He tossed out insults at the slightest pushback Part 3

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=345120.0;all

I'll second the motion for a good deal of centering time.  The whirl of crazy can make it hard to sort out what is real and important and what is "noise".  Often our raw feelings help confuse that as well.

Many times (most of the time) it's helpful to "back up" and look at the big picture ask some simple questions.  As Babyducks has below.

Would you agree that you are functioning as his accountant.   I would argue "overfunctioning".  When he decides to whirl into financial town, he asks questions and the floodgates of information flow out from you (and of course he insults you and rewrites history).



Several posts back I tried to inject some humor and also make a point.  I don't think the point "landed"



I was purposeful to use the language "his cook" to see if I got a "hey...wait I minute..I'm not "his".

That's what I'm talking about when I talk about big picture.  I'm going to venture out on a limb and suggest that UBPDHelp was focused on details and missed the big picture thing about "being his".

So...after some centering time, ask yourself if "being his (fill in the blank) is a role you are willing to continue playing?  Should you continue playing it?

Last:  I obviously tend to be on the optimistic side of dealing with pwBPDs and many of my comments can easily be taken as trying to "save he r/s" and "improve the r/s".  

It's important to clarify the goal is to "improve" UBPDhelp's role in her family.  That's very separate from her choices on the status of her marriage and her decisions about her marriage.

Best,

FF

Agree.  I appreciate your very optimistic approach.  If I hadn’t been willing to approach from this direction, I may have never been able to find an answer (not THE answer).  At this point it is simply removing doubt on every chance given.

To go back to the dirty dish...he did remove it. It was where he, and only he, sits so it impacted him.

But 6 new glasses appeared. He “demanded” I take out the garbage. It was pulled from the bin but not taken outside. I am sitting in training all day without hardly a break. When I had five minutes to grab a drink, he chided me about it.

But here’s a question...what would anyone else have done when they saw a garbage, their wife/husband was busy and they were sitting on their duff chatting on Facebook?  Truly. The fact that he on any level thinks that’s acceptable is beyond ridiculous. Thoughts?

[UBPDHelp]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=345120.0;all

I'll second the motion for a good deal of centering time.  The whirl of crazy can make it hard to sort out what is real and important and what is "noise".  Often our raw feelings help confuse that as well.

Many times (most of the time) it's helpful to "back up" and look at the big picture ask some simple questions.  As Babyducks has below.

Would you agree that you are functioning as his accountant.   I would argue "overfunctioning".  When he decides to whirl into financial town, he asks questions and the floodgates of information flow out from you (and of course he insults you and rewrites history).



Several posts back I tried to inject some humor and also make a point.  I don't think the point "landed"



I was purposeful to use the language "his cook" to see if I got a "hey...wait I minute..I'm not "his".

That's what I'm talking about when I talk about big picture.  I'm going to venture out on a limb and suggest that UBPDHelp was focused on details and missed the big picture thing about "being his".

So...after some centering time, ask yourself if "being his (fill in the blank) is a role you are willing to continue playing?  Should you continue playing it?

Last:  I obviously tend to be on the optimistic side of dealing with pwBPDs and many of my comments can easily be taken as trying to "save he r/s" and "improve the r/s".  

It's important to clarify the goal is to "improve" UBPDhelp's role in her family.  That's very separate from her choices on the status of her marriage and her decisions about her marriage.

Best,

FF

Agree.  I appreciate your very optimistic approach.  If I hadn’t been willing to approach from this direction, I may have never been able to find an answer (not THE answer).  At this point it is simply removing doubt on every chance given.

To go back to the dirty dish...he did remove it. It was where he, and only he, sits so it impacted him.

But 6 new glasses appeared. He “demanded” I take out the garbage. It was pulled from the bin but not taken outside. I am sitting in training all day without hardly a break. When I had five minutes to grab a drink, he chided me about it.

But here’s a question...what would anyone else have done when they saw a garbage, their wife/husband was busy and they were sitting on their duff chatting on Facebook?  Truly. The fact that he on any level thinks that’s acceptable is beyond ridiculous. Thoughts?

[babyducks]

Does he know he’s abusing?

No.   Probably not.   He isn't self aware.  He is insecure and believes he is entitled to rights and responsibilities he can not grant to others.

When the kids have expressed their feelings I will now be complicit in letting the abuse to continue. That I cannot allow.

Understood.   You are being heard.

  

This isn’t a personal need. I am quite concerned that he will twist the truth and absolve himself of financial responsibility on these things. He’s a super aggressive litigator.  He knows how to spin an argument. He can be charming. I’m hoping I can establish joint responsibility.  I hope that makes sense.

lets pull this ball of yarn apart a little bit.    He will try to absolve himself of financial responsibility.    You don't have to establish joint responsibility by law it already exists.  think this through.   if the bank records were pulled and audited would there be any evidence of financial malfeasance?    The mortgage is in his name only.   He is already responsible.    You can try to insulate yourself and the children from his behavior but not solve it.     more deep breaths please.

