HELP — I’ve unleashed the beast, so to speak part 2

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Mod note: This thread was split from this discussion:https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=343842.0
So here are a couple questions I’d love thoughts on...

1. So he didn’t eat with me/kids yesterday. Made his own food and took it to a little tv cove outside our bedroom (where he watches tv at a 1000 decibels all day/night).  He left all the dishes/cups/glasses. I debated about cleaning up and wasn’t going to, but also didn’t want to leave it and have him break it.  I left his dirty napkins and stuff.

Thoughts?  I realize “things” aren’t so important but I spent a lot of time picking out these glasses and love them. We used the same everything for 25 years but pieces went missing, broke (not him, haha), so replaced a lot of it this winter. I’m willing to risk them being broken if that’s a better message (I don’t mean breaking the glasses, I mean not cleaning up after him...he’ll have to do it all himself when we divorce so should get used to it). LMK what you think.

2. I invited him to dinner tonight (via text to family group) and he didn’t reply/come. This was the stance a month or so ago, invite, he can choose to come or not. Honestly I don’t give a sh!t if he comes or not, I just want to be amenable for divorce proceedings.

This is what has kept me from tossing his prized possessions in today’s garbage pick up. I’m not proud that repaying him in like kind crossed my mind. I jolted back realizing I was NOT going to turn into him. But I thought about it.

3. This may be a good one for FF, who has been in the down and dirty details of this dysfunction, but welcome any and all input. I’ll say it again, I learn so so much from you all!

While on my DV chat today and trying to highlight background (I am not good at concise, anyone notice?), I noted that it had been 8-9 months that he’s just in an almost constant state of agitation-dysregulation. He has left the house 5-6 times, sometimes a night, sometimes 4 nights.

Thinking more about it, it was around this time that my dad went into hospice and then a month later was gone. He hated my dad so I discounted this as a trigger. But H was around when my mom died 30 years ago and often tells me now that he only married me because he felt sorry for me when she died (I’ve also realized I was young and probably clung to him at that time, and started my path to ignoring behavior).

But I’m wondering if some of the intensity is that I really have no one left and he feels so totally responsible for me and he doesn't want to. Doesn’t make a lot of sense but there is a timing issue in common. Could be pure coincidence.

Thanks to anyone willing to share their thoughts...bless you all.

[UBPDHelp]

Mod note: This thread was split from this discussion:https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=343842.0
So here are a couple questions I’d love thoughts on...

1. So he didn’t eat with me/kids yesterday. Made his own food and took it to a little tv cove outside our bedroom (where he watches tv at a 1000 decibels all day/night).  He left all the dishes/cups/glasses. I debated about cleaning up and wasn’t going to, but also didn’t want to leave it and have him break it.  I left his dirty napkins and stuff.

Thoughts?  I realize “things” aren’t so important but I spent a lot of time picking out these glasses and love them. We used the same everything for 25 years but pieces went missing, broke (not him, haha), so replaced a lot of it this winter. I’m willing to risk them being broken if that’s a better message (I don’t mean breaking the glasses, I mean not cleaning up after him...he’ll have to do it all himself when we divorce so should get used to it). LMK what you think.

2. I invited him to dinner tonight (via text to family group) and he didn’t reply/come. This was the stance a month or so ago, invite, he can choose to come or not. Honestly I don’t give a sh!t if he comes or not, I just want to be amenable for divorce proceedings.

This is what has kept me from tossing his prized possessions in today’s garbage pick up. I’m not proud that repaying him in like kind crossed my mind. I jolted back realizing I was NOT going to turn into him. But I thought about it.

3. This may be a good one for FF, who has been in the down and dirty details of this dysfunction, but welcome any and all input. I’ll say it again, I learn so so much from you all!

While on my DV chat today and trying to highlight background (I am not good at concise, anyone notice?), I noted that it had been 8-9 months that he’s just in an almost constant state of agitation-dysregulation. He has left the house 5-6 times, sometimes a night, sometimes 4 nights.

Thinking more about it, it was around this time that my dad went into hospice and then a month later was gone. He hated my dad so I discounted this as a trigger. But H was around when my mom died 30 years ago and often tells me now that he only married me because he felt sorry for me when she died (I’ve also realized I was young and probably clung to him at that time, and started my path to ignoring behavior).

But I’m wondering if some of the intensity is that I really have no one left and he feels so totally responsible for me and he doesn't want to. Doesn’t make a lot of sense but there is a timing issue in common. Could be pure coincidence.

Thanks to anyone willing to share their thoughts...bless you all.

[Cat Familiar]

My ex broke things occasionally. Then a few years later, he began punching me in the stomach, grabbing my throat, and knocking me to the ground. BPD rage is not easily charted on a linear time scale. If he's angry enough to break things, you could be next.

[UBPDHelp]

Thanks Cat.  Sorry you went through that. I recognize that this is a possibility.

I am keeping my distance and monitoring, but know he could flip without warning.

It feels a bit riskier to go to a shelter with 4 kids with pandemic right now. That could end up being safer.

Thank you again for sharing your experience. I’m sure that was devastating and I’m so glad you are safe and in a better place.

