How to reconcile "protective dishonesty" part 2

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=344372.30

Ah...  the kids school and career plans...

My oldest, my son attended a highly competitive well-respected university and graduated with dual bachelor's degrees. He's currently working in software development at a "top-tier" well-known company. Needless to say, he's doing very well and advancing in his career at this point. He and DIL are thinking about buying a house in the near-ish future.

Well, h keeps hinting that son will eventually pursue his master's degree in seminary. (religion is kind of like his "family business") Son has no interest right now in doing that - he would like to get an MBA sometime, but his wife and child are the most pressing area for him. DIL thinks it's weird that h keeps hinting at this and kind of pushing it.

Ultimately, h is pushing because it would enhance his standing with his family of origin.

Hi Empath,

Thanks for weighing in. Here I thought these things only happened to me. I think there is a natural tendency to help direct kids and want to share in their successes, and in your case, carry on family traditions.

But, as you know, when the bulldozer comes out, that is a different story. And, my H never shared one negative. It’s not like I want him to embarrass them or that I don’t recognize that they are entitled to their own privacy, but he has painted them as perfect, which I don’t think is fair to them either. And, it’s not just about sharing only the good, skipping the bad.  He embellishes the good.

Curious how I’m seeing how much truthfulness is important to me (isn’t it to everyone?) but yet he has often accused me of lying. Projection?  

Ugh...slow to the rodeo. Thanks Empath.

[UBPDHelp]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=344372.30

Ah...  the kids school and career plans...

My oldest, my son attended a highly competitive well-respected university and graduated with dual bachelor's degrees. He's currently working in software development at a "top-tier" well-known company. Needless to say, he's doing very well and advancing in his career at this point. He and DIL are thinking about buying a house in the near-ish future.

Well, h keeps hinting that son will eventually pursue his master's degree in seminary. (religion is kind of like his "family business") Son has no interest right now in doing that - he would like to get an MBA sometime, but his wife and child are the most pressing area for him. DIL thinks it's weird that h keeps hinting at this and kind of pushing it.

Ultimately, h is pushing because it would enhance his standing with his family of origin.

Hi Empath,

Thanks for weighing in. Here I thought these things only happened to me. I think there is a natural tendency to help direct kids and want to share in their successes, and in your case, carry on family traditions.

But, as you know, when the bulldozer comes out, that is a different story. And, my H never shared one negative. It’s not like I want him to embarrass them or that I don’t recognize that they are entitled to their own privacy, but he has painted them as perfect, which I don’t think is fair to them either. And, it’s not just about sharing only the good, skipping the bad.  He embellishes the good.

Curious how I’m seeing how much truthfulness is important to me (isn’t it to everyone?) but yet he has often accused me of lying. Projection?  

Ugh...slow to the rodeo. Thanks Empath.

[Notwendy]

UBP Help-

Are you doing any counseling, or other ways to help get support for you?

I say this because the main topic of your threads are your H. What he says and does, and I get this as I know the need to understand why. It also helps give information so people can help.

But ultimately- the only person who can change in this situation is you- because we can only change or control ourselves, not another person. It might not seem fair that it's you- he's the one with more behavioral issues, but you are here, not him.

We had marital issues for a long time- things aren't perfect but they are better. It was probably inevitable that- being raised in the family I was raised with- I would bring some dysfunction into a marriage. It's a well known pattern. Being raised with a BPD mom and an enabling father, these were my role models. I was also raised to enable her as a means of getting along in the family.

So I became an enabler, not even knowing what that was. And I married a person who "matched" that with his own traits and many of the behavioral patterns we see on this board emerged.

For years I wanted to go to MC and my H refused. Finally, he agreed at some point, and it was a rocky road because I knew if the MC said anything about him, he'd probably walk out and not return. Still, I went with the hope that finally I would be validated- he had blamed me for all our issues, but his behavior was also an issue.

And the most frustrating thing happened. She pointed the finger at me, not him. He got to be blameless in all this and I was angry. Why do I have to do all the work here? Why do I have the label "codependent" or "enabler" and he's spared any label even if I knew by then that couldn't be true.

I was angry at first but willing to try anything because I was so fed up with the issues, so I did what she said- 12 step groups, work on co-dependency. Until I realized something has changed. I was less reactive, less triggered, there were less circular arguments as I learned to recognize them and step out of the conversation. He was less triggered by me as I became better able to manage my own feelings. Then, one day talking to my mother- she said something mean to me, and it didn't even bother me. I was so grateful for the skills I learned on how to manage myself with her- and realized why the MC had me do the work. I was the one who wanted the relatioship patterns to change.

I'm a firm believer that the way to better is through self work- because then, it's yours- and whether it's your H, your kids, your parents, or anyone else-the skills you learn help you. But the first step is to take your focus off your H and his habits, which I agree are aggravating- taking credit for what you do, saying rude things at TV shows. But his behaviors reflect on him, not you. It's sad to see that because you care about him. He's only going to change when he faces the consequences of them himself.

It's a challenge to live with a person with disordered behavior. They may need the counseling but it's up to them to decide they need it. You though, as the partner, might benefit from it- for support, learning skills to deal with it. Posting here is good too. I wonder if you have considered it?

[formflier]

Notwendy

I'm hoping you can share your journey of overcoming the feelings of "unfairness".  (It sounds like you noticed and enjoyed less arguments...is that it or is there more?)

One of the challenges for me...that I had to kinda sorta let go of is "fault".

If my wife didn't (fill in the blank) first then I wouldn't have (fill in the blank).

I knew 100% that I was "right".  That I was "only" having a problem responding to unreasonable behavior...and I shouldn't have to figure that out...my wife should just be reasonable.

OK...you guys get the vibe.

Anyway...for me empathy for my wife's position and raising and appreciation for my "raising" helped me get over some of that (this is still an area I struggle with)

I also was able to appreciate that less arguments made for a much more pleasant life.

Hoping you can shed some more light on this aspect of your journey.


UBPDhelp

I bring this up because I sense a big dose of "I need credit" or "that's not right in your threads.  For instance, the party things.  (take big breath)  Technically your husband was accurate (from a certain point of view) that he "got" the thing for his kid (see the kernel of truth..small one...yet it's there).  

He "got it" from Mommy downstairs (although he left that part out).

Many times there is a "kernel" of truth in what they say.  I wonder...what if that kernel was validated and appreciated...what would things be like?


Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

I think the feeling of unfairness came from the MC pointing at me.

It's a lot of work being an enabler! But I didn't see it that way- I thought I was being the peacemaker, the one holding the family together, behaving and not yelling.

It took some work to step aside from my own feelings of "victim-ness" ( it's not fair!) to be able to let go of that- because it's not really helpful.

I had to learn to say "no" when I meant no and not be afraid of the reaction. It's important to note that I was not in physical danger- not a physically abusive situation. That's different, but I feared upsetting my H.

There was a lot of work on "what is me" "what is not me".

