He tossed out insults at the slightest pushback Part 4

[UBPDHelp]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=345198.30

There are (broadly) two different types of viewing conflict.

One type views conflict as a competition or a war of egos. Traits of a competitive approach to conflict include impaired communication, obstructiveness, a perceived lack of help,  constant disagreements, and the belief that one's power is enhanced when the other's power is reduced. People who have a competitive view of conflict believe that there is a "winner" and a "loser". They want to be the ''winner" which means the other person must lose.

It's a zero sum game. It manifests in a destructive pattern and can lead to a downward spiral of the relationship.

Another approach to conflict is that of cooperation. This type recognizes that there is an interdependence of the parties in the relationship and is characterized by effective communication, helpfulness, trust, coordination of efforts, and reciprocal respect.

I think you inherently know that the second type is what you want to be and what you want in a partner. I think on some level you know that this is what a healthy relationship would consist of and you wonder why in the world anyone would not want this.

Your H is of the first type. He will not, without developing some type of self-awareness and desire to put in large effort with professional help, ever become the second type.

You are naturally drawn to being in the second type but you are scarred by your experiences with the competitive nature of his approach to conflict. You have adapted your responses to deflect his aggressive approach while questioning whether you should approach the conflict in the way that feels natural to you, which comes from an ideal place of mutual trust and respect.

When you have a partner that is abusive and aggressive, you cannot approach the conflict in this way. You must recognize that he is viewing the conflict as win/lose, not win/win. The only way for you not to lose is for you to set boundaries. Why should you have to do this? Because he is not a cooperative person and he does not value trust and mutual respect. Acknowledge that. Accept that. You don't have to like it. Is it right? Is it fair? Does it align with your values? Probably not. That has nothing to do with how you need to respond.

Wow. Yep, exactly. I can function win-win in virtually every other relationship I have. I can turn on my normal to the rest of the world.

His need to win, be the best, most important, interesting has been on full display without a break for four months. I hate it and yet needed it.  I don’t think I would have faced any of this if I hadn’t been forced to. Too beaten down. I’m really trying to rise up. I really am.

And I simply want to rise up to a warm bed and a safe place for me and my kiddos. I don’t need fancy cars, clothes, jewelry...not one thing but my kids and a roof over our heads.

Processing how you feel about having a partner who views conflict as win/lose and not win/win is different from responding to the tactics of someone who believes that you have to lose all power in order for him to have any at all.

Thank you IamRedeemed.  Can you share an example of this?  A couple of scenarios to help me grasp this?

Thank you for sharing your thoughts...

[UBPDHelp]

For those types of passive aggressive things (if that is what they are)...giving them the smallest amount of notice and energy possible is the best bet.

What if..what if every time he did something like that you rewarded yourself in some way?

See how that would change things from him to you?

Best,

FF

Hi FF,

Ha...my reward is usually a chocolate chip cookie and I’ve already established that’s not good for me!

But, thank you for confirmation on ignoring the passive aggressive behavior. I will find a more productive reward.

Btw, the p/a behavior rules the roost these days...and the dishes remain.

[UBPDHelp]

Self care and centering alert!   The "prescription" has been written...please fill it for you.

Hmmm...there are lots of comments about "over identifying" or "over thinking" what he is doing.  What does that actually mean to you when you read those things?

I conceptually understand. Two-fold however...is my desire to not deal with this behavior enough cause for me to walk away and break up my kids family?  And because my “normal” compass is broken, I’m often uncertain if I’m reacting “normally.”  

Regardless of how it comes across, I have made huge leaps away from intertwining my views with his, etc. it’s not pretty, but it is improved.

Please take a breath and read this in a gentle way...interpret it gently.

I'm a fan of your thinking and words when you say you don't want to continue...

I'm not a fan of your thinking and words when you say I don't want to continue because he

First of all, why hand him the power over your life and decisions?

But, if it weren’t for his behavior, I may feel differently.

If my friend calls and says they want to go for a ride, would I like to come? I say sure that sounds nice.

If they tell me, okay, but I’m going to drive 100 mph and my brakes don’t work, I may change my mind based upon what they do.

I like a leisurely drive, but I want out of a reckless speeding car.

What am I missing?

Second of all, what if the "because he" isn't accurate/true/knowable?

Think about it...

Has he been able to change?  I can't see any accurate answer other than yes?

Has he made all the changes you want?  Obviously no.

If the past predicts the future and if he has changed, then...why would he stop changing in the future?

