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How to communicate after a contentious divorce... Following a contentious divorce and custody battle, there are often high emotion and tensions between the parents. Research shows that constant and chronic conflict between the parents negatively impacts the children. The children sense their parents anxiety in their voice, their body language and their parents behavior. Here are some suggestions from Dean Stacer on how to avoid conflict.
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Author Topic: Wife refuses to get help  (Read 546 times)
Nowisthetime1

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« on: April 26, 2020, 09:44:14 PM »

To whom It May Concern,

Me and my wife are seperated. She refuses to get help. I don’t want to get a divorce but I can’t make her get help. She’s been sleeping around a lot. Now I cheated first by kissing another woman. I’ve apologized offered to go to counseling and this has been about 2 years ago now. In 2 years she’s had 9 jobs. She said she’s sick but doesnt want to do anything about it. Hey What can I do to help her?

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ForeverDad
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Relationship status: separated 2005 then divorced
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You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...


« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2020, 12:50:56 AM »

She said she’s sick but doesn't want to do anything about it.  What can I do to help her?

Your options are somewhat limited because you can't live another person's life for them.  (BPD is a disorder most evident in the closest of relationships.  Typically anything you say will not be perceived well coming through the emotional baggage of the past relationship.)  You can point her in the right direction for help.  For BPD there are at least two approaches, Dialectical Behavioral Therapy (DBT) and Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT).  Quite often, due to the extreme level of Denial, Blaming, Blame Shifting, etc many therapists provide sessions but keep it general and don't name specific therapies so the person doesn't get overly triggered and be more likely to quit.

But recovery is a task she alone can accomplish.  You can support her if she truly does want to recover.  But if she's just going through the motions, faking it, without making substantive progress...

For example, many of us here have reported how our ex picked out the gnat in our mistakes but swallowed the camel (denied accountability) in ex's own mistakes.  You mentioned you kissed someone.  Yet she has been "sleeping around a lot".  Those are are not comparable mistakes — like someone comparing losing a dollar to another losing a paycheck — yet she can't or won't discern that.  All she can perceive is Emotional Betrayal but not her own culpability.  That's what is so frustrating about these acting out personality disorders, you can point out the unreasonableness but you can't reason with someone who won't listen to reason.  (And now I'm back to the difficulty with BPD, it all about the erratic moods and illogical emotional perceptions.)

So there are no children?  If so, then any solution you decide upon will be less complex.  Sadly, having children does not fix serious marital problems, rather it makes everything vastly more complicated, as I discovered the hard way.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2020, 01:02:52 AM by ForeverDad » Logged

Nowisthetime1

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« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2020, 09:13:40 AM »

Hey Forever Dad,

Thanks for responding. No kids man I saw some things at the beginning that gave me cause to pause. But still the desire is there to wait for her. It’s been going on 2 years since I kissed another woman and she isn’t interested in any help. When I met her I felt sorry for her thinking I could help her. I’ve waited 11 years for it. Sadly I’m coming to realize she never wanted any help. What doesn’t kill makes us stronger. Thank you for the response brother. How are you doing?
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KingofTexas37891

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« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2020, 05:37:01 PM »

It is not your job to save her. Just divorce and move on except you want to suffer longterm.
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livednlearned
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« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2020, 07:45:13 AM »

What can I do to help her?

If she slept with other men and you hadn't kissed someone, would you feel differently about her infidelity?
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Breathe.
ForeverDad
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You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...


« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2020, 03:37:42 PM »

So she's had your (overall) good influence for over a decade and things are far worse than at the start?  Frankly, is it realistic to hope that there's some way you can help her?

Maybe, just maybe, a skilled therapist can help her but she would have to work diligently on improving her behaviors and perceptions and over years of sessions.  Is that realistic?

