Thoughts on lies

[Narza]

Hello all,

Thank you for the warm welcome in my previous post and the advice given.

Gone through all the lessons on this forum and read "Walking on eggshells" and have "Loving someone with BPD" and have "The high-conflict couple" to get through.  I'm quite addicted to this research but a part of me in the back of my mind is thinking that she will never get in contact. She has indirectly contacted me through a friend which was basically to setup a lie!

So this gets me to why I am posting again.  Lies.

She accused me of lying a few times however she could never prove anything but this is where I understand feelings are facts for her.

On the other hand, I managed to catch her out lying a couple of times to try and suit her side of the argument. As soon as I did, I noticed the argument was immediately moved to another topic of argument to distract me from catching her out.

She also lied to two of our mutual friends saying I had contacted people to say that she was evil and to block her in SM. I understand that this is her distortion campaign and was trying to get the two closest people she knows of me to side with her.

Now, she contacted one mutual friend on Friday just gone and this friend spoke to her. My BPD ex (diagnosed) said to my friend that she had to cut the call as she was going out in a 5 hour hike.  Not this to me is indirect contact. She knows my friend will relay this back to me which she did.  Thing is, I am a massive hiker myself and when myself and my ex were together, I was in Google maps a lot looking for hikes for us to do. She lives in London and doesn't drive and as I am an extremely avid hiker, I know for a fact that there isn't really a 5 hour hike to be had.

Now my BPD ex is a serial poster in SM. Any chance she can get, she will post.  Our mutual friends have also advised she didn't post anything over the weekend. (I'm blocked)

So, what are your thoughts on Lying? Why? And when I caught her out, is that typical of how they handle it and was I right not to press the fact that I caught her out?

Many thanks in advance.

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[zachira]

Good topic! I think one of the things we struggle most with are the lies the person with BPD tells and how we are accused of lying when they are in fact not telling the truth. Part of having BPD seems to be an ongoing need to blame others for uncomfortable feelings that they cannot acknowledge. I think it is important to correct the lies especially letting outsiders know what the truth is. I have read a few of Bill Eddy's books, and he is very firm about heading off negative advocates, people who will believe what the BPD says unless they hear otherwise and will take the side of the person with BPD. Bill Eddy makes it clear that many people believe what they hear, and rarely discover the truth on their own. You have already read some of the best books on BPD. Do check out Bill Eddy as he has many valuable tips on how to deal with people with personality disorders.

[pursuingJoy]

Narza, I agree with zachira that this is a good topic! From what I gather, BPD lies are rooted in shame-based projection fomented by poor impulse control. They paint themselves in a better light to meet a physical or emotional need or get their way. In my experience, most of it isn't outright fiction but a distortion of the truth, which is much harder to untangle.

In addition to addressing lies with truth, I wonder if there is a way to effectively address negative advocates recruited by BPD's to support their negative behavior and blame? My husband and others are often recruited by his BPD mom to pass along nasty-grams. I'd like to learn how to respond to people who report the BPD's message. I think this type of reporting is most often a reflection of poor boundaries.

[Narza]

Many thanks both zachira and pursuingJoy for your replies

Zachira, what books do you suggest from the author that you mentioned? 

Ive been told by one of our mutual friends that i need to stop researching as im technically self harming myself but the more info i have the better informed i will be.

I like how you mentioned that its not all out fiction but more distortion of truth pursuingJoy, but what a mind field to have to look out for.

Like you suggested also pursuingJoy, i would like to also hear from anyone if they have further input on how to handle the communication of lies/distortion of truth once you have discovered they have been trying to mislead you?

Thanks in advance once again.

[zachira]

I recommend all of Bill Eddy's books which are sold and reviewed on Amazon.com. Some of them are reviewed on this site. He teaches about how to deal with people who have personality disorders and the negative advocates that support the lies they tell. The book most often mentioned on this site is: "Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder" which I like because it shows how a spouse with a personality disorder can completely turn on the other spouse with all kinds of baseless accusations like child abuse,domestic abuse, and can convince a judge that what he/she is saying is true unless the accused spouse learns how to defend himself/herself from all the lies.

[UBPDHelp]

I also love this topic, despite having no idea how to handle it. AND also welcome any insight.

