When guilt threatens boundaries

[BoyMom]

So my husband and I made our 26 yo son leave the house the day after Christmas. At some point he'll need to return and collect his things to fly back to his home out of state. I got a text from him today, a joke. It was funny but I'm not ready to just yet. Had it been an apology for his behavior, that would be a different story, but he must still be firmly convinced of his righteousness. While we can't tolerate that behavior in our home, and it was right and necessary to make him leave, it's so hard not to feel guilty and heartbroken to know that he's hurting and feeling abandoned. I just want off this ride! And my heart breaks for my other son, his younger brother, who has always been sweet and sensitive, is finishing college with a Psych degree, and wants to be a therapist to "help people" but has no interest in helping his brother. Not that he should be expected to, but it's ironic that he has a heart for helping others but he's OVER IT when it concerns walking on eggshells around his brother. We're all just in limbo around here. Probably the best thing to do is to send brother back to school and invite DS  back into the home IF he's ready to have an adult calm discussion and get his things to fly back. Once everyone is safely back in their own corners I can maybe make a plan without this constant sick dread in the pit of my stomach. Now that's a sad state of affairs..everyone go home so I can get a break and figure out how to bring us all back together without fireworks! It's a long road ahead. Anybody else ever feel the weird mix of panicky lethargy?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[formflier]

Do you feel like sharing some details of what happened?

Do you feel like you should figure out how to get his stuff to him or do you think letting him sort it out is best?

Best,

FF

[BoyMom]

FF,
Basically all was well(ish) until Christmas night, when he and his brothers and cousin and  nephew were playing basketball out back and he fouled. What would normally be just a "my bad" and keep playing turned into a war. He refused to admit to whatever this foul was, screamed at everyone, went upstairs and "looked it up" and he was right and everyone else was wrong, it wasn't a foul, nobody listens to him, blah blah. Hubby and I tried to tell him to calm down, it wasn't worth his reaction, etc. "You weren't out there! You didn't see!" We said it didn't matter what happened out there, it didn't warrant his over reaction. He picked up a soda from the table and slammed it on the ground, splashing the sofa and floor. We told him to clean it up, at first he said he would but he was still fixated on "being right", so I ended up cleaning it up. He went upstairs and got a backpack and a friend picked him up. (We had also threatened to call the police and told he could leave the house on his own or in cuffs). So he returned the next morning and I let him in the house, thinking he'd apologize, because at least twice while he's been here he's been able to pull himself back from the precipice and apologize. But no, he was still fixated on everyone being against him and he was right about the foul and they were all wrong, and I could just see that look in his eye that he was reving up again. So we told him we weren't going to tolerate that behavior in his house and he needed to leave. He told us we were both going to hell and we were terrible parents. One of my boys picked him up at a restaurant behind us and dropped him off at the club, where I guess he showered, before the friend picked him back up and he's been with him ever since. I know we're guilty of enabling him and we've taken the easy way out since he was away at college of "out of sight out of our hair", but we did brief stints of therapy when he was in high school. Of course he knew more than any therapist because he literally thinks he's the smartest person on the planet, at least when he's raging. When he's not raging, he's a sweet sensitive and loving young man. I'm just at my wit's end.

[formflier]

BoyMom

Wow...that must be so frustrating to have a child act out. 

Did you guys do any therapy to learn about what you are dealing with and perhaps learn some more effective "techniques" that might be used to help center him?

I'm not at all excusing his actions, yet I saw several places where there were "on ramps" and "off ramps" to the conflict and it seemed like everyone was having a hard time de-escalating.

Would you like to look at some alternatives that might have led to a more centered (calmer) response?

Best,

FF

[Isanni]

Christmas seems to be very difficult for those with mental health challenges. Our daughter cried while opening the 'most terrible presents.' Then the cuts, refusing to get in the car to go on vacation...

I think you guys are great! You have expectations for decent, normal behavior (even when upset) and you followed through and didn't allow your son to act badly without a consequence of him not being welcomed. You give me courage. We do a disservice to our kids when we allow bad behaviors at home - they will eventfully be eaten up by the real world that won't tolerate it or lose contact with the ones who love them most. And those around who witness our tolerance lose too.