I like this. I need time to sort out how this works. Give me some time.

of course.   all the time you need.   what I am suggesting is that as you stretch your intellectual and emotional muscles they become more nimble.   this is like learning a new language.   it's training your mind to think in new and often uncomfortable ways.   it's broadening and deepening your perspectives and understandings so that are not going down the same rabbit trail over and over again.   its about pattern recognition and doing new and healthier things.

But here’s a question...what would anyone else have done when they saw a garbage, their wife/husband was busy and they were sitting on their duff chatting on Facebook?  Truly. The fact that he on any level thinks that’s acceptable is beyond ridiculous. Thoughts?

I think you already know the answer to this question.    this is going down the same well worn rabbit trail.    it's comfortable.   it's familiar.    it validates your sense of frustration.   it's only mildly productive at this point though.   you have exercised the same intellectual muscles over and over.    conflict avoidance.   over functioning.    accepting responsibility for everything.  abdicating your own needs.   those muscles are overworking and pulling you out of balance.

I think it's time to stretch other intellectual and emotional muscles.   and let them start to pull you back into balance.

'ducks

[formflier]

To go back to the dirty dish...he did remove it. It was where he, and only he, sits so it impacted him.
 

 

Yes yes...double and triple yes!

Very happy on so many levels for you!

He “demanded” I take out the garbage. It was pulled from the bin but not taken outside. I am sitting in training all day without hardly a break. When I had five minutes to grab a drink, he chided me about it.

Can you give some he said she said about this...he chides..you say..he says..etc etc

I'm hoping you stayed big picture and said something like "I'll consider it later when I have time."

(very neutral...no promise...no denial, leaves it all in his lap to sort out)

Of course, I wouldn't be opposed to something stronger and clearer..like "No" (it is a complete sentence)

Best,

FF
 

[UBPDHelp]

Yes yes...double and triple yes!

Very happy on so many levels for you!

You’d think, right. Instead he’s doubled down. Threw out one plate and then next day left two. And when I didn’t throw out, he threw on the floor which is where they sit today.

Can you give some he said she said about this...he chides..you say..he says..etc etc

I'm hoping you stayed big picture and said something like "I'll consider it later when I have time."

(very neutral...no promise...no denial, leaves it all in his lap to sort out)

Of course, I wouldn't be opposed to something stronger and clearer..like "No" (it is a complete sentence)

Best,

FF
 

H - The house is a pig sty (it’s not, but six people for 4 months nonstop means a lot of picking up). I hate when there’s garbage just sitting there. F’ing take it out.

Me - I can see how that would be upsetting. I didn’t have time to take it out yet. If it’s really bothering you, maybe you could run it out?

H — wtf, I hate this house, I hate this garbage, nothing fits, if you pull the bag then you take it out. Wtf. (Storms off).

Yes, that’s the exchange.

[UBPDHelp]

And then...

Two days of trying to convince me I should quit my new job. Am I sure I really want to work full time?  Am I sure I like it?  Is it really what you want?

And then today after sending him a quick thank you for something nice he did, the response I get is rage texting that I moved an appointment (it interfered with my training), questions about what realtor to sell house (we haven’t discussed, he keeps using this to “tell” me we’re getting divorced. And then tells me because I moved the appointment that “if I want a war, I can f’ing have a war!”

So, yes, this isn’t really better. It’s not and lodging fear and intimidation at me is taking a serious toll on my health — physical and emotional.

How could I possibly go on?

[babyducks]

H - The house is a pig sty (it’s not, but six people for 4 months nonstop means a lot of picking up). I hate when there’s garbage just sitting there. F’ing take it out.

I'm going to keep going back to JADE.     with a light sprinkling of Validation.   please consider slowing down and think about deepening your understanding and expression of these two tools.   

Me - I can see how that would be upsetting.

Don't validate this.   It's abusive.   It's controlling.  It's manipulative.    Never validate anything like this.

"the house is a pig sty."     Reality is No It's Not.  It's a busy household full of active people.    He is going to over write reality with his version.    Why?    What does he get out of this changing reality?   He gets control.  Control of the situation and control of you.    It's manipulative.  He hates it when there is garbage sitting there.  Who is he trying to make responsible for fixing his feelings.   You.   You have to make him feel better by adapting to what he wants.   that's a bunch of baloney.    don't buy into this.   It's complete nonsense. Do Not Validate Abuse.

I didn’t have time to take it out yet.

JADE JADE JADE.    Don't Justify why the bag is there.   Don't Defend why the bag is there.    Don't Explain why the bag is there.   Don't Accept that you are responsible for the bag.

If it’s really bothering you, maybe you could run it out?.

look at the uneven power balance in this exchange.    who is driving?   who is responding?   You do not want to engage with him at this level.  turn this back at him.    hand the responsibility back to him.   

H — wtf, I hate this house, I hate this garbage, nothing fits, if you pull the bag then you take it out. Wtf. (Storms off).

do not pick up these gauntlets when they are thrown at you.   

'ducks

[formflier]

I think you and others should consider trying to dial back on validation when he is upset.  (please others weigh in)

Consider the plate issue (DO NOT pickup anything he has left out...anything)

Here is my idea on trash and other issues (again...looking for others to either punt it or pick up the direction and run with it)

First can you see the JADE in your answer...kinda acknowledging it was your deal and you just didn't have time.