I long soo much to go to bed happy and safe and wake up knowing I’m not in for a day of trying to keep the peace and selling my soul.

[Turkish]

My ex broke things occasionally. Then a few years later, he began punching me in the stomach, grabbing my throat, and knocking me to the ground. BPD rage is not easily charted on a linear time scale. If he's angry enough to break things, you could be next.

My ex broke things a couple of times (my fault, of course). Years later, she punched her husband hard enough to leave a bruise on the entire top of her hand. She put her hip into it, like I showed her in boxing.

[I Am Redeemed]

My ex broke things, as well. Phones, mostly. Ripped up some if my clothes. Threw things. Threw cigarettes at me.

Over seven years the violence escalated into spitting on me, pushing, hitting, punching, and strangling me. At least twice I lost consciousness and was surprised when I woke up alive. I suffered a broken collarbone, jaw, and both hands.

I also lost custody of my children (all but the youngest, long story) for remaining in the relationship despite the abuse.

Two years after leaving my ex, and he is now in another relationship that is fraught with violence. His mother tells me about it. She's to the point where she cringes if his number shows up on her phone.

[UBPDHelp]

Hi Turkish,

Yikes, that does not sound good.

I’m not sure I know your story...if you’re up for it, I’d be interested and what  the proverbial last straw was for you.

On the divorce board (I think) is someone who was leaving but is now trapped 24/7 with their uBPD person because of the pandemic and half laughing/half crying at the irony. This is how I feel. But, I am also afraid I will be too scared to leave because that has been my (self-imposed) reality thus far. Thing is I’m just tired of this. And, I’m holding out hope that the flip side of the bad right now is that the time alone to think will allow me to better prepare and some amazing career opportunity will happen and I can move along the way when stay home, stay in place is over.

I have hope for better.

We are just outside one of the big hot zones. My oldest worked in the hot zone and the weekend before it went rampant,  I just had a feeling that he shouldn’t go in. We made a family call to take a sick day and then ultimately let his job know he wouldn’t be in until things settled down. That was 3 weeks ago and we still have not peaked. My uncle, who I haven’t really spoken to in 10+ years reached out. He’s in the middle of US and they’re still kind of doing normal business.

My point is simply that where I am, it is really dangerous to be out and about, which sux immensely, and is complicating my current circumstance. I could fend for me and might be willing to risk it, but 4 kiddos to consider and vigilant distance for now seems safer. I am prepared to go if that changes.

Regardless, I’m sorry you’ve had to endure discord. Kudos to you for getting out.  Thanks for sharing.

[UBPDHelp]

Hi I Am Redeemed,

Thank you for sharing your story. I know I have read it before, but guess I had not connected the dots.

That sounds beyond horrendous. Clearly you survived in part so you could share your talents with others.

H has stayed away. I can hear him laughing at the shows he’s watching. I am a horrible person and it feels like if I stay away he feels relieved he doesn’t have to deal with me. He promised when this is over he will be gone.

I called the DV hotline and it was helpful. Soon, I will place the calls to the high conflict attorneys to get a feel for what to expect. I reached out to my sister, about pandemic, and she was receptive even though we’ve been estranged for years. I will see where that goes just for a possible ear. She may not be interested.

Anyway, I’m sorry you had such a horrible H.  Success stories are what I need know so thank you for sharing.

[Turkish]

I'm glad that you called the helpline UBPDHelp and that you felt them helpful.  You're in a risky situation, but fleeing with no plan isn't a good tack. Stay safe and plan. Though maybe scary right now, keep a distance from his fuse.

Come up with a safety plan: https://bpdfamily.com/pdfs/safety-first-dv-1.pdf

Safety planning should occur regardless if you are remaining in an abusive relationship, preparing to leave the relationship, already out of the relationship, or deciding to return to it. It is relatively easy to do, and if you ever need it, you will be glad it was in place.

This might also be helpful: DV Discussion for Women

I saw post about how you felt.  You're not alone here 

You're in tough times and the virus thing only adds to this. Keep you and your kids safe (come up with that plan, however short), don't make rash decisions that could trigger him... this isn't victim shaming, it's being smart, follow whatever the help line advised you to do.  I imagine it's so much more difficult to deal with this given your kids!

Please keep us updated on what's going on as well 

Turkish

[babyducks]

good job UBH -  I know it was hard to call the DV line but I am so very glad you did.    It was a brave thing to do.   I think you really want to collect allies and resources right now.    You may never need them but having support available is critical.    Cultivate your uncle, your sister, the lawyer, the DV line,  anyone who can help support you in any way is good!

I’m more disappointed in myself. He’s sick and I should have done better.

I was disappointed when I first got here too.   I thought I should have done things better.    a couple of times I handled things so badly I did make things worse.    here is what I have come to learn for myself.    No One,   literally zero percent of people, No One comes equipped to handle a serious mental illness.    No One.   Don't be so hard on yourself.   You are making great strides forward.   You are taking on difficult things.    No One does this perfectly.   Give yourself credit for the effort you are making.