Setting boundaries with our daughter didn't make her love us or stop bad mouthing or swearing at us but it made the home environment more tolerable.

[BoyMom]

FF,
I'm willing to look at ANY alternatives. I tried positive reinforcement when I saw him on at least 2 occasions start to lose his temper and bring it back and I complimented him, told him I knew how hard it was to do that and to then apologize and that I was proud of him for it.
Somewhere on these boards I saw a link to a 12 week course that I signed up for. My husband and I can do it first, it's a start, and I suppose I could leverage the only thing I have to leverage against him as a grown man and that's financial. You have 2 months to figure out a way to pay your own bills, and during those 2 months we will pay for therapy, but if you refuse to seek help and refuse to get a job then we're not going to be the safety net that you verbally abuse. I really hope it doesn't go that far, that would break my heart, but this has been years of him blaming everyone for everything and not taking responsibility for his own actions.  I also went through my entire phone photos and saved all the rage texts he's sent me the last couple of years into its own folder, so I'm ready to show that to him as well.

[formflier]

OK can I point you to a couple articles?

https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=273415.0

https://bpdfamily.com/parenting/03.htm

There are certainly more articles and threads out there, but those should get you going.  Please pay attention to invalidation causing "deep rejection feelings"

As you think about what happened, ask if he acted out like someone that was rejected (even if you didn't intend to reject him.)

Hubby and I tried to tell him to calm down, it wasn't worth his reaction, etc.

My guess is this isn't the first time of telling him to calm down.  Has it worked before?

Consider "joining him" where he is at.  

perhaps
"Hey buddy, what happened?"  (look at validating questions)

Stay away from debating the propriety of the foul...it's not the foul, it's the feelings.  His feelings and they are very very real to him at the moment.

 We said it didn't matter what happened out there, it didn't warrant his over reaction.

Can you see how "didn't matter" could be invalidating?

perhaps
"Hey buddy, so this seems to matter a lot to you...right?"

listen

"So what do you think you should do?"

(see how you don't solve ANYTHING for him)

He picked up a soda from the table and slammed it on the ground, splashing the sofa and floor.

He shouldn't have done this, yet can you see how someone that keeps getting rejected...keeps getting his feeling stomped all over would act out like this?

We told him to clean it up, at first he said he would but he was still fixated on "being right", so I ended up cleaning it up.

What did you teach him about responsibility here?  

Did he say thank you for cleaning up his mess?



 

(We had also threatened to call the police and told he could leave the house on his own or in cuffs).

Can you share more details of how he responded?



  

So we told him we weren't going to tolerate that behavior in his house and he needed to leave.

Did you name the behavior or say "that behavior"?

I know we're guilty of enabling him and we've taken the easy way out since he was away at college of "out of sight out of our hair", but we did brief stints of therapy when he was in high school.

How exactly have you enabled him?

Of course he knew more than any therapist because he literally thinks he's the smartest person on the planet, at least when he's raging. When he's not raging, he's a sweet sensitive and loving young man. I'm just at my wit's end.

How did these other therapy sessions end?  Why were they brief?  Did he have assessments done?

Hey BoyMom, I'm convinced we can help stabilize things.  I think classes and/or therapy for you guys would be great.  Someplace you can roll play and understand validation/invalidation better.

I'm not suggesting "that's all", but I am suggesting that's a good starting point.  Once things have calmed, you can focus on the relationship and identify issues to work on.

Best,

FF

[BoyMom]

Thank you for the links, I'll check them out. The problem is that there is NO getting through to him to ask him validating questions, he will fixate on being right, the temperature is way too high, he's screaming at the top of his lungs, I've got a house full of relatives here, I just wanted to diffuse the situation. When he lashes out, he cuts deep. It's not just the basketball foul, brother is "an idiot" that did something 10 years ago and other brother is "a loser" and everyone is "on drugs", F you, F him, F everyone. In the heat of his outburst, there is no way you can say, "hey buddy" to him, his reaction is so intense I literally fear someone will get hurt. Honestly I'm surprised he didn't rage text me all that night and into the next day but I think he senses that our patience is spent and we'll cut his phone off.