See how complicated and squishy it gets when your reasons for your life are because he instead of because I.

 

Again...gentle...let this settle in.

Best,

FF

He has changed. I will give you that.

It’s akin to a grain of sand moved from Malibu to Miami, and then a wave comes in and washes it away.

His changes are minimal — they have not been proven to last when the going gets tough.  And, he’s replaced his outbursts (likely only temporarily) with some passive aggressive power struggles.

Those dirty dishes remain.

I appreciate your optimism and hope. I don’t believe my H has enough change in him to undo the damage. I don’t know that I have the luxury to find out.

Can you frame a reason to divorce that is only about me?

I want to be single.

But then where is the accountability for the reason? 

I don’t want to be in a marriage where my partner spews vile hateful things at me or doesn’t respect me or my wishes.

Are those not valid reasons?

If he had an affair, would I have to find a reason that was about me? 

I could say I couldn’t be married to a cheater, but still about him even if it’s my standard/expectation.

What am I missing?

[formflier]

Another big breath moment...this is NOT going to feel fair.

But, if it weren’t for his behavior, I may feel differently.

If my friend calls and says they want to go for a ride, would I like to come? I say sure that sounds nice.

If they tell me, okay, but I’m going to drive 100 mph and my brakes don’t work, I may change my mind based upon what they do.

I like a leisurely drive, but I want out of a reckless speeding car.

What am I missing?
 

And if your behavior had been different, his behavior would have been same or different?


Uggg..I know.

There is a duality here that doesn't feel good yet it should also "empower" you.

Can you tell me how each of those is true?

I'll get back to your other questions in a bit.

Best,

FF

[babyducks]

What am I missing?

lots of good things written in this thread.   I am going to back up to something stolencrumbs and I Am Redeemed touched on.

  you don't have to justify your feelings to yourself. You feel what you feel. Feelings just are. Recognize them, acknowledge them, feel them.

Processing how you feel about having a partner who views conflict as win/lose and not win/win is different from responding to the tactics of someone who believes that you have to lose all power in order for him to have any at all.

what appears to be missing from your descriptions is any identification of your feelings as your own.  your own emotions.    especially of your emotions as being separate from him or what he does.   almost everything you describe is a reaction to him.    conditional to him. or a tactic to handle him.

stolencrumbs said (roughly) don't use him to justify your feelings.  what happens if on Tuesday he comes home with a dozen red roses.   in his pocket is an appointment card for a therapist.   he apologizes profusely.  he is going to work on the marriage.   what happens to your feelings then?    are you thrilled?  do your feelings suddenly turn around and you decide this is it... you are going to feel comfortable and content?     are you going to forget the vile comments?   the verbal abuse?   the unfair/uneven power dynamic.   everything is good now?

it appears to me you are very disconnected from your feelings/emotions.    and very connected to his feelings/emotions.   it appears to me that you describe what you want/feel as conditional to what he does.   it appears to me that you have lost your individuality and don't recognize that it's missing.  you don't process your own individual thoughts... you work on tactics for becoming more enmeshed with him.   

Can you frame a reason to divorce that is only about me?

I have given everything I feel I could/can to this marriage over the years.  I feel burned out.  I believe I have nothing left to give.     I want to enjoy some solitude and peace and quiet.    I want less financial obligations.  I need a simpler life.   I need more stability and security.    I want to take time for myself and only myself.

Notice all the "I" statements?   

'ducks

[formflier]

Yes...!  The above post captures much of what I've been trying to communicate.  

it appears to me you are very disconnected from your feelings/emotions.

Can I suggest a contributing factor is an enormous amount of effort and analysis into his stuff and the "why" in his stuff.  

Such as "I did x and that made him feel Y, so he did Z just so I would A"

  

and very connected to his feelings/emotions.

I'm going to add a thought to the observations above.

You appear very connected to your opinion of his feelings/emotions/actions/reasonings.

 

Here is why the red flags.  

With quiet time and consistent training, you can be fully aware of your feelings and even "the reasons" that you are feeling them.

It's unlikely that any one of us will ever gain the power of mind reading/feeling reading...ever.  With any certainty.  

(Yes, we should pay attention to others potential feelings and validate, be kind..etc etc.  One of the reasons for "validating questions" is a healthy assumption that "we don't understand the other person's experience".)

Here is a recent example.  

I was applauding the decision to go alone with a child to help them move and handle logistics.  Bravo!

Then I saw the reasoning that since I did that my hubby did something else with the implication that he was sending you a message. (a negative one at that).