1.  Thoughts?  I realize “things” aren’t so important but I spent a lot of time picking out these glasses and love them. We used the same everything for 25 years but pieces went missing, broke (not him, haha), so replaced a lot of it this winter. I’m willing to risk them being broken if that’s a better message (I don’t mean breaking the glasses, I mean not cleaning up after him...he’ll have to do it all himself when we divorce so should get used to it). LMK what you think.

I am going to try and redirect this a little bit.    I would encourage a shift in mindset from "that’s a better message"... to "this is better for me and the kids".    Don't attempt to deliver a message to him... he won't receive it well.    Make decisions on what is better for you, the kids and your safety.     what do you think?

But I’m wondering if some of the intensity is that I really have no one left and he feels so totally responsible for me and he doesn't want to. Doesn’t make a lot of sense but there is a timing issue in common.

I seriously doubt this.    Narcissists don't think this way.   Narcissists do not believe they have responsibility for/to anyone else.     Everyone else should have responsibility for caring for them.   Narcissists see people more as objects that meet their needs or don't meet their needs.

I am keeping my distance and monitoring, but know he could flip without warning.

This is very true.    DV usually flashes over in a matter of seconds.    Mine did.    Long back story but after a period of dysfunction and conflict an argument with my Ex flashed over and I broke my hand requiring surgery to repair.     at that point i knew the tools,  I knew enough to leave the argument,.. to walk away... I was on my way out the door... and didn't quite make it in time.    my point being in a crisis you have seconds or minutes to react and no time to carefully think things through.   keep up the vigilant distance.

H has stayed away. I can hear him laughing at the shows he’s watching. I am a horrible person and it feels like if I stay away he feels relieved he doesn’t have to deal with me. He promised when this is over he will be gone.

I am going to carefully (and hopefully gently) invalidate the part highlighted above.     This is not true.   And this is not accurate.     Words matter.    Words create Worlds.     We need to be very careful how we use them.    You are not a horrible person.    This isn't valid even in jest.      'He believes I am horrible person and it feels like he is relieved if I stay away.'  may be valid.   

can you see how "I am horrible person"  is participating in his dysfunction?    even if the participation is internal and insidious ?

How are things today?   How are you feeling?

'ducks

[UBPDHelp]

I'm glad that you called the helpline UBPDHelp and that you felt them helpful.  You're in a risky situation, but fleeing with no plan isn't a good tack. Stay safe and plan. Though maybe scary right now, keep a distance from his fuse.

Come up with a safety plan: https://bpdfamily.com/pdfs/safety-first-dv-1.pdf

Safety planning should occur regardless if you are remaining in an abusive relationship, preparing to leave the relationship, already out of the relationship, or deciding to return to it. It is relatively easy to do, and if you ever need it, you will be glad it was in place.

Yes, I feel like for now I am choosing the lessor of two evils. Unprecedented times. Feel like I should have done this earlier, but I wasn’t ready. I have been working to pay off the little debt I have (credit card), improve my credit score and secure a better (now any) job. Then the stress of pandemic hit him (and everyone) and added to his level of dysregulation — breaking things is not his usual MO. This is NOT an excuse, just simply the reason.

I have worked on the safety plan. I am getting my things ready if we should need to go. I have a lot of ways out of the house. We have text to 911.

I saw post about how you felt.  You're not alone here  

You're in tough times and the virus thing only adds to this. Keep you and your kids safe (come up with that plan, however short), don't make rash decisions that could trigger him... this isn't victim shaming, it's being smart, follow whatever the help line advised you to do.  I imagine it's so much more difficult to deal with this given your kids!

Thank you for the hug and reminder I’m not alone. It sure feels it more and more but I’m a positive person and try to find the good and look for solutions, so I am desperately trying here.

For now, he’s happily keeping the distance. We were both in the kitchen for about a minute yesterday (I think he thought I was out, but was still cleaning up).  We both did our thing and didn’t say a word.

I am concerned that he may shift his mood the more time that goes by as we haven’t gone weeks without speaking before (we’re at day two right now, just thinking about the month ahead when we likely won’t leave house). So I will continue to monitor.

Thank you again for your support.

[UBPDHelp]

Hi BabyDucks,

good job UBH -  I know it was hard to call the DV line but I am so very glad you did.    It was a brave thing to do.   I think you really want to collect allies and resources right now.    You may never need them but having support available is critical.    Cultivate your uncle, your sister, the lawyer, the DV line,  anyone who can help support you in any way is good!

Thank you. This sounds a bit nutty, but I believe there are often signs all around us. We don’t always see them. And certainly they don’t solve problems, but recently as I’ve pondered my life, there will be a random reference to say my home state on the news (would be no reason to be really) or I was doing an online puzzle and the name of the university my dad taught at was in it. These happened when I was lost in thought about my situation and I just felt it was God sending me a sign (I’m not delusional, I promise). But, for my uncle to randomly text me yesterday felt like a sign. I reached out to my sister. We had been having business emails re: my dad but since he passed, not much reason to. I just tested to see how they were doing and her response was as I suspected, way friendlier than H has said she would be. He also hates her and has told me a relationship with her would be the end of us because she knows my past. I mean she may have guessed, but we never discussed. My past is one previous bf that I slept with before I met my H.