My H (uBPD) constantly tells me I lie.  Worse than that is that I am actually too honest. That sounds self righteous, but I have shared things that were true (overshared maybe?), that have then been thrown in my face. I’ve told in-laws truth to then hear my H tell the same story with exaggerations and untruths.  All done for high impact — horror, funny, scandal, whatever. After all this time, I’ve learned to hold back, which feels a bit like lying, but not everyone is owed the whole story I guess.

I actually caught my H in a lie recently.  It wasn’t a big lie, or even that important, but the lie fit the “story” he was telling the family. I asked about it in front of everyone (I was confused and wasn’t trying to call him out), but with enough room for him to get himself out of the corner. He managed an answer that sort of allowed both to be true, but I know that’s not the case.  

And totally agree with PursuingJoy that often they are not outright lies, but distortions. Yep, exactly for me.  But do they know they’re distortions or do they believe them?

I think this goes hand in hand with my H caring more about what outsiders think of him and of his family than he does what we think of him. He has to present a wonderful, but untrue, facade.

Hope I didn’t kidnap this thread...great topic/observation.

[Narza]

Thank you for your reply UBPDHelp, really appreciate it.

Ive been reading your story and im amazed at how you have managed to deal with all the outbursts and foul language you have had to endure.

You havent hijacked it at all, its really good to get someone elses experiences on here and the more people that can respond with their scenarios i think we will all get a better picture. 

Just hope we also get someone who has managed to negotiate/navigate the lies/distorted truth to help give everyone some advice.

[zachira]

"Just hope we also get someone who has managed to negotiate/navigate the lies/distorted truth to help give everyone some advice."

I think Bill Eddy gives the best advice on how to negotiate/navigate the lies/distorted truth. He says that the overemotional tone in which the person tells lies and the constant repetition of the lies leads others to believe the lies. He explains that the people being defamed tend to believe that the truth will come out and that they don't need to say anything. Bill Eddy says we must  defend ourselves from the lies from the beginning and tell others what the truth is especially those people that tend to become negative advocates for the liers. 

[pursuingJoy]

He says that the overemotional tone in which the person tells lies and the constant repetition of the lies leads others to believe the lies.

So true.

He explains that the people being defamed tend to believe that the truth will come out and that they don't need to say anything.

I am so guilty of believing this.

Bill Eddy says we must  defend ourselves from the lies from the beginning and tell others what the truth is especially those people that tend to become negative advocates for the liers. 

I can see the benefit of this, especially considering the author's background in legal defense. I'm sure he saw how people not clarifying truth hurt them in a court setting. Any thoughts on how to do this without falling into JADEing or just looking/sound defensive, which can backfire?

[Narza]

Bill Eddy says we must  defend ourselves from the lies from the beginning and tell others what the truth is especially those people that tend to become negative advocates for the lairs.

Thanks for this, and this is something that I did with the 2 mutual friends we have that i am in contact with.  We have a third mutual friend which i was close too, but ive distanced myself from since the initial breakup, although spoken to once during the 2 month NC i did with my ex and myself!  Thing is, this third friend was supposed to spend this weekend with my ex and one of the 2 mutual friends im in contact with this weekend, but this third friend has bailed on her for the second time running.  My Ex (didnt rage at me) told me that this third mutual friend bailed on her when we last met, but also said she was done chasing people (meaning this third mutual friend who i believe at one point was my ex's FP)

Now... (Sorry, im thinking out loud here and i need to put this down on paper/forum)  This third mutual friend is getting a divorce and and after all my research on BPD and her telling me in the past that he has Narcissistic behaviours, I believe he has NPD and it really makes sense that he does.  He managed to get her whole family to side with him and isolated her and they all loved him over her.  Im going off topic here sorry.

So, i understand that Bill Eddy states we need to correct the lies that have been told by pwBPD (which im sure as hell my Ex has told this to my 3rd mutual friend) so i feel i should correct this with the 3rd mutual friend, and also help this friend with why her ex husband did what he did but also approach the "reopening" of communication with this friend as i want to give you answers kind of thing...

However, and i truly AM SO SORRY to have good off on a tangent...

The main question i want to try and get to the bottom of is this...  Once we have discovered that the pwBPD has lied, what do we do with this information?  As i said in an earlier post above, as soon as i called my ex out and she noticed she was fumbled, she immediately changed the subject to something that would blindside me so i went into defence mode and forgot about the lie that i had caught her on.  Hope this makes sense?

