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Author Topic: 14 year old daughter not wanting to worship with family Part 2  (Read 1323 times)
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« on: January 07, 2020, 06:41:27 PM »

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=341690.new#new

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Well, my daughter hasn't admitted it, but there can be little doubt it's "really" about a boy.

My oldest daughter was never "boy crazy".  She was totally into horses.

So...this is new to me.  Sigh.  

Best,

FF
« Last Edit: January 09, 2020, 06:36:46 PM by Cat Familiar » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2020, 07:31:14 PM »

Move to the top

Well, my daughter hasn't admitted it, but there can be little doubt it's "really" about a boy.

My oldest daughter was never "boy crazy".  She was totally into horses.

So...this is new to me.  Sigh. 

Best,

FF

Snicker, snicker!
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« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2020, 07:05:03 AM »

He he

For those of us "in the know" - it's because we did the same thing  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) as teens.

My Dad caught on to the crush. One day we were driving home and he saw the crush walking by. He rolled down the window and yelled "hello ___________( boy's name)". Before the boy could turn around to see who it was, I was down on the car floor lying flat so he wouldn't see me. I was at the stage where I might have a crush, but was too timid to even speak to him!

Please don't do that!

"Boy" had no idea who I was, and we didn't even speak before that, and not after that. I don't remember his name, but I do recall my father's "friendly" gesture. Ha ha
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« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2020, 07:07:04 AM »

"Please earth... swallow me whole... NOWWWWW!" 

Poor Notwendy  Love it! (click to insert in post) Love it! (click to insert in post) Love it! (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2020, 08:10:24 AM »

OK..FF is hijacking his own thread.  I'm going to tell a story about S19, when he was S15.  

Pretty snazzy dresser, outgoing and friendly guy.  Seemed to have lots of girls in his "orbit".

Anyway, he wants to take out this girl (for valentines day) that rode the school bus with him (and her Mom was school bus driver) so her parents took her to the restaurant and FFw and I take our son.  

We kinda waived across the parking lot at the other parents for the drop off.  Then we went out on date night.

Well...there was an open space next to their car at pickup time, so we pull in and start talking.  Had a great time.

Then we see my son and date come out and hesitate as they realize that the parents are out there talking.  Then they come on over and are standing (awkwardly) between both sets of parents that are having a great time talking.

Then...in the most epic line I've ever heard any parent utter in my life...(seriously..it's one of those "I'm not worth moments")

The girls mom leans out the window and is obvious about staring at my son and then staring at her daughter and she says...

So...are you guys going to do this thing or not?

Both teens are mortified.  My son makes a move and gives her a big hug and says he had a good time.

They got in the cars and we left.

I was still chuckling and said outloud that I thought he was going to get a kiss..


"Daaaad..."

Silence for a while... Being cool (click to insert in post) Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)

Best,

FF
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« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2020, 09:03:14 AM »

Haha Enabler. I was so upset. Teens at that age are embarrassed just to be seen with us.

And FF- how awkward for those kids. LOL. I hope they will laugh about it one day.


But for your D- at least she is going to church, and also has a crush on someone within your value system. My hunch is to leave this alone.
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« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2020, 09:12:00 AM »

Oh, FF, that's classic! Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) Given what a teaser my dad is, I'm surprised he never did something like that to me. Though my one high school "boyfriend" did swear that he caught my dad glaring at him a few times when we were semi-dating (and this was a kid I grew up and my dad had always liked). So, I guess my dad was more of an intimidator than a joker when it came to that sort of thing.

I wasn't really all that into boys as a teen (too busy obsessing over old movies and none of the boys at my school reminded me of Cary Grant -- go figure). But I do remember how the opposite sex seemed to motivate so many of the actions of other kids in my class. Can't tell you how much "youth group swapping" went on when it came to church. You could tell who was dating whom by where people were going to Sunday night youth group.

Anyway, I agree with Notwendy. It sounds like she's made a good choice as far as crushes go. Best to let it run its course.
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« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2020, 06:06:44 AM »

Beyond "crushes"- the kids also like to attend the youth group together- and if a group was doing something fun, then many kids wanted to go.

In our area, the youth group leaders seem to be aware that the kids are peer oriented. Some knew lots of the kids, beyond church members, as they wanted to bring their friends.

As you know, all kids are different and this one may be more social, or more into "boys" than the sibling.

