Bumping into BPD ex, rebound, coffeedate, block. Also: tips on posting?

[Adrian26]

Hi all,

I am new to this forum, but posted twice and did not receive any reaction, these stories were quite long so maybe I should keep it shorter. Any other tips on posting here?

To keep it short: I bumped into a BPD ex with whom I've been in  a rollercoaster with for 6 months. Mostly she would suddenly dump me, firstly after I expressed uncertainty to commit (although she often had that same uncertainty), after losing trust after a fight, or when I called her out on disrespectful behaviour yet she blamed me. Last breakup came from my side, out of exhaustion. She had come back to me with huge claims of love, yet seemed to again doubt our romance when I pressed her to talk about the unaddressed reasons for our previous breakups. She didn't want to reconcile or amically close things off. Didn't see her in months.

When I met her at a reunion she was visibly emotional: avoiding my gaze, her legs shaking when we finally talked. We relaxed a bit over drinks and she started staying close to me, seeking contact. Things erupted when she asked about my recent sex life: I had a ONS the night before. Important note: she was the one with many hookups in between breaks, this was about my first and reluctantly as well.
She stormed away in tears. I found her in a deep emotional mess where she talked about all her pain and fears of being not good enough, due to past traumas and neglect. How that was the reason she was hurt after our breakup and could not handle facing me to reconcile or for closure. How her need for validation made her have many hookups after our breaks, admitting that her sadness about mine made her a hypocrite.

We slept together, and it was tender. She said her original plan for the night had been to cut herself. Anyway, her vulnerability and pain made me understand her previous actions that seemed quite manipulative and selfish, like overt attempts to control the ebb and flow of our relationship, dishonesty, not facing her own faults but projecting them on me. Instead of anger I felt pity and understanding.
The next day we left with kisses. She did not consider another attempt together good since for a relationship cause werent a good fit, since i didn't make her feel good about herself. Fine by me, I was just happy to understand her.

She unblocked me on whatsapp, sent some dinner pics. I replied and afterwards she blocked me. I waited two days until calling her, number was blocked. She unblocked me soon after. I sent her a voicenote offering my understanding to her, and that instead of being angry I for once wanted to accept that her breaking off contact was probably what she needed and not out of malicious intent. I wanted to break our previous cycles of push pull, accusations and hurt.
As such, I offered to just have a few coffees over the next months. To maybe stabilize our contact. She's also graduating so it's an uncertain time for her, no need to rush things.
She immediately asked if I was available the next day. I agreed. She called me at 3.40AM to say she was a bit anxious about what I expected from that coffee. To calm her fears I thought, I restated my neutral intents. That the time was not ripe for another romance for us, also because we had just come out of an intense rollercoaster ride of 6 months.

The morning after she cancelled the coffeedate by voicenote, saying we both knew it would never just be a coffee with us due to our magnetism, and she couldn allow that kind of unrest in her life right now. Then she blocked me. I called her on landline, which wasn't blocked, and explained my acceptance and understanding. However, I also stated I believed the situation had changed, and that for me I had gained many new insights into her past and her pain, and what motivates her. I harboured no more anger about past events but understanding. She said she would think about it. I hung up with an I love you, being for once as validating as I could instead of angry.

Two days and I'm still blocked. At this point I am considering whether I am doing the right thing for both her and myself. What do you guys think?
I want to break our destructive cycle with kindness and understanding, finally penetrating those vicious defense mechanisms of hers, and not being provoked when she seems to push me away (I learned that from this website!). Would this be an effective mechanism, to just wait? I've been restraining myself from contacting her, to give her space. At the same time, the uncertainty is tormenting, and the more time passes since our tender, vulnerable moment, the more memories of previous manipulation come to mind and I feel trapped in a game again- whether she is playing it consciously or not. It's quite taxing. I hope you can help!

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[PeteWitsend]

...

When I met her at a reunion she was visibly emotional: avoiding my gaze, her legs shaking when we finally talked. We relaxed a bit over drinks and she started staying close to me, seeking contact. Things erupted when she asked about my recent sex life: I had a ONS the night before. Important note: she was the one with many hookups in between breaks, this was about my first and reluctantly as well.
She stormed away in tears. I found her in a deep emotional mess where she talked about all her pain and fears of being not good enough, due to past traumas and neglect.
...

I read this part, and I thought of a professional fisherman (fisherperson?), i.e. HER, easily landing the fish she wanted.

she knew exactly the time, place, and bait to use... total pro.  She's done this many times.

If you just want to sleep with her, you can... I'm not judging.  just be careful! use protection.  Do Not Get Her Pregnant.

If you're actually looking for a committed relationship between two mentally stable & healthy adults, that includes mutual respect and support for eachother, you're looking in the wrong place.  

It's not going to change or get better no matter what sweet things you tell her or how much commitment you show her.  

[PeteWitsend]

other tips, b/c it sounds like you could use them...

1) she def seems to have some strong BPD traits. If you are serious about pursuing this, get the book "Stop Walking On Eggshells" and read that to understand the lifelong hell you're committing yourself to.

2) as far as posting here, I know it's tough to keep posts concise, b/c there is so much to vent about in these types of crazy relationships, but try to stick to your specific questions, or make those clear at least, while cutting out unnecessary background, as much as you may want to vent about it.

3) Not sure your age, but you may be tempted to dismiss some of her behavior as "women being crazy" or say "Well so-and-so said ALL couples fight, so this is probably to be expected"... but it's not.  What you've described here is clearly abusive push-and-pull behavior from her, and if you find it upsetting and difficult to cope with, you're probably better off not pursuing a relationship with her.  it's not going to change. 

you may learn to validate and use verbal and emotional tools to reduce conflict with her (although trust me, employing those can be exhausting in and of itself) but the underlying causes of her behavior, and thus her tendencies toward conflict and emotional instability, will always be there.

[itsmeSnap]

we both knew it would never just be a coffee with us due to our magnetism, and she couldn allow that kind of unrest in her life right now.