Many here have faced the reality of our circumstances.  That you are here reveals you too are coming to grips with your circumstances too.  One upside — or more accurately described, lesser downside — is that your marriage is not complicated with custody or parenting concerns.  Wise that you don't have children, otherwise ending a failed relationship would be vastly more difficult.
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Nowisthetime1

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« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2020, 05:02:07 AM »

King of Texas, livednlearned and ForeverDad,

Hey guys thanks for responding. I didn’t think anyone else would respond after the last comment months ago. Here’s an update

1. I filed for divorce last month
2. I’ve been in therapy and discovered I’m suffering from attachment issues with my mother. She had 3-4 nervous breakdowns and my father was an alcoholic up until age 12. Mainly doing inner child work concerning the lack of bonding with ma. People with these issues have real fear of abandonment issues and so do I.
3. She told me from the jump she’d commit suicide and I thought I could save her. I wanted to give her what I didbt get in a crazy way. She saw me as her mother and father.
4. She was surprised I filed for divorce and is still doing the same thing. I tried to help her but now must help myself. Thanks for the responses guys.

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HappyKJ
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« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2020, 12:07:53 PM »

I can relate. Honestly I've stopped trying to fix my relationship issues and started focusing on myself. But it's hard because after a really great week where I felt more connected to my partner than I have in a long time, he had a breakdown last night, largely due to running out of his meds. I've learned not to take his hurtful words too personally, but it's still hard when all my attempts to be supportive and helpful backfire.

He said that our current living situation is torturing him and he must go to a hotel and that money shouldn't be an issue. I said it was not an issue and to do whatever gives him relief. Then he said I was kicking him out. He tried to book a hotel but couldn't, probably due to his mental state, and I did not attempt to do it for him as I didn't want to confirm his belief that I was kicking him out.

He then insisted on sleeping on the floor, so I brought him some sheets and blankets from the upstairs room. He said they were giving him a rash, so I offered to wash them, and he said, "I'm sleeping on a concrete floor."

This isn't just about our relationship -- I'm seriously concerned about his mental and physical health and fear he will die soon if he continues down this path. He's addicted to multiple substances and is constantly going through the cycle of ups and downs. He doesn't just need therapy; he needs medical help or a skilled psychiatrist (an ethical one who actually cares about helping people, not the glorified pill pusher he'd been seeing for the past few years). But not only does he refuse professional help of any kind, but any time I bring up the topic, he gets very angry and defensive. He then piles on the shaming, saying how he took care of me when I was having seizures and basically threw away his life for me, and now here I am throwing him under the bus. I am reaching my breaking point and at a loss as to what to do.
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ForeverDad
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You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...


« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2020, 01:01:51 PM »

Some states have a 72 hour hold where they will assess someone's mental health, it's a 5150 in California, the California law code for the temporary, involuntary psychiatric commitment of individuals who present a danger to themselves or others due to signs of mental illness.  But I don't know at which point your word will be taken over her word.  She's very likely to Deny any poor behaviors or threats.  Or even project and claim that you're the crazy one.  If you had recordings of any suicidal rants, that might help.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2020, 01:11:17 PM by ForeverDad » Logged

MeandThee29
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« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2020, 05:42:17 PM »

Only you know what the line is, but by filing for divorce you have a line already. The question is whether to push forward, put it on hold, or withdraw it.

At a certain point, you have to step away from someone that disturbed and leave them to their own devices.

Working on your own issues is important. I put in a tremendous amount of effort with a therapist, life coach, and a support group during separation and the divorce process. To my knowledge, my ex never got any professional help. Because of all I had worked on, I weathered what became a high conflict divorce with my sanity intact. While there was all kinds of drama on the other side, my attorney and I just kept it moving and ultimately got it settled.
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Nowisthetime1

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« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2020, 11:37:15 AM »

HappyKJ, ForeverDad,MeaandThee29,

Thanks for sharing guys I greatly appreciate this. HappyKJ, I feel your pain as you want to help your partner. However, if you don’t take care of your own attachment trauma issues you’ll leave this relationship and get into another similar to it. Also, if you take care of yourself getting the therapy, coaching etc that’s needed you could be beacon of hope for your partner if you crossed paths in the future. Conversely, if you don’t both of you will sink in your own way(s). Both of you are dealing with some attachment issues experienced during childhood and this is apart of the reason you’ve stayed as long as you have. Is it going to be hard to focus on your own well being? Yes but look at the alternative.