I was disappointed when I first got here too.   I thought I should have done things better.    a couple of times I handled things so badly I did make things worse.    here is what I have come to learn for myself.    No One,   literally zero percent of people, No One comes equipped to handle a serious mental illness.    No One.   Don't be so hard on yourself.   You are making great strides forward.   You are taking on difficult things.    No One does this perfectly.   Give yourself credit for the effort you are making.

Thank you for sharing.  I’m sorry you felt this way, but selfishly appreciate knowing I’m not alone in my feelings.

I am going to try and redirect this a little bit.    I would encourage a shift in mindset from "that’s a better message"... to "this is better for me and the kids".    Don't attempt to deliver a message to him... he won't receive it well.    Make decisions on what is better for you, the kids and your safety.     what do you think?

This is perfect. Exactly the feeling I had but couldn’t explain. I definitely think not setting him off because I leave it a mess is better, especially with your reminder he’s not getting any message anyway. Thank you.

I seriously doubt this.    Narcissists don't think this way.   Narcissists do not believe they have responsibility for/to anyone else.     Everyone else should have responsibility for caring for them.   Narcissists see people more as objects that meet their needs or don't meet their needs.

This is interesting. He has complained that he has to take care of everyone from his mom to siblings to me and to his kids. My oldest is semi-independent but not quite and sometimes that pi$$es him off. I took that as being narcissistic in that he can only see how other people’s problems affected him. A little I understood that it was hard, but also what you signed up for. This is not the only narcissistic behavior I see, just the responsibility reaction one. And he definitely thinks I am here to cater to his needs and to know what those are without him saying.

**I kid you not, National morning show just mentioned my home state — nothing special, could have been anywhere.

This is very true.    DV usually flashes over in a matter of seconds.    Mine did.    Long back story but after a period of dysfunction and conflict an argument with my Ex flashed over and I broke my hand requiring surgery to repair.     at that point i knew the tools,  I knew enough to leave the argument,.. to walk away... I was on my way out the door... and didn't quite make it in time.    my point being in a crisis you have seconds or minutes to react and no time to carefully think things through.   keep up the vigilant distance.

Thanks for sharing. I am sorry you went through this. I understand and am yet still terrified of what that trigger will be.

I am going to carefully (and hopefully gently) invalidate the part highlighted above.     This is not true.   And this is not accurate.     Words matter.    Words create Worlds.     We need to be very careful how we use them.    You are not a horrible person.    This isn't valid even in jest.      'He believes I am horrible person and it feels like he is relieved if I stay away.'  may be valid.  

can you see how "I am horrible person"  is participating in his dysfunction?    even if the participation is internal and insidious ?

 

You know me well.  I was stating what he believes, not what I do. I know I am not horrible. I have my share of flaws but I have a lot of good things about me, too. Guess I was so tired when I was typing I didn’t read it the way I wrote it. Thank you for clarifying for me.

How are things today?   How are you feeling?

He sleeps til about noon so quiet for now. One of the reasons I get up early is for the peace and quiet. He hates that I do, maybe he doesn’t want me to clear my head?  He likes to stay up super late too, which I don’t do. This also makes him mad. Earlier in our marriage it was not so exaggerated and he would more closely follow a more traditional schedule. He is entitled to do what he wants if he’s not hurting anyone — and, I believe, fulfilling his husband/father/provider roles. He chose them so at the very least should be fair when deciding he doesn’t want to do them any more.

But, all in all, I am doing okay. Feeling slight empowerment and hope and some excitement of future prospects. I’m super hung up on a job because financial insecurity is the absolute biggest reason I have not left, coupled with long periods of “normal/great” times that I start to doubt the need to change.

Work in progress.

Thank you again for being the interpreter for my questions.    It is so appreciated.

Hope you’re well!

[UBPDHelp]

Just a quick update on today.

For whatever reason H stayed in our room (I haven’t been sleeping there) until mid afternoon. I could hear him moving about a bit so knew he was “okay”. He ducked out for 5 mins to get a drink and went right back in.

Not watching tv in the alcove, my bet is he will tonight but maybe not.

I honestly don’t know what to make of it. I do worry a bit that he’s getting himself worked up that I’m not asking him to get things back to “normal”  .

I think he’s told me one too many times that it’s over. I’m just not  going to ask to bring his dysregulations back into my life (more than I have to). He doesn’t want to be married to me, why should I be trying?  So in that regard, I’m hoping he’s just enjoying his “peace” away from me. I’m okay with that. And he’s probably chatting some poor girl from his past telling her how awful I am and plotting his next victim (sorry for being snarky, pretty sure he’s been doing some of this kind of thing, but idk for sure).

How concerned should I be that he’s not eating regular meals/much at all?  He’s a big boy and can get his own food but I know I get hangry so want to be aware if this might make him worse. I realize know one knows, just welcome thoughts.

Hope you’re all doing well!