To calm her fears I thought, I restated my neutral intents. That the time was not ripe for another romance for us

the more memories of previous manipulation come to mind and I feel trapped in a game again- whether she is playing it consciously or not.

is this really "just coffee" for you? She might have actually seen that ambivalence in you too and that's why she's reluctant to take your word at face value.

Heck, I feel it and it's making me tense loosen up chief, enjoy your time together for what it is, enjoy your time apart for what it is too!

Be honest with yourself, lose your own fears and do what feels right.

When I stopped pursuing my ex she actually started seeking me out, even after slight falling outs, and also she stopped causing drama (she's still lowkey mean from time to time, but I see it for what it is, her feeling vulnerable and trying to mask it by looking tough. I tease her about her inner cuteness when she does, she gets back to her happier self) which was unlike her when she was full on bpd mode while we dated.

The tension is what breaks things apart for us. No games, no need to be too upfront and "wear your heart on your sleeve" either, have fun and let go! You're attractive to her, she's come back before so there's a good chance she'll try again.

[once removed]

hi Adrian26,

first of all, im sorry your other two posts didnt get attention. it may not be you...during (and after) the holidays, things can be slow.

youve shared some good advice with other members here. thats a great way to build your support system as things pick back up.

finally penetrating those vicious defense mechanisms of hers

generally speaking, dont push too hard, too fast.

people with bpd traits are terrified of being vulnerable. they balk at people trying to penetrate their defense mechanisms.

and chasing or over pursuing, while it can feel like it proves our love, can push them away, especially if they are running.

shes in running mode right now. space is good. i know, in a time when it feels like all you want to do is cry or reach out, how compelling the option seems to reach out. heeding her need for space sends the best of all messages, right now.

[Adrian26]

Dear all,

Thank you for your kind replies.
Some important notes I forgot to add: my ex is fully diagnosed BPD + autism, and has been in therapy for about 2 years I believe. She is also on medication, and superficially she's 'open' and even joking about her two labels. Also, I read both 'Walking on Eggshells' and 'The Siren's Dance'. I believe my ex to be more of the silent BPD type because she rarely if ever rages- instead she builds up criticism, splits, is promiscuous, automutilates and engages in substance abuse.
It was her very openness about her labels and therapy, and the strong mask that she presented to the outside world, that falsely made me believe we could address aspects of her behaviour that seemed 'unexpected' or disproportional to me. Sometimes out of desperation I looked online or in books, and could recognize her BPD behaviour. But she hated that confrontation with her labels because it made her feel inferior and different.

Also: we used to date seriously for 6 months, with the inevitable push-pull breaks along the way. So it's not just sex that I am after. Both the two of us and our mutual friends know: when they are in a room together it ends up in sex (and probably drama).

About the coffee: naturally I desired it to evolve into something else again. But my foremost priority was the connection. The previous months I could barely recognize her: most of my struggle was trying to understand wtf she was doing. Before I would drive myself crazy thinking if she was with someone else. And at this point we've both been with others. I absolutely did not want to start dating at that time, because I did not want to repeat the same draining pattern we had the months before: reconcile too hastily, intense lovemaking/time spending together, never resolving previous issues, only for them to built up and explode, breaking off contact, blaming, reconciling too hastily, etc...

And indeed, in previous months I tried to contact her a lot, also because she would suddenly break contact and leave me without closure. And then she would contact me suddenly in the middle of the night, only to disappear again after 1 drunken phonecall.
This time I validated her running away, and said I understood. I made no more attempts to contact her. So here is the update:

She called me 2 days ago, saying that she thought about the proposition of a coffee sometimes. She said that, while the attraction naturally remains, she needs someone who will not make her feel bad about herself. As such she refused any further contact and appealed to her right to 'cut people out of her life who make her feel bad about herself'.
Again, I validated her opinion. I repeated my beliefs that a lot of things had changed. Naturally I have been very critical about her behaviour when she hurt me: provoking, breaking off contact, lies, very quick rebounds. Now that I had seen her at her most vulnerable and with her traumas open to see, it all made sense and I harboured no more anger. That doesn't mean I see us having a future together: maybe we are not the right fit. But at least we could build from something with full understanding of one another- something we have never tried doing. Always trying to make our masks cope with one another, never seeing the bigger picture or motivations of the other. Then youre just moving around in circles.

But please advise me on this part:
While I validated her feelings because I know we must both feel comfortable together, it feels like 'magical thinking' that her solution to feeling bad about herself is cutting people out of her life who trigger those feelings. She suffers from immense bullying/abuse trauma, and as such has low self worth. This triggers promiscuity, breaking off contact, not wanting to resolve issues, seemingly manipulative actions and lies. If we keep in mind the reason behind all this (immense pain) it is understandable. However, she seems to have convinced herself that somewhere out there a white knight will accept all this behaviour. As such, she is fully blaming her ex partner, at least verballly, for the hurt that was done. Such little reflection... That part made me more convinced of her still being extremely sensitive to any sort of criticism, as is part of BPD of course. Or maybe she is just freakishly scared now that she has opened up and was vulnerable, I do not know.

In any case, I have not sought out contact since. I intend to write her a letter in a few weeks highlighting my views on our relationship, and offering advice: I think her being vulnerable is much easier and understandable than playing the powerful lady who is in control. When the latter does something hurtful, it must be malicious. When the previous one does something hurtful, it is very understandable and can actually invoke a lot and a lot of sympathy.
I expect her to have a rebound soon, and probably contact me again at some time. As is her cycle. At this point I'm in a little bit of finalized grieving about letting go a person who I believe at this point has too much baggage that no effort of mine could ever compensate for.

My final thought is, as Once Removed stated, that she is very afraid of her having shown her deep trauma's and that every connection with that, including me and my attempted understanding, is scaring her away. Any other advice, despite giving her freedom to run? A part of me even thinks that she wants me to chase, to prove that she is loveable and undo our previous negative interactions.

[once removed]

it feels like 'magical thinking' that her solution to feeling bad about herself is cutting people out of her life who trigger those feelings.

this attitude is a popular one these days. it was one of the biggest recent new years resolutions.

no, i dont recommend it. its not a mature way of coping with lifes stresses, no matter how in vogue it is.