If my H was upset, that was his feelings to manage, not mine. I didn't cause his upset, that was his choice to react ( as long as I didn't do anything deliberately hurtful)

And my fears of upsetting him and people in general were something I had to work on, and it was obvious where that came from and how I brought that into the marriage.

[babyducks]

So, yes, I can just not correct it. But I do believe this reinforces his need more...that’s a big part of why it bothers me, but also his truth is further from the truth each time

Hello UBPDHelp,

I found this interesting.     and I find myself in agreement with a lot of what NotWendy mentions.   Your threads are about your H and his perspective.    What his thoughts/feelings/needs are.   

What's your need in this?   You got the party supplies.     Your idea.    Your effort.  Your truth.   Your reality.

Managing someone else's feelings so they don't get upset is crossing the line. Because it's our job to manage our own feelings. The ability to regulate our own emotions is another "match point" between partners in a couple. Your H has poor emotional regulation skills, so you manage his by doing things like not telling him about the plumber bill- so he doesn't get upset. Yet, on your part, you aren't able to manage how you feel when he gets upset- so you are in a way, managing your feelings too when you manage his.

Maybe the party stuff bothered you because you didn't get credit.   Maybe the party stuff bothered you because you felt it was dishonest.   Maybe the party stuff bothered you because you were boxed out of a happy moment with your child.   Maybe the party stuff bothered you because it was another example of distorted reality.     

The thing is,...trying to change his behavior so you get more credit, so there is more honesty, so that you can share in the moment, so that reality is less distorted; is an example of really poor boundaries.   Trying to change, or control someone else never works.   

The key to allowing a person to manage their own feelings is to be able to manage ours. Nobody likes to be yelled at- so you don't have to listen to it. You can leave the room, or simply not respond. I wasn't sure this could be done. It takes practice, but once you are able to not manage his feelings and let him take care of them - while you take care of yours, you are beginning to realize the boundary between his feelings ( his) and yours.

there is a boundary between his feels and yours.   his actions and yours.   if you spend an equal amount of time and energy trying to figure out what about the party supplies got to you... what you would have preferred to see happen and how to get what you need in a healthy way... the chances of success will be greater.
 

 

But, yes, for this I at least want to know what I did to “flip that switch” for him. I don’t do an actual thing I would change, but I might totally be open to changing how I do it or how I approach him with it.

One of my biggest issues right now is just having this all straight in my head. If this, then that. And then this changes, now what?

you didn't flip a switch for him.   Personality disorders are imbedded in the personality likely due to a combination  of genetic and environmental influences during childhood. the science is still incomplete but points to both factors. trying to correct, control, impact, fix, manipulate the switch will increase the level of conflict.  if you change... you feel better.   if you change you ... you live with less emotional turmoil.   if you change you endure less verbal violence.  if you learn to validate him the relationship can become healthier.   if you learn to be an emotional leader  he might behave better.   he  also might become more volatile.    one size does not fit all.   it is also important to remember that no two pwBPD/pwNPD act completely alike.     It is the unique events of each persons life that make up the content of the fears and distorted thinking.

I certainly don't want to give the idea that "understanding background" is of  little value.  I think the greatest value in understanding background is to understand that you (nons) didn't cause this.  Next value is understanding that there is little chance of directly "getting them help" or "getting them to see the light".

Then value in seeing how we "play into" or "exacerbate" this (very very different than causation)

I would go farther and say the value is seeing how we improve the relationship (not the person)  or how we make the relationship more dysfunctional.

I would go farther and say the value is learning to appreciate each unique individual for where they are.

'ducks

[PeteWitsend]

This thread is continued from this discussion:https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=344343.30

...
Anyway, over the years I’ve shielded H from things partially cuz he loses his temper but mostly because I didn’t want to deal with his reaction and could take care of myself. This has now made me dishonest. I know it wasn’t the right choice, but at the time(s) I didn’t want to deal with his reaction.
...

I don't think this makes you dishonest, especially if you didn't change your behavior generally, only with respect to your H.  

As I think about it, even with respect to your H, in my opinion you're not being dishonest.

pwBPD intentionally trample all over the trust that's supposed to be part of a relationship; they take advantage of it in order to portray themselves as the victim of their SO/spouse's behavior.  This is not fair to the spouse, and so I don't think reacting in kind is "dishonest."  Knowing that pwBPD will use honest answers to questions they ask in order to pick fights with their spouses/SOs, the spouses have no duty to respond honestly. 

So I think I understand where you're coming from here.  It's one thing to lie to your spouse - even one with BPD - over important things: infidelity, money, etc.  It's another to lie over minor things to keep the peace.  

When a party answers under duress - and questioning from a pwBPD is most certainly duress - they cannot be held accountable for their answer.  

[PeteWitsend]

I recall, as an example, BPDxw often asking me what I'd like to do with my free time: whether it was later today, next week, for vacation, etc.

Initially, I'd think about what would make me happy, and what I'd want to do, and answer accordingly. 

BPDxw would get upset with my answer, claim this meant I didn't want to spend time with her, claim I didn't love her as much as she loved me, then emotionally state that she would just have to learn to live with a man who didn't put his family first or something along those lines.  Then she would take the logical leap to claim that my response meant I wanted to leave her, or I'd be happier without her, or some nonsense (though eventually she made this a self-fulfilling prophecy). 

Next time she asked the question?  My answer: "Spend every moment with you." 

Nothing could be farther from the truth, but what difference did it make? 

I don't consider myself or my answer dishonest.  The question itself was loaded, and dishonest. 

[Notwendy]

Protective dishonesty-

I don't think it's about being ethical to your spouse, it's about hiding who you are and not being authentic. To distinguish this, it's important to check in with how you feel.

Again, it's not about him, it's about you and your feelings/self worth.

If your wife asks "honey does this dress make me look fat?"

If you think it does for heaven's sake do not say yes! That's protective dishonesty.

Shielding someone from reality- like the cost of the plumber, because you fear the reaction and don't want to upset him could be seen as enabling- managing his feelings to help manage your fears.

The key is how you feel when you do this. I find that I feel "icky" when I am enabling someone. I feel like I sold myself short. That's the key for myself to recognize it.

The reality is- the cost of things. If you have a home, there are costs that come with that. You can help to manage them by not making expensive choices but it's hard to avoid a plumber cost if you were to need one. And, you also need a competent plumber as a cheap job could be costly later. So there's a certain price that you need to pay. I found they don't vary a lot with standard plumbing services.

He may not like the bill, but who does really? But he's a grown man. He can deal with being upset or angry at the bill, and he can choose how to respond to it. If you aren't in physical danger, then let him manage his feelings. The key is - you need to manage yours when he is upset.

The consequences to protective dishonesty are to me. I feel I have a better self esteem when I can be more authentic. I hope this makes sense.

[UBPDHelp]

UBP Help-

Are you doing any counseling, or other ways to help get support for you?