[Cat Familiar]

You are likely unaware of what in your behavior triggers him, but I’ll make a guess that much of your concern and kindness is expressed in a way where he feels like you are mothering him, and he does not like it.

He is an adult, responsible for meeting his own needs for food. If he chooses not to eat with the family, that’s his choice.

I understand your concern that he might be getting hangry. However, I think it’s likely that if you try to intervene on his behalf, that will almost guarantee an angry response.

You’ve spent way too much of your life focusing on his thoughts and reactions. What can you occupy yourself with so that you won’t continue doing that?

[UBPDHelp]

Hi Cat,

You are right — I have no idea what I do that triggers him.  Generally I get it, but there are nuances for the nuances with him, that it’s a virtual minefield.

Agree, he doesn’t like to be mothered (is it because he also hates his mother, but feels compelled to take care of her?). But, he does expect his laundry done, clean up after him, etc.  Invisible lines.

Way too much time! Way too much!  I don’t really care if he eats, doesn’t eat, I am just a bit on edge if he could lose control in a full house, so when he starts doing things different from what he was doing with no discernible reason, just want to make sure it’s not concerning.

Other than my repeated fear of not being able to support myself right now, I’ve managed a few minor daydreams — what it would be like for me and my kiddos to wake up in a teeny tiny place and not worry about getting yelled at about who knows what. I’m excited for simple things and I long for peace and love.

Cat, you and everyone have been so good on here. Calling me out to refocus as many times as I needed it and helped me gain perspective. It is invaluable.

I’m a long way from not needing to bounce ideas and get feedback (sorry), but I am indeed getting stronger.

Thank you.

[Cat Familiar]

Can you see the difference between being concerned about his food intake versus doing his laundry and cleaning up after him?

It’s very personal compared to a more servant-like role of meeting his needs for clean clothes and tidying up his messes.

And why are you doing his laundry?

[UBPDHelp]

Hi Cat,

I admit, the lines are blurry for me. I’ve mentioned that I have zero feel for where normal is anymore.

Re: laundry, I have been a SAHM for most of our married life.  I’ve had at least a part-time job the whole time.  When my dad died last fall, I stopped working the job I had b/c it was 40+ hours and became too demanding — I’m sure my (unsupported) grief made that all the more challenging. I just started searching again for something better in mid February.

So, since I was SAHM and he was breadwinner, I have taken care of most of the laundry, cleaning, meals — household chores.

I’ve had discussion with FF in another thread with the exercise of how much I do for him, that he could do for himself. It’s a lot. But under the circumstances (mostly everyone stuck here) I don’t think it’s wise to upset the apple cart, so to speak.

Would you suggest I slough off the things he can do himself?

[formflier]

For me...I'm kinda the SAHD.  Plus I like doing laundry.

If people appreciate it...it gets done.  The second my wife complains.  I stop doing hers.  She  eventually comes around and says thanks.

I haven't had a complaint in months. 

So..how do I distill this into advice.  It's not what you do but what you do in the face of criticism, contempt, etc etc. 

Make sense?

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Hi FF,

Yep.  He has occasionally made comments that I am not his mom. Mostly around food — which I never connected until it was brought up the other day. I’m an emotional eater (can you imagine what the last 5 years have done to me?), so I always took his comments about food more to do with me losing 20 pounds. BUT, after a few closely stated “you’re not my mom” I did stop picking up after him and doing his laundry. It took about a week for him to figure it out.

So, right now I certainly feel like a single guy has to do this for himself, but I am also cognizant that I don’t want to escalate anything. I’ve just laundered essentials and left them where he could find them.

So..how do I distill this into advice.  It's not what you do but what you do in the face of criticism, contempt, etc etc.  

Make sense?

Yes, it makes sense. I’m not great at the right response in the moment, but I am learning.

Ultimately I feel like I wouldn’t have to try this hard with most people, and if I did step on their toes/chose the wrong word, I’d be afforded the opportunity to correct/apologize. I may just not be equipped to handle this.

Thanks FF for spelling it out for me! 

How could you ever enjoy laundry?  Someday I’ll tell you about the time one of my kiddos left a small pack of crayons in their pocket after vacay. Loads of laundry and I didn’t catch it...everything was rainbow colored ...and crayon doesn’t come out when it melts on in the dryer.

[Turkish]

Focusing on the laundry is a tactical issue.  Focus on the plan to be safe and what's coming next. Strategy.  Taking issue with this might trigger him now.  Everybody: let's focus on the bigger issue, even though the talking about the laundry is validating (and I agree that a grown man can do his own laundry).

This is about your safety Number 1. And a plan.  If nothing else, a plan to stay safe for you and your children.

[babyducks]

For whatever reason H stayed in our room (I haven’t been sleeping there) until mid afternoon. I could hear him moving about a bit so knew he was “okay”. He ducked out for 5 mins to get a drink and went right back in.


How concerned should I be that he’s not eating regular meals/much at all?  He’s a big boy and can get his own food but I know I get hangry so want to be aware if this might make him worse. I realize know one knows, just welcome thoughts.

here is what I am thinking.     I think he is attempting to self soothe.   Like the tv shows on repeat.   i think he is isolating in an attempt to self soothe.   I would let him do it and not try to interact.   in these unusual times of social distancing I would let him take the lead to protect your safety and that of the kids.     I wouldn't worry about the eating.     but if he comes out to the kitchen I would give him a wide wide berth.    I would give him a veneer of normalcy in these stressful times.    don't challenge him.    right now.