She said that, while the attraction naturally remains, she needs someone who will not make her feel bad about herself.

that the attraction remains is good news. with most women, once thats gone, its gone. if its there, theres always a chance.

the problem is, a lot of us men tend to do all of the wrong things (over pursue, chase) to try and build/rescue that attraction when the single best thing we can do, as hard as it can be, is to sit back, be cool, and wait (dont just "wait". live your best life).

I intend to write her a letter in a few weeks highlighting my views on our relationship, and offering advice

i really encourage you not to go this route. i think it would take all of the things shes apprehensive about (judgment, feeling inferior), regarding the relationship, and regarding you, and make them worse.

at a certain point, you are positioning yourself in the role of more of a therapist to her than a romantic partner. women will balk at this. its heavy.

she wants, more than anything, not for you to prove your understanding of her struggles, but to prove you can be emotionally confident when faced with them. she is feeling the heaviness of all of that, and thats why shes balking at getting together for coffee.

so the best message you can really send to say you get it, and understand it, is to not repeat it.

that will take some time, and some subtlety (not grand gestures or long letters) to get across. but if its something you are able to do, consistently, it will catch her off guard, and be mighty attractive.

[PeteWitsend]

...
But please advise me on this part:
While I validated her feelings because I know we must both feel comfortable together, it feels like 'magical thinking' that her solution to feeling bad about herself is cutting people out of her life who trigger those feelings.

Sure, maybe.  but PWBPD like magical thinking.  and they throw out pop-psychobabble buzzwords all the time.  so if "cutting people out" wasn't the solution she was clinging to, something else would be.  You're focusing too much on a literal reading of the words of a disordered person. 

And the part "I know we must both feel comfortable together..."

How do you know that?  You're not only taking the words of a disordered person at their literal meaning, but you're projecting your own feelings on to another's mind, which you can never truly know.  This is not helpful to EITHER of you.

However, she seems to have convinced herself that somewhere out there a white knight will accept all this behaviour.
...

This is not surprising... it's a comforting thought for her - for a lot of people - and everyone likes comforting thoughts. 

But neither you, nor any other guys she meets will be that white knight; she needs years of in depth behavioral therapy to overcome the cutting, the promiscuous sexual behavior, and her anxiety and poor self image. 

Don't delude yourself into thinking you can provide those things, or that by giving her a hug or saying some kind words, she'll see the light and seek therapy on her own. 

You tried.  Several times, it sounds like.  further attempts will only drive YOU crazy...

[PeteWitsend]

...A part of me even thinks that she wants me to chase, to prove that she is loveable and undo our previous negative interactions.

Last point.  You're right; she wants you to chase her.  but when you chase her and get too close, you trigger her fears of enmeshment, and when you stop or pull back after she lashes out over those fears, you trigger her fears of abandonment.

You can't win here, you can only drive yourself nuts. 

[Adrian26]

Thank you for your replies gentlemen.

this attitude is a popular one these days. it was one of the biggest recent new years resolutions.
no, i dont recommend it. its not a mature way of coping with lifes stresses, no matter how in vogue it is.
that the attraction remains is good news. with most women, once thats gone, its gone. if its there, theres always a chance.

Its naturally okay of course if a person is regularly abusive, but in this case I think it shows an incapacity to face one's own mistakes and contributions to fights and a failed relationship.
The remaining attraction is also what makes it so difficult. We both know the attraction is there: it has never been gone throughout fights and misunderstandings and distance. And thats what pains me: there is still so much potential for happiness. In the first phase of our dating, I was unsure about my identity and sexuality. I warned her about that. She herself is bisexual and tried to embrace her feelings for me despite the uncertainty- in hindsight maybe she even felt comfortable with the prospect, despite the struggles it brought, since it also kept her fear of intimacy at bay. We broke up in summer when I wanted to experiment. She couldn't handle the immense pain of me being with another person. This was quite some hypocrisy as I had 'allowed' her to have a girlfriend/PLEASE READbuddy on the side while I was monogamous, and she even encouraged me to experiment at first.
She was lovely and understanding, yet communicated her need to terminate contact until I could provide more certainty. This was painful. Soon after, probably due to my excessive chasing (since I was very heartbroken), she grew cold, denied her feelings for me, had a 3some, and entered into a quick rebound. Afterwards she would come back 'just for sex', but when I couldnt handle being just a dildo anymore instead of our previous intimacy and threatened to break things off, she contacted my ex behind my back and laid all the criticism on me. She said had 'so much feelings for me', and i was dumbstruck- she had insisted that it was only sex with an ex, nothing more. She then terminated contact again. This push-pull went on for months, with her eventually admitting the rebound was only a distraction out of denial of her feelings for me.
In hindsight I realize this was her maladaptive and poorly communicated way of coping with her intense feelings plus the vulnerability and fears it brought.

At this point my identity questions have been resolved. A lot of feelings between us still remain. My anger about her actions is gone since I finally understand her diagnosis and mostly her trauma and pain. To me, it seems the time is as ripe as ever to finally love one another without obstacles and uncertainties- and yet she breaks off contact because I give her a bad feeling about herself due to my previous criticisms. How can I show her that things have changed, when she blocks me on everything and denies a coffeedate?

the problem is, a lot of us men tend to do all of the wrong things (over pursue, chase) to try and build/rescue that attraction when the single best thing we can do, as hard as it can be, is to sit back, be cool, and wait (dont just "wait". live your best life).
i really encourage you not to go this route. i think it would take all of the things shes apprehensive about (judgment, feeling inferior), regarding the relationship, and regarding you, and make them worse.
she wants, more than anything, not for you to prove your understanding of her struggles, but to prove you can be emotionally confident when faced with them. she is feeling the heaviness of all of that, and thats why shes balking at getting together for coffee.
that will take some time, and some subtlety (not grand gestures ``or long letters) to get across. but if its something you are able to do, consistently, it will catch her off guard, and be mighty attractive.