[formflier]

, there is no way you can say, "hey buddy" to him, his reaction is so intense 

So...how is it that it was possible to tell him what you did, but not say "hey buddy..."

It may very well be that silence is the best way forward.  It will take some trial and error.

My overarching point is that if you are going to speak to him DO NOT INVALIDATE (which it appears you did BIGTIME). 

Think of invalidation as dumping gas on a fire.  Seriously..it's that bad.

Validation is not nearly as powerful, so "hey buddy" may not work the first time.  Done consistently it will have a better outcome than invalidation. 

Best,

FF

[Harri]

I would focus on  the "Don't be invalidating" link (the first listed) and leave the others alone for now.  Sometimes the best thing to do is focus on not invalidating when a pwBPD is raging.  Validation is not going to get you far then, and possibly make things worse.  When he is calmer and more centered, you can then use tools like validation more effectively. 

Something like this may help more in a situation like Christmas or the day after:
Calming pwNPD fast with EAR ~ Bill Eddy, LCSW, JD You know your son best.  Do you see this working?  It is okay if you don't think it will work.  Not all tools work in all situations.

When he's not raging, he's a sweet sensitive and loving young man.

Are you able to discuss things calmly with him when he is not raging?  If so, it may be the time to talk about boundaries regarding his behavior in your home.   Let him know he is wanted and welcome but he can not let out his anger the way he does.  He may get upset, so end the conversation and then when you can and he calms again, go back to it.

Thoughts?

[PeaceMom]

Harri,
Thanks for sharing this way to specially respond to one who is experiencing an extreme state. It reminds me of the LEAP method (listen, empathize, agree and partner) we were taught to use w/DS BiPolar cycling.
I like EAR better and will be writing this on note cards to use w/DD uBPD. Validating her can be almost impossible when she’s seriously dysregulated. This might be more effective!

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[formflier]

Completely agree the invalidation issue is the most powerful/important one. 

I would focus on  the "Don't be invalidating" link (the first listed) and leave the others alone for now.  Sometimes the best thing to do is focus on not invalidating when a pwBPD is raging.

 

Validation is not going to get you far then, and possibly make things worse.  When he is calmer and more centered, you can then use tools like validation more effectively. 

Validation is (to me) more complex than invalidation.  There is a "thing" called the "validation target".  If you miss it (for instance you try to validate fear, yet they are actually angry), then you can certainly end up worse off than before you tried validation.

I'm also very interested in the conversations about difficult subjects that you can have when he is calm.

Best,

FF

 

[Isanni]

Hi BoyMom.
I am totally getting how those situations go down when your kid is out of control. You are on the edge - is someone going to get hurt, is everyone going to think my kid is crazy, we're crazy, when is this going to pass? It's also hard to imagine that the kid can't control himself - even just a little to not act so over the top. I think that's what makes validating so hard. Especially when they can keep it together at other times - when we're not in the picture for example. Validating is helpful in any situation - work, home, with friends, so it's a great, but really hard, skill to learn. It's a mindset change, building a new muscle (at least for me).

I wanted to share a book I gave my nephew - mind you, he is very willing to feel better and live a happier life. (Unlike my daughter who tore all her dbt and borderline books up and scattered the pages across her room.). He has gone through half of it and said it's made a huge difference for him - he has picked one or two techniques to keep practicing. His mom and dad can't believe the change in him too. It's called The Dialectical Behavior Therapy Skills Workbook, 2nd Edition. Practical DBT exercises for learning mindfulness, interpersonal effectiveness, emotion regulation and distress tolerance.  by McKay, Wood, Brantely.