I was sitting there wondering...what would have been acceptable or even praiseworthy ?  Should he have volunteered to sit in the corner with his dunce cap on?

And all this time, instead of focusing on how to deepen and improve your relationship with the child you will be with, you are "personalizing" your hubby's actions.

Here is the thing...is it "possible" that he did what he did for EXACTLY the reasons you ascribe to him?  Yep..it's possible.  

Will you ever know for sure?  Nope..

Is it possible he wanted to spend time with that child and that's his reason? Yep

Is it possible he didn't want to be alone and picked the closest kid?  Yep

Is it possible (fill in blank...we could do this all day)?

Let your hubby develop a relationship with his kids, encourage it even.  Don't judge it.  (caveat...obvious abusive behaviors...you should pay attention.  Name calling, violence..etc etc)

Instead of forming opinions about your hubby's potential motivations, focus on the relationship with the child you are spending time with and let that be enough.

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Another big breath moment...this is NOT going to feel fair.


And if your behavior had been different, his behavior would have been same or different?


Uggg..I know.

There is a duality here that doesn't feel good yet it should also "empower" you.

Can you tell me how each of those is true?

I'll get back to your other questions in a bit.

Best,

FF

I believe ultimately it would be the same.

He’s being very cautious around me. He’s finding nit picky faults with our older two. That’s hard to watch and listen to.

He also now keeps pressing to do something fun.  And then something fun just the two of us. I really have no interest.

[formflier]

He’s being very cautious around me. 

Isn't this an important observation!

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

lots of good things written in this thread.   I am going to back up to something stolencrumbs and I Am Redeemed touched on.

what appears to be missing from your descriptions is any identification of your feelings as your own.  your own emotions.    especially of your emotions as being separate from him or what he does.   almost everything you describe is a reaction to him.    conditional to him. or a tactic to handle him.

stolencrumbs said (roughly) don't use him to justify your feelings.  what happens if on Tuesday he comes home with a dozen red roses.   in his pocket is an appointment card for a therapist.   he apologizes profusely.  he is going to work on the marriage.   what happens to your feelings then?    are you thrilled?  do your feelings suddenly turn around and you decide this is it... you are going to feel comfortable and content?     are you going to forget the vile comments?   the verbal abuse?   the unfair/uneven power dynamic.   everything is good now?

That’s just it. I’ve spent a lot of time and energy getting over his past behavior. I don’t feel like I can any longer. There’s no up side in this for me.

So, in truth I have plenty of feelings and emotions outside of him. BUT, it’s my feelings about him and his behavior that is impacting the status of the relationship.

I wake up happy.  I talk to other people.  I do my job. I help people.  I enjoy the things I enjoy. And then I writhe when he approaches, I get tired of listening to why the neighbors are terrible or why some stranger is being reckless.  I get tired of the commentary on what’s for lunch.  He hasn’t raged at me truly in a while, but I don’t forget this now. I don’t forget how he failed us at this critical time. I don’t forget that he refuses to pick up that damn dish or take out the garbage. Nothing new, except that I’ve had enough. I know better. Yes, it took me a damn long time to get here. But I have arrived.

Yes, I can ignore and go about my business. I have my own likes/dislikes and my own dreams...I focus on how he makes me feel here because that’s where the problem is. I don’t need help with the things that make me happy and bring me joy.

it appears to me you are very disconnected from your feelings/emotions.    and very connected to his feelings/emotions.   it appears to me that you describe what you want/feel as conditional to what he does.   it appears to me that you have lost your individuality and don't recognize that it's missing.  you don't process your own individual thoughts... you work on tactics for becoming more enmeshed with him. 

Well I believe that has been true. He has BIG feelings. They overshadowed everything. And wasn’t that much the point?  

I have made great strides to exert my emotional rights. It’s not perfect, not even close, but I am working on it. The line for family best interest vs personal best interest is tough. His best interest no longer interests me.

He is trying to entice me all different ways. I believe he senses my disinterest. He’s still trying subtle ways to engage me on riff raff, I don’t. I just can’t get too excited about it anymore.

I feel sorry for him. I am amazed how long I tried to save this. Save what?   

I have given everything I feel I could/can to this marriage over the years.  I feel burned out.  I believe I have nothing left to give.     I want to enjoy some solitude and peace and quiet.    I want less financial obligations.  I need a simpler life.   I need more stability and security.    I want to take time for myself and only myself.

Notice all the "I" statements?   

'ducks

Yes, thank you.