What if you gave this answer

Him:  Blah blah f'ing take it out

You:  It would mean a lot to me if you can handle it.

It's honest, it doesn't get into a thing with him about him telling you what to do, it doesn't say yes and it doesn't say no.

Now, on trash and other things, I'm not opposed to you doing it when you have time.  The big picture is picking up stuff he left out..that's a no.

Best,

FF

(looks like a cross post with Ducks)

[UBPDHelp]

I hear you. It’s so hard.

He knows I’m tired and stressed and simply deciding now is when he needs to go after things he can do, it’s simply exhausting.

In the moment, it’s just so hard to keep straight HOW to talk to him.

1. Other people would have known I was busy
2. Other people would have helped and just taken it out

It wouldn’t even be a conversation.

If I tell him he can take it out if it’s bothering him, he will full on dysregulate. It truly feels like lose lose.

And truly, I just don’t want to do it. It’s downright exhausting, terrifying and is zero representation of love and respect.

[formflier]

If I tell him he can take it out if it’s bothering him, he will full on dysregulate. It truly feels like lose lose.

 

FOG

FEAR OBLIGATION GUILT

This is the fear talking. 

Did he dysregulate over the plate?  He might have...he is behaving badly.

Take care of yourself and try not to make decisions based on FOG.

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

FOG

FEAR OBLIGATION GUILT

This is the fear talking. 

Did he dysregulate over the plate?  He might have...he is behaving badly.

Take care of yourself and try not to make decisions based on FOG.

Best,

FF

Yes, fear. I don’t like to be screamed at or for him to respond by throwing or breaking things.

I don’t want cloaked threats about selling the house because I moved an appointment.

It’s abusive.

Obligation...not to him. To myself and mostly to my children.

Guilt...no, none. I have done nothing to deserve this treatment. Nothing. I’m not a horrible person. I do so much and I simply don’t deserve this.

I don’t deserve to gauge my every move on whether or not he’s going to get pissed off and whether my children will have to witness it. So, do I do a PLEASE READty job with the tools sometimes because I can’t bear dealing with him?  Sure.  Still don’t deserve it.

It sucks. So badly.

[babyducks]

1. Other people would have known I was busy
2. Other people would have helped and just taken it out

It wouldn’t even be a conversation.

He literally has taken out 1 bag in 10 years.

UBPDHelp,

who are you fighting with here?    Him or your own perceptions?   

Cognitive dissonance is painful.   It's exhausting.     "Cognitive dissonance occurs when a person holds two or more contradictory beliefs, or ideas."    When we try to hold two contradictory ideas we spend mental energy trying to balance them.

trying to hold the idea that "Other people would have helped and just taken it out"   when he "literally has taken out 1 bag in 10 years"  is cognitive dissonance.   it hurts emotionally and mentally.

of course you do not deserve to be treated this way.    You did nothing wrong.    His "F*ing take it out" is abusive, threatening rude language and entirely inappropriate.

improving the tools will lessen the dissonance.   it will help combat the exhaustion.

of course you won't use the tools perfectly.  no one does.   especially in the heat of the moment.   the more nimble you become with them the better for you.

'ducks

[formflier]

To add to "of course you won't use tools perfectly". 

I rarely do it perfectly or close to it.  What I do have is confidence that the tools generally work, especially if applied consistently.

That also gives me the confidence to relax and "be me", to be less mindful of exactly what I'm going to say "all the time". 

Then when I realize I've made a booboo (and many times I really have upon reflection) I can try to genuinely apologize/make amends.  That works some of the time. 

If it turns out I've triggered some sort of BPDish thing, then root around in my tool bag and see what tool is best...and move forward with my life.

It's certainly not ideal...but it's generally not EXHAUSTING.

EXHAUSTED is a bad place to be, primarily because it affects your outlook, which affects you tone, decision making and a whole host of other things

What we are asking you to do is a hard thing, many of the muscles we are asking you to "train" are going to be grumpy and hurt...but they will get better.  You can do this!

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Hello all,

Just a quick update.  I’ve been super busy at work, all good, no complaints.

H is still trying to disrupt. Am I really sure I want to work FT? Disparaging things about the company. He researches and finds one disgruntled ex-employee and expands it. Truth is everyone there has been there for years (average like 10-15 that I’ve spoken with and work in my department). Running theme is no one leaves so rarely open positions. Even the few people who were negatively impacted by pandemic were given new and temporary responsibilities to keep them employed.

I’ve been assigned my rep and now H keeps asking for his name, etc., so he can research him. Ugh. He doesn’t say this but it’s what he always does. I’ve avoided thus far, but he is relentless so debating telling him the wrong person/name or just telling him to get it over with. It’s totally unnecessary but the fallout on this particular issue is not worth it.

Side update...I spoke with the first L.  Feel very comfortable with her.  She is calm, kind, compassionate and seems to have good strategies. I don’t feel fully capable at making good decisions so worry that although she feels comfortable, it doesn’t mean she’s necessarily the right L. On the other hand, she could be the best. I’m hoping that if H ever goes back to work, I can set up an in person meeting or at least a video call.  

Here is the info from the L thread, if any interest...you may want to scroll midway to get to the actual call...