Also, back to the BPD topic, as a teen, I spent time with friends also as a respite from the chaos at my own home with BPD mother. This was a positive thing. Some of my friends had emotionally stable mothers and they became role models for me. As much as you want to do things together as a family, consider that other mothers may be setting an example for your child.

For you as a parent, you can still supervise by getting to know the parents of the kids she wants to spend time with, the churches and the youth groups. If you have several you can feel a comfort level with, that gives your D some freedom to explore.
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« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2020, 09:24:42 AM »


OK, there at two very distinct thoughts/issues in this thread.  The daughters crush and desire to be with the boy (and associated other friends) as well as a daughter sorting out values and Biblical Wisdom.

I've had a couple discussions with my P about this issue and my "plan".

Oh...two days ago when I had my meeting with my P I "revealed" that I had figured out it was a crush, not her desire "to be taught God's word" and I have to say I've never seen P laugh so much, especially after I said I was going to have to get on here and "eat some crow" with the ladies on BPDfamily.

Once she composed herself, she said this is classic teenager and she "knew" as soon as she read my daughters letter (over a month ago) that my daughter was "protesting too much" that it wasn't about friends and was about the Biblical teaching.

Plus...since then I've asked what she learned and "she misplaced her paper" and other things.  Basically couldn't even remember if the lesson was from old or new testament.

We had a "temporary agreement" worked out where she would go to "her" church one Sunday and "family" church on the next Sunday.  I let her pick the Sunday and...you guessed it, it matched up with when "he" was going to be there and when he was not going to be there. (hmmm)

Plus, this boy has been to our house several times, I know his parents (great family) and my daughter sees him a lot at school.  We are very liberal about having people over, although with opposite sex stuff we require an adult in the house.  Luckily D22 lives close by and she sometimes stands in.

Anyway part of becoming an adult (which she claims she "almost is") is being able to form a persuasive argument and be clear about what you are asking for.

The whole "asking for one thing when I really want something else is no good." 

If you up the ante to "God is telling me to do this" (which she is) but it's really for another purpose..ugg, that's bad.

So, most likely she will end up going to church with us and having very liberal visitation with the boy, and occasionally going to special events at the old church with him. 

I've got several very distinct thoughts or issues here, so I'll probably split up the posts.

Best,

FF

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« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2020, 09:35:14 AM »

The cold water talk

Again, my oldest daughter was never boy crazy.  

So..imagine my surprise when I walked into living room to a "cozy scene" on the couch.  D14 and the boy leaning into each other.  Maybe some legs intertwined.

Well...it wasn't bad enough that I felt I needed to break it up in the moment, but the next day as I was getting some ice water from the fridge I started a talk with D14 while FFw was in the room.

"D14, you know ice water is really cool.  I was wondering if I needed to bring you two some ice water yesterday to cool things off on the couch.  I was wondering if you guys were overheated?"   Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)

She was mortified.

"D14, here is the thing.  You need to keep some space on the couch.  Otherwise I'll be bringing you two ice water.  If you think you are embarrassed now..."

"Ok Daaaaaad."

The FFw had a talk with her too.

Yeah...like I said, I've never had one that "I had to keep an eye on..."

Sigh...

Best,

FF
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« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2020, 09:51:17 AM »


OK (switching thoughts)

If this was a "regular church", I would be much more open about her attending and learning there more.

I have to be careful about sharing explicit details here, but let's just say after I complained (following the Biblical model), they did not use the model to respond, instead they made it clear I'm not longer welcome there...ever.

Imagine a church with "ties to national organizations" that publishes things explicitly saying what is and isn't OK for them to do and what actions are "always unethical".

Well, I let them know through the complaint process that I have objective proof (to their published standards) that their leadership does the "always unethical" stuff in private and then try to use their positions of authority to silence me, in fact threatening me with expulsion should I ever speak of the matter.

Umm...I think you guys have a sense of who I am.  Was there any doubt how I would respond to such a threat?

I didn't stay quiet and they followed through.  I'm still considering my next steps.

My purpose of telling this is to say that this is not like I want to go to Baptist and my daughter wants to go Methodist.

I want my children taught by ethical people.  I also want my children to be children and not worry about big horrible adult stuff.

It's very likely I will end up revealing some of the details of my issue with the church to D14.  I would rather not, I would rather her "just worry" about being 14.

Anyway, D14 and I have a temporary agreement of back and forth that lasts until end of January.  At which time she is going to share her "Biblical justification" of how she works it out to worship outside the family AND that I should step away from my Biblical role and allow her to do this.