I say this because the main topic of your threads are your H. What he says and does, and I get this as I know the need to understand why. It also helps give information so people can help.

But ultimately- the only person who can change in this situation is you- because we can only change or control ourselves, not another person. It might not seem fair that it's you- he's the one with more behavioral issues, but you are here, not him.

We had marital issues for a long time- things aren't perfect but they are better. It was probably inevitable that- being raised in the family I was raised with- I would bring some dysfunction into a marriage. It's a well known pattern. Being raised with a BPD mom and an enabling father, these were my role models. I was also raised to enable her as a means of getting along in the family.

So I became an enabler, not even knowing what that was. And I married a person who "matched" that with his own traits and many of the behavioral patterns we see on this board emerged.

For years I wanted to go to MC and my H refused. Finally, he agreed at some point, and it was a rocky road because I knew if the MC said anything about him, he'd probably walk out and not return. Still, I went with the hope that finally I would be validated- he had blamed me for all our issues, but his behavior was also an issue.

And the most frustrating thing happened. She pointed the finger at me, not him. He got to be blameless in all this and I was angry. Why do I have to do all the work here? Why do I have the label "codependent" or "enabler" and he's spared any label even if I knew by then that couldn't be true.

I was angry at first but willing to try anything because I was so fed up with the issues, so I did what she said- 12 step groups, work on co-dependency. Until I realized something has changed. I was less reactive, less triggered, there were less circular arguments as I learned to recognize them and step out of the conversation. He was less triggered by me as I became better able to manage my own feelings. Then, one day talking to my mother- she said something mean to me, and it didn't even bother me. I was so grateful for the skills I learned on how to manage myself with her- and realized why the MC had me do the work. I was the one who wanted the relatioship patterns to change.

I'm a firm believer that the way to better is through self work- because then, it's yours- and whether it's your H, your kids, your parents, or anyone else-the skills you learn help you. But the first step is to take your focus off your H and his habits, which I agree are aggravating- taking credit for what you do, saying rude things at TV shows. But his behaviors reflect on him, not you. It's sad to see that because you care about him. He's only going to change when he faces the consequences of them himself.

It's a challenge to live with a person with disordered behavior. They may need the counseling but it's up to them to decide they need it. You though, as the partner, might benefit from it- for support, learning skills to deal with it. Posting here is good too. I wonder if you have considered it?

Hi notwendy,

Thank you for reply and sharing your experience.

I am not getting outside help at this point for a number of reasons. That said, when we go out and about I will certainly seeing if I can make that happen.

Let me start by saying that I know I have a part in this dynamic AND that truly I can only change my behavior.  

I do focus on what he does because honestly I find much of it so out there and need help distinguishing if it’s as out there as I think (FYI, I’m searching for what a “normal/typical” range of behavior looks like because I believe I’ve lost the ability).  And, many of these are behaviors (breaking things, endless rage texting salacious lies) are not ones I can continue living with. So trying to understand him AND knowing I may be doing things to contribute to it is part of the process I need.

Please know that because I spend time there does NOT mean I don’t think I have a part in it. Weighing a family and 25+ years of marriage before giving up.

That said, I have set several boundaries that are holding. The improvement in those arenas is noticeable, but anticipating that some may be forced close quarters when he can’t leave that is holding those behaviors in check. Will see.

I’m also doing less of the caretaking. Seems some better for him and definitely better for me, although I am a more nurturing person by nature, so some old habits hard to break.

So on those ME things I am working.

AND, I am so open to any and everything I can do to do better for myself. I want to be the best I can be and regain myself.

Thank you so much for sharing...would love any suggestions you have.

[UBPDHelp]

UBPDhelp

I bring this up because I sense a big dose of "I need credit" or "that's not right in your threads.  For instance, the party things.  (take big breath)  Technically your husband was accurate (from a certain point of view) that he "got" the thing for his kid (see the kernel of truth..small one...yet it's there).  

He "got it" from Mommy downstairs (although he left that part out).

Many times there is a "kernel" of truth in what they say.  I wonder...what if that kernel was validated and appreciated...what would things be like?

Hi FF,

Hello my friend. Thank you for your reply.

You will have to take my word for it, but it is not all about the credit for me. Not at all.  Sit in on a team meeting and you will hear me give accolades to my entire team and give them credit, downplaying my role.

I believe the thread that runs through all things with my H is hypocrisy coupled with his rage at the exact things he is hypocritical about.

My past vs his past.  His way more graphic and prolific, but he’s a guy. Not giving me/anyone (credit denied is not specific to me!) vs him getting credit for everything. There are many examples.

Even in his own expectations. Make dinner — you’re not my mother. Why isn’t the laundry done?  

He is getting more leeway than imaginable right now because he is pandemic stressed so I am doing nothing but holding my boundaries, not caretaking, trying not to JADE, using other tools.

I am not triggered by much. I mean I’ve heard and seen some crazy sh!t.  May not matter to me, but not shocked or upset.

And, the last thing I would say about his “truth”.  If this is the case, also hypocritical. He has a big hangup about this exact thing. He incorrectly attributes an explanation as “fudging” the line.  Just not his truth.

Anyway, I am frustrated by the global hypocrisy, not so much the specific credit/no credit.

Perhaps that’s what I have to let go of, but then how much of me is left? Idk...obviously still figuring this out.

I’ll try to shift my focus around again...seems the common voice coming through.

[formflier]

Hmmm...interesting post.

Hypocrisy p!sses me off as well.  Makes me feel "ok" with doing things back to her.  It also makes it hard to focus and think when I'm ticked.

The post was interesting to me because it seemed to move "around" the issue of giving credit without addressing it.

If you are ok with not needing credit or handing it out...I guess I'm perplexed at the upset about hubby grabbing credit when there is a kernel of truth there (even if he grabs more than his fair share)

It's important to separate out issues and be specific and put "blinders" on to other issues that are competing for your attention.

You can't handle everything at once...can't work through (think about) everything at once either.

Channel some ghostbusters here...

Don't cross the streams...

https://youtu.be/wyKQe_i9yyo


Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Hello UBPDHelp,

I found this interesting.     and I find myself in agreement with a lot of what NotWendy mentions.   Your threads are about your H and his perspective.    What his thoughts/feelings/needs are.   

What's your need in this?   You got the party supplies.     Your idea.    Your effort.  Your truth.   Your reality.

Maybe the party stuff bothered you because you didn't get credit.   Maybe the party stuff bothered you because you felt it was dishonest.   Maybe the party stuff bothered you because you were boxed out of a happy moment with your child.   Maybe the party stuff bothered you because it was another example of distorted reality.     

The thing is,...trying to change his behavior so you get more credit, so there is more honesty, so that you can share in the moment, so that reality is less distorted; is an example of really poor boundaries.   Trying to change, or control someone else never works.   

there is a boundary between his feels and yours.   his actions and yours.   if you spend an equal amount of time and energy trying to figure out what about the party supplies got to you... what you would have preferred to see happen and how to get what you need in a healthy way... the chances of success will be greater.