You are right, and I did not want to come off as a therapist, more as someone who's been with her and who actually loves her including all the vulnerabilities. But probably in a letter it might come off as extra patronizing.

The problem is: how do I show this empathy? I do not know whether I could handle all her struggles, but at least with me now understanding where it comes from it makes it easier. I don't want to lecture her or focus on her BPD label, it must be a terrible feeling and indeed would enhance the feeling of inferiority. But at this point there is no opportunity at all to show subtlety or emotional confidence. There is nothing I can get across, apart from just accepting that the ball is in her court.
She has blocked me on all social media, whatsapp, email, phone. I have not tried to chase her since I think that will only do harm. I completely agree with sitting back and waiting, or at least, living my own life- I have dates lined up but it does not feel the same. Its just that we've only had one night in which she bared her traumas, and that changed everything. All the previous months of weird behaviour I understood suddenly. It changed my entire perspective of her. But that one night was not enough to get that message across to her.

I want to give her space, and so far I've done so. When she declined any more contact, I validated her decision, professed my understanding and hung up in a kindly manner. But the no contact at all makes 'subtlety' very difficult. I have not had time to show my empathy for her, or that I can now feel more powerful in dealing with her emotions and making her feel safe. She is still stuck in all the pushpull fights of last months and the criticism we gave each other then, how deeply we misunderstood each other, how angry I was at her. One night changed my entire perspective, but probably one night of professed understanding, no more anger, and actual love for the whole person she showed probably does not take away all the hurt that was triggered in her the previous months.
How to go from here? Simply wait and trust that the message in that small time window came across? Try to leave a voicemail in a few weeks with just 'hey, hope youre doing fine?' (since ill be redirected to voicemail immediately anyway). Summary: I have no way of showing in deeds or words the validation of her feelings that she needed for so long but I could not give since I did not understand at all why she was acting so maliciously. I cannot show her she might be safer with me than she thought. I have no trouble with waiting and taking time if I know things are good, but I feel like she is still stuck in the fear of the pain and distrust of the push-pull time. I am not sure if merely waiting only leaves her simmering in those bad memories longer, or whether I should trust that she slowly might regain confidence on her own.

Was I wrong to describe the coffeedate as an attempt to normalize our interaction again, and cherish our reconnection? Should I have made it more clear that I did indeed have a lot of romantic feelings for her still? I thought that would only have scared her off.

[Adrian26]

so if "cutting people out" wasn't the solution she was clinging to, something else would be.  You're focusing too much on a literal reading of the words of a disordered person.

I know of the stereotype of BPD, and even if it might sound naive I think your image of my ex needs some nuance- in that sense that she is fully aware and open of her BPD, and on medication and in therapy, but still very much coming to full terms with the consequences BPD has on her daily life and what that does to her self image.
However, a part of me thinks youre right. Before, it was my sexuality questions that made her distance herself. She would always initiate commitment when she felt ready- and funnily enough indeed it seems there is always another reason for us to not communicate properly, not end up together. Like at this point, my uncertainty has been solved but she clings to me giving her a bad feeling about herself as a reason not to be together. This might be a very fair reason and she just needs to process past events still, or its just another way to avoid intimacy as there always will be one.

And the part "I know we must both feel comfortable together..."

I did not mean we feel comfortable together now, I meant that in a relationship you should be comfortable together.

But neither you, nor any other guys she meets will be that white knight; she needs years of in depth behavioral therapy to overcome the cutting, the promiscuous sexual behavior, and her anxiety and poor self image.

I have to emphasize, she is in therapy. For a few years now, diagnosed and on medication. However, I do have my questions about its quality as she calls it 'coaching', and what she communicated to me it feels like it focuses fully on validating her feelings and self-image. I do not know whether she shares everything with her coach, but I get the feeling her coaching even condones behaviour such as suddenly breaking off contact, contacting my ex behind my back. Or expressing understanding that she kissed another guy in our early stages when she was on a date with me- instead of telling her: hey, while I understand that you do this is as coping or sabotage because of your inner pain, it helps your self-image incredibly if you would learn to then apologize to your partner, validate his hurt, and accept that apologizing for a mistake does not make you a bad person. As such, the focus on self-validation seems to enhance some of her self-saving destructive mechanisms, instead of addressing how she can implement her fears and vulnerability into less destructive behaviour.

Last point.  You're right; she wants you to chase her.  but when you chase her and get too close, you trigger her fears of enmeshment, and when you stop or pull back after she lashes out over those fears, you trigger her fears of abandonment.
You can't win here, you can only drive yourself nuts.

I feel like I would not give my ex enough credit to stamp this stereotype BPD mechanism on her, since she has made immense progress on intimacy and opening up. But deep down I fear this mechanism is still much more at play than I'd like to admit.

Thank you for your answers. Any idea on how to progress? Your advice seems to be 'leave it be, she can't be saved', while I try to recognize her slow recovery and have a more positive outlook.

[PeteWitsend]

...
I have to emphasize, she is in therapy. For a few years now, diagnosed and on medication. However, I do have my questions about its quality as she calls it 'coaching', and what she communicated to me it feels like it focuses fully on validating her feelings and self-image. ...

So - and this is from my own experience - my XW would "forum shop" until she found a counselor who did nothing but validate her worldview: who was to blame for her problems and behaviors (it was never her!), why she couldn't help herself, and why she shouldn't have to change her behavior, and why I needed to be "better." 

When we attended MC with a therapist who called her out for screaming at me during the therapy sessions, not having any objective complaints, and only giving vague, impossible to fill demands like "Always put me first" or "love me enough" as solutions for us to move forward with... she actually started to scream at the therapist (!), and refused to go back. 

So, yeah, pwBPD may be in therapy, but it may be only useless at best, or actively reinforcing & enabling their behavior at worst. 

Thank you for your answers. Any idea on how to progress? Your advice seems to be 'leave it be, she can't be saved', while I try to recognize her slow recovery and have a more positive outlook.