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=344687.0

The first plate got picked up. More have arrived and remain including his fast food bags. For going on nearly a week. Will not help with any household chores. Nothing new, but you might think now that I’m working FT, he could find some way to help. Of course this is a passive way to disrupt the job (which equals some independence).  

Last week he started again with me, during my workday.  I had moved a service appointment and he was p!ssed. I was in my office attending a long training session and the utility called to confirm the appointment for the next day. Because they have to access in my temp office and I also had training the next day, I quickly asked them to reschedule to next available date. Worked another 4 hours, made dinner and then relaxed for a bit and went to bed. Totally forgot about the call...and to tell H of change.

The next day, I sent him a quick text thanking him for doing something nice and asked a quick question about it. Nothing big, nothing inflammatory...just simple question for his opinion/thoughts.

He replied he had no idea and then asks about the service appointment.  Followed in same message by asking me which real estate broker I want to use. (We have only discussed selling house when he’s aggressively threatening divorce, so this a disruption attempt...not really selling house (yet).

I replied with the new service appointment date and that I’d think about the other. Very short, non emotional, to the point.

His reply?  Rage text about the service appointment and swearing and exclamations. More swear words and then announcing if I want a war, I’ve got one.

I replied calmly about service appointment and stating clearly that I had not said I wanted a war.

I got the ... that a text was coming a few times, but he never sent one.

I go about my day (some very unsettled freaking out...it’s like an abused dog, I’m sorry). When I take an afternoon break, he starts in on me about the appointment. And then about selling the house. I stay calm and give very calm replies. It turns a lot of ways — I’m sure trying to find the reaction from me.

He then asks what I want. I tell him I don’t know, but not this. He’s...drumroll please...shocked.

Ultimately I let him have it about his behavior, about him not working for months, not being available to discuss household/family issues. Telling him how unapproachable he is when he is mad. That it’s not okay to say the things he says to me. I demand to know what the F he thinks it makes me feel like. What the F does he think it accomplishes?  Does he actually think he can call me a disgusting vile hillbilly slut AND think I in anyway  want to be close to him?  He is confused (or is he?).

Another drumroll please...

He never meant to make me feel this way.  I’m the only thing he cares about. Do I think he would still be here if he didn’t love me?  The reason he’s been so upset about Covid is because of my autoimmune disease, I might die. Seems caring. Not true and it also is semi making me responsible for his Covid collapse.

He doesn’t want to break up the family.

Other than being totally untrue, it is also the predicted behavior.

Now he says he’s working and “back to regular income”. We’ve seen 1 week of regular, return remains to be seen. He’s trying to entice better with a big settlement coming, etc.

Since I’m at a new job and no where to go, will take some improved behavior...but remember the week old dishes and fast food?  Yep, still there.

He’s also directed some anger towards our oldest. I’ve tried to help with strategies. They are moving out in the next month so trying to hold on til then.

And the delightful last episode. H wanted a specific colored face mask and asked if I could order (I ordered for the kids and have done a ton of research). His mask = him going back to work. I jump all over it. I also want a new one because I bought several with ties instead of ear loops thinking they were adjustable. Decided they were mostly just a pain.

I can only find masks the color H wants or crazy patterns (in the size, style and in the arrival date). I get same color, but different. Mine have a small star design on the side.

When I tell H, he becomes enraged I got the same color (think common color). He yells at me. I stay calm. He storms out of the room, starts banging around the kitchen, comes in drinking one of my drinks (I don’t care, I offered it to him, he refused, but now it’s a punishment...I still don’t care he’s drinking it...jokes on him). Then he looks at our oldest and asks if they want to do a day trip this weekend (he’s mad I’m going to pack up our second today.  He wanted to come, we politely refused).  He thinks the day trip is a punishment, but honestly I relish the idea of a day of him being gone. Jokes on him again.

In my defense, all my snarky comments are internalized. I don’t engage his behavior. There is no reward. I don’t bend, I don’t apologize. I just sit and let him run the gamut.

Yesterday he told off his partner in the most scathing way. Accused him of lying about pay (guess what? Partner shoulders the financial entirely). H said I told him he didn’t have income in February.  I said, no I told you March and April and then reduced in May and June. He screamed at partner about February and said I told him. I told him no I never did (I didn’t). Question — why doesn’t he know when he got paid?  

I refuse to take the responsibility.  I exit. He did calm down and didn’t bring it up again.

All of this to show his very predictable behavior. It is exhausting.

So much for being short...bless you if you made it here.  

[babyducks]

I’ve been assigned my rep and now H keeps asking for his name, etc., so he can research him. Ugh. He doesn’t say this but it’s what he always does. I’ve avoided thus far, but he is relentless so debating telling him the wrong person/name or just telling him to get it over with. It’s totally unnecessary but the fallout on this particular issue is not worth it.

how about you tell him "I won't be providing his name,... it's not your concern, it's mine and I will take care of it."

Totally forgot about the call...and to tell H of change.

   H wanted a specific colored face mask and asked if I could order (I ordered for the kids and have done a ton of research). His mask = him going back to work. I jump all over it.