[UBPDHelp]

Isn't this an important observation!

Best,

FF

It’s an observation. Maybe important. But FF, I can’t muster caring anymore.

I don’t believe him. I don’t trust him.

He’s truly hurt me so badly and I find it sickening the things he’s said to me, and only when I am willing to stand up and not play his games is he interested in trying to hold on.

Don’t you think he’s just afraid of losing his punching bag and that the world will find out he’s just a shell of who he portrays himself to be?

It’s not real. I don’t believe it.

Btw, the dirty dish remains. And the truth of it is, he’s the only one who uses our bathroom. The garbage is overflowing and he refuses to take it out. How do I reconcile these power plays with the person who all of a sudden wants to keep his family together.

How can he look into the faces of our children and say he loves them when he’s been beyond vile and disgusting to their mother?

How does that make any sense.

I don’t pretend to be perfect or without fault. I’m not. But I don’t deserve what I’ve been given.

[UBPDHelp]

Yes...!  The above post captures much of what I've been trying to communicate.  



Can I suggest a contributing factor is an enormous amount of effort and analysis into his stuff and the "why" in his stuff.  

Such as "I did x and that made him feel Y, so he did Z just so I would A"

  
I'm going to add a thought to the observations above.

You appear very connected to your opinion of his feelings/emotions/actions/reasonings.

 

Here is why the red flags.  

With quiet time and consistent training, you can be fully aware of your feelings and even "the reasons" that you are feeling them.

It's unlikely that any one of us will ever gain the power of mind reading/feeling reading...ever.  With any certainty.  

Sometimes he tells me. Sometimes his behavior is immediate and directly correlated. No, I don’t know why truly, but I can make a damn educated guess.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions...I believe it’s also paved with NPD/BPD worst intentions. Either way, it’s still hell.

I might feel okay if he saw my time with kid two as a nice example and decided to mimic. If he tells me he’s going with kid one and they’re going to buy a new car and spend the night and go for an expensive dinner...I believe his intention is to irritate me.

I learned. Have a good time. His choice. He can deal with consequences.

(Yes, we should pay attention to others potential feelings and validate, be kind..etc etc.  One of the reasons for "validating questions" is a healthy assumption that "we don't understand the other person's experience".)

Here is a recent example.  

I was applauding the decision to go alone with a child to help them move and handle logistics.  Bravo!

Thank you. This is nothing new. I’ve done this every to and fro with kid two — remember kid two goes to less impressive school husband hates...not a feeling...a fully expressed statement every time kid two comes up. Yes, kid two and I are closer and always have been.

I have done plenty of things for and by myself.  Again, I’m not sharing these because that is not where my problem lies.

Then I saw the reasoning that since I did that my hubby did something else with the implication that he was sending you a message. (a negative one at that).

I was sitting there wondering...what would have been acceptable or even praiseworthy ?  Should he have volunteered to sit in the corner with his dunce cap on?

I suppose I could suggest that you might be attributing my feelings.

No, he does not need to sit in the corner. If I say I’m taking kid two to move out (schools out/lease ending) and he immediately says he’s going to take kid one somewhere else, it seems he’s trying to complicate my plan. Who is going to stay with the two youngest who are not old enough to stay home alone?  They can’t go with him.  Then what?

I may not understand what makes him tick or why he does the things he does, but I do know he tries to disrupt.

And for the record, he has gone to no less than 15-20 concerts with kid one, out to dinner, etc.  Drove 10 hours 4-5 times/yr all through college to go to games and dinners (I went to half). I have never guilted him or asked to deprive him of anything.

Kid two was two hours away.  How many times did he visit? Zero. How many times did he pick up/drop off?  Two. Out of ~32.

There’s a legal saying — res ipsa loquitur — the thing speaks for itself.

And all this time, instead of focusing on how to deepen and improve your relationship with the child you will be with, you are "personalizing" your hubby's actions.

I’m not sure how you made that leap. My child and I had an amazing time and always have so much fun together. So much fun. Kid two is a wonderful, smart, kind, compassionate, lovely human. We had an amazing time.

Here is the thing...is it "possible" that he did what he did for EXACTLY the reasons you ascribe to him?  Yep..it's possible.  

Will you ever know for sure?  Nope..

Is it possible he wanted to spend time with that child and that's his reason? Yep

Is it possible he didn't want to be alone and picked the closest kid?  Yep

Is it possible (fill in blank...we could do this all day)?