Hi BabyDucks...thanks for weighing in. I just addressed this a bit with FF and notwendy.  I don’t need the credit, that’s not the trigger. I believe I am more bothered by the level of hypocrisy.

And for something like this, (which was a small, recent example, not a huge deal) I don’t know a good way to avoid/address. Okay with letting it go, but it starts to feel like I’m letting everything go and he’s running amok over me. What’s the boundary? (I’m being serious, I do not know).
 

 

you didn't flip a switch for him.   Personality disorders are imbedded in the personality likely due to a combination  of genetic and environmental influences during childhood. the science is still incomplete but points to both factors. trying to correct, control, impact, fix, manipulate the switch will increase the level of conflict.  if you change... you feel better.   if you change you ... you live with less emotional turmoil.   if you change you endure less verbal violence.  if you learn to validate him the relationship can become healthier.   if you learn to be an emotional leader  he might behave better.   he  also might become more volatile.    one size does not fit all.   it is also important to remember that no two pwBPD/pwNPD act completely alike.     It is the unique events of each persons life that make up the content of the fears and distorted thinking.

I would go farther and say the value is seeing how we improve the relationship (not the person)  or how we make the relationship more dysfunctional.

I would go farther and say the value is learning to appreciate each unique individual for where they are.

Well, I may not be being very articulate or making it clear but I believe why I focus on him is because I know he’s not likely to change.  Can I do anything to improve the relationship?  I am trying BUT if his behaviors are what’s left, that’s what I don’t know if I can live with.

I’ve mentioned these things were fewer and further between and not as bad, didn’t last so long. He’s been stressed for several years and now pandemic, he’s barely functioning.

The sliver of hope for improvement is all I have at the moment and idk if it’s enough.

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts.

[formflier]

  What’s the boundary? (I’m being serious, I do not know).
 

A boundary is for something you can control or you can protect.  It's not about controlling the behavior of someone else (that's a rule).

Can you expand a bit on hypocrisy.  How do you see that in taking credit for a gift?

That might help me form the boundary better.

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

A boundary isn't about the other person. It's a reflection of your values. It doesn't stop anyone from violating your boundary. Your boundary determines what you will do if this happens.

Your value: I don't wish to hear profanity.

Your response: when someone speaks profanity, I will remove myself from the conversation.

So you are watching TV with your H, he says something offensive to you. You respond with " honey, it bothers me to hear this, so I am going to go ---- do the dishes, help with homework, feed the cat, take bath...whatever - but you don't act on him.

Did you notice there was no mention of "you" when speaking to your H. "you need to stop saying this, if you don't stop, I will leave".

This was only about your boundary and could apply to anyone.

What's not a boundary: " you had better stop speaking like this to me".  That would be trying to act on him, not you.

[kells76]

kells76 from "across the hall" popping in.

Great discussion on "dishonesty". I want to share something similar to PeteWitsend:

I recall, as an example, BPDxw often asking me what I'd like to do with my free time: whether it was later today, next week, for vacation, etc.

Initially, I'd think about what would make me happy, and what I'd want to do, and answer accordingly. 

BPDxw would get upset with my answer, claim this meant I didn't want to spend time with her, claim I didn't love her as much as she loved me, then emotionally state that she would just have to learn to live with a man who didn't put his family first or something along those lines.  Then she would take the logical leap to claim that my response meant I wanted to leave her, or I'd be happier without her, or some nonsense (though eventually she made this a self-fulfilling prophecy). 

Next time she asked the question?  My answer: "Spend every moment with you." 

Nothing could be farther from the truth, but what difference did it make? 

I don't consider myself or my answer dishonest.  The question itself was loaded, and dishonest.

OK, so I think a lot of us here focus on the words; I know I do with DH's ex. PeteWitsend, I'm guessing she asked a "normal" sounding question: literally "Hey PeteWitsend, what do you want to do this weekend?"

But a question is more than just the specific words linked together.

One example that a teacher of mine gave long ago was the following:

Imagine it's WWII and you are hiding Jews in your house. Nazis come to your door and ask you: "Are you hiding any Jews?"

What do you do? You're "supposed to tell the truth", right?

If we slow down and think about this, we can come to see that the words someone uses are not the totality of their question. Experience, information, memories, patterns, etc are all things we use to understand, along with the words, what someone means when they ask something.

What the Nazis were really asking was "Do you have any Jews I can kill, and will you participate in that with me?"

So, when we rightly understand the question (like PeteWitsend mentioned, it's a loaded question), we can give a truthful answer:

"No, I have no Jews here" [for you to kill].

PeteWitsend, I'm guessing that the true question your W was asking was "What do you want to do with me this weekend?"

UBPDhelp, when your H asks about $, I wonder if his true question is "What money do you have for me in your stash?"

When DH's kids' mom asked me "Are you guys feeling sick?" the other weekend, I didn't slow down to consider her true question, which was "Will you share information with me that I can use against you to keep the kids away?"

Food for thought; hope it helps as we work through "what do they mean when they ask me xxxx".

[UBPDHelp]

A boundary is for something you can control or you can protect.  It's not about controlling the behavior of someone else (that's a rule).

Can you expand a bit on hypocrisy.  How do you see that in taking credit for a gift?

That might help me form the boundary better.

Hi FF,

I understand boundary. Didn’t start with seeing it was mine to assert AND was for my benefit. I do still trip and believe (or maybe just want) it to impact his behavior. Intellectually I understand it, emotionally I struggle with this fact. I just can’t wrap my head around the disordered frame of mind.

Anyway, hypocrisy. So I don’t have a great need to get credit. Sure I appreciate if someone acknowledges my effort, but it’s not a driving force or motivator in why I do something.

H takes credit for his stuff, my stuff, his partner’s stuff.  Embellishes his contribution vs never giving credit to me or others and either downplays our part or actually spins it negative.

H rages at my past, but embellishes and openly discusses his.

I have more examples but don’t have time right now.

So, it’s really trying to understand how to put a boundary around not giving credit or taking undue credit (and any other hypocritical thing). Is the boundary just that I don’t let it bother me?

The thing is, I could try to state my truth and not invalidate, but simply saying my truth is invalidating to him.

I still have a missing story, but around the truth stating, I have seen pure, 100% manipulation of truth around one of his rages. He’s told me an out and out lie, repeated the lie because he’s trying to reconstruct a valid reason he behaved the way he did. Self protection (he can’t be bad)? Or manipulating my perception (I don’t know if you gaslight yourself)?

I think some of this concerns me around the truth, too.

Sorry...I want to share more and reply to all, but can’t tonight.

Thanks!

[UBPDHelp]

Good morning,

I’m going to try to pick up points I’ve yet to address. Thank you all for sharing your observations and suggestions.