Do we not allow them to change the subject and bring that lie back to the forefront of the conversation or do we let it slide and bring it up in the future or let it slide altogether? 

I understand there is going to be a whole "communication technique" that we are going to have to employ here IF we need to bring it up, and thats something i will need to research on too, but for now i am not sure if i handled the situation correctly (clearly not as she changed the subject) or is this something that "if i ever do see her again" should be revisited?

Sorry for the waffling and going off on tangents etc, but its been playing on my mind since creating this thread.

[Rev]

So, what are your thoughts on Lying? Why? And when I caught her out, is that typical of how they handle it and was I right not to press the fact that I caught her out?

Many thanks in advance.

My ex told a series of escalating lies - it's way to normalize.  Each of us tells lies …. Some that people tell are lies to protect themselves. Some people tell are to victimize others.  With a pwBPD, it's difficult to tell the difference, often. 

So then it becomes a question of "how much can you tolerate" and "how much should you tolerate" and that's a personal choice.

Personally, when my ex started to lie about things that she knew I held dear - how we managed our finances to get out of debt (she ran up 15 k) behind my back and the ethics around the work we do (we work for the same organization with people at risk) - there was no going back. She could have slept with a dozen guys and it would have had less effect.

My two cents.

Good luck. This one is a tough one.

Rev

[Harri]

Narza, what is your goal for the relationship?  Are you hoping to repair the relationship?

I think the answer to the question above should drive how you handle and respond to such things.  One thing I want to mention for everyone is that Bill Eddy's books are primarily for those who are involved in divorcing a person with a high conflict personality and in work situations.  The techniques he uses are excellent in those contexts.  I am not sure they translate that well to relationships where you want to repair or stay in the relationship long term.

That is not to say you ignore the lies and just roll over and play dead.  But it is to caution you and perhaps slow this down a bit, to see how you can take some of the principles offered here and apply them to Bettering your relationship.

Sorry for the waffling and going off on tangents etc, but its been playing on my mind since creating this thread.

You are not going off on tangents here.  I do think we all need to help focus and center you so you can decide what you want to do.

What do you want regarding your relationship with your 'ex'?

[livednlearned]

Do we not allow them to change the subject and bring that lie back to the forefront of the conversation or do we let it slide and bring it up in the future or let it slide altogether?

Do you feel comfortable paraphrasing the conversation so we can better understand what happened (and what you want to happen)?

There is a little bit of "do you want to be right, or do you want to get along" in these situations.

Sometimes, being right is crucial (safety, etc.) and sometimes getting along is more important, while also aiming to be effective at having our needs met and values respected.

Her tolerance for shame is going to be minimal. At the same time, you may want to shine light on things. A lot depends on what your goal is and how to be effective.

[Turkish]

In her book Understanding The Borderline Mother, Christine Ann Lawson states:

 Some borderlines consciously distort the truth in order to prevent abandonment, maintainself-esteem, or avoid conflict. Others may lie to evoke sympathy, attention, and concern. From the borderline’s perspective, however, lying feels essential to survival. (Althoughnot all borderlines consciously lie, all borderlines experience perceptional distortions.) When desperation drives behavior such as lying or stealing, they feel innocent ofwrongdoing and do not feel guilt or remorse. Apologies are rare, therefore, and borderlinesmay be confused about why others expect them to feel remorse. They believe that otherswould do what they did in order to survive. Their explanation is succinct, “But Ihad to!” Thus the borderline is unconcerned with the consequences of lying because shefeels she had no other option.  

Though the book is a bit dated, and thus the references, she then mentions research that suggested intense emotional episodes hindered the formation of accurate memories.  

I agree with livedandlearned about framing your goal here.  Exposure will trigger shame and a pwBPD will default to those dysfunctional coping mechanisms.  

[SinisterComplex]

I personally cannot stomach liars or lying in general and under no circumstances is it ever ok to me. But instead of getting into depth on that and on a tangent I would rather provide an educational piece here. https://abcnews.go.com/Health/MindMoodNews/story?id=5533538&page=1

This is something I believe that should be rather enlightening and may make it easier to understand and lighten the emotional sting of being lied to and betrayed by someone with BPD.

Cheers and best wishes!