MeaandThee29 thanks for your encouragement in focusing on my own well being. You know I still feel sad she isn’t trying to get help. However, I know that if I don’t pursue my own healing then I won’t do me or anyone else any good.

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HappyKJ
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« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2020, 11:40:25 AM »

HappyKJ, ForeverDad,MeaandThee29,

Thanks for sharing guys I greatly appreciate this. HappyKJ, I feel your pain as you want to help your partner. However, if you don’t take care of your own attachment trauma issues you’ll leave this relationship and get into another similar to it. Also, if you take care of yourself getting the therapy, coaching etc that’s needed you could be beacon of hope for your partner if you crossed paths in the future. Conversely, if you don’t both of you will sink in your own way(s). Both of you are dealing with some attachment issues experienced during childhood and this is apart of the reason you’ve stayed as long as you have. Is it going to be hard to focus on your own well being? Yes but look at the alternative.


Yes, you're absolutely right! The next day my partner was back to normal and was basically like "I don't know what happened last night". Then I felt embarrassed for getting so worked up and even posting about it at all (as well as reaching out to others for support); it's like there's a program that keeps running and I keep getting sucked into it even though I've been down this road so many times. At the same time, I'm glad I did write about it. Because even though I have been working on myself, getting support, etc., it shows that I have not quite overcome these dependency/attachment issues, and seeing this post is a visual reminder to both continue working on myself and to remind myself that the next time he gets into one of these states, I don't need to get swept up in the drama too.
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ForeverDad
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You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...


« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2020, 01:08:47 PM »

Yes, you're absolutely right! The next day my partner was back to normal and was basically like "I don't know what happened last night". Then I felt embarrassed for getting so worked up and even posting about it at all...

It's a cycle.  PwBPD gets triggered, goes off the rails and then back to the prior "normal".  Is it dissociation?  Or is it Denial?  I gave up trying to guess.

I've seen that in my ex, a transformation into another persona.  I had come home one day toward the end and my then-spouse started telling me her day and something she said reminded her of something else, nothing about me at all, and suddenly her face morphed and she got sidetracked into rant mode.  I think that's called dissociation.
My last time in family court in 2013 my lawyer played several phone calls where she disparaged me (magistrate's words in the decision) and played games with exchanges.  One example was No you can't get him early just because you got off early for the holiday, then an hour later demanded I pick him up from her location whereas I had already driven to the official exchange location. Well, in court when quizzed if that was her she stated as though third party, for all 9 or 10 of them, "That's my voice but I don't remember it."

Dissociation is a an educated guess but despite being inclined to believe it isn't fully remembered I also point out that their actions, what they later do and don't do, give strong indication they are aware of what they have done at some level.
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I Am Redeemed
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« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2020, 05:44:07 PM »

Def hard to decipher whether they fully remember and are denying, whether they totally dissociated and don't remember at all, whether the toxic shame causes them to immediately push away memories of behaving badly or erratically, or whether they kind of remember but the emotions were so intense that the memories are distorted.

I tend to think it may be a mixture of all of the above depending on the individual person and the situation.

Here's another thought- some resources say that borderline rage is a re-experiencing of a trauma (attachment trauma, abandonment, etc.). The person is experiencing the trauma all over again but with players that are in the present, not the past. It's not the same as an emotional flashback, but I think they are related somewhat. Traumatic experiences can definitely cause people to not remember elements of the event, so maybe it's the same kind of "blocking out" that people do when experiencing something traumatic, which can be dissociative but not completely.
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Nowisthetime1

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« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2020, 06:31:44 AM »

Forever Dad, Happy KJ and I am Redeemed,

Thanks for sharing guys. I’ve found as a great resource for BPD is a lady by the name of AJ Majari on You Tube. Also a dr by the name of John Gunderson who is an expert on bpd states it can take anywhere from 6-16 years of therapy to resolve this. AJ had it but went to therapy for no less than 6 and all up I think it was 8 for her.