'ducks

[UBPDHelp]

Thanks Turkish,

I agree.  I would like to maintain peace and distance so I can plan my path forward. Add being solely responsible for obtaining food, feeding family, figuring out what bills to pay (when breadwinner stopped working and won’t communicate re: finances), home schooling the kids and otherwise making sure kiddos are emotionally and physically safe and I definitely have my hands full.

I think that’s the reason I’m bouncing my every thought out... just can’t prioritize in my head and everyone here helps me do that — and is wholly aware of the impact with the added BPD dynamic.

Anyway, it is my goal to keep things as peaceful as possible, plan a short term strategy (including if we have to leave), and then long term.

Thank you for your help.

[UBPDHelp]

Hi BabyDucks,

Thank you. I agree he is doing some sort of self soothing. As my thoughts bounce around everywhere I also fear he is stewing and convincing himself more and more that I am the enemy because I’m not trying to resolve.

I won’t worry about him eating. He did venture out late last night and got something but immediately reverted back into our room. I stayed as far away as I could.

I’m just confused why he came out and watched tv in the little alcove two days ago. My son watched tv with him some and they chatted. H was laughing and being gregarious (his voice carries).  But then yesterday he only came out 2 times for about a total of 4 minutes, if that. He spoke to none of us, not even text.

I don’t want him to turn his attention on any of the kids so I’m just slightly fearful he’ll direct at my son because he avoided him as well now. I may be reading too much into it, but just don’t want to miss any signs.

Lastly, he seems to be showering everyday but he has put on the same exact clothes for at least a week and a half/2 weeks.  They are dirty and noticeably so. I was actually shocked the day I touched him and he swung around. Any thoughts on this?  Depression?

And agree...trying to maintain a business as usual demeanor.

Thank you so much. 

[babyducks]

He did venture out late last night and got something but immediately reverted back into our room. I stayed as far away as I could.

  But then yesterday he only came out 2 times for about a total of 4 minutes, if that. .

Lastly, he seems to be showering everyday but he has put on the same exact clothes for at least a week and a half/2 weeks.  They are dirty and noticeably so.

Let's explore this a little bit.     I don't want to add any stress to your situation; so I want to be very clear I am going to explore something that may or MAY NOT be important.    My Ex does/did experience psychotic breaks where she had hallucinations and delusions.    The hallucinations were usually she 'heard' messages in the wind.     My mother Z"l could and did become catatonic.     having been exposed I am more likely to see the symptoms of mental illness than the average bear.    doesn't mean I am right.     

Has he ever done anything like this before?    Has he ever been diagnosed with any mental health issues like depression before?    Take any medication?

Anyone in the family ever been diagnosed?   Upstream you mentioned his mother who went through a rough patch and then recovered.     Did she receive help of any kind?

Do you have a regular primary care physician?    if so, what's that relationship like?     has he been seen recently?    does he take any recreational drugs?

I would still let him try to resolve this on his own.      but reassess that if anything changes.

'ducks

[UBPDHelp]

Let's explore this a little bit.     I don't want to add any stress to your situation; so I want to be very clear I am going to explore something that may or MAY NOT be important.    My Ex does/did experience psychotic breaks where she had hallucinations and delusions.    The hallucinations were usually she 'heard' messages in the wind.     My mother Z"l could and did become catatonic.     having been exposed I am more likely to see the symptoms of mental illness than the average bear.    doesn't mean I am right.      

Thanks BabyDucks.  I understand you don’t know for sure — I’ve known him for 30 years and still can’t figure it out.

You will not stress me out or offend me. The more I know, the better equipped I am to figure out what to do.

Has he ever done anything like this before?    Has he ever been diagnosed with any mental health issues like depression before?    Take any medication?

Never to this extent. He is a germaphob and the pandemic definitely put him on edge.

He will never seek help. Ever. Believes T just cause problems.

But, he has said here and there he is depressed. He hates his job and when there’s stress added, especially work stress, he’ll say he’ll step in front of a train or jump off a building. I’ve talked to him about it on the few occasions he’s said things like that and he says he’s just conveying how unhappy he is but wouldn’t do that. He’s said it in front of the kids a time or two.

I’ve tried to help him redirect to action items to change what is making him unhappy but he won’t do anything. If I send him a job posting I think he would like (I’m searching for me already), he finds some reason why he wouldn’t get it and won’t even try. And to top it off gets upset with me that I don’t know what he’s qualified for. He has an advanced degree and 20+ years of experience.

He does not take any medication. Only OTC pain relievers on very rare occasions.

Anyone in the family ever been diagnosed?   Upstream you mentioned his mother who went through a rough patch and then recovered.     Did she receive help of any kind?