-SC-

[once removed]

i would hardly agree that research is self harm.

there is a lot about BPD that can inform the post mortem of your breakup, how you recover, how you would go about it if you were to get back together, and it can be a great catalyst for learning more about ourselves and human nature in general.

the only caveat id add, is that theres such a slew of misinformation about BPD out there, that it can be difficult to navigate.

BPD makes for an inherent lack of trust in, and suspiciousness of others. as a romantic partner, it can be confusing and really hard to deal with. when it runs that deep, when its part of a world view, its not as simple as proving your case.

when did the lies start in your relationship? what did she accuse you of? what did she lie about?

[Narza]

Oh my, thank you all so much for all your replies and information.

To answer the main questions, I honestly do want to get back with my ex, she really is an incredible person, but i understand i may not get back with her due to her own decisions, however i want to be as clued up as possible if we do get back together.

As for her lies, they werent exactly anything damaging other than the last one that i know of where she contacted people after the last time we met.  This lie was her distortion campaign which was her telling people that i had contacted 2 people on her Social Media saying that she had BPD and that she was evil and that i advised these 2 people to block her / unfollow her.  This never happened on my part but she has told the 2 mutual friends of ours that is what happened, and both of them were having none of what she lied about.  Now this one is the most severe.

As for the other lies, when we last met again, (i didnt have any of this knowledge about BPD at this point unfortunately) it went along the lines of this.  She said that i didnt love her, so i JADEd and said everything that i did in our relationship was for her and love and that i never asked for anything in return, i then proceeded to to justify this by saying that i had invited her back to mine for the weekend a couple of times but she never wanted too and i pointed out that her reply was when i suggested going back to mine was "Why would i go back to yours when i have a place like this?"  She then proceeded to say, "But i had work on the monday"  While we were together, she wasnt working, which i pointed out, then she replied "But there were no trains running so i couldnt get back from yours" and i then pointed out, that there were trains running back then because i had picked our mutual friend up at the train station the following weekend (there were train issues in London recently, but not when we were together).  She then defended her case saying our mutual friend drove down to my ex's, where i then proceeded to say "I know for a fact we picked our friend up at the station because a, i drove to pick her up, b, i dropped her back off, and c, the first thing our friend said to me was ugh, youre all sweaty" (after a hug upon greeting each other, was very hot that weekend and i dont like the heat) and pointed out that my ex laughed!

As soon as she had realised i was right, this was when she immediately changed the subject and blindsided me and went onto another subject.

She has lied about other small insignificant things though in the past which i didnt really feel the need to disclose as they were more from a child like mind, but they were never malicious towards me or anyone, one instance was that she said she had a doll in the house that would move into random rooms without my ex knowing and she had to keep it locked up in a box, and another instance was her saying she was in a cafe and the waitress placed a plate on the table at the opposite end of the table and the plate magically moved towards her without anyone touching it, like a ghost moved it.

Many thanks for reading and for your previous replies

[Harri]

Hi again.   

I am not sure how to explain the moving plate and moving doll 'lies' and I am not sure I would classify them as lies.  It sounds like in her mind these things happened.  Like you said, I do not see maliciousness there.

Regarding the lies about the relationship and how you acted, remember feelings = facts for a lot of people, not just those with BPD.  Sharing those 'feeling facts' with others is certainly hurtful and frustrating.  I think they can be addressed in times of calm when she is more likely to hear you.  Again, I do not see maliciousness there. 

One of the best ways I used to combat being accused of things that never happened is not so much in what I say but more how I respond in terms of tone, facial expression, etc.  A slight smile when someone repeated something my mom (my disordered person) or my ex (BPD or NPD traits) said was to give a sad smile, a small shake of my head and a direct look.  No words to defend, other than maybe "how interesting" and then changing the subject.  Give nothing that would lend credibility to what was said and at the same time do not trash them to another person.  Now, if someone were accusing me of stealing all of their money and belongings or abusing them in some horrid way that is a different story.  I am not sure my approach would change drastically though.  It is hard to say.

Long before I started my recovery from the effects of growing up in a mentally ill family unit, I used to deny, defend, get angry and fight back.  It solved nothing, served only to further escalate a bad situation and many years later when I look back, I cringe and can recognize the anger and hurt that I responded with.  Battling lies told by an angry and hurt person with anger and hurt was just as dysfunctional and damaging to me and how I felt about me.   In some ways I became what I was objecting to.