I can't imagine there is any rational argument she can make, but we'll see.  I'm going to need to be very gentle here and focus on that she can and will be able to spend lots of time with the crush.

Sigh...

Best,

FF
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« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2020, 11:01:52 AM »

FF, this is more than a crush. If these two are "snuggling" on the couch, they are an item, or whatever it's called these days ( and I can't keep up with the terms". In our day it was "going out" or "going with" even if they don't go anywhere together.

Or  the term "hooking up" when, after I got over the shock,  my child reassured me that there are different meanings to that and not what I thought and to them it meant "going out".

But whatever, this is a matter of the teen age heart, which is irrational, and making her justify her pursuit of God is basically asking her to lie to you since the original premise is probably that.

I would also not share your concerns with the church. It's adult material, and she's 14.

This is not about your Biblical authority. This is her teen age feelings and making this about your authority is taking it to a place it isn't.

You do have the right to not allow her to attend that church. I don't know how she feels about that. If it is about the boy, there are other possibilities. The boy can come to church with your family. You can arrange for them to see each other at other times. If he comes to your home, then they do have that chance. If you forbid that church, but give her alternate times to see him, it may go over better.

Or you can let her go, knowing she is 14. This crush may pass, it may not. Obstructing it is likely to prolong it, and put her in victim mode. Basically, young teens act a lot like people with BPD. They are emotional and not always rational. Feelings can feel like facts to them. This is a normal developmental stage for a young teen. She isn't going to communicate with you on that adult rational level like you do.

It's well known that trying to pull two emotional teens apart can propel them together.

At 14 she may not be absorbing the church material as it is. If it truly is that objectionable then simply say no and then handle the emotional response. Make it about the church, not the boy and let her see him at other times as he seems to be a good kid.

In addition to the cold water talk, I hope you have had full discussions about contraception. I know you probably have strong feelings about this and know what you wish for your D to do, but a strong willed, emotional teen may want to make up her own mind. I had many talks like this with my kids. They knew my preferences. I also had the "adult in the house" rule. But then one day, they were 16 and were able to drive away in the car.  At this point, it was up to them. I know you have older kids but if this one is more interested in boys than the other, she's ready for facts too.
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« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2020, 11:19:32 AM »

Perhaps I am not presenting this clearly.

I suspect she is lying to me now about her reasoning.  She explicitly says this is NOT about friends or anything of the like, it's because this church preaches and does what the Bible says (and variations on that theme).

She says now she has read the Bible and believes it is telling her that it is OK to do this (occasionally inferring regardless of "what anyone else says").  Not saying that "she doesn't have an authority" anymore, but that's the implication.

Furthermore, even though I have differences with this church, they teach that this is not her decision (yet).  

So, she wants to go to a church that teaches she can't come to their church (in this situation).  And she wants to go to that church to learn what they are teaching, because it's the "truth".

When in reality..it's likely about a boy.  

He'll be welcome to come with us sometimes and sometimes I'll be willing to let her go do something over there.  

I don't believe I'm asking her to "make up a lie", I'm asking her to think through her decision making and balance rational and emotional persuasive arguments.

To your point about making it about the boy and not the church...that's exactly what P suggested.  However, given "multi-generational" church dsyfunction on my wife's side of the family, I need to be gentle, consistent and firm about focusing on what is actually said in the Bible, versus "what you want it to say"

Example:  My MIL has stated "As long as your heart is in the right place it's ok if you sin while trying to correct someone, because ultimately it's for the greater good"  (and variations on this)

Basically, the Bible is for me to apply to other people and hold them accountable to, yet I'm not accountable to the same standard "because that's what God wants".   Uggg

Boy..does that have BPD written all over it.

Basically...nip it in the bud.  Gently.

Best,

FF


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« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2020, 09:59:40 PM »

FF, I'm wondering if there is more to it than just being about a boy - she's adding in the Bible teaching on her own. As you said, she is asserting her independence from your authority which is pretty common in the teen years, and she has been doing things that go against some of the teachings of the church in question.

My fil is known within his flavor of baptist churches as a bible scholar and likes to "amaze" people with his abilities. That knowledge did not translate into loving relationships within his family. H described his dad "using his Biblical knowledge" against others in arguments. Basically, he would use the Bible to make people do what he wanted them to do.

FIL also invalidated h's feelings and experiences using scripture.