No diagnoses to my knowledge. His father had a rough childhood and probably some abandonment (H’s grandmother might have had some mental issue but was long gone when I came into picture so I’m not sure).  H’s dad left the family and his mom went into strange place, some to be expected. H was grown but siblings still in home. H cut his dad and dad’s family out.

His mom didn’t receive any therapy. She dove into church, which I guess worked for her. She’s around and mostly fine, but still has mil moments.

Do you have a regular primary care physician?    if so, what's that relationship like?     has he been seen recently?    does he take any recreational drugs?

We both do. Different ones. Both relationships are good. He was due for annual (this week!), but it got moved to July now.

No recreational drugs. Occasional beer, like 1-2/month at most.

I would still let him try to resolve this on his own.      but reassess that if anything changes.

Thank you. I am staying away, if for no other reason than that my presence is almost certain to make things worse.

** I mentioned this in another thread some time ago so I want to mention here since this is the “topic”.

I have had a handful of times H will have a dream and swear it is real. Usually has to do with me being a slut. It doesn’t happen often, and he doesn’t quite admit it. It’s more like he can’t determine what is real from dream. But I’d say 4-5 times maybe.

I also think he does this with tv/movies.  He projects characters feelings and makes them mine. I can give you examples if you want.  I think he gets a lot of social cues from movies, something I’ve noticed.

The most notable incident, however, was one night when we were coming home from an unfamiliar place in a big city and ended in a bad neighborhood (I mean bad) and he basically started freaking out and crying. He was asking me to help him with directions but then yelling at me when I did (I got it he was stressed). We made it home, it was late, and in the morning he told me he was freaking out because he thought he ran someone over. He didn’t. Wasn’t even a bump or a thud or anything. I had to reassure him over and over that this didn’t happen. That was about a year ago. Only time I can say that his delusion was a thought as opposed to a feeling, if that makes sense.

I haven’t seen something like this since. A lot of questioning intentions, etc.,but not something happened that really didn’t.

One thing I am curious, what part of my post took you to this?  The not coming out all of a sudden, the dirty clothes?

Thank you...ever grateful for your help and patience!

Hope you’re well.

[babyducks]

One thing I am curious, what part of my post took you to this?  The not coming out all of a sudden, the dirty clothes?

Hello again UBH -

well I am not really sure what took me to this train of thought...  

I guess it was a vague idea of trying to draw some lines around what is 'normal'   and what is 'not normal'.     I think most of us end up here with the deeply ingrained idea that our partners are 'normal'  and that all they need is some help or encouragement to return to more typical behavior.   I also think that's incorrect.   that really under plays the illness part of the disorder.

Friday I was on a Zoom event with my Ex for an hour and 15 minutes.    we both had legitimate reasons to be there but still ... BLECK.     I will say however I did notice how much of her behavior and interactions were not neuro typical.

   I will encourage you to widen/broaden your perspective on what range of behaviors are possible.     It seems from what you have written (correct me if I am wrong) that your husband hit a down spell about 9 months ago and has not been able to work his way out of it.   I really hope he does.    That he is more able to normalize his behavior.    I would also suggest you consider some type of professional support for yourself.   From some one who has the credentials to say if this is depression or something else.

'ducks

[formflier]

UBPDhelp

You are doing a good job reading, thinking through and asking questions.  Keep it up!

I'm a big fan of using the word "deliberate". 

I think you should begin a deliberate effort to expand and deepen your support system.

Perhaps that's means calling the DV person/line back and asking follow up questions.  Keep digging and questioning details.  Those answers will help you feel more empowered and reduce the fear of taking important steps.

That's very different than actually taking the steps. 

A critical piece of my support system is a PhD level psychologist.  She's had many years of experience dealing with PDs and have provided me with precious guidance about how many actions/inaction is likely to influence my wife.  She also has helped me "deal with my own stuff".

What would you think of having a professional "on your team" or "on your side" as you walk through this?

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Hi BabyDucks,

Thank you.

Friday I was on a Zoom event with my Ex for an hour and 15 minutes.    we both had legitimate reasons to be there but still ... BLECK.     I will say however I did notice how much of her behavior and interactions were not neuro typical.

That doesn’t sound fun. I’ve had similar when you take a step back for a while and then interact again, you notice things you hadn’t before but were probably always there.

FYI, bleck is a favorite of mine, even if my autocorrect doesn’t recognize it!

  I will encourage you to widen/broaden your perspective on what range of behaviors are possible.     It seems from what you have written (correct me if I am wrong) that your husband hit a down spell about 9 months ago and has not been able to work his way out of it.   I really hope he does.    That he is more able to normalize his behavior.    I would also suggest you consider some type of professional support for yourself.   From some one who has the credentials to say if this is depression or something else.

Yes, about 9 months ago he has just been more on the down side than up. He placates with things he think will make things better — vacation, sex, holidays — but the usual hiccups happen and it turns into gloom and doom. Ultimately, I think when our oldest got out of college, he wanted to change jobs but couldn’t. Some reasons he can’t are legitimate, some are not, and some is his failure to even try (which is unusual for him).  Most of the reasons can be overcome with time and effort, and what can’t could be adapted likely to still work. I believe him feeling “stuck” at work is the cause of his decline. And I suspect b/c he can’t change that, he’s moved his attention to me. I am not perfect, but I am a pretty darn good wife (outside this time period, now I just seem to make things worse) and mother.