Please know that just because I focus a lot of my posts on what my H does, it doesn’t mean I think I can change him or that I don’t think I contribute to the dynamic. I’m struggling with the magnitude of his behavior and I’m trying to figure out, knowing he won’t change, if I continue to use tools and change me, if it will make dealing with him any better. And, his poor behavior has increased dramatically, even prior to pandemic.

Get upset because a bill didn’t get paid, okay. Disagree with the neighbor having work done in the yard, okay.  Looking at me and getting upset that my shirt has two pockets, not okay. How could this possibly matter? Why is it even a discussion (solely with himself)?  I only replied that, yea, it’s kind of a fun change (and I’ve worn the shirt 20+ times).  And then a few more negative comments about it and I excused myself.

Repeat this throughout the day about the bread, son’s sneakers, my hair, socks. I have set boundaries around this but it’s tiring to keep excusing myself because he spirals about things that most people wouldn’t even notice or care about.

So, yes, back to me. I’m just not convinced that changing how I respond is going to help me deal with this. And understanding that his level of intensity and frequency of dysregulation have both increased, despite nothing in my behavior or our circumstances changing, there has to be something going on with him.

[Notwendy]

Kells76 brought up another aspect of this- the "loaded" or veiled question.

I think the response to "what should I do" basically comes down to = who am I protecting? And if it is yourself- the usually underlying reason is fear.

Fear of what? If it's imminent danger- yes, protect yourself. Being private about finances can fall in that category, as the money could be needed for survival in the case of a divorce or DV.

Or is it managing someone else's feelings such as hiding a plumber bill so your H doesn't get upset- cause you fear the upset.

The consequences though are not survival ( unpleasant but not dangerous) and it also affects H negatively- sparing him the chance to deal with his own feelings of upset over the cost of the plumber which is a regular cost of shelter is shielding him from adulthood, and that's not good for him in the long run.

Our counselor did a great job of explaining how an action can be the same, but the intention behind it is what is the difference.

1) you cook dinner for your family out of love and a desire to make them a nutritious meal.

2) ( this was my situation). You cook dinner for your H because if you don't, he will be angry  the rest of the evening, and you are afraid of that.

#2, you cook out of fear and are managing your H's feelings. The long term result of this is resentment and continuing the dysfunctional dynamics. When I begin to feel resentment, I know I have stepped over the line from a  voluntary caring act to enabling.

There is nothing wrong about cooking a meal for someone you care about. The act wasn't wrong. It was the intention behind it. I did this for so many years that cooking was associated with resentment.

It takes some self reflection to see your intentions behind your "protective dishonesty". I have found that how I feel about what I say or do is a clue to whether I am enabling or not.

[UBPDHelp]

Hi BabyDucks,

I went back to your reply and this jumped out at me...

Maybe the party stuff bothered you because you didn't get credit.   Maybe the party stuff bothered you because you felt it was dishonest.   Maybe the party stuff bothered you because you were boxed out of a happy moment with your child.   Maybe the party stuff bothered you because it was another example of distorted reality.

The thing is,...trying to change his behavior so you get more credit, so there is more honesty, so that you can share in the moment, so that reality is less distorted; is an example of really poor boundaries.   Trying to change, or control someone else never works.

 I think all of these, except credit. The thing is, it didn’t rise to the level of giving credit. It was a small token, kid two knew it came from somewhere, so it could have just been left unsaid. But H chose to make it a bigger deal and then misrepresent it. AND, I’m starting to suspect he’s starting to believe untruths he creates. Not sure how concerned I should be about this.

I do understand that I can’t change him. But what is the boundary? What do I get from the boundary?

When H takes credit for something I do, I what?

State my truth?
Walk away?

I’m not being flippant.  I really don’t know what this boundary is or what I get from it. I don’t mean, I get to take credit, but is the win, peace?

The boundary I have to not listen to him rage about my past is clear to me, including what I get from this boundary.

Lastly, I also think my stuck point on him taking “credit” is more directed to the narcissistic side. I’ve seen first hand how his ego has grown.

To say he’s responsible for his perception is true, but when the rest of us deal with the fall out of his distorted view of himself, his perception affects us all.  

Again, I don’t want to seem like I’m challenging the views, I totally get that I have to focus on my behavior/viewpoint/reaction, but this is where I’m struggling.

Thanks for listening.

[UBPDHelp]

Kells76 brought up another aspect of this- the "loaded" or veiled question.

I think the response to "what should I do" basically comes down to = who am I protecting? And if it is yourself- the usually underlying reason is fear.

Fear of what? If it's imminent danger- yes, protect yourself. Being private about finances can fall in that category, as the money could be needed for survival in the case of a divorce or DV.

Or is it managing someone else's feelings such as hiding a plumber bill so your H doesn't get upset- cause you fear the upset.

The consequences though are not survival ( unpleasant but not dangerous) and it also affects H negatively- sparing him the chance to deal with his own feelings of upset over the cost of the plumber which is a regular cost of shelter is shielding him from adulthood, and that's not good for him in the long run.

Our counselor did a great job of explaining how an action can be the same, but the intention behind it is what is the difference.

1) you cook dinner for your family out of love and a desire to make them a nutritious meal.

2) ( this was my situation). You cook dinner for your H because if you don't, he will be angry  the rest of the evening, and you are afraid of that.

#2, you cook out of fear and are managing your H's feelings. The long term result of this is resentment and continuing the dysfunctional dynamics. When I begin to feel resentment, I know I have stepped over the line from a  voluntary caring act to enabling.

There is nothing wrong about cooking a meal for someone you care about. The act wasn't wrong. It was the intention behind it. I did this for so many years that cooking was associated with resentment.

It takes some self reflection to see your intentions behind your "protective dishonesty". I have found that how I feel about what I say or do is a clue to whether I am enabling or not.

Thanks notwendy.

Very good point. Generally I am not afraid of him (he’s had a couple of episodes of breaking things since pandemic (a few one off incidents years ago) which have me paying attention right now, although he’s been somewhat calmer more recently) but I’ve also been subjected to long rants about things like this, so I’ve tried to handle things I can. Know I’ve lacked tools to let him deal with it and when I have said I need a break (didn’t do so great perhaps as I was winging it not knowing all the tools) he hasn’t really allowed that and followed me around still complaining and yelling.

But, lately he’s been annoyed with neighbors not social distancing and I just let him manage that. He’s gone on for an hour about it. I pop in and out and he’ll just still be going on about it, but I don’t have to deal with it.

I would say 100% my motivation for tough conversations with him is that I am tired of the battle that ensues. And, now it takes me a long time to ready myself to deal with big problems with him.

I have one today and I am definitely feeling stressed about it.

Thank you for showing the distinction...that’s a great tool for me to help distinguish why I’m doing something. Goodness, I love a good example!

[Notwendy]

UBP help- It makes sense your H is dysregulating more if everyone is home with social distancing. It's a stress even without BPD. They can't handle their emotions well.