I have no idea how to present this to your son, but if he does go through it, he's likely to get a little better. I had a convo with my nephew - he was telling me about some difficult relationships and I validated (must be so frustrating...) and asked if how he handled it (he was headstrong he was right) was working for him... it wasn't! Again validated - that's painful, must get you down... bla bla...
Then I followed up with an email sharing dbt info and then sent the book. Easier for an relative vs. a mom to do. Is there anyone who your son confides in and trusts?

[BoyMom]

I REALLY appreciate all of your ideas and suggestions. I think my only thing about "hey buddy", was that to him he'd see that as my being condescending to him and it would set him off worse, but I do get the intention behind it.
I'm about to go meet him now for a conversation. He doesn't want to have it in public because "he knows people that still live here" and that's a great fear of his, to see people that know him and be embarrassed, crippling fear actually. So I thought I'd begin the convo in our car with saying I'd like to establish some boundaries: that we remain calm, respectful, and not resort to name calling any of the people in the family. Then I'll invite him to add any boundaries he'd like to establish. Then I plan on asking him to tell me what happened the other night from his perspective and look for ways to validate his feelings along the way. Then I'll ask him how he thinks he could have responded differently so that it didn't escalate the way it did. That's about all the plan I have, I'm relying on God to be the pilot and me the copilot the rest of the way. Thanks to you all for your input, it's greatly helped, and I look forward to coming back later and telling you all how great it went!

[formflier]

So..."hey buddy" would likely be condescending.

How did he see "telling him to calm down"? 

Good luck on your conversation!

Best,

FF

[twocrazycats]

I REALLY appreciate all of your ideas and suggestions. I think my only thing about "hey buddy", was that to him he'd see that as my being condescending to him and it would set him off worse, but I do get the intention behind it.
I'm about to go meet him now for a conversation. He doesn't want to have it in public because "he knows people that still live here" and that's a great fear of his, to see people that know him and be embarrassed, crippling fear actually. So I thought I'd begin the convo in our car with saying I'd like to establish some boundaries: that we remain calm, respectful, and not resort to name calling any of the people in the family. Then I'll invite him to add any boundaries he'd like to establish. Then I plan on asking him to tell me what happened the other night from his perspective and look for ways to validate his feelings along the way. Then I'll ask him how he thinks he could have responded differently so that it didn't escalate the way it did. That's about all the plan I have, I'm relying on God to be the pilot and me the copilot the rest of the way. Thanks to you all for your input, it's greatly helped, and I look forward to coming back later and telling you all how great it went!

I think if the phrase "hey, Buddy" would be considered condescending by him, you could use a similar phrase to get his attention that you use in your family.

As far as the planned conversation: I know all our sons/daughters are different while sharing similarities, but that conversation would not go well at all with my daughter. First, there's too much there. With her, I would need to focus on one thing or the other: 1)how to remain calm or leave (sometimes my daughter just cannot remain calm), or 2) what is his perspective of what happened the other night?

Also, with my daughter, if this were a planned conversation, that in itself might doom it from the start. Either she would resent it, or she would hijack it and make it out to be all my fault. What I do (well, try to do) is casually mention one point at a time and try not to make a big deal of it.

Anyway, that's how my daughter is. You know your son best, and what works and what doesn't. I hope all goes well.
2CC

[PeaceMom]

Just reading Porr’s “Overcoming BPD” and her Balidation summary now. I’ll list it here:
-Listen w/full attention
-match voice tones
-listen to feelings, not content (ex the music, not words)
-validate first, then remind them of their goals and that they can do hard things
-cultivate compassion. Walk in their shoes
-remember NO ONE wants to feel the way someone w/BPD feels
-remind yourself this is someone you love, who did not choose to have this disability
-be flexible and improvise
-find the nugget of truth

This book is a must read

[PeaceMom]

* Validation! (Spell check! Ha)

[BoyMom]