I am going to suggest you are still over functioning and being overly responsible in the relationship.     It's understandable.    For years you have shouldered more than your share of the burden of making things work.     I'm going to suggest you start to detach from all this responsibility and effort.     Detaching is an art.   Its something to work at/for.

  Question — why doesn’t he know when he got paid? 

I refuse to take the responsibility.  I exit. He did calm down and didn’t bring it up again.

so is what you are telling us here is when you don't over function,  when you don't shoulder the responsibility and exit he calms down?   

[formflier]

how about you tell him "I won't be providing his name,... it's not your concern, it's mine and I will take care of it."

Yes...

Here is a question.  Does he use "lawyer talk" around the house?

For instance, I think you should say the above "one time".  After that I wonder how he would respond to "Asked and answered.."

The key to all of this is to answer in a neutral way.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

 but he is relentless so debating telling him the wrong person/name or just telling him to get it over with.  

Please don't ever give him false information.  Nothing good will come of this.  

Sadly...FF did this early on, much to my detriment.  I know about "relentless" questioning all too well.

So, in the heat of the moment if I said something like "I don't know anything about that..." and then later on it turns out I did...well...now my wife goes from having "the idea" that I'm a liar to have "proof".

I was so scared of saying "I'm not comfortable discussing this with you..." and yes she went bonkers the first time I told her this (and unwisely "explained myself)...but honestly saying this with major JADE is WAAAAY better than a lie.  (please don't JADE...I'm making a point, not suggesting an action)

This is a dirty plate moment.  Hard boundary.  He doesn't get let into your work life.

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

how about you tell him "I won't be providing his name,... it's not your concern, it's mine and I will take care of it."

He hasn’t brought it up again...yet. I absolutely believe that’s the correct response. I also know that will entirely pi$$ him off. It always becomes the lesser of two evils, but I guess that’s the point. I, in the immediacy, want to avoid his outburst, in the long game, I want to never hear his demand in the first place.

And bigger, why should I even have to navigate all of this in the first place?  This isn’t mutual discussion and mutual respect.

I am going to suggest you are still over functioning and being overly responsible in the relationship.     It's understandable.    For years you have shouldered more than your share of the burden of making things work.     I'm going to suggest you start to detach from all this responsibility and effort.     Detaching is an art.   Its something to work at/for.

I suppose. Some things are betterment for the family. He does some (although I struggle at the moment to find anything recent) and I try to help where it’s my wheelhouse. I’m not sure if it’s reasonable to draw a total line in the sand on these types of things. Idk...lmk your thoughts.

That said, I am detaching from a lot of the responsibilities that should be shared. He’s not really stepping up, so things are going undone. I don’t really care.

so is what you are telling us here is when you don't over function,  when you don't shoulder the responsibility and exit he calms down?  

Yes.

But tell me...

Is this all so much worse because I kept trying to avoid his outburst...thereby my fault (at least much of it) for creating this dynamic?

Or,

Should most of it never happened in the first place?

Like idk if my naïveté growing up in a family where I only saw my parents argue two times that I can recall (about two menial things born of frustration and zero fireworks, just a squabble), where my parents loved each other and were kind and caring to each other — did this just wholly unprepare me for real life?  (H has suggested something was wrong with my parents that they never fought really. I could share his insight...ugh).

Thanks ‘ducks!

[UBPDHelp]

Yes...

Here is a question.  Does he use "lawyer talk" around the house?

For instance, I think you should say the above "one time".  After that I wonder how he would respond to "Asked and answered.."

The key to all of this is to answer in a neutral way.

Best,

FF

Hi FF,

Yes, he does. I have told him to stop interrogating MANY times and to not do exactly that.

Last week I let him have it. I told him his behavior may be “okay” at work but absolutely not acceptable at home. He’s heard it before, but honestly I don’t care anymore because what the he! am I fighting for?  To stick around being called names?  Hard pass.

Day 8 count — dirty dishes and fast food bags exactly where he left them.

I went with our second to move out of their apartment. Five months of rent, no one home. He wanted to come. Not necessary, kid two did NOT want him there at all. It’s a two hour drive, about 4 hours to pack, throw out, load up and clean. Gone about 9 hours or so. Came home, him laying on the couch watching tv and not one helpful thing done. Still couldn’t clean up his dirty stuff.

And, when he tried to come and I told him no (he was pi$$ed), he decided he and our oldest would take a trip this weekend. He said it to try to rile me, I told him to have a good time. Was hoping he’d go so I could have 8 hours alone with kids 2-4 in the house. Heaven. Guess what?  Just hot air threatening bs.  I hope he proves me wrong.

It’s ridiculous behavior. Exhibits zero respect.  I can see his attempts at manipulation from a mile away now. Not that I don’t get surprised or reaaalllly frustrated by it sometimes, but it’s pathetic. And I’m feeling more and more pathetic dealing with it.

[UBPDHelp]

Please don't ever give him false information.  Nothing good will come of this.  

Agree. I pride myself on being honest.  It’s not a moral high road, I just am generally not all that interesting so nothing to hide  . But there is very much a dog-who’s-been-kicked mentality when dealing with him.

He’ll give me 12 reasons why he “needs” this info. But, I’m not giving it.

Sadly...FF did this early on, much to my detriment.  I know about "relentless" questioning all too well.