One thing I have noticed is that there's a sort of "theraputic" result to the dysregulation. With my mother, it's quite dramatic. Since she's so severe, seeing her behaviors has helped me to see patterns. She can get wound up with emotions, and then, like a tea kettle, they all come out, in dramatic ways. Once she does this, it seems to reset her emotional state. Sometimes she doesn't even recall what she's done or said during this time. But once she resets, she feels all better, seems to have forgotten what happened, all is good now, and she expects us to feel the same. So from time to time she does this- as the feelings become so hard to manage, this helps.

The problem is- we didn't forget what just happened and it feels awful.

On a milder scale- and I think many people are milder- being upset about something outside themselves can also be an outlet for uncomfortable feelings. I think they perceive these feelings as being outside of themselves. They are feelings looking for a reason.The reason can be anything at the moment of the feeling. So, it might be your shirt, your son's sneaker, the neighbor but it's not any of them. That's why these reasons seem irrational. They are irrational.

So what we try to do, if someone we care about is upset at something, is to fix the situation. Don't like my shirt? OK, I won't wear it. Upset at the plumber bill? OK, I'll take care of it. So we end up trying to do something about what seems like a moving target, but the reason it's a moving target is that it's not the target.

It's the feelings. We all have feelings and we need to be able to manage them. PwBPD have difficulty doing that.

This pandemic is upsetting everyone to some extent. The first thing I do when I get up is check the news. I feel sad about it, even cry sometimes. This is a scary situation. I don't like not seeing my friends, or not going to work. I could list more. But I can see these are my feelings and I have to deal with them. For someone with BPD, they can't see that these are their feelings. It has to be the shirt, or the sneakers, or the neighbor. Having a blow up over something is like a child with a stomach ache who feels better after they throw up. It's emotional vomit. And I think sometimes they seek a reason to do this- not to intentionally cause harm, but because it makes them feel better after they do,

I am sure it's hard to deal with this all day long. What has helped me is to not take these things at face value or personally and know that it is a person's feelings being expressed in a dysfunctional way.

[UBPDHelp]

I don't think this makes you dishonest, especially if you didn't change your behavior generally, only with respect to your H.  

As I think about it, even with respect to your H, in my opinion you're not being dishonest.

pwBPD intentionally trample all over the trust that's supposed to be part of a relationship; they take advantage of it in order to portray themselves as the victim of their SO/spouse's behavior.  This is not fair to the spouse, and so I don't think reacting in kind is "dishonest."  Knowing that pwBPD will use honest answers to questions they ask in order to pick fights with their spouses/SOs, the spouses have no duty to respond honestly. 

So I think I understand where you're coming from here.  It's one thing to lie to your spouse - even one with BPD - over important things: infidelity, money, etc.  It's another to lie over minor things to keep the peace.  

When a party answers under duress - and questioning from a pwBPD is most certainly duress - they cannot be held accountable for their answer.  

Hi Pete,

Thank you for your input. The plumber is a small one and based on everyone’s input, I see a consensus that H is a big boy and needs to deal with big boy problems. The thing is, on small stuff, I don’t know if adding to his rant playlist is something I can deal with. Maybe it’s unfair to him.

But, you mention money as being a big issue. The broader “protective dishonesty” conversation revolves around money I have that the full amount hasn’t been disclosed to H.

A little background since I know you’ve just joined this “party” (woohoo, isn’t it fun?). Been married 25+ years, four kids (two older/launching, two dependent), H has been dysregulated for 9-10 months near constantly. Prior it was increasing, but still way less. He has been threatening divorce (occasionally veiled affair threats), possesses a lot of double standards,etc.

So I have saved a little money and have a little money from my dad who passed last year. H knows it’s there, but not really how much. He hasn’t asked and I haven’t told him amount. He will try to spend it on vacations, stuff. I would prefer save it, and with divorce threats, as a way to provide temporary support for me and kiddos if we divorce. This feels dishonest and not something I would have ever done EXCEPT with looming divorce threats, I have been weighing whether this was acceptable dishonesty. Very nutshell.

Since you mentioned money, would love your input on situation.

Thanks so much.

[formflier]

The thing is, I could try to state my truth and not invalidate, but simply saying my truth is invalidating to him.
 

OK..I'm not suggesting that you do engage on this...especially now.

However, I think it wise you understand how I would and have engaged on these type of things.

"Blah blah I got you this for your birthday Johnny.."

you: (a bit perplexed) "Oh wow...what store did you get this from?"

him:  "blah blah you don't need to know.."

you:  "hey babe I'm confused I got sometime very similar at Target yesterday.  Perhaps I have the receipt in my purse...would that help to clarify things?"

For stuff like this I'm not a fan of directly contradicting.  I'm more of a fan of "holding open the doorway for truth" and seeing if they walk through it.

Here is the thing:

This is likely a place for radical acceptance.

This is also a place to do some soul searching.  

If it doesn't matter to you..all good.  

It does seem to matter greatly that he conforms to your version of "truth".

A boundary would be...I don't do (blank) with untruthful people.  

So maybe that means things you get...you deliver directly to the people involved.

I get the vibe there is some work to do in this entire area of "getting credit".  (note this would tick me off big time and I'm thankful that my wife doesn't do this much)

In fact more than half of the time this is an area I appreciate my wife as she will say things like

"Hey kids..look what Daddy got at store.  What doe we say?"

and often I'll say things like

"Hey kids what can we do to show Mommy appreciation for the meal she put together tonight?"

or if things are unclear

"Who were the kitchen chef's tonight?"  (and people will answer up but we train them to answer up and boost their team mates)

So D14 might say "I worked on it and D7 was  massive help rolling out the dough"

I'm wondering if changing the way you parent about this and asking for your hubby's help would indirectly help this.

Direct confrontation rarely works.

Let's keep exploring this.  FF thinks there is stuff here for a "victory".

Best,

FF

[babyducks]

Hi UBPDHelp,

thanks so much for coming back and explaining again.  I appreciate that.   I've been thinking about untreated serious mental illness and hypocrisy.    what does it mean.   how do they relate.    it's been interesting.    I don't think you are being challenging.    this is really tough stuff.   and you are digging into it at a very deep level.

I do understand that I can’t change him. But what is the boundary? What do I get from the boundary?

There might be no external boundary here.    this might not be the tool you want to apply.    the tool you might want to try is validation.     validate heavily what he did do.    even that might not have an impact.

When H takes credit for something I do, I what?

State my truth?
Walk away?

I’m not being flippant.  I really don’t know what this boundary is or what I get from it. I don’t mean, I get to take credit, but is the win, peace?

there might not be anything to do.   there may be no boundary.   your H takes credit for something that is not his,... you  might say to yourself... oh I recognize this for what it is.    and that's it.     that might be all there is.   the thing to do might be to accept what you can not change.    the win here might be to protect the kids and protect your own state of mind by having a deep understanding of the frailty of his psyche.