Well it had its good moments and not so good moments. I began as I said, set boundaries to have a discussion with respect and without name calling and invited him to add any boundaries he wanted. He declined. The anger was still there, I could tell. I asked him to tell me his story, that I wanted to understand. I looked for ways to validate his feelings, and sometimes it worked, sometimes he perceived it as interrupting him and not listening to him. I told him I wanted to understand so I was trying to ask questions to help me understand and didn't mean to interrupt or shut him down, that it was just my effort to make sure I was hearing him. He wanted to talk about that damn basketball foul, but I listened patiently. Until he went out of the boundaries to say things like his brother was a pr!ck and make all or nothing statements like we always believed his brother because he was the baby and how we were validating him and babying him and he could keep getting away with anything because he's stupid and as parents we should be doing this or that because little brother (22) was the problem. I gently tried to pull the focus back and remind him of the name calling boundaries and how I was there to listen to him and his feelings. "What I hear you saying is that you feel as if we validate your brother's feelings but you feel we don't validate yours". "All my friends can't believe I have problems with my family because they say I'm such a nice guy and one friend who's the little brother says their family always take his side because he's the baby". Ack! So I agreed that I did believe the same. I remember in one of those articles something about when they contradict themselves to use the "I'm confused, you said A but then you said B". So when he did that a couple times (I don't know why you wanted to meet in public...I said, "But I asked you where you wanted to meet and you said here, so that's why we are meeting here". And "I said I'd clean up the drink and you lied and said I refused to clean it up". I said "yes, you did agree at first..." "And then I only refused to clean it up when you said you'd call the cops if I didn't calm down". "I'm confused, you said you didn't refuse but then you just said you did refuse to clean it up.") I saw those observations sink in. He did try to shift focus on everything we've done wrong as parents like taking away this or that from his brother and we needed to realize how stupid brother is, etc. I tried to pull focus again and say, "Remember we're not going to name call and my concern right now is you, I want to focus on you and listen to you and see what we can do to help you."
He's still in the righteous anger stage, albeit without tearing things up. I told him I could only speak for myself and that I felt I was walking on eggshells, that I loved our time we spend together, I love the conversations we have, that I want a deep and meaningful relationship with him and not a surface one where I had to worry about anything I said setting him off, holding my breath and living in a constant state of worry and fear. He didn't like the walking on eggshells part. That's stupid because he's not the problem, everyone else is. If everyone else would just realize that he's right there'd be no problems. We ended with me reminding him of the couple times before Christmas when he started to lose it and pulled it back and apologized for being rude, and reminding him I noticed and told him I was proud of him. I said that I could work on doing that more, that everyone needed tools to communicate better, that we could all think about what tools we could cultivate in ourselves. I said I loved him and wanted to spend more time with him and he said to let him know when his brother left town so he could come home and get his things. I don't know where we go from here but I know the repair of the brother relationship will have to come later, if and when he admits he needs help and wants it. Oh yeah, we did talk about brother blocking him on all things and grudgingly admitted that hurt. But he didn't accept any responsibility for that, that was all brother's fault. Sigh. Sorry this was so long. I'm sure I forgot some things that were said but that's the gist. Anyone know of anything I could give him to read that DOESN'T mention BPD? Because I know the first time he'd see that, in the trash bin it would go.

[BoyMom]

Oh yeah, the walk in their shoes part...He said a couple times for me to try and put myself in his position, he was right and they were wrong and nobody was listening to him. I said, "So you feel like you weren't being heard. Ok, so let's try you putting yourself in my shoes, do you understand that we have an obligation to protect the people in our home and to protect our home from destruction so in that moment we had to remove the threat? Because we didn't know if you would destroy anything in the home or possibly hurt someone?" He said he "planned" to remove himself and that that's what he did. Well, he did at first, only to go look up the foul online and then charge back out there to ramp it up and tell everyone they were wrong and he was right and tell them all they were posers and didn't know what they were talking about. And the thing is, when he's in that state, everyone in a 2 mile radius could have shown up and told him he was right and he would have just kept on and on and on insulting everyone - it's happened in the past, brother has said, "You're right" and he's raged on, "I know I am, but you're too stupid, you always do this and this and that's your problem and you think you're so smart..." And on and on it would have gone. So even acknowledging what's so important to him "you're right" to try and diffuse the anger has done absolutely nothing

[formflier]

Can you give examples of you attempts at validation?

