom's feelings supersede mine. Not something we need right now.

My observations:
We've both underestimated the impact of his resentment at "not being allowed to discipline" my daughter. That resentment has been sitting there for two years.

I've stated very bluntly at least 3 times in the past two months that I wasn't concerned with rebuilding a relationship with his mom right now, that my focus was on our marriage. Each time he acts shocked and hurt that I'm not worried about patching things up with his mom, like it is brand new information. He seems to come to grips with what that means and I think he understands until we talk again. It is a bizarre experience.

He told me that I shouldn't "bother going to visit her again unless I'm more friendly to her." It is how his mom feels, and it is also how he feels. He says his opinion is completely independent of his mom.

[formflier]

There is a lot going on here.  Some of what I'm going to suggest is likely no going to "feel fair" (it didn't to me) to you (and I'm likely being polite with "feel fair").

Leadership:  Specifically "emotional leadership".  Part of that is whether or not your are contributing to "turning up the temperature" or "turning it down".

Another phrase or way of looking at it is are you "leading" your relationship closer to "neutral" (on emotional volatility scale) or pushing it towards greater volatility?

So, reflect a bit.  Who is better equipped to be the emotional leader in your relationship?   How do you feel about that?

1. We agree that our marriage is at stake and that we are both very unhappy.
 

First of all, I want you to speak your mind/heart here. 

Second, thinking about being an emotional leader, is it helpful to say that "doom" is at stake?  Wouldn't it be better to just state (in counseling) that each are unhappy and looking for communications solutions to grow closer in your marriage.


I also think it would be productive to talk through HIS vision of "handling it yourself" in counseling.

I'm suggesting vague talk but EXACTLY what does that mean in SPECIFIC situations you ask about.

Wouldn't it shift things to say you are considering attempting to "see it his way", but you want to UNDERSTAND his idea in the way he wants you to understand it.

So let's say you agree to handle his Mom independently of him.  Does that really mean he will also say independent of this process.  What exactly will he say/do when his Mom calls and wants to talk about you? How will he gently decline to discuss you at all?

You and I both know he will likely balk at this point. 

Does he really want to discipline your daughter and have you stay away from that process?


You and I both know that there "has to be" some sort of a team approach.  Will it be more effective for you to explain this to him, for a counselor to explain this to him, or for him to discover this on his own through explaining his own idea.

My observations:
We've both underestimated the impact of his resentment at "not being allowed to discipline" my daughter. That resentment has been sitting there for two years.
 

I feel like I have the "gist" of the dynamic between you, he and his Mom.  Ugg...double and triple uggg.   

I don't feel like I have ANY understanding of the "discipline your daughter issue".  Can you take some time to explain this?  Is he able to give specifics?

I'll make a general statement/question.

Axiom:  The marital relationship is primary?  (agree or disagree)


Part of the issue at hand is that there is a point of view that suggests the Mother-son relationship is primary and the marital relationship is 2nd or lower?

Is there another point of view at work here that suggests the mother daughter relationship is primary and marital relationship is 2nd or lower? 

[pursuingJoy]

We both, very calmly and without disagreement, agree that our marriage is in jeopardy if we don't learn a different way to communicate. I'm thankful for this agreement as he has always insisted our marriage was fine, I just had issues with his mom. We are more on the same page than before.

He wouldn't be comfortable at all with me handling her independently. I explained that I am uncomfortable talking one on one with her, as stories could be changed. I was uncomfortable with us talking with him present because that puts him in the middle. I've maintained that I'm willing to talk to her in counseling/with a counselor (even one of her choosing) but she refuses to go to counseling.

I've explained the dynamic with my daughter in this post:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=341342.0

We both agree that the marriage is a priority but how that needs to look is in question. When he consistently invalidates my opinions, rushes to fix her and dismisses my perspective, makes holiday plans with her first, and consistently feels the way his mom feels, and more...it makes me feel like our marriage is a second priority. He prioritizes his mom's emotions, which makes sense because like GaGrl said, her emotions ARE his. He doesn't have independent emotions.

I've wanted to ask him for a while now what he thinks I want him to do. I feel like he is resisting something I haven't even asked for.

In a similar way, he feels that I prioritize my relationship with my kids over our marriage. I have no issue when he asks them to do something, and if they don't do what he asks, he can demand that they do it. What he resents is that I've asked him to stem the tide of his emotions. He feels they deserve his full anger blow up because they're lazy, selfish, don't think of other people, disrespectful children.  I hear the things he wants to say to them because he says them all to me. I draw a consistent distinction between telling them to clean up and emotionally vomiting on them. 

[formflier]

OK.  So the "kids explanation" was essentially over 1 event..right?

If not, please clarify.

Otherwise, I think top priority is asking him for specific examples that led to his resentment or get him to clarify that he has resentment over this one event.

Then ask him to do some "word for word" on what he actually wants to say/do that he feels prevented from doing.

Don't let him stop at "rip her a new one" or things like that.  What would you actually want to say and let's do some roll play.

Here is the thing.  10 people read "rip her a new one" and you will get 10 ideas of what that means.

Then you finally get to "is that an effective way to parent children?"  What is your expected result?  (You need to stay away from value judgments here.  Let him discover them or let the counselor intervene)

I was aware of the football incident but it sounded like perhaps there is more.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

He wouldn't be comfortable at all with me handling her independently.  