So, in the heat of the moment if I said something like "I don't know anything about that..." and then later on it turns out I did...well...now my wife goes from having "the idea" that I'm a liar to have "proof".

I was so scared of saying "I'm not comfortable discussing this with you..." and yes she went bonkers the first time I told her this (and unwisely "explained myself)...but honestly saying this with major JADE is WAAAAY better than a lie.  (please don't JADE...I'm making a point, not suggesting an action)

I get it. Totally. But it is so hard being afraid of how someone is going to react all of the time. A person who is unable to manage their reactions at all.

This is a dirty plate moment.  Hard boundary.  He doesn't get let into your work life.

Dirty plate will apparently be a continual reminder. It will sit there for eternity.

[babyducks]

He hasn’t brought it up again...yet. I absolutely believe that’s the correct response. I also know that will entirely pi$$ him off. It always becomes the lesser of two evils, but I guess that’s the point. I, in the immediacy, want to avoid his outburst, in the long game, I want to never hear his demand in the first place.

Peace at any price comes with a cost.   if you give him the name, he will likely do what you are thinking.   go research the person, come back with some slam or innuendo.   come back to you and belittle this person or attack them verbally... all to get what he wants.   so in a sense you aren't avoiding his outburst, you are kicking the can down the road.

to me, from my experience; there are times when appeasement is certainly not the right choice.   the cost of the momentary peace is too high.   I am letting someone come aggressively across my boundaries and create an environment that is adversarial, demeaning or abusive.   

I also think there are times to let things go... when digging my feet into the floor and refusing to budge just generates more conflict.

How to tell the difference?    for me it's when someone is challenging my ability to be my authentic self.  that's when I push back.   

for example if someone was questioning my job, and the people I work for?   well then they are waaaaaaaay over my boundaries.   this is my business.  I am in charge of making decisions and judgements about what I do and what's best for me.  we can certainly discuss it... in a respectful way... you do not get to bulldoze your opinion onto my stuff.     

And bigger, why should I even have to navigate all of this in the first place?  

I can never quite tell... is this a rhetorical question?   a reminder to yourself that things are not normal in your family life?    do you want thoughts on this?

Is this all so much worse because I kept trying to avoid his outburst...thereby my fault (at least much of it) for creating this dynamic?

No.     This is not so much worse because you tried to avoid his outbursts.   While you have a role in this dynamic you didn't create it.  Most simply put, he created this dynamic.   Much of what you describe is abusive behavior.  What you are asking here is akin to the 'if I hadn't made him mad he wouldn't have hit me' thinking from an abuse victim.   if I had responded better he wouldn't be verbally toxic.    abuse is abuse is abuse.   you didn't create it.   you didn't make it worse.   you didn't respond the way you would have liked because you didn't have the information you needed to make better choices.   now you do.

Should most of it never happened in the first place?

only if your husband gets hit with a magic wand and changes into some one he is not.   this was bound to happen.   I'm going to say this was unavoidable.    i'm going to be blunt.   accept your husband for who and what he is.   he has been exhibiting traits of a mental disorder for years now ... 5-7 years from what you write.   consider reframing this into more realistic concept.    this is magical thinking.   

— did this just wholly unprepare me for real life?  

most of us where emotionally immature when we got here.  I was.    one thing I can say is that being in a disordered relationship keeps you emotionally immature.   but when the relationship fails you grow up real quick.   painfully but quick.   we tend to pick people who are at the same level as us in emotional maturity.   it might be naiveté, it might be that we never really bothered to look hard at some of the things that were going on.

in the end though, it is our responsibility to do the hard work of understanding ourselves and how to make better choices for us.   its up to us to figure out how to handle our fear of being raged at - not hope someone else will change to make us feel better.

'ducks 

[UBPDHelp]

Peace at any price comes with a cost.   if you give him the name, he will likely do what you are thinking.   go research the person, come back with some slam or innuendo.   come back to you and belittle this person or attack them verbally... all to get what he wants.   so in a sense you aren't avoiding his outburst, you are kicking the can down the road.

Agree.  I did not see the ultimate cost and then habitually tried to avoid the immediate issue.  No more. I won’t be perfect, but I’m not doing one darn thing that warrants his behavior so he gets to deal with why he responds/behaves the way he does.

to me, from my experience; there are times when appeasement is certainly not the right choice.   the cost of the momentary peace is too high.   I am letting someone come aggressively across my boundaries and create an environment that is adversarial, demeaning or abusive.   

I also think there are times to let things go... when digging my feet into the floor and refusing to budge just generates more conflict.

How to tell the difference?    for me it's when someone is challenging my ability to be my authentic self.  that's when I push back.   

for example if someone was questioning my job, and the people I work for?   well then they are waaaaaaaay over my boundaries.   this is my business.  I am in charge of making decisions and judgements about what I do and what's best for me.  we can certainly discuss it... in a respectful way... you do not get to bulldoze your opinion onto my stuff.   

This makes sense. Definitely where I need more practice.