I just can’t wrap my head around the disordered frame of mind.

so this right here.    this is where the struggle is, IMHO.      

my definition of hypocrisy is the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform.     and I am not totally sure how that applies to a person suffering from a mental illness.    personally I never considered my Ex to be insincere  because her standards were so fluid, so transitory and so illusionary that I didn't consider them real.     It took a while to see but I eventually viewed much of what she did and said to be frantic attempts to feel better.    and I couldn't begrudge her that.

it took a while to understand and accept but I came to see the demand for rights, commitments and behaviors from others that she was not willing or able to reciprocate as part of the bedrock of this illness.  for me it wasn't hypocrisy it was a symptom.

To say he’s responsible for his perception is true, but when the rest of us deal with the fall out of his distorted view of himself, his perception affects us all.  

oh absolutely.    totally true.   and again this is where the focus turns to you (and the kids)    how much damage is being done... to you... to the kids.    how much can you tolerate.    how much can you work within?    how can you develop a sense of inner calm and inner peace that is separate from the disordered, dysregulated behavior and environment.     how can you help the children develop robust and healthy self esteem ?    once the answers to those questions start to become clear...   decisions will be easier.    it might be too soon to try and figure out what "the answer" is with too many of the puzzle pieces missing.  give yourself more time to process this.

my two cents.
'ducks

[Notwendy]

Maybe there's some insight to why your H took credit for the birthday purchases.

I don't know your financial arrangement with your H. I have a job, but it pays less than my H's job. I also was a stay at home mom when the kids were younger. My H thankfully has provided for the family. In return, I have taken on the housework, child care, etc. I feel that each person needs to contribute to the well being of the family-- but also know that this contribution can be in different ways. I like to be a team player. Maybe he's the pitcher, and I'm second baseman , but we are each essential parts of the team.

That's not how my H perceived it. He felt he was not  recognized for the fact that he was the one who made the money in the home. That's a crucial position and I fully recognize that without him doing that, we would not have shelter, or food, or clothes, or nice things. I also am capable of doing that as well, but this was the arrangement he prefered. ( I had a career as well). It was actually his decision to have this arrangement. He didn't want to have anything to do with housework, child care.

Even though it was his decision, he felt resentful and unappreciated. It seemed in every discussion I heard " I make the money".  We have a budget that we agreed on, and each month, I had a sum to use for household expenses, kids, clothing, and things I might need or want. But the kids' and household needs came first. But to my H, it felt as if each month, he was handing over a sum of money to me- all for me. That made no sense as it was obvious to him where it went- but he felt that way.

I don't know your arrangement with your H, but if he provides a large part of your household budget, then, even though you may have gone to the store to get the birthday items, in his mind, he bought them if he contributed the money, and he wants recognition and appreciation for that. If that's the case, why not let him have it?

We all need affirmation. I say pick your battles. If you H is taking credit for the things you give to your kids, then maybe he needs to be recognized. You could just let that be.

[formflier]

Lots of examples of "kernel of truth" (to you). 

You can see how he may think it is more than a "kernel".

I was reading something from Gottman the other day and he was saying that "appreciation is the antidote for contempt".

I'm not really focusing on contempt here, instead I hope you can see how powerful appreciation is.

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

OK..I'm not suggesting that you do engage on this...especially now.

However, I think it wise you understand how I would and have engaged on these type of things.

"Blah blah I got you this for your birthday Johnny.."

you: (a bit perplexed) "Oh wow...what store did you get this from?"

him:  "blah blah you don't need to know.."

you:  "hey babe I'm confused I got sometime very similar at Target yesterday.  Perhaps I have the receipt in my purse...would that help to clarify things?"

For stuff like this I'm not a fan of directly contradicting.  I'm more of a fan of "holding open the doorway for truth" and seeing if they walk through it.

Here is the thing:

This is likely a place for radical acceptance.

This is also a place to do some soul searching.  

If it doesn't matter to you..all good.  

It does seem to matter greatly that he conforms to your version of "truth".

A boundary would be...I don't do (blank) with untruthful people.  

So maybe that means things you get...you deliver directly to the people involved.

I get the vibe there is some work to do in this entire area of "getting credit".  (note this would tick me off big time and I'm thankful that my wife doesn't do this much)

In fact more than half of the time this is an area I appreciate my wife as she will say things like

"Hey kids..look what Daddy got at store.  What doe we say?"

and often I'll say things like

"Hey kids what can we do to show Mommy appreciation for the meal she put together tonight?"

or if things are unclear

"Who were the kitchen chef's tonight?"  (and people will answer up but we train them to answer up and boost their team mates)

So D14 might say "I worked on it and D7 was  massive help rolling out the dough"

I'm wondering if changing the way you parent about this and asking for your hubby's help would indirectly help this.

Direct confrontation rarely works.

Let's keep exploring this.  FF thinks there is stuff here for a "victory".

Hi FF,

This is all good. Helpful examples. And, mostly radical acceptance.

I’m okay with him taking credit and I constantly am telling kids dad did this or that and was thoughtful, usually in front of him since he needs this “reward”.  

The small gift wasn’t a great example (it didn’t really matter), but hypocrisy is prevalent — I’m thinking this may be more narcissistic rather than BPDish, but correcting unleashes the BPD dysregulation. I’m not sure what I’m trying to say...hope you can figure that out.

A big example would be my past.  You know, one long term bf I slept with. He did same and with more people. I am an immoral slut and he was just doing what guys do.

But, he has also had our DDs walk a very narrow moral path. Balked at bfs, judged harshly these relationships. DDs don’t want to share with dad. I’ve discussed with him but he’ll twist my view that they are doing normal teenage things (dating) with my immoral past and that I’m trying to tramp them up. Nothing could be further from the truth. I thought he would come around as he got used to them dating. He thinks he has but they do not. He wants full names (so he can search them), religion, what they’re studying, where they work, what their parents do. And then extrapolates facts about them that are often incorrect. Couple this with H getting people confused and he can create a pretty poor dynamic.

Then he will regale us with stories about all the sex and drugs he was around in hs. Coke and alcohol and kids full of drugs. I suspect much of it isn’t even true, but he likes a good story. Thinks he sounds “cool” (you’d think I would know what the kids call it these days, but I don’t). Sometimes he didn’t do drugs, other times he was high. Depends on point he’s trying to make.

DDs need to be moral. But he’ll put on a raunchy movie in front of them (they are adults) but it’s weird and uncomfortable and he’ll just laugh. So much.

DS who is younger, he thinks should be a total player. He is a sweet kid (he is a kid) and I think he should learn to respect women.  But he’s a boy, so the rules will be different.

In hindsight I feel like a fool because I didn’t understand how deep this moral hypocrisy ran. I thought he just needed time to adjust to his DDs dating. The kicker is he wonders why they don’t have a lot of dates. They don’t always share and have a few hang ups around it. I feel like a total failure to them, too.

Anyway, this is a bigger example of hypocrisy.

The little stuff I don’t care.  I don’t need credit and I can just let it go.