Validation should be "like oil" that makes things work more smoothly.  So if you are attempting to validate and he is getting upset at being interrupted...well something's not working right there.

I got the vibe he would rather have just been listened to.

Best,

FF

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[twocrazycats]

I really don't think many people with BPD are capable of putting themselves in our shoes, unless they've been through some good quality therapy. I know my daughter isn't.

Also, if he rages while being told he's right, then the problem seems to be the rage itself rather than getting him to agree to anything. Maybe it might be more helpful to explore with him (when he's calm) some ways to prevent or calm the rage. If much of it goes back to his feelings of being treated worse than his brother, maybe just focus on validating those feelings? I think if my daughter kept bringing up similar feelings regarding her brother, I would try to validate those feelings. I would also explain to her that I love my two children equally and always have. And that if I did anything that implied I preferred one over the other, I apologize for that (because truly I might have -- it's almost impossible not to, but I would never intentionally do that). And finish by saying that I love her very much.

Just throwing some ideas out there.
2CC

[Swimmy55]

Hi BoyMom,
 I see positive movement regarding the conversation with your son.  Your intentions were heartfelt and he felt / knew that. 
You were present and open, two things necessary in the validation tool box link.  Please remember it is easy for us to get into the " I made a mistake and therefore everything will go downhill and it will be all my fault"mode with the BPD adult child.
As far as what phrasing to use "hey buddy" vs " name of son" vs "son" etc- it's all semantics in my humble opinion.  The important thing is you met with him and made an attempt to understand him/ talk to and listen to him.  Don't worry about not doing it perfectly.  You mentioned some things in the conversation didn't go as well.  No such thing as  a perfect convo, especially with BPD adult kids.  Don't be too hard on yourself.  Conversations with BPD go differently than those with other people.  1. It didn't end with him doing violence against you/ him/ property.  That is a success. 2. You will have future opportunity to talk to him more.  I would think for right now, maybe a day or so of healing and silence is needed for the both of you.  In the meantime and as you are able, read up on some of the topics under the tools drop down box like the don't be invalidating link as suggested previously- Ending conflict and SET . I still have to re read the topics, they didn't sink in for me at first.  Remember this is going to be a marathon with your BPD, not a sprint, give time time and yourself time. 

[BoyMom]

Thanks for the pep talk, I have to say I've had many more conversations that went worse/nowhere. In answer to how I tried to validate him, I asked the questions suggested in the articles, I tried very hard (and succeeded) in making sure none of the questions began with "why". I did the "I'm hearing you say --------, is that what you mean?" Like, "I hear you saying you felt ganged up on, is that what you were feeling?" Sometimes he'd answer in the affirmative, sometimes he'd say, "You're not listening, when you interrupt you make me forget my train of thought and now I forgot what I was going to say because you never listen to me." I apologized and told him I didn't mean to do that, but that I was there to listen to him and that I really wanted to understand his perspective, so I would try and hold my questions until he finished. But sometimes he doesn't "finish", he becomes repetitive and then launches into what everyone else is doing wrong that "makes" him react. (He once told me that when I patched holes in his wall that he made in a rage that what I should have done was apologize to him for making him punch holes in the wall in the first place and that since I made him punch the holes in the wall it was my responsibility to patch them up AND take responsibility for the holes...he'd been away at school for a few months with nobody living up there in his room so I patched the holes thinking I was taking away reminders of bad episodes in order to prevent future bad episodes during his visit). Also in an effort to validate, I looked at him attentively the whole time he talked and nodded to show I was listening.