Sadly I’ve joked that I take my time (need it often) to think through things. I’m not a good spur of the moment decision maker. Not that I can’t and still get it right (not always), I just prefer to take my time and think about things. He knows this. I sometimes wonder now if his rapid fire questioning/dysregulations are quasi-purposeful because it makes me feel off kilter. Probably just best method of attack for anyone and he can’t control it. Very different styles. He’s VERY reactionary.

I can never quite tell... is this a rhetorical question?   a reminder to yourself that things are not normal in your family life?    do you want thoughts on this?

Some rhetorical (getting better, tho), mostly looking for confirmation. Like, is a relationship filled with navigating these things?  People get upset, disagree. Do I just suck and being in a relationship?

How do healthy relationships deal with these things?

Geesh I feel like a fool trying to find okay with any of this.

No.     This is not so much worse because you tried to avoid his outbursts.   While you have a role in this dynamic you didn't create it.  Most simply put, he created this dynamic.   Much of what you describe is abusive behavior.  What you are asking here is akin to the 'if I hadn't made him mad he wouldn't have hit me' thinking from an abuse victim.   if I had responded better he wouldn't be verbally toxic.    abuse is abuse is abuse.   you didn't create it.   you didn't make it worse.   you didn't respond the way you would have liked because you didn't have the information you needed to make better choices.   now you do.

only if your husband gets hit with a magic wand and changes into some one he is not.   this was bound to happen.   I'm going to say this was unavoidable.    i'm going to be blunt.   accept your husband for who and what he is.   he has been exhibiting traits of a mental disorder for years now ... 5-7 years from what you write.   consider reframing this into more realistic concept.    this is magical thinking.   

most of us where emotionally immature when we got here.  I was.    one thing I can say is that being in a disordered relationship keeps you emotionally immature.   but when the relationship fails you grow up real quick.   painfully but quick.   we tend to pick people who are at the same level as us in emotional maturity.   it might be naiveté, it might be that we never really bothered to look hard at some of the things that were going on.

in the end though, it is our responsibility to do the hard work of understanding ourselves and how to make better choices for us.   its up to us to figure out how to handle our fear of being raged at - not hope someone else will change to make us feel better.

'ducks 

Thanks ‘ducks. Stepping back, going through these discussions helps with a clearer picture. Learning lessons.

He’s been more on passive aggressive behavior (mostly) lately. Find this makes it harder to justify my feelings to him. It comes with opening up an issue, rather than dealing with an outburst, which sucks, too.

Any suggestions on passive aggressive?  Do I ignore while is passive?  Do I call him out (he’ll deny)?  Something else?

And, because he’s not so bad right now, it makes me question if I’m blowing out of proportion...I know I’m not. But it feels like I’ll be attacking an unsuspecting victim. I stay the course. I have my best plan formed, it will take a few months, I am concerned about pandemic uncertainty continuing, but have a few safeguards. I have less favorable back up plans.

Please share your thoughts...but enjoy the 4th...I just only have time when I have time, haha.  Don’t want to encroach on your holiday...thank you for your service...to me, to all!  Bless you for your support!

[formflier]

Can you expand on a recent passive aggressive episode and from that, I hope to be able to give advice.


Generally...don't get drawn in.  PA sucks when there is a need to communicate (from your perspective)...but again..generally just move forward with your life.

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Can you expand on a recent passive aggressive episode and from that, I hope to be able to give advice.


Generally...don't get drawn in.  PA sucks when there is a need to communicate (from your perspective)...but again..generally just move forward with your life.

Best,

FF

Hi FF...

In a nutshell...

Kid two needed to move out of college housing. Kid two avoids dad because doesn’t enjoy the “games”. We needed plenty of space anyway, etc., etc., so we wanted to go just the two of us.

Reasons for not him and kid two beyond kid twos desire. H is afraid of going out. H would rush kid two and threaten to throw everything out (and probably would). H would do things how he wanted, not considering for most part kids twos wishes.

So when I put my foot down and said that it would just be kid two and me going, he immediately made plans with kid one to go do something he thought I would be upset by — unnecessary money spent and entail them being gone all day and maybe overnight. I’d borrow money to have time apart right now!  He brought it up subtly all week. I told him to have a good time.

Leaving out the dishes, not picking up his things.

Before pandemic (cause he doesn’t leave the house now), he was angry at me for unknown reasons so he would leave to go to work and leave the front door open. This is after 20 years of not doing so and only in the few months prior to pandemic. It wasn’t every day, just a few times. And not door left unlocked. Door left wide open. Maybe doesn’t seem like a big deal, but he’s very fearful of crime even though we don’t live in a high crime area. We have deadbolts on every door, an alarm system, etc., etc. 

There have been others, a lot of comments that I ignore and promptly put out of my mind. If you want more, lmk...

Most are inconsequential, but it’s just unnecessary and might be hurtful if I didn’t see it for what it is. Just don’t know how to make him stop...

Thanks!

[babyducks]

Just don’t know how to make him stop...

twisting yourself into a pretzel trying to shape yourself to match his ability to understand/comprehend, ends up with you terribly twisted in your own thinking, and overly identified with his thinking.

I'm going to remind you to turn your focus on yourself, not him.

[babyducks]

And bigger, why should I even have to navigate all of this in the first place?  This isn’t mutual discussion and mutual respect.

because he has disordered thinking.
because you have porous boundaries.
because he has maladaptive coping skills.
because you avoid conflict.
because his choices protect him.
because your choices protect him.