Thanks FF.  Lots of thinking to do.  

[UBPDHelp]

Hi BabyDucks,

thanks so much for coming back and explaining again.  I appreciate that.   I've been thinking about untreated serious mental illness and hypocrisy.    what does it mean.   how do they relate.    it's been interesting.    I don't think you are being challenging.    this is really tough stuff.   and you are digging into it at a very deep level.

Quote from: UBPDHelp on May 07, 2020, 05:58:17 AM
I do understand that I can’t change him. But what is the boundary? What do I get from the boundary?

There might be no external boundary here.    this might not be the tool you want to apply.    the tool you might want to try is validation.     validate heavily what he did do.    even that might not have an impact.

Okay, thanks. That’s what I feel. Just need to emotionally accept this.

And, yes, I make a point of saying thank you about even the most irrelevant things because he needs it. Not a big deal.

Thank you for making the tea. Kids isn’t the tea dad made great? 

Repeat. I still fear I am growing the NPD beast, so will try to assuage those fears and accept this internal boundary.

Quote from: UBPDHelp on May 07, 2020, 05:58:17 AM

I’m not being flippant.  I really don’t know what this boundary is or what I get from it. I don’t mean, I get to take credit, but is the win, peace?

there might not be anything to do.   there may be no boundary.   your H takes credit for something that is not his,... you  might say to yourself... oh I recognize this for what it is.    and that's it.     that might be all there is.   the thing to do might be to accept what you can not change.    the win here might be to protect the kids and protect your own state of mind by having a deep understanding of the frailty of his psyche.

Good reminder. I have to remember that underneath the loud voice and jabbing words is a frail psyche. It seems easy for me to forget when the presentation is so cutting. Reminder.

Quote from: UBPDHelp on May 06, 2020, 10:20:45 PM
I just can’t wrap my head around the disordered frame of mind.

so this right here.    this is where the struggle is, IMHO.     

my definition of hypocrisy is the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform.     and I am not totally sure how that applies to a person suffering from a mental illness.    personally I never considered my Ex to be insincere  because her standards were so fluid, so transitory and so illusionary that I didn't consider them real.     It took a while to see but I eventually viewed much of what she did and said to be frantic attempts to feel better.    and I couldn't begrudge her that.

I agree with your definition. I add the hypocrisy of expecting credit for every single thing and giving none in return. I do thank him, do tell kids dad did this or that. He doesn’t have to say it lest it won’t be said.

It’s not that he will never give credit. It’s just so disproportionate and then add him taking credit others deserve.

Internal boundary, deep breaths.

it took a while to understand and accept but I came to see the demand for rights, commitments and behaviors from others that she was not willing or able to reciprocate as part of the bedrock of this illness.  for me it wasn't hypocrisy it was a symptom.

This is good reframing. I will see if I can apply this to my feelings when these things happen. Thank you.

Quote from: UBPDHelp on May 07, 2020, 05:58:17 AM
To say he’s responsible for his perception is true, but when the rest of us deal with the fall out of his distorted view of himself, his perception affects us all. 

oh absolutely.    totally true.   and again this is where the focus turns to you (and the kids)    how much damage is being done... to you... to the kids.    how much can you tolerate.    how much can you work within?    how can you develop a sense of inner calm and inner peace that is separate from the disordered, dysregulated behavior and environment.     how can you help the children develop robust and healthy self esteem ?    once the answers to those questions start to become clear...   decisions will be easier.    it might be too soon to try and figure out what "the answer" is with too many of the puzzle pieces missing.  give yourself more time to process this.

Sadly, in hindsight, I suspect a lot of damage. Perhaps why I’m so sensitive to it.

Admittedly I’ve argued (prior to knowing any tools) a small point. Refused to let him take something from me. Not something I needed credit for but when he took credit, I wouldn’t just allow him to take it. Small. And my oldest and I discussed and I said same thing. If I keep letting him take more from me, the line just keeps moving that he did everything and I did nothing.

Deep breath again.

Thanks BabyDucks.

[UBPDHelp]

Maybe there's some insight to why your H took credit for the birthday purchases.

I don't know your financial arrangement with your H. I have a job, but it pays less than my H's job. I also was a stay at home mom when the kids were younger. My H thankfully has provided for the family. In return, I have taken on the housework, child care, etc. I feel that each person needs to contribute to the well being of the family-- but also know that this contribution can be in different ways. I like to be a team player. Maybe he's the pitcher, and I'm second baseman , but we are each essential parts of the team.

That's not how my H perceived it. He felt he was not  recognized for the fact that he was the one who made the money in the home. That's a crucial position and I fully recognize that without him doing that, we would not have shelter, or food, or clothes, or nice things. I also am capable of doing that as well, but this was the arrangement he prefered. ( I had a career as well). It was actually his decision to have this arrangement. He didn't want to have anything to do with housework, child care.

Even though it was his decision, he felt resentful and unappreciated. It seemed in every discussion I heard " I make the money".  We have a budget that we agreed on, and each month, I had a sum to use for household expenses, kids, clothing, and things I might need or want. But the kids' and household needs came first. But to my H, it felt as if each month, he was handing over a sum of money to me- all for me. That made no sense as it was obvious to him where it went- but he felt that way.

I don't know your arrangement with your H, but if he provides a large part of your household budget, then, even though you may have gone to the store to get the birthday items, in his mind, he bought them if he contributed the money, and he wants recognition and appreciation for that. If that's the case, why not let him have it?

We all need affirmation. I say pick your battles. If you H is taking credit for the things you give to your kids, then maybe he needs to be recognized. You could just let that be.

Hi notwendy,

Yep, that’s our set up as well.  Mostly his preference and I was okay with it.

He, however, owns his own business, that he hates, and has simply refused to work for these two and a half months. So only way to pay for things is with money I have saved/inherited. He could work, but he won’t.

And for this little one, for me it wasn’t the money. I work from home but don’t make near as much. But I work for free doing everything with house and kids. Have you ever seen the value they equate to all that?  So, while I don’t make as many real dollars, I’m definitely earning my keep.

This little thing was me thinking of something special, ordering it and then him taking credit. Why not at least say your mom and I ?

It’s a little thing. Not even that upset about it, it was just a recent example.

That said, I totally get what you’re saying about why he may perceive it that way. I can accept that and even understand it (despite him having no actual money at the moment).

This little one I can chalk up and not worry about.

Thanks for sharing.

[UBPDHelp]

Lots of examples of "kernel of truth" (to you).  

You can see how he may think it is more than a "kernel".

I was reading something from Gottman the other day and he was saying that "appreciation is the antidote for contempt".

I'm not really focusing on contempt here, instead I hope you can see how powerful appreciation is.

Hi FF,

True. I can see the kernel of truth. I dare say, kernels of truth are a big no no for him. Another hypocrisy, but one I am willing to accept.

I do really try to show appreciation (not returned). I will try harder and dispel fear of growing the narcissist.

More deep breaths.