Let your hubby develop a relationship with his kids, encourage it even.  Don't judge it.  (caveat...obvious abusive behaviors...you should pay attention.  Name calling, violence..etc etc)

Instead of forming opinions about your hubby's potential motivations, focus on the relationship with the child you are spending time with and let that be enough.

Best,

FF

Again, my kids are always enough.

Yes, he is close to kid one. They have some issues, but they are closest.

I encourage every one of my kids to (try to) have a good relationship with him. I have defended him to them many times.  I would never want them to not have a relationship.

[formflier]

 

I’m not sure how you made that leap. 

You made plans and then he made plans.

You attribute your plans to satisfying the need to a child.

You attribute his plans to trying to "complicate" your plans or "send you a message" (broad description).

So, the leap I see are that his plans are about you or trying to disrupt you. 

That's how I made that leap.

Switching gears:

I applaud you for letting him deal (or not deal) with his own stuff (trash, dishes, etc).

I would encourage you to ask directly and succinctly for what you need/want. 

When he proposes his love for you and wants a getaway with you.

"Babe...I appreciate that and we need to give that some serious thought.  At the moment, it would mean a lot to me if you could handle (describe dish nicely) and bathroom trash and cleanliness.   Can you do that for me?"

When you are tired of listening about neighbors (insert other issues)

"Babe...I'm not the best listener at the moment.  Let's connect tonight after dinner when I can focus on what's on your mind."

Then don't listen.

Last thought for now.   Your "message" appears to be getting through to him loud and clear.  He appears to be reaching for different "tools".  This is a good thing!

Best,

FF

[formflier]

It's important to "hold loosely" to ideas about motivations/reasons others do things.

Please don't hear me "arguing" with you or saying your ideas are "wrong"...

Please do hear me suggesting there are other possibilities to consider or even consider focusing on behavior and not trying to figure out "why" that behavior has shown up.

He’s truly hurt me so badly and I find it sickening the things he’s said to me, and only when I am willing to stand up and not play his games is he interested in trying to hold on.

Don’t you think he’s just afraid of losing his punching bag and that the world will find out he’s just a shell of who he portrays himself to be?
 

I think it's more likely that he is changing because he "has to".  You have changed the rules of the relationship (BRAVO!) You are "training" him to be different.

He is likely worried about "abandonment", that comes through loud and clear. 

I doubt he has thoughtfully considered you as his punching bag and that he is about to loose you.  It's possible, but IMO not probable.

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

You made plans and then he made plans.

You attribute your plans to satisfying the need to a child.

You attribute his plans to trying to "complicate" your plans or "send you a message" (broad description).

So, the leap I see are that his plans are about you or trying to disrupt you.  

That's how I made that leap.

Hmm.  I disagree.

But for starters, the leap I’m referring to is:

Excerpt
And all this time, instead of focusing on how to deepen and improve your relationship with the child you will be with, you are "personalizing" your hubby's actions.

I’m not sure how you made that leap. My child and I had an amazing time and always have so much fun together. So much fun. Kid two is a wonderful, smart, kind, compassionate, lovely human. We had an amazing time.

My relationship with my children is great. I have coached countless teams they have been on, stepped away when they got to the age they preferred mom to not be so involved, loved them, supported them, let them think and feel what THEY feel.  Set rules, boundaries and expectations for and with them. I have taught them compassion and philanthropy (years of service to our community).  They have had my UNconditional love and always will.

Despite all of this I have failed them. I do not forget this or take it lightly.

But back to suggesting that I simply see my actions as benevolent and his as disruptive, let me say this. I have a child who graduated college virtually, who left ALL of their things in their apartment except for what was needed for two weeks, that turned into nearly 4 months. Paying rent for clothes and Knick knack storage. The lease is up, kid two would like to retrieve their things. Despite having a 3-row extended SUV, there simply was not more room in the car. Kid two recoils with raised voices. I’m better at efficiency and getting sh!t done and will respect kid twos wishes. For the past 4 months dad has told kid two that we can either throw it all out or just abandon it.

Is that self righteous benevolence?  Idk, maybe I am so far off my rocker I don’t see it.

H wants to take kid one on a 3-hr (one way) pleasure drive to look at a store that may or may not be open between pandemic and holiday (their assessment, not mine). Sitting incapable of functioning for nearly four months and then all of a sudden decides to go the exact time we’re going?  I mean, c’mon, you tell me?

And why are you able to tell when your wife has sabotaged a job or a business venture, but I can’t tell when my H is doing the same to me?