You said above that you find all this draining or exhausting or something like that. 

pwBPD may panic and chase you when they feel alone, and "Plan B" falls through, but you can never really know they truly have changed; they will do and say whatever they feel they have to, in order to convince you to stay with them, try again, forgive them, etc.  I think  - for me - that's what it came down to.  We had nearly gotten divorced a couple times, and "the nuclear option" became something she'd casually toss out in arguments (e.g. "You don't like it?  Divorce me then.")  In all cases, when I would start to walk out the proverbial door, she would rush to reassure me she was sorry, she recognized she was wrong, and would work on herself.

That would typically last a week, before she figured out how to re-write the story to "convince" me I was wrong, I started it. I overreacted, etc.  There's simply no way to trust anything they say, so... yeah. 

[PeteWitsend]

Another thought:

when I was dating my XW, I was immature in that I excused a lot of her behavior for a variety of reasons, some of which were just dumb luck for her (as I said above, we're in the same profession, and so some of her complaints and struggles aligned with my early career struggles).  

Had it been different, I like to think I would've just moved on, and recognized while we had some good times, I truly didn't feel comfortable with her, and would always worry she was going to run off, cheat, or ditch me as soon as she found someone better, because early in our relationship, she did some things toward those ends, though as far as I am aware, she never physically cheated on me.  But regardless, all that is a HUGE issue, and a basic sign of incompatibility.  

I think on some level, she knew that; she read my non-verbal actions and cues.  so instead of trying to make up for her past actions and reassure me that she was committed, she made excuses for her actions and blamed me.

This is not "normal" and this is not the kind of person you can build a healthy, mature, committed relationship with.  Maybe you're young; maybe you haven't had a lot of relationship experience.  Maybe you're also not ready for one?  Maybe you haven't had one and seen how it can & should be with a stable partner?  I dated and had a lot of relationships with women I really wasn't that attracted to, and always looking for a way out; my XW was the first woman I dated where I felt no desire to look elsewhere; she was attractive and that fed my ego.  BUT that was because I was emotionally immature in a lot of ways, and that left me unable to recognize the situation for what it was.  

Short summary:
If I had a time machine and I could've gone back to 32-year-old me, and said "Why would you commit to this?" ... 32-year-old me might've said "She's really attractive, and we have great sex" and Current Me would wonder how I could have ever been that stupid and shallow.  Long term relationships are about so much more than that, and if you're just looking for arm candy or sex, there are much healthier ways to go about it than trying to be a therapist & caretaker for a disordered person that is too wrapped up in their own emotional chaos to actually care for you back...

[Adrian26]

Thanks once again for sharing your experience Pete.

@OnceRemoved, could you maybe also shed your light on how to proceed? You suggested showing emotional confidence and subtlety, but with total absence of contact that is hard to do. I also wonder what your opinion is on my ex's therapy and my own probable naive optimism about that.

@Pete, I fear you may be more right than I wanted to see.

My ex has been open about her diagnosis and therapy. But recently I started reading our old messages again from when we were still just friends, when she shared her therapy documents with me. It indeed confirmed her 'bombastic' mask, extravert personality and coping mechanisms that effectively hide her very vulnerable core and pain.

It also showed no sign of DBT therapy. Her core goals were to help her find balance between ambition and relaxation, recognizing situations that generate 'unrest', and make her feel good enough to make choices that make her happy. To help/learn her to trust herself and her own decisions. To take away a drive to prove herself and instead live a life out of intrinsic motivations and passion. Agency. And: most of the therapy involves cognitive behavioural insights into her life history and what made her this way.
... Essentially what I feared, that while it may very well help her follow her heart and be more assertive, it also validates behaviours that make her feel good, no matter how destructive these are. Its completely self-focused. And for a longer period I have had the feeling that she isn't honest with her family, friends and roommates about things that happened between us, and I fear thats the same case with her 'therapist'/coach.

As for myself and my age and experience: I'm 26, and I've been in a very stable 3 year relationship, a rocky 1 year relationship, and this one. Flings and longer periodes of dating I do not count.
However, the 3 year relationship was when I was younger. I came out of a divorced family, where a lot of ugliness was involved. Actually reading into BPD and what kind of guys tend to remain stuck in these destructive relationships helped me understand my own background way better. My parents actively hated each other. It turns out there has been a lot of parentification and parental alienation going around, with my mom making me responsible for her happiness. I grew up learning to repress my own feelings and needs, and sacrifice them for the happiness of my parents. My mom also spoke hatefully about my dad and it alienated me from him, until recent years. I emerged from puberty with severe emotional repression and lack of identity. I even had a lot of sexuality questions, which in therapy have turned out to be related to the immense loathing of men that was instilled during the divorce. So while I had a 3 year relationship until my 20th, I was rarely if ever completely myself these days. Its only in recent years as a student that I actively seek to find my own path since I was quite lost- and finding myself required therapy and a lot of opening up. Being vulnerable. My past two relationships were the first in which I was vulnerable and tried to show myself. But even during those relationships I showed so called 'narcissistic defense mechanisms', to keep emotions and vulnerability at arms length. Funny how BPD's and NPD's always seek each other out. In a way, especially with my BPD-ex, I repeated behaviour from my teenage times: considering my own needs not a priority and seeking out a relationship where I could help and had to sacrifice. Quite confronting.

[PeteWitsend]

It sounds like you're still growing as a person and figuring out what you want and what you're comfortable with.  And also what's out there.  

And all that's fine; I used to compare myself to other people who were in stable relationships or had progressed further in their careers, etc. and realized that was a bad thing to do.  It either lead to me feeling bad about myself, or rushing bad decisions to "keep up."

Everyone develops at their own pace though; and some people that seem to develop faster skip things and pay for them later.  

And if you came from a divorced couple (I did too) it sometimes takes longer to appreciate and understand what matters, and what a good relationship looks like.

In my own case, it took me choosing a bad partner for marriage and having kids, and seeing how other healthy marriages looked compared to mine, to really understand all that.  I love my kids dearly and being a responsible dad keeps me honest now, but my marriage was a nightmare, and I'm still recovering from it in ways I don't even know.