I suppose. Some things are betterment for the family. He does some (although I struggle at the moment to find anything recent) and I try to help where it’s my wheelhouse. I’m not sure if it’s reasonable to draw a total line in the sand on these types of things. Idk...lmk your thoughts.

let me be clear.   I am not talking about physical responsibilities of the trash or the cooking or the kids college apartment.   I am talking about emotionally over functioning.    I am talking about taking more responsibility for the emotional condition of the relationship and family.

Some rhetorical (getting better, tho), mostly looking for confirmation. Like, is a relationship filled with navigating these things?  People get upset, disagree. Do I just suck and being in a relationship?

How do healthy relationships deal with these things?

Relationships are filled with navigating things.   Healthy relationships resolve things because both parties are committed to making it work.    Unhealthy relationships do not resolve issues.   Healthy relationships share goals and understandings,  support both parties, work to meet both parties needs.    You have very little practice with relationships.   You assume what you experienced is normal.   It's not.   Normal relationships don't end up searching the internet to identify strange behavior.

Any suggestions on passive aggressive?  Do I ignore while is passive?  Do I call him out (he’ll deny)?  Something else?

I'm going to repeat myself.  twisting yourself into a pretzel trying to shape yourself to match his ability to understand/comprehend, ends up with you terribly twisted in your own thinking, and overly identified with his thinking.

I'm going to remind you to turn your focus on yourself, not him.

You are overly identified with his thinking to the expense of your own thinking.

You can't make him stop his behavior.   You can identify how you think about the door being left open... and what is the appropriate FOR YOU response to that.

'ducks

[Cat Familiar]

Awesome summation by babyducks 

Part of navigating a relationship with a pwBPD is not giving aggressive, disruptive, unpleasant, irritating, annoying, unkind, thoughtless behavior any attention.

Reinforce the behavior you like, and you’ll see more of it.

Reinforce the awful behavior by attending to it, and you’ll see more of it.

[stolencrumbs]

He’s been more on passive aggressive behavior (mostly) lately. Find this makes it harder to justify my feelings to him.

In addition to what others have pointed out, I just wanted to highlight this.

You don't have to justify your feelings to him. You probably shouldn't attempt to. Beyond that, you don't have to justify your feelings to yourself. You feel what you feel. Feelings just are. Recognize them, acknowledge them, feel them. But I wouldn't spend a lot of time trying to figure out if they're justified, and certainly wouldn't spend time trying to convince him you're justified in feeling the way you do. 

[I Am Redeemed]

And bigger, why should I even have to navigate all of this in the first place?  This isn’t mutual discussion and mutual respect.

There are (broadly) two different types of viewing conflict.

One type views conflict as a competition or a war of egos. Traits of a competitive approach to conflict include impaired communication, obstructiveness, a perceived lack of help,  constant disagreements, and the belief that one's power is enhanced when the other's power is reduced. People who have a competitive view of conflict believe that there is a "winner" and a "loser". They want to be the ''winner" which means the other person must lose.

It's a zero sum game. It manifests in a destructive pattern and can lead to a downward spiral of the relationship.

Another approach to conflict is that of cooperation. This type recognizes that there is an interdependence of the parties in the relationship and is characterized by effective communication, helpfulness, trust, coordination of efforts, and reciprocal respect.

I think you inherently know that the second type is what you want to be and what you want in a partner. I think on some level you know that this is what a healthy relationship would consist of and you wonder why in the world anyone would not want this.

Your H is of the first type. He will not, without developing some type of self-awareness and desire to put in large effort with professional help, ever become the second type.

You are naturally drawn to being in the second type but you are scarred by your experiences with the competitive nature of his approach to conflict. You have adapted your responses to deflect his aggressive approach while questioning whether you should approach the conflict in the way that feels natural to you, which comes from an ideal place of mutual trust and respect.

When you have a partner that is abusive and aggressive, you cannot approach the conflict in this way. You must recognize that he is viewing the conflict as win/lose, not win/win. The only way for you not to lose is for you to set boundaries. Why should you have to do this? Because he is not a cooperative person and he does not value trust and mutual respect. Acknowledge that. Accept that. You don't have to like it. Is it right? Is it fair? Does it align with your values? Probably not. That has nothing to do with how you need to respond.

Processing how you feel about having a partner who views conflict as win/lose and not win/win is different from responding to the tactics of someone who believes that you have to lose all power in order for him to have any at all.

[formflier]

For those types of passive aggressive things (if that is what they are)...giving them the smallest amount of notice and energy possible is the best bet.

What if..what if every time he did something like that you rewarded yourself in some way?

See how that would change things from him to you?

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

twisting yourself into a pretzel trying to shape yourself to match his ability to understand/comprehend, ends up with you terribly twisted in your own thinking, and overly identified with his thinking.

I'm going to remind you to turn your focus on yourself, not him.

Thanks ‘ducks. I haven’t been looking at his reaction in something like this as stemming from his inability to understand.

Strange to me that someone who has always had his best intentions at heart is perceived as a threat, and yet that is how he sees it. 

I still have a lot of work to do.