As soon as she had realised i was right, this was when she immediately changed the subject and blindsided me and went onto another subject.

What do you mean when you say she blindsided you?

[zachira]

It's one thing to become angry about the lies people tell and then respond with anger. It is another thing to not take the lies personally yet correct the lies when they need to be corrected. For example, in the book "Divorce Poison", the author makes it clear that it is naive of a parent who once had a loving relationship with their child, to let the other parent poison the child's mind to the point that the child wants nothing to do with the parent they once loved and cherished. Young children are very vulnerable to brain washing and can be convinced that they have to side with one parent when there is a divorce. Certain kinds of lies need to be corrected whereas there are many lies we can let go. People do tend to believe lies that are repeated over and over, so it does make sense to correct the lies, especially with negative advocates who have the capacity to change their minds if they learn the truth. If the lies have gone on too long, suddenly contesting the lies, makes it hard for people to believe that they have been mislead all along. It about picking your battles when a person is telling lies, knowing how to respond, and with whom to correct the lies or not to correct the lies.

[Mutt]

I just wanted to add some points about trying to be proactive by putting out potential fires from a pwBPD and lies. Now the context or perspective that I’m coming from is from a divorce it life after post divorce and I believe that a lot of the dissociations were after triggering abandonment fears in a pwBPD and the r/a in general and stress and conflict after the divorce.

I don’t think that there is a fast and hard rule and that the onus is on you or that it is your responsibility to take on to dispel myths.

My point is that you can save yourself an immense amount of emotion distress and stress in general by not walking on eggshells with what a pwBPD is saying and unless it’s something that us going to cause serious repercussions to your reputation, job, legal matters etc then absolutely yes take that into consideration and treat it seriously.

Think about the audience that will listen to the lies are they actively engaging in - there are two sides to a story are they taking the story at face value or are they checking with the other person and some people are naturally engaging in drama is that what this is?

BPD and dissociations are fact and it’s something that people have to accept it’s not worth suffering over the fact that his a mentally ill person perceived their reality unless it’s something that would affect you legally by all means take that seriously! I’m just saying that it’s not a hard and fast rule and treat each incident carefully.

I’ve been 7 years out now and I have had to go to court because the ex wanted more child support and wanted full custody and you should have seen the court papers that are filled out it was like a 12 year old had written it the courts care about fact if it’s not fact then it’s dismissed. Just go with the flow but I don’t think that the responsibility falls on me to dispel lies.

[once removed]

if you get back together, it will be a tough road. you will need to have a deeper understanding of what wasnt working, and what will be different going forward.

what is the status of things? it sounds like the two of you havent had direct contact? did she break things off or did you?

[Narza]

You guys really are great with the advice, thank you so so much!

One of the best ways I used to combat being accused of things that never happened is not so much in what I say but more how I respond in terms of tone, facial expression, etc.  A slight smile when someone repeated something my mom (my disordered person) or my ex (BPD or NPD traits) said was to give a sad smile, a small shake of my head and a direct look.  No words to defend, other than maybe "how interesting" and then changing the subject.  Give nothing that would lend credibility to what was said and at the same time do not trash them to another person.

Absolutely love this idea, thank you.  So is this because pwBPD generally are extremely good at picking up on other peoples emotions even before the NONBPD is realising it?

what is the status of things? it sounds like the two of you havent had direct contact? did she break things off or did you?

Things arent great at the moment, blocked everywhere but i have a small glimmer of hope.  In a nutshell, i disappeared for 2 months after an argument and her contacting my parents (who she had never spoken to before) to say it was over.  I realise now that she was splitting, but the fact of the matter, i didnt realise she was pushing me away and in doing so, reaffirming to her that i would leave her.  I didnt have any of this knowledge up until about 4 weeks ago.

After the 2 months i sent her a hand written letter which she messaged me over whatsapp and she also sent me a letter too, we met up and "Hashed things out"  First hour was her having ago at me, then it all calmed down, went back to hers, had a pizza together, a really long loving hug when i left.  Continued to text daily, met up with her 2 weeks later, stayed over (separate bedrooms) left the following morning for work and continued texting.