[Isanni]

You are super. You have obviously taken his need for tailored communication to heart and are doing your best to give him what he needs.
We have to accept that we cannot change our kids ourselves. We learn the techniques, we offer them the best support, we teach our family members how best to communicate, but our kid is just not responsive. Not yet responsive. Not to us but maybe to others in time//
Keeping Boundaries & Continuing your learning and the best practice way of communicating - that's all you can do. The outside world will put pressure on him to seek help to change. If his perception is right - all non relatives love him and communicate with him well - great!  Our kids should be successfully flying off into the world without us. If he is delusional, it will be a painful lesson to him (one by one, people will grow tired of his ways) but you will be there as a sounding board only because you set boundaries (respect, financial independence, etc.) that preserve your self respect and keep him grounded. Validation does not mean accepting that he is right. or what he is saying is right.  It means only you acknowledge he feels a certain way. Thoughts create feelings that drive behaviors. If the thoughts are off, the person is doomed! You can surely accept he feels sad, frustrated, pissed, etc. when you wouldn't ……(bpd people get super pissed at things that might annoy us momentarily or not at all (someone cuts us off/slips in and out of a lane)... and they get pissed for a longer time and in a major way.)  He feels it. He really does so you accept that. The intense reaction you totally accept and know is PLEASE READty to feel. It sucks bad! But the yelling and name calling, you do not accept.
I really appreciate your holding him accountable. He's an employee, a student, a son in law, a friend and the world needs someone to validate him but hold him accountable.

[BoyMom]

You're right, and I did tell him that I loved him and wanted him around, wanted to spend time with him, have a real relationship and not a surface one where we had to live in fear of setting him off, but that his dad and I could not and would not accept the screaming and name calling and doing damage to our home. Sure, he didn't punch a hole in the wall THIS TIME or break anything THIS TIME (and maybe he saw that as progress) but I tried to explain that past incidents made me fear how far his anger would proceed THIS TIME until he DID do something like that, and that's why we had to remove him during the anger. He acknowledges the fact that he picked up the drink and slammed it onto the ground, but "it only had a little bit of liquid in it". So that's how he minimized his action. It took everything I had not to roll my eyes into the back of my skull but I maintained eye contact and tried to explain that in the past his anger had escalated and I couldn't afford to let it escalate again. And when he's raging, he goes as far below the belt as he can. I anticipate him saying something along the lines of the whole family thinking he's crazy and I'm trying to read up on a better way of saying, "Can you blame them? You had a full audience of at least half the family here". But I can't control what those family members tell other family members, I'm at a point where it's almost as hard to hide it from everyone than it is to get a grip on the immediate problem. I think at one point I did tell him that we can't control anyone's reaction but our own and I offered ways that I could do better and suggested "we all" work on that.

[Harri]

Hi BoyMom.

I think the conversation went very well.  You did good.   

It took everything I had not to roll my eyes into the back of my skull

As a fellow eye roller I am impressed!  Have you ever rolled your eyes so hard it actually hurt?    <----  not laughing at your situation, your line here made me laugh when I read it. 

But I can't control what those family members tell other family members, I'm at a point where it's almost as hard to hide it from everyone than it is to get a grip on the immediate problem. I think at one point I did tell him that we can't control anyone's reaction but our own and I offered ways that I could do better and suggested "we all" work on that.

Again, well done.  We want to protect our loved ones for sure, but it is not always possible and sometimes I don't think it serves them or us well.   Letting them see and deal with the consequences of their behavior can help open their eyes.  Of course, being there to help him learn better ways is also important.  If we can't help, then maybe suggesting DBT skills  might help.  I am not sure, but I think there are workbooks on DBT skills that do not specifically mention BPD.  Is that something you want to look into?  I do know that many pwBPD do not have the skills to learn these skills without some kind of support so following through with him where you can is important and I like that you used the word 'we'.   Of course, he has to want to do the work too. 

[Maggie22]

I can't tell you how much this conversation has helped me.  I have an almost 17-year-old son whom I suspect is suffering from this disorder.  Your son's behavior is almost identical to my son's.  I have an appointment with a counselor who specializes in personality disorders next week, I am still praying that it's not BPD, although there is a history of this behavior in his dad, grandma, and great-grandfather.  I was told, based on the family stories, that it sounds like BPD, but no one has been officially diagnosed.  I have been dissecting this site and am getting so much helpful information.  I also loved what Isanni said.  Thank you so much for sharing your story BoyMom, I am praying for strength and insight for all of us.