I’ve tried to help him a hundred ways but none of them are right. It very much feels like no matter what I do, it’s wrong. And, this current situation stems from me finishing the tv show I was watching. I guess he was disgusted at me before because he writhed away from me and told me it was over. I think from pandemic stress on top of job and I am the target/responsible for those feelings.

I will look into speaking with someone. Going to be hard with everyone home but maybe if I can get an early appointment.

Thanks for your help.

[UBPDHelp]

Hi FF,

Thank you.

I think you should begin a deliberate effort to expand and deepen your support system.

Perhaps that's means calling the DV person/line back and asking follow up questions.  Keep digging and questioning details.  Those answers will help you feel more empowered and reduce the fear of taking important steps.

That's very different than actually taking the steps.

Agree.  I am thinking through options, both short and long term.

What I hope happens changes and seems to correlate to how I’m feeling (guess that’s true for everyone  ). What I wish very likely can’t happen and when adding the boundaries I need, unwillingness to try (on his part I can all but guarantee).

So I am very much in the pondering stage. And fear of unknown, financial dependency/insecurity tugs at me strongly. Where is the balance of knowing that’s wrong and being irresponsible (esp. with kids to consider)?

A critical piece of my support system is a PhD level psychologist.  She's had many years of experience dealing with PDs and have provided me with precious guidance about how many actions/inaction is likely to influence my wife.  She also has helped me "deal with my own stuff".

What would you think of having a professional "on your team" or "on your side" as you walk through this?

I’m open to this. I know there are things/interactions I could do better, but it feels insurmountable to achieve with the vast number of triggers he has, many unavoidable. And he won’t get help.

For instance, he’s triggered by my past. There is not much there but I believe he has exaggerated it. I will no longer discuss. But he watches tv shows/movies directed at the first time ( his biggest hang up — one time and all value is gone, except for him.  And what about the several gfs he had and then discarded — tremendous double standard).  He’ll watch them and then his mood shifts. Most times he knows it’s part of the movie and he chooses to watch it with me. I can see him visibly tense.

So, can a T help with that? 

I’m fine to talk to someone who can help me, I just don’t know if fixing my interactions can ultimately help our situation.

Thoughts?

Thanks FF for the continued support and discussion. It helps.

[formflier]

I’ve tried to help him a hundred ways but none of them are right. It very much feels like no matter what I do, it’s wrong. And, this current situation stems from me finishing the tv show I was watching. I guess he was disgusted at me before because he writhed away from me and told me it was over. I think from pandemic stress on top of job and I am the target/responsible for those feelings.
 

I'm going to gently push back on this.  This seems to be "old you" thinking spilling out. 

If you have tried to help him a hundred different ways...your job is to make sure it's not 101.  Especially if you both agree it's not working. 

The less you "distract" him for solving his own problems, the more of a chance he can solve them.

You should own VERY LITTLE responsibility for his outbursts.  Watching TV/finishing TV in no way justifies (fill in the blank). 

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Hi FF,

Thank you for the reply.

I'm going to gently push back on this.  This seems to be "old you" thinking spilling out. 

If you have tried to help him a hundred different ways...your job is to make sure it's not 101.  Especially if you both agree it's not working. 

The less you "distract" him for solving his own problems, the more of a chance he can solve them.

You should own VERY LITTLE responsibility for his outbursts.  Watching TV/finishing TV in no way justifies (fill in the blank). 

Yes, I agree.  My expression that I was responsible for his feelings was meant as an illustration of what I believe HE thinks; I didn’t mean I thought it. Sorry if that was confusing...and hear I thought you were a mind reader  ! Jk.

We were a “team” until he began coming apart. We would always bounce thoughts/ideas off each other so sometimes the lines blur. I still tried to be supportive of his stressors. I wish I’d known tools and boundaries and yet many of his decisions/responsibilities impact the rest of us so it seemed worthy of “helping”. Those lines are distinctly blurry.

So, no, I do NOT think me finishing my show and declining to hand over the remote to him entitles him to have an outburst. His feelings are his responsibility. I said no quite politely — even after he said we were over and started verbally attacking me with his old standby (I walked away). His response was to demand, yell and break things. Not a normal response.

Thinking back, I just want to share, there have been a handful of times we’ve gotten in a circular argument, say at the dinner table, always something stupid like why the milk isn’t on the table. Round and round (who could think that question would illicit the merry-go-round?  Only someone who knows BPD).  I would get frustrated, say we weren’t going anywhere with this and leave the room. He would always make comment that I was deficient for walking away. How many times I’ve said/thought I can’t keep beating my head against the same wall.

Anyway, I guess I was doing some protective measures w/o knowing it. Just not the right way or consistently.

I also have to wonder if the everyday belittling is done at meals b/c he knows I’m less likely to push back in front of the kids.

I guess I’m at the point I need to take another deep breath and refocus.

I hope you’re doing well.  Thank you.