HappyKJ, please look after yourself as people in relationships with bpd people tend to lose themselves. The cycle of idealization and devaluation will continue. The thing most painful to accept is they don’t see you but it’s the parent. You are considered “object other” . They have no sense of self since that wasn’t given to them. I know all of this conciously and I still long for that woman who didn’t exist. She was just playing a role of someone she thought I wanted.
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MeandThee29
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« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2020, 10:16:44 AM »

Forever Dad, Happy KJ and I am Redeemed,

Thanks for sharing guys. I’ve found as a great resource for BPD is a lady by the name of AJ Majari on You Tube. Also a dr by the name of John Gunderson who is an expert on bpd states it can take anywhere from 6-16 years of therapy to resolve this. AJ had it but went to therapy for no less than 6 and all up I think it was 8 for her.

HappyKJ, please look after yourself as people in relationships with bpd people tend to lose themselves. The cycle of idealization and devaluation will continue. The thing most painful to accept is they don’t see you but it’s the parent. You are considered “object other” . They have no sense of self since that wasn’t given to them. I know all of this conciously and I still long for that woman who didn’t exist. She was just playing a role of someone she thought I wanted.

Yes, it's good to learn about it. Some downplay A.J.Mahari because she's a layperson who makes her living on BPD, but I think there's value there. Dr. Gunderson has the academic credentials.

My therapist said once to remember that BPD/NPD is on a spectrum though (they are often comorbid; if NPD is in there, you may have a more malignant situation). Some marriages survive because they lower on the spectrum, and their partner is able to set boundaries and find their own place of peace. Others get treatment that brings the relationship to the point that the partner is not being damaged. So not a cure, but good enough. BPD doesn't necessarily mean the end of the marriage.

HOWEVER, if there is ongoing damage to the partner and/or children, a decision may have to be made if the person refuses all treatment. My therapist said it would likely be years of therapy while we lived apart before it would be possible to live in the same house. Needless to say, not many are willing to do that.

My ex decided with his family that all therapy was a no-go, and we are divorced. He was on the malignant end, and it was a high conflict divorce unlike any other than my attorney (over four decades in divorce law) had ever had. His attorney made similar comments to my legal team. It had to be.
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Nowisthetime1

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« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2020, 10:14:58 PM »

MeandThee29,

Sorry to hear that it didn’t work out between you and your spouse. How long have you guys been apart? You know at this point my mind/emotions can’t take another relationship. Thanks for sharing though I greatly appreciate it.

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MeandThee29
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« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2020, 12:07:42 PM »

MeandThee29,

Sorry to hear that it didn’t work out between you and your spouse. How long have you guys been apart? You know at this point my mind/emotions can’t take another relationship. Thanks for sharing though I greatly appreciate it.

We separated over three years ago, many states apart. I was still in deep denial the first year and trying to make it work. Then I came to see that I had to set different criteria for reconciliation than he had, and he initiated the divorce process. I struggled with the thought and was in a rough spot financially, but it had to be. I had a superstar lawyer with a specialty in high conflict divorce. He was absolutely worth it and delegated a lot and wrote off some of the work because he was the managing partner.

It should have been easy. There was no real estate, no custody issues, and no business interests. It took way longer and was way more expensive than it should have been. I'm coming up on a year since it was final.  Closeout has been rocky and isn't over yet. I'm hoping to be completely done in the first quarter of 2021. Just goes to show that it isn't over until it's over.

I'm near retirement age, and I have ZERO interest in dating. After several decades of drama, I'm loving being single. I've had some asks, and I always politely decline and say that I'm off the market by personal choice.
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ForeverDad
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You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...


« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2020, 02:23:51 PM »

It has often been written here that it takes time to recover from a marriage to an acting-out disordered spouse.  Otherwise a relationship too soon risks being a rebound relationship.  Once the legal struggles are over it is good to allow some emotional recovery time.

Later... who can say?
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MeandThee29
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« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2020, 03:05:06 PM »

It has often been written here that it takes time to recover from a marriage to an acting-out disordered spouse.  Otherwise a relationship too soon risks being a rebound relationship.  Once the legal struggles are over it is good to allow some emotional recovery time.

Later... who can say?

Of course. The tough thing about being older is that EVERYONE (including me) has baggage. Thus far the asks have been the type that had a DUI last year and two ex-wives. Ah...no, thank you.
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