I'm concerned that developmentally, a 14yo may not be able yet to engage her higher cognitive skills to put forth a well articulated argument - or even to fully understand what is going on within herself.

My d15 has a friend who recently got into a lot of trouble - this friend thought that she should be able to be free of adults in authority. The situation provided some teachable moments for me as we talked about what was happening; it also brought up some of the pain and trauma that kids feel from issues that their parents are having. It's hard for kids who are still in the midst of the pain to articulate that sometimes - because their hearts do not feel safe.

In my more recent church experiences, there have been several teens who have been separated from friends because of the issues between the adults (adults were expelled from worship) within the church environment; it is painful for them. It's also not their fault that these things have happened; they have to live with the aftermath of something that they don't fully understand, though. It's a bit like what happens when parents divorce.

All that to say, there's likely a lot more than just the boy... 
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« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2020, 03:20:07 AM »

FF, this is the ultimate in approaches that push young women to rebel against their fathers.
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« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2020, 06:54:47 AM »

FF, this is the ultimate in approaches that push young women to rebel against their fathers.


and right into the arms of the boyfriend...
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« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2020, 08:25:23 AM »


I'm concerned that developmentally, a 14yo may not be able yet to engage her higher cognitive skills to put forth a well articulated argument - or even to fully understand what is going on within herself.
 

Exactly...and they develop this ability by practicing.

Listen...this is not about me showing her that she is right or wrong. 

This is about her sharing with me what she has found to guide her. 

It's about her doing the work, not me.  I will be a guide, ask questions give her areas to read.

I'm not making claims about "what the Bible says" and "what the Bible is leading me to do"..she is (just to be clear).

I've made zero...absolutely zero claims to her about what the Bible says.

How exactly will her discovering and sharing what the Bible says drive her into the arms of a boy?

How exactly will this approach cause her to rebel?

I can't imagine that anyone here is advocating people walk around claiming the Bible says this that and the other, without having them be able to show you were it says whatever they are claiming.

Perhaps I'm missing something here?

Best,

FF
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« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2020, 08:29:17 AM »


All that to say, there's likely a lot more than just the boy... 

Right, which is why I said earlier there are two separate and completely different issues here.

1.  The boy

2.  How D14 read and interprets the Bible (and by extension develops her relationship with her Savior).


Best,

FF
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« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2020, 08:30:07 AM »

FF, this is the ultimate in approaches that push young women to rebel against their fathers.

Can you connect some dots on this?..I'm not seeing this...in the least.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2020, 10:17:50 AM »

FF,

I'm not there yet as our babies are still ickle so I offer my viewpoint with tentative steps.

I think there is an subtle art is marking a teenagers card such that they 'get away' with certain things, such that they can go away and learn and 'do differently' next time. It strikes me that you D feels compelled to justify her heart felt actions/intentions with head thought biblical justifications (I think I mentioned this above). I can imagine this happening in your home where most things are endorsed or denied based on a biblical yard-stick... it's okay if you can justify yourself with scripture.

So in my mind the structure of how you run the home compelled her to biblically justify something that wasn't really something that should be biblically justified. She got caught in the impossible justification... a lie if you like... and you saw error. You don't like errors/deceptions and more importantly I don't think you like the smell of manipulation.

If you push too hard to get complete accountability she likely has a choice, see you as an unreasonable unbending ogre who imposes his opinion, or someone who knows, but has the grace and the humility to say 'I don't need to pursuit this any further. Your D doesn't have biblical justification for her choices, and I am not sure she needs them... but she feels she needs it to sedate you, and maintain your fatherly respect.

Also, it's worthwhile considering how your W's behaviour feeds into this. Your D (not sure if it's this one) gets caught with booze... Your W hangs her for it, no doubt referring to her as a sinner or something to that effect. She is being called 'bad' or 'wrong', things aren't 'bad' or 'wrong' when they are biblically justified. I doubt she wants to be called 'bad' or 'wrong' anymore, that's probably not very nice... especially when all she is doing is chasing a boy. (FWIW I see my W do this. It's not wrong if God told me to do it).

Consider what your reaction would have been had she have told you the truth... "I want to go to the old church because there's this absolute stud I'm head over heels in love with." Would that reaction have made her feel accepted or bad? If she felt bad, what would she most likely do... come towards you, or move towards him? (Again, I see how my behaviour has push my W towards others).

Enabler
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« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2020, 02:32:21 PM »

Staff only This thread has reached its maximum length and is now locked. The conversation continues here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=342254.0
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