The funny, almost hysterical, thing is...I always believe people have the best of intentions. Sure, I get burned here and there. H believes everyone has the worst intentions. I have years of dealing with this behavior.  No, I didn’t understand. No, I didn’t recognize something else was at play. Now I do and it only confirms my fears.

I would wholly prefer to believe he simply wanted to do these things. Sometimes he does, sometimes it’s a means to an end. We all do it.

I don’t think he’s all bad, but I’m not stupid either and I can assure you in this, I am not wrong.

And ultimately I’m sharing a frustration.  And I know I need to just continue with my plans, which I did, but it’s still hard constantly thwarting these undermining actions.

Switching gears:

I applaud you for letting him deal (or not deal) with his own stuff (trash, dishes, etc).

I would encourage you to ask directly and succinctly for what you need/want.

I have. He does once and then reverts. He is a narcissist who believes it is my job to take care of his messes. Walking the tightrope of not mothering. Boo.  

When he proposes his love for you and wants a getaway with you.

"Babe...I appreciate that and we need to give that some serious thought.  At the moment, it would mean a lot to me if you could handle (describe dish nicely) and bathroom trash and cleanliness.   Can you do that for me?"

When you are tired of listening about neighbors (insert other issues)

"Babe...I'm not the best listener at the moment.  Let's connect tonight after dinner when I can focus on what's on your mind."

Then don't listen.

Last thought for now.   Your "message" appears to be getting through to him loud and clear.  He appears to be reaching for different "tools".  This is a good thing!

Best,

FF

Perhaps if I’d gotten here sooner. Now my stomach turns. I blame myself for not understanding, not reaching out for help sooner.

That said, it is my understanding that the likelihood for real change is slim. If he was “just a little NPD/BPD”, then maybe. I think despite all of the tools and improvement it is simply too much work for something that is unlikely to vastly improve or maintain.

Do I love the prospect of going it alone? No.  I am I scared? He! yes!  

Doesn’t mean there’s a better choice.

I appreciate you positivity and optimism.  I’m not certain it is placed appropriately here.

[UBPDHelp]

It's important to "hold loosely" to ideas about motivations/reasons others do things.

Please don't hear me "arguing" with you or saying your ideas are "wrong"...

Please do hear me suggesting there are other possibilities to consider or even consider focusing on behavior and not trying to figure out "why" that behavior has shown up.

That’s the thing. I have held very loosely to motivations. For a long time. I’ve been shocked, dismayed and hurt.

I’ve been amazed, happy and felt blessed with others. I don’t need to talk about those.

I’ve been so-so with other actions.  Some have been my fault.  That’s okay. That’s life.

If his motivation is to better the situation, but the application makes things terrible, I’m more accepting of the intention and might even work to find ways to improve the application.

If his motivation is to scare/intimidate/control/manipulate, regardless of application, I without question can not tolerate that behavior.

Desperately trying to understand WHY he does the things he does has been important to ME. I’ve been redirected many times. I understand it’s similar to going down a rabbit hole, BUT before I just assume the worst, I needed (for me) to be sure my assessment was mostly correct.

That compass is broken. I needed help with my understanding of the dynamic. I am not a black and white thinker. There are lovely shades of gray all around. But that doesn’t mean there aren’t extremes either.

I think it's more likely that he is changing because he "has to".  You have changed the rules of the relationship (BRAVO!) You are "training" him to be different.

He is likely worried about "abandonment", that comes through loud and clear.  

I doubt he has thoughtfully considered you as his punching bag and that he is about to loose you.  It's possible, but IMO not probable.

Best,

FF

I’ll consider this. I wonder what happens if I turn my back or let my guard down...what do you suppose?

I’m asking. That is not rhetorical.  Do you think he is capable of truly changing?

Open to all opinions...

[formflier]

And why are you able to tell when your wife has sabotaged a job or a business venture, but I can’t tell when my H is doing the same to me?
 

She gained access to my email and emailed the person helping me get the job ( a husband of a female colleague) and said I had an inappropriate relationship with his wife (it was a little more colorful than that).

They decided (likely wisely) to end their relationship with us to include withdrawing sponsorship for the position.

With regards to business ventures my wife put in writing that she was or it and would provide signature, then abrogated our written agreement.

I'm not sure "why" she did those things or what her intentions are, they really don't matter (IMO)

Switching gears

Hey...I'm not advocating you remain or leave your marriage.

I am advocating that you "look" at your relationships with an accurate and healthy point of view.