Xmas day we speak over the phone and she splits big time and starts having ago at me about me disappearing for 2 months.  I say to her "Clearly this isnt a good time to talk to you so ill call later" then the call dies, she claims i hung up, she was on speakerphone and i didnt have the phone in my hand so i didnt hang up!  A mutual friend of her calls her (call her K the mutual friend) and K said she is my ex pwBPD said to her "He said clearly you have issues with us so i cant be bothered with this / you so its over"  Splitting and Dysregulation, i know!

She sends me some tarot reading thing from Youtube and said "If you ever have it in your heart to tell me why you left me for 2 months i would like to know as its tormenting me"

I replied, this isnt something to be done over the phone or text, when are you free next?  We meet up at hers the Friday after NY day. 

We talk, no aggression but no understanding from her side!  Her telling me that i run away at every hurdle that she throws at me.  I said is there any chance between us and she said no, so i said "then i need to go, but you need to understand that im not leaving to abandon you, im leaving because you said there is no chance, but if you change your mind, please get in touch" and i leave.

Then i get blocked everywhere.

Funny thing is, i didnt know why i did what i did until finding this forum and the books i read.  She pushed me away and i thought thats what she wanted, was for me to leave her, but now i know its just them splitting.

A different mutual friend went to hers this weekend who ill call P.  P called me last night and gave me all the details.  My Ex brought me up and so they discussed a lot.  Ex asked how i was doing and P said ok, but not great, he is still really hurting over you. Ex is still really hurt about the 2 months i disappeared but P said, "What you have to remember is thats in the past and it cant be changed, he is working on himself so much right now, he even said to me the other day he isnt right yet as he fell out with a friend of his as this friend was asking for advice and wouldnt listen so his friend hungup on him because he was telling him things he doesnt like, so you need to know he is doing his best to recognise his flaws and become a better person"

P the also told me that she is frustrated that i went private on Instagram because she couldnt stalk me with her stalker account.  I  went back to public weeks ago, but i dont think ex realises this.  Ex then states to P that she is considering putting her IG account back to public to hope to see if i stalk her on it, something i wont do as i have extremely good emotional control when it comes to this.  So this is why i said i have a glimmer of hope.

I asked P last night if i should hold any hope and to throw me a ball and she said "dont give up, she isnt over you thats for sure" but she also gave me great advice too...  "She said youre a shell of the man that i know and always come to advice for.  Right now you need to get back to who you used to be before you can even think about getting Ex back"

Sorry that was such a massive post, but i needed to get this down on the forum to share my thoughts.  More was shared by P but i dont want to make this reply any longer.

Strategy now is to send her another letter after her birthday which is just after valentines day wishing her a happy birthday but saying i finally know why i did what i did but not tell her why i did it (Felt like she was pushing me away and thats what she wanted) in the hopes she will contact me to discuss.

Thoughts?

Many thanks for reading.

[livednlearned]

I would send a letter with no explanation.

There is no explanation that will solve for her the mystery of the two months because it isn't really about you.

In her mind, there is a script that people abandon her, it's almost like a rejection fantasy. Whether it occurs with you, or with other people, imagined or real, she gets to experience it again and try (this time) to resolve it. Except the new scenarios are based on the original, primary one that pre-dated you. And you can't resolve that one -- she may not ever be able to resolve it either.

So it's:

"Yes, I left. And I came back."

The real issue is her trust. In her, not you. If she cannot trust herself, she cannot trust others. First, she has to recognize that it's her she doesn't trust (to survive an abandonment and still be ok).

There are versions of this much, much more difficult than a two month absence. BPD adult children seek to rehash much more serious abandonments with (for example) their mothers.  Over mom's ex boyfriend, or father, who sexually abused the BPD adult as a child) and learn to say something like, "That happened. Now what? Where do we go from here?"

If you get back with your ex, you'll have to learn to not jump into these holes. It's a version of acceptance (yes, this happened, ouch, it hurt) and change (where do we go from here).

Acceptance and change. Learning to gauge when it's time for more acceptance, less change. Or less acceptance, more change.

Also, don't weaken yourself. If you are a shell of the man you used to be, work on that first. Anything short of that and you will not be in any shape to navigate a BPD relationship. She has virtually no sense of self and needs someone who is strong and confident -- she'll be able to surf on that and when she inevitably digresses, you have to remain that same guy. Strong, confident, sure.

 

[Rev]

I would send a letter with no explanation.