So, then what does he want you to do if you said "fine I'll do it your way".

I mean EXACTLY what does it look like?

How can you handle it and he not be part of a team and him not let you handle it independently.

I'm not dismissing that you don't feel comfortable doing it, I suspect that is moot because he doesn't actually want what he says he wants.

Best,

FF

[pursuingJoy]

Great questions! I'm not sure I can answer them all, some are good questions just to ask him.

The issue with kids started when D16, who was maybe 12 or 13, took the bag of chips. It's really difficult to get to the logic behind his rage about this. He would yell at me for hours in our bedroom, even after I'd disciplined her. I asked him many times what else he wanted to do/say, or what else he'd have me do/say, and other than launch into a tirade about what a horrible child she was he wasn't able to verbalize it.

Second time this issue peaked was when he told D16 last year that he was disappointed in her for having suicidal thoughts. After he said it, I asked him privately not to say this again. It had an adverse effect and she was really vulnerable after being hospitalized for a week. He insisted he knew more about suicide than any of us because his brother had committed suicide.

Unbidden, he went to her and apologized for saying it, then said 'but I want you to know that I am disappointed in you for suicidal thoughts and here's why.' I was there and it's the only time I've ever crossed him in front of any of the kids. I asked him again not to say that to her. That cemented his resentment towards me and her.

Since then, everything from an eye roll, dish left in the sink, shoes left at the door, forgetting to say yes sir has just built up. I am more patient with these things with all of the kids. Are they really forgetting? Nah. They're pushing boundaries. Does losing your temper make them remember? I think there are better ways to parent.

He does not think he should have to be patient with kids. If he feels rage over shoes it is justified rage and the child deserves whatever they get. 

I will continue, in MC, to try to get into specifics of what it might look like to handle his mom his way, and how he wants to change disciplining my daughter.

[formflier]

PursuingJoy

Wow!  I get it now. (as in the dynamic)  OK...

First of all, as a parent I'm completely...100% proud of your for standing up for your daughter when when he "apologized but really wanted to make his point again".

That incident shows you have great instincts.  Has that incident been talked through in that level of detail in MC and if so did MC have anything to say?

How is your daughter doing with SI now?  That must have been a scary time, I'm hoping it is better.

Back to the parenting issue.  What has he expressed in MC that he actually wants to do and is there input from MC.  Specifically I'm wondering if he has expressed the "ripping them a new one" and if there was a response?

Long term I'm thinking this parenting issue may be better served outside of MC.

Learning about marital communication and learning about parenting teenagers that are being typical teenagers  are very different things.  I'm having a hard time imagining how those go together in MC, but I do think you should press hard for EXACTLY and some role play in the next session or two.

Quick FF fact.  I have been the parent of a teenager for 11 years now and by the time my youngest turns 20 I will have parented teens for 29 years...straight...no breaks.  Teens are a very different group.  I'm currently still finding my way with D14, who is very different as a teen that D23. 

Anyway...

Best,

FF

[Spindle0516]

Pursuing Joy, I have been super busy and been away from this board for a little while, but I popped back on last night and have been reading through this thread.

I am so proud of you!

It is obvious that you've been working really hard and I am celebrating every ounce of progress you have made. 

Yay you!

[pursuingJoy]

FF, thanks, she is doing better. She tried medication for severe depression and anxiety but she was frustrated with it. She has found counseling much more effective. Her dad got her a dog, she has some solid friendships at school this year, and she has limited time with my H, which have all helped to stabilize her. She talks to me about wanting to self-harm, but thankfully she's talking and aware, and she doesn't go through with it (to my knowledge).

Quick FF fact.  I have been the parent of a teenager for 11 years now and by the time my youngest turns 20 I will have parented teens for 29 years...straight...no breaks.  Teens are a very different group.  I'm currently still finding my way with D14, who is very different as a teen that D23.  

29 years is a long time with teenagers . They are a different group, aren't they? I've had to do some relearning what it means to be a parent with all three. Most helpful analogy for me, teens are like new swimmers. They want so much to be independent and do it alone, but when they need the wall (parents) they need the wall NOW. And every teen needs a different kind of wall. You have to be able to adapt and become who they need you to be.

I've really enjoyed teen years. They have amazing minds, they're growing and learning and becoming a stronger version of their little selves. I learned the hard way how to not take pushing boundaries personally, and it's paid off.  

You make some very valid points about getting down to the exactly of what he wants to do. I can see us talking about that in MC. It still ties back to communication issues.

Spindle we missed you! Catch us up on what's going on with you and your MIL and H. I'm super thankful for the encouragement. You made me tear up. Thanks for the happiness.  

[formflier]

You make some very valid points about getting down to the exactly of what he wants to do. I can see us talking about that in MC. It still ties back to communication issues.

I would make this top priority for the next session.  If for some reason he is not able to articulate EXACTLY what you could do and he would say "Yes..that's it, I love it..this is wonderful.", then I think at the end of MC it's worth assigning homework that it happens next time OR we find a new direction for this issue (like parenting class or ?)

It might sound something like this "I really want to understand my hubby and come through for him with a "win" on this issue.  I don't know how to do more, because I don't understand what exactly his vision looks like.  Any suggestions on how to move forward on this?"   

What do you think of this?

Best,

FF

[pursuingJoy]

Makes a lot of sense, I like the phrasing. Thanks FF!