He could become the "perfect" husband and you can still decide to leave.  That's OK

He can get worse and you can decide to stay.  That's ok.

 


I'm going to stick with my point about not personalizing his actions.  From everything I know about this disorder her personalized it to himself, likely without much of any considering towards you (that it would have negative or positive outcome).

It's a possibility that he had other motivations, but I think highly unlikely.  

It's about him...not you.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

I’ll consider this. I wonder what happens if I turn my back or let my guard down...what do you suppose?
 

Can I rephrase this?

If you lower your boundaries...he will trample them.  Almost 100% certainty.

Best,

FF

[stolencrumbs]

So, in truth I have plenty of feelings and emotions outside of him. BUT, it’s my feelings about him and his behavior that is impacting the status of the relationship.

I don't want to speak for 'ducks here, but what I see is that you are pretty disconnected from your feelings about him. It's not that you don't have a life outside of him, or feel things that have nothing to do with him, it's that your feelings about him have the flavor of being up to him or determined by him in various ways instead of being up to you and fully yours.

I'm not sure if that makes sense. A lot of what you say kind of has this feel of you feeling like you're forced into something. Forced to feel the way you do because of his behaviors. Forced to seek a divorce because of his behaviors. Forced to have to be hypervigilant because of his behaviors.

And trust me, I get that. I felt forced into a lot of things and to feeling a lot of ways by my wife's behaviors. (A very brief recap just to underline that I'm not talking about a little bit of BPD here--my wife, over the course of four years, kicked me out of the house, destroyed all my clothes, broke a ceramic top stove with a step stool, smashed a glass storm door with a hammer, destroyed the countertops with a hammer, beat the refrigerator with a hammer, smashed every dish in the house, threw a dish through a window, drove me around drunk and recklessly threatening to crash the car, threatened to kill our dogs, drove around drunk with our dogs threatening to crash the car, threatened to burn down the house, lit multiple things on fire inside the house, pushed me, choked me, and threw dishes at me, and she self-harms, threatens suicide, and has made multiple attempts. And those are just the "highlights".)  

It was very, very easy to say to myself (and others) that I felt x because my wife did y, or I have to x because my wife y. But part of what that was doing was keeping me from being really honest with myself about my own feelings and about how I had changed over the course of those years. And when I decided I wanted a divorce, it made it trickier for reasons you suggest. Because I had framed things as being a result of her behaviors, I felt stuck if those behaviors changed. And lots of them did change. Nothing has been destroyed in months. The rage has largely subsided. The self-harm and suicidal thoughts and actions continue. But if the things I was pointing to as the reasons for me feeling the way I do change, then what? What do I point to? Well, I pointed to a lot of the things you are pointing to--that I don't really believe the change, that I can see underlying manipulative motivations, that the things she had already done were too much to get past, etc. And maybe all of that is true, I don't really know. But what was more true was that it didn't really matter what my wife did at that point because of my feelings and thoughts and beliefs. It helped me to let go of blaming her for how I felt/thought/believed and just recognize and acknowledge that my feelings/thoughts/beliefs about my wife and our relationship had changed. Period. It didn't really matter why. I simply felt differently about her and about our relationship. They're my feelings, they're cause is myriad, and it doesn't help to blame my wife for how I feel. After all, she did all of those things and I didn't feel that way for a long time. It's not a necessary law of the universe that a person who does x makes us feel y. I didn't want a divorce for a long time. No argument or justification forces that conclusion on us.  

The question for me is what do I do with that. Given how I feel, given what I think, given what I believe, what do I do? That's when babyducks' list is important. Those reasons would all be about me and aren't conditional on my wife or her behavior. And to ff's point, they are reasons that might persist even if your H did a complete 180. They might persist because they're you're feelings, and beliefs, and thoughts, and decisions.

Not sure if any of that makes sense, but hopefully there's some relevant point in there somewhere.

[Edit/Addendum: I think one way to see ff's "optimism" is just as optimism that you can get to a point where you can make a decision about what to do without feeling exhausted and angry and resentful. The focus on your H and your feelings being conditional on what he does might be keeping you exhausted, angry, and resentful. The advice to focus on yourself and self-care is not about you changing how you feel about him or even what you want to do right now. It's about being in a place where you can be better in touch with your own thoughts/feelings/beliefs, take ownership of those, and answer the question "what do I do with that" from slightly more stable ground. As it is, part of what I see happening is that there might be some part of you that is disappointed in any change your H might make because it makes it harder to justify you wanting to leave. Again, I completely get that. But if you let go of using your H's behavior as a justification and instead just focus on you and what you believe the right decision is based on your thoughts/feelings/etc., it might make for a better atmosphere for decisioin-making. (Still not sure if any of that makes sense.)]
 