There is no explanation that will solve for her the mystery of the two months because it isn't really about you.

In her mind, there is a script that people abandon her, it's almost like a rejection fantasy. Whether it occurs with you, or with other people, imagined or real, she gets to experience it again and try (this time) to resolve it. Except the new scenarios are based on the original, primary one that pre-dated you. And you can't resolve that one -- she may not ever be able to resolve it either.

So it's:

"Yes, I left. And I came back."

The real issue is her trust. In her, not you. If she cannot trust herself, she cannot trust others. First, she has to recognize that it's her she doesn't trust (to survive an abandonment and still be ok).

There are versions of this much, much more difficult than a two month absence. BPD adult children seek to rehash much more serious abandonments with (for example) their mothers.  Over mom's ex boyfriend, or father, who sexually abused the BPD adult as a child) and learn to say something like, "That happened. Now what? Where do we go from here?"

If you get back with your ex, you'll have to learn to not jump into these holes. It's a version of acceptance (yes, this happened, ouch, it hurt) and change (where do we go from here).

Acceptance and change. Learning to gauge when it's time for more acceptance, less change. Or less acceptance, more change.

Also, don't weaken yourself. If you are a shell of the man you used to be, work on that first. Anything short of that and you will not be in any shape to navigate a BPD relationship. She has virtually no sense of self and needs someone who is strong and confident -- she'll be able to surf on that and when she inevitably digresses, you have to remain that same guy. Strong, confident, sure.

 

This is an excellent post.

[pursuingJoy]

Agree that livednlearned's post is an excellent one! I recall this quote when I'm struggling with trust:
 
“A bird sitting on a tree is never afraid of the branch breaking, because its trust is not on the branch but on its own wings.” ~ Charlie Wardle

[Narza]

"Yes, I left. And I came back."

The real issue is her trust. In her, not you. If she cannot trust herself, she cannot trust others. First, she has to recognize that it's her she doesn't trust (to survive an abandonment and still be ok).

If you get back with your ex, you'll have to learn to not jump into these holes. It's a version of acceptance (yes, this happened, ouch, it hurt) and change (where do we go from here).

Acceptance and change. Learning to gauge when it's time for more acceptance, less change. Or less acceptance, more change.

Also, don't weaken yourself. If you are a shell of the man you used to be, work on that first. Anything short of that and you will not be in any shape to navigate a BPD relationship. She has virtually no sense of self and needs someone who is strong and confident -- she'll be able to surf on that and when she inevitably digresses, you have to remain that same guy. Strong, confident, sure.

Wow, thank you so so much for that advice @livednlearned and backed up with @Rev and @pursuingJoy.

Last night when i read this, i thought to myself, well if i dont send her a letter saying i finally know why i left for two months and not tell her, it would bait her into contacting me, shes very much a "Curiosity killed the cat" type of person and also a bit of an adrenaline junkie (no drugs or self harming mind).

I think i will send a letter just after her birthday with something that i was making for her during the 2 weeks we reconnected in the hopes that this will bait her in with a letter included.

I totally understand what you mean by this. "She has virtually no sense of self and needs someone who is strong and confident -- she'll be able to surf on that and when she inevitably digresses, you have to remain that same guy. Strong, confident, sure."  This was who i was before i met her and before i knew ANY of this information.  Just hearing this last night has changed my whole perspective and mindset and i genuinely feel a much stronger person already, dont get me wrong, i know im not ready yet, but i have 3 more weeks to work on me for me and only me before i send her a letter.

Many thanks once again all!

[jaded7]

As for the other lies, when we last met again, (i didnt have any of this knowledge about BPD at this point unfortunately) it went along the lines of this.  She said that i didnt love her, so i JADEd and said everything that i did in our relationship was for her and love and that i never asked for anything in return, i then proceeded to to justify this by saying that i had invited her back to mine for the weekend a couple of times but she never wanted too and i pointed out that her reply was when i suggested going back to mine was "Why would i go back to yours when i have a place like this?"  She then proceeded to say, "But i had work on the monday"  While we were together, she wasnt working, which i pointed out, then she replied "But there were no trains running so i couldnt get back from yours" and i then pointed out, that there were trains running back then because i had picked our mutual friend up at the train station the following weekend (there were train issues in London recently, but not when we were together).  She then defended her case saying our mutual friend drove down to my ex's, where i then proceeded to say "I know for a fact we picked our friend up at the station because a, i drove to pick her up, b, i dropped her back off, and c, the first thing our friend said to me was ugh, youre all sweaty" (after a hug upon greeting each other, was very hot that weekend and i dont like the heat) and pointed out that my ex laughed!