But it started similarly to what you've described at the end of your post: seeking a relationship where you had to be the one sacrifice themselves in order to make it work.

your sacrifice will go unrecognized, and certainly unrewarded.  if anything, I felt like I was punished for making the sacrifice.  Giving them what they claim to want is never the answer, and while right now you might still feel you have the emotional (and financial) reserves to give more, and sacrifice more of yourself for the relationship, once you're totally committed, it starts to feel a lot different.  And when you realize your "reward" is a lifetime of further sacrifice, and neglecting your own needs and your own dreams, it's a little like feeling imprisoned for life.  No chance of parole.

In my own case, it definitely had a detrimental effect on my sanity, my bank account, and my career.  

[Adrian26]

Thank you for your honest advice Pete. And also for sharing a very vulnerable backstory. Ill take it to hart.

Yes I am still very much finding out who I am and what I want. Im in med school but already 'quite old' compared to fellow students. Because of my identity questions i also completed a 2nd bachelor- I just couldnt choose. At this point Im taking a few months off before my residencies to find out what I really like/and/or prefer.

Its hard coming to terms with ones background because it kinda feels like scapegoating the past or the parents and not taking responsibility ourselves.

A small update on my ex: she had blocked me on LinkedIn months ago, as she did with all social media. She just graduated, and turns out she unblocked me on LinkedIn two days ago, the moment she uploaded her graduation picture. I sent her congratulations and the best of luck (and fun) in her next steps. She replied with a preformatted LinkedIn message 'Thank you Adrian'.

I didnt reply further. I immediately recognized the unrest that her ambigue contact brought me. Naturally i still have longing for her, and apparently Im still in her thoughts as well, but the vagueness and mixed signals are exhausting.

[Adrian26]

Hi all,

Small update on this matter.
There would be a meetup this week of our mutual group of friends. My BPD-ex has still blocked me everywhere. She noticed from the group whatsapp that I intended to join the meetup. She messaged me on LinkedIn to verify that, and noted she thought us seeing each other, even in group atmosphere, would lead to trouble. I offered, as a sign of understanding, to stay away for once.

I also stated that I believed there was only trouble because we never, ever, talked things out. Ever since our last breakup, initiated by me, we never sat down to discuss our problems. And before that, she never wanted to talk about our problems either- they just increased and piled up because of this. Recently we had this night together again, during which she was very open and vulnerable and 'I love yous' and 'I missed you's' were exchanged. I thought there was still a lot to go for. I repeated that I did not harbor any anger or blame anymore, I was fine seeing each other.

She replied in a very harsh way that regardless of the meetup we were very much done. She had 'thought about our interaction to great lengths'. She saw no more potential for us, nor considered us a good match. She believed I loved her but she did not need 'that kind of love'. Despite her admitting 3 weeks ago that she missed me, and unblocking me on LinkedIn this week to show she graduated, she turned very hateful. Words like 'You really dont want to know what I really think of you'. She put an effort into making it very clear that we are done, in a cold and cruel way. 'I made my decision. Do you understand that? You got to live with it'.

Obviously at this point there is nothing left to do. Its also not about winning her back that I am writing this. I just needed to vent my confusion and sadness about the way shes handling this. I dont understand her. She has blocked me everywhere again. We had some troubles in the past but they finally made sense all of that could be worked out in my view. I have been nothing but understanding and respectful to her since our last meetup, which was a very romantic night. Yet while I think we were on the best spot ever to fix things, shes adamant that she does not want me in her life- despite missing me and despite us having feelings. It feels like she is running away from the prospect, and maybe even has split me black. Her arguments made little sense either, some of them were untruthful even. Saying that I yelled at her when I was just annoyed, blaming me for still calling her when she blocked me- I called her once just to ask for an explanation since she suddenly cancelled a coffeedate that she was at first excited for. After that she thought about things for a week and then called me to decline, something I took well and respectfully. It doesn't make sense to suddenly be mad about one phone call weeks ago, especially since she has done much worse (sudden blocking, then showing up at my doorstep). She also didn't give any specific reason why we weren't compatible in her eyes. Just vagueness.

What are your thoughts on all this? She has dumped me and recycled me in the past like 4 times. I broke it off once. It seems like that one time breaking it off has massively triggered her feelings of 'not being good enough', and I cant get through anymore. Is this classic push pull? Is it revenge for me breaking up, so she now returns the favour harshly? Mostly the words of Theoden go through my mind: what can men do against such reckless hate? Again, this seems to prove that we can never be together and its also been way too taxing for me to do so, since she doesnt seem to change. I just have a lot of troule processing this and dealing with the hurt. I also feel like I'm going mad- retracing my steps, did I really do so much wrong? This is something many of us here grapple with.

[PeteWitsend]

Hi all,

Small update on this matter.
There would be a meetup this week of our mutual group of friends. My BPD-ex has still blocked me everywhere. She noticed from the group whatsapp that I intended to join the meetup. She messaged me on LinkedIn to verify that, and noted she thought us seeing each other, even in group atmosphere, would lead to trouble. I offered, as a sign of understanding, to stay away for once.
...

This is a bit of a pickle.  it's unfortunate you have mutual friends, because it's harder to avoid the person.  and assuming you drink (like me) managing your impulse control also involves managing your alcohol intake at times like this.  I find it's easier to do if I set my expectations and plan beforehand.  

If I were you, I would simply ignore her, go to the events you want to go to, be polite to her, but don't sit and spend time with her.  if drama starts, politely excuse yourself and leave.  

if it gets out of control, confide in your mutual friends that you don't feel comfortable going to events when she's there.  if they've already seen this stuff happening they will understand.  it will also help you identify who your real friends are, and who are just acquaintances.

If you feel yourself slipping and wanting to fall all over yourself and get dragged into a sobbing, emotional fest with her just to try and get laid, maybe you need to politely excuse yourself, say goodbye to others at the party, and go home.  or go elsewhere.  

set some healthy boundaries for yourself and keep to them.  I think you really need to learn to do that anyway, or you're going to have a lot of relationship problems... even without persons-with-BPD!

What are your thoughts on all this? ... I also feel like I'm going mad- retracing my steps, did I really do so much wrong? This is something many of us here grapple with.

Again: you are focusing on the words of a disordered person.  she will create problems if there are none.  that's how she operates.  that's how her brain is wired.

even if you invented a time machine, went back and did everything she claims she wanted you to do, she will find something else to fight with you about.  she might even contradict what she claimed she wanted just to pick a fight!

And guess what?  that's just the nature of BPD.  interpersonal conflict is not a means to an end for them, it IS the end.  it's their goal.  

if you like it, keep trying with her.  if you don't, move on.  

[Adrian26]

Hi Pete,

Thanks for the advice. I actually did as you suggested before reading it. I decided that since my absence was offered as a gesture of kindness, and she was being so cold, I didn't care anymore to stay away from friends just for her.
And pressured by one of our friends she unblocked me on whatsapp and we agreed to some neutrality for that night. We set some forbidden topics that could trigger us, such as the past, other lovers, our potential as a couple, etc.

It turned into a terrible night. There were only 5 of us so hard to avoid each other. The lads and I had our fun before she arrived, though I was nervous. When she got there she was distant, cold. Sat beside me before quickly changing places. Start cozing up to one of our male friends (who's in a relationship and who she's not really into, but still). We played a game which rewards those who know the sense of humor of the other well. I remarked kindly that gave her an advantage in guessing my humor (since we know each other well). She dismissed that coldly. The cozing up got worse. Friendly questions about her job hunt were all answered except for mine, though I was genuinely interested. She made it a point to emphasise she had just come from another 'meetup with someone', a vague term she has also used previously to invoke my jealousy. She made a joke about me thinking the two of us had potential- despite that being a forbidden subject. When I indeed poured myself a drink, she scampered 'what grief are you trying to drown huh?' - knowing full well I had been trying to solve our problems and move forward with her- with her cruelly dismissing any future the day before.

During a party game she was outright antagonistic. Later on when I was in the bathroom and we were about to go to a bar, she told the others 'I'm never taking him home again. You guys can have him'.

The absolute disdain and coldness she showed, while I had recently been nothing but cooperative and understanding. At some point I went outside to catch a breather, and couldn't help myself and cried. Luckily one of my friends came outside and he comforted me, we took a train to our town together and he heard me out and was very understanding. Decided for myself I won't go to any small group meetups where she is, we briefly discussed the option of rotating attendance before.

[once removed]

Adrian, i think the best advice i could give you right now is to give her a very wide berth. stay away...for now.

i wouldnt send kind messages or congratulations. i wouldnt send any offers of truces or trying to let bygones be bygones.

im not telling you to give up any hope, or to give up in general.

i am saying that right now, every interaction is going badly, is likely to get worse, and the best remedy for that is to leave her radar entirely...try to give a chance for the ice to thaw.

[Adrian26]

Thanks OnceRemoved.

I agree. Nothing fruitful can come out of this at this point. No amount of understanding or kindness can help. Additionally, I also cannot allow myself to get into anything that humiliating again. So those are clear 'no's' for me.

Thank you all for your advice. Will update this piece once there is news.

[Adrian26]

Hello all,

As promised, a small update on how the situation developed.

Ever since she was provocative, harsh and cold during a meetup two weeks ago, I refrained from contacting her again. A few days ago it was her birthday. I thought long and hard about just congratulating her. Not as a means to initiate more contact, but because I believe it is a basic civil thing to do, and I do that with my other exes as well. To have gotten to the point where to out of spite or anger not saying congratulations... maybe I did not want to admit that we actually had gotten to that point.

My friends advised me against it, as it would give the message that no matter what she does Ill keep coming back/remain friendly. So I didnt send anything. One friend even remarked she'd probably contact me if I kept quiet.

Boom- he was right. She sent me a 3 minute voicenote on her bday. Indicating she was in an art gallery on holiday- reflecting on a 'stormy year. She thought she in a way wanted to accept what happened. She emphasized it was her birthday today, and she believed it very important how much she had grown as a person and what she had learned about herself last year. She had also come to the conclusion to how much she values personal relationships, be they friendships, family, or romantic ones.
"All of the people on this list know how much I love them and how grateful I am for them... and I want you to know the same. While I'm not sure I'm happy with the many turbulent turns we had during our time together, I want you to know the same. I fell in love with you this past year, and I am grateful for all the ups and downs we experienced because they made me grow to the person I am now, and I increasingly like and appreciate the person I've become."  She hoped that I felt the same way- i believe she meant she hoped that despite the ups and downs I too was grateful for our time together in the end.

She also said that if I felt like these words were useless to me I didnt need to reply and could just delete the message, but she wanted to expressed them and that maybe it would help hearing them.

I just don't know guys. It was even predicted she would reach out when I remained silent or particularly ignored her birthday. She even sent this weeks after she was a total provocative, mean, ice cold b*iatch during a meetup where on her suggestion we would remain neutral and avoid sensitive topics. I was visibly hurt back then, especially since I offered sympathy and understanding.
She did not apologize in any way. In fact, when I had reached out to her with therapy breakthroughs of a similar case months before she basically told me to f*ck off and that she didnt want me in her life. She cut off contact. Again, this seems all about her- her finding solace or something when it suits her, and basically affirming my worth as a tool for her growth, a stepping stone. Maybe it was her way to excuse all the bad stuff that had happened and that she had done, since at least it led to 'improving' herself. I am not equipment, I am not a bandage for her recovery. Everything is regarded as valueable or not only in view of her growth. Youre either beneficial for her or youre discarded. My needs and feelings as a whole were not considered. The road to her 'success' is paved with pain and neglect she inflicted upon others.
Additionally, I frowned upon her so called growth because I wonder if she truly got to know herself better. Maybe in some ways she learned about weaknesses and certain triggers, but she's definitely not able to admit her wrongs and the lengths she'll go through, the levels of sabotage and manipulation and lies shes capable of in the face of others.