As soon as she had realised i was right, this was when she immediately changed the subject and blindsided me and went onto another subject.



Many thanks for reading and for your previous replies

This topic so resonates with me, I've read through the whole thread. Just last week she raged at me calling me 'fraud wellness professional", 'bullPLEASE READting her Dad", a "plagiarist" and a LIAR

The lies, the misstatements of what happened or what I said, what she said. I have a very good memory for these things and I write them down after because I'm so baffled and twisted in my head. And they are so clearly wrong, so clearly not true.

When she does that I say "no, that's not true. You did not say that" Then she'll try some more, then completely SWITCH to another topic or distortion when it's clear that I'm right As if she didn't say those things. It's like trying to whack-a-mole and so frustrating. Here are a couple of examples from last week:

After weeks, months of little communication, disappearing over Christmas for 2 weeks, then 3 weeks of not responding to a text I sent, during that time I forgot about an eye surgery she last talked to me about in October. My bad, but I assumed that we'd be, you know, partners communicating. She says "we talked about all through November and December". We absolutely did not, and I told her that. I told her I remember exactly where I was sitting when we last talked about it, the weather outside, etc. BAM...on to the next thing.

During the weeks leading up to Christmas she went on days or weeks long not responding to me, or bread crumbing every few days with "busy". I finally met up with her and told her that it was painful, invalidating and mean to ignore your partner, she then says "I was spending time and talking to friends who understand my life" Therefore, she'd been lying.

She told me she was too busy with the show she was helping out to respond to me for 3 days. I told her that I saw her posting stories on Instagram during the show...clearly she had her phone in her hand, could take pictures and craft and Instagram story. Her response "What, do you want me to call you at 11:00 at night" I say no, that's not what I'm saying. How can you be too busy to simply respond to me but making Instagram stories DURING the show? And off to the next topic.

I point out to her that she yells and criticizes me for things she herself does all the time. She says "like what?" I gently point out that she yells at me and lectures me for not keeping a calendar of things we do or plan and that I cancel on her showing no respect for the relationship (always these things were in her head and we never discussed them), so she forces me to make a calendar WITH her, typing nights and weekends in. Then, she immediately starts cancelling at the last minute nights and weekends we had planned, after I told friends I couldn't do things with them. She totally denies cancelling a weekend. I say she did. She says she had no such weekends available in that time because she had her son. I say she's wrong. Then she says "Oh, I remember that weekend. It's the one you started a argument with me at midnight" (I had said let's go to bed at 10:30, she said she's going home, and I said "but honey, your supposed to spend the night. She said no, I said we calendared it together...she explodes. That's me starting an argument)

This week when pointed that out, she says that "she thought it just meant during the day" (she didn't even spend the days with me). I say, no you remember we wrote in together _______ and Jadeds place together at ____ coffee shop. She responds "Well, it wasn't on my calendar". So it was but meant during the day, then it wasn't at all.

Last year we were driving on the highway and as she pulled into an exit ramp and began to slow down, I undid my seat belt and reached for my water bottle on the floor. She exploded at me at how dangerous this is. I was completely startled and confused and tried to explain that we we on the off ramp and slowing down. When I got back in the car I gently said "I don't know why you have to yell at me". More explosion that lasted about 40 miles. Last week the story was "And you yelled at me in the car. You took your seat belt off 2 miles from the exit to the rest area". I said, that's not true. Off to the next one.

Last one, I promise. I called her at 11:30am the day before we went camping to tell her I'd go shopping for the food. She exploded at me calling me "worthless at shopping" "just offering to cover my ass" and "what do you want, cookies and milk for asking". Later, when really mad at me she says "And you call at 5:00 at night to offer to go shopping for our camping trip THAT day." I corrected her that I called at 11:30 the day BEFORE. She brought that up several times over several months, always reverting to the 5:00 time. The last time I said "Why do you keep changing the facts of this? We've discussed this 3 times now. I really don't understand why you have to repeat that."

Many, many more.