Mutual friends were even shocked by the callousness of her reaching out in such a way. They suggested it was both a test and a genuine attempt at 'closure'/

I did not see any use for an argument so just replied curtly 'Good to hear youre doing better. Congrats on your bday, have fun in Scotland'. She replied: 'Will do, daddy'. With daddy being a semi-ironic nickname she used for me in- and outside of bed when we were dating. I replied no more.

At this point for the first time I want to block her for real. This cycle of reaching out yet offering nothing is pathological and shows utter disregard for my feelings. At the same time it seems she's testing if I'm still available and in her orbit. What would you guys suggest? Am I too sensitive in seeing the utterly self-centered way she has of seeing this?
I am torn between being angry and just criticizing her selfish, typical way of thinking but at the same time I fully believe this will be of no use- it will only make me hate her more and its not like she's gonna apologize. I lean to saying something like 'You did not want to work on us, There is no more growth between us and since you do not seem like youre willing to fix this, it is finally, finally time to move on.

[Dungahass]

What a complete mind ****. I think your very short yet sympathetic reply was the best way to handle it.

Your friends are right, it could be a "closure" message, or it could be a test. I tend to think it was the latter. In my case, such things have always been tests, or an excuse to reach out. Do you really think she's found some new peace? Like, legit growth and peace? How long will this new state last for her? I don't know her but I doubt it. I know I have often seen my ex in these various stages of "I'm discovered x" or "I had this ephiphany about life", or "I have this new routine that makes me feel great", and they've each been short-lived, and those "epiphanies" all end up changing weeks/months later. Its hard to tell exactly what's going on with her, and meanwhile you get back on the rollercoaster ride.

Perhaps take a day or two or three to think about what you wanna do with this latest contact, if anything at all, especially if you want to give the relationship another try. Again, I think your reply was the best way to handle it. Short, calm, unphased, and without ill intent. The kind of message which makes the other person wonder if you're still hanging on to them. Those have worked for me in the past, when the ex would reach out last year after discarding me.

[Adrian26]

Hi Dungahass,

Thanks for your reply. I haven't been as active on other discussion topics as I'd like, including yours. Sorry for that.

It turned out to be a test. I didnt contact her for a few days, though I gotta be honest, it was hard, especially with Valentines Day around the corner. It took me a lot of strength not to send her something sweet like 'Yeah, in the end I'm happy I got to know you too'.
I went out with friends, for unrelated reasons but they also knew how to restrain me.

When I got back home I watched some series to unwind, and I missed a whatsapp call from her. I merely responded with '?', and after that this marvelous freakshow started. Her words:

'Whats wrong? Arent you feeling okay? I'm somewhere inside, but if there is something wrong I can arrange to go outside and I can help you?'
- You were the one contacting me, dear girl, everything is fine here.
'Oh, that must have been a mistake. A friend of my friend had my phone, and she pressed your photo. I told her about you a while ago. It was an accidental call, sorry. I really thought something was up, I'm so glad everything is okay.'

I said her worries were very sweet, and asked her to say hi to my nemesis (her friend, we never got along). Nothing else. She sent me the most thirsty pic of her and her friend, full focus on her b00bs and especially her see through nipples. Always a pleasure, I remarked curtly.

Soon after she videocalled me, I think outside of a disco place. She again repeated how panicked she was that something might have happened to me- 'Yeah I told everyone, I gotta get outside! Something might be up with Adrian! So I went out as fast as I could but.. thankfully nothing is wrong. I love you Adrian, and I hope youre happy.'

I replied I was in a good place and wished her fun holidays.
I was blocked again soon after, and now I finally returned the favor and blocked her on all accounts, texts, even phonecalls.

What in sanity's name was that? Is she losing it? Does she just want attention? Does she notice she's losing grip on me and is dissociating into some bizarre masquerade role?

[once removed]

its a little bit difficult to say, exactly.

you know her best, and your instincts may be right.

people with bpd traits deeply fear rejection. so a person like that may use a sort of risk averse approach in trying to get your attention, or test whether there is any attachment.

for example, my ex, long after we broke up, twice sent me a friend request on facebook only to retract it a couple of hours later. it probably took a lot for her, and felt like sticking her neck on the line, so just putting it out there and then retracting it makes for some plausible deniability, as if it was an accident.

if i had to guess, it may be that the silence between the two of you got to her. maybe she was self conscious and felt badly about how shed acted.

her over the top concern for you, the claim that was an accidental call, and then blocking you when you werent very responsive kind of point to someone that wants your attention and is feeling very insecure.

what do you want to do, if anything?

[Dungahass]

Hi Dungahass,

Thanks for your reply. I haven't been as active on other discussion topics as I'd like, including yours. Sorry for that.

Zero need to apologize. We all need to take a breather sometimes, I've done the same.

Indeed, what a strange back and forth, this latest one is. At the same time, not so strange. I agree with once removed, the silence probably got to her. The unblocking then re-blocking sounds like her defense mechanism. She wanted to test you/missed you, and went about it in a round-about way ("are you ok?") rather than just straight up telling you. It might have taken a lot for her to reach out. When my ex last year started chasing me, she was NOT direct about it, and I had to ask her what she wanted because she was just hovering around me without straight up telling me she wants to get back together. And I do believe it took a lot for her to risk opening up and fearing rejection, which is why she ended up blocking me on everything after I told her I need space. Almost like a frightened child, who went out into the scary world, only to realize it is indeed scary, and runs back in and closes the door.

[Adrian26]

Thank you both for your replies. They make sense.
I just thought she finally went off the deep end and was heavily dissociating, but she's had these 'accidental' phone calls before in between phases of no contact.

The thing is: if this is just a mechanism for her that is triggered after no contact- then there is no use to contact her.
If she has genuine feelings, feels ashamed for her actions and this is her clumsy way of trying to reach out, then I might leave her one voicemail to offer a chance to explain what she wants directly, or else quit cause were just going in circles.

Thanks for your quick replies gentlemen.

[Harri]

This thread reached the post limit and has been locked and split.  The discussion continues here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=343183.msg13100848#msg13100848

Thank you.