[UBPDHelp]

She gained access to my email and emailed the person helping me get the job ( a husband of a female colleague) and said I had an inappropriate relationship with his wife (it was a little more colorful than that).

They decided (likely wisely) to end their relationship with us to include withdrawing sponsorship for the position.

With regards to business ventures my wife put in writing that she was or it and would provide signature, then abrogated our written agreement.

I'm not sure "why" she did those things or what her intentions are, they really don't matter (IMO)

Switching gears

Hey...I'm not advocating you remain or leave your marriage.

I am advocating that you "look" at your relationships with an accurate and healthy point of view.

He could become the "perfect" husband and you can still decide to leave.  That's OK

He can get worse and you can decide to stay.  That's ok.

 


I'm going to stick with my point about not personalizing his actions.  From everything I know about this disorder her personalized it to himself, likely without much of any considering towards you (that it would have negative or positive outcome).

It's a possibility that he had other motivations, but I think highly unlikely.  

It's about him...not you.

Best,

FF

Okay, so his reaction to me is because he feels somehow threatened, for instance, about me helping kid two.

To fill the vast emptiness my action creates in him, he fills it, not to punish me, but simply to fill this enormous crater. Okay...is that what you are saying?

So it’s not really about me...it’s about his void.

And then I go a step further and I say to myself that it’s just him dealing with his stuff. BUT his void filling means I am trampled on.

So ultimately my choice is to recognize that his intention is not to hurt me, it’s to help himself. I’m just an innocent bystander in his narcissistic existence.

There are so many reactionary responses to me, that even if I accept he’s simply protecting himself, it comes with a price to me.

I’ll ponder some more.

[UBPDHelp]

I don't want to speak for 'ducks here, but what I see is that you are pretty disconnected from your feelings about him. It's not that you don't have a life outside of him, or feel things that have nothing to do with him, it's that your feelings about him have the flavor of being up to him or determined by him in various ways instead of being up to you and fully yours.

I'm not sure if that makes sense. A lot of what you say kind of has this feel of you feeling like you're forced into something. Forced to feel the way you do because of his behaviors. Forced to seek a divorce because of his behaviors. Forced to have to be hypervigilant because of his behaviors.

And trust me, I get that. I felt forced into a lot of things and to feeling a lot of ways by my wife's behaviors. (A very brief recap just to underline that I'm not talking about a little bit of BPD here--my wife, over the course of four years, kicked me out of the house, destroyed all my clothes, broke a ceramic top stove with a step stool, smashed a glass storm door with a hammer, destroyed the countertops with a hammer, beat the refrigerator with a hammer, smashed every dish in the house, threw a dish through a window, drove me around drunk and recklessly threatening to crash the car, threatened to kill our dogs, drove around drunk with our dogs threatening to crash the car, threatened to burn down the house, lit multiple things on fire inside the house, pushed me, choked me, and threw dishes at me, and she self-harms, threatens suicide, and has made multiple attempts. And those are just the "highlights".)  

It was very, very easy to say to myself (and others) that I felt x because my wife did y, or I have to x because my wife y. But part of what that was doing was keeping me from being really honest with myself about my own feelings and about how I had changed over the course of those years. And when I decided I wanted a divorce, it made it trickier for reasons you suggest. Because I had framed things as being a result of her behaviors, I felt stuck if those behaviors changed. And lots of them did change. Nothing has been destroyed in months. The rage has largely subsided. The self-harm and suicidal thoughts and actions continue. But if the things I was pointing to as the reasons for me feeling the way I do change, then what? What do I point to? Well, I pointed to a lot of the things you are pointing to--that I don't really believe the change, that I can see underlying manipulative motivations, that the things she had already done were too much to get past, etc. And maybe all of that is true, I don't really know. But what was more true was that it didn't really matter what my wife did at that point because of my feelings and thoughts and beliefs. It helped me to let go of blaming her for how I felt/thought/believed and just recognize and acknowledge that my feelings/thoughts/beliefs about my wife and our relationship had changed. Period. It didn't really matter why. I simply felt differently about her and about our relationship. They're my feelings, they're cause is myriad, and it doesn't help to blame my wife for how I feel. After all, she did all of those things and I didn't feel that way for a long time. It's not a necessary law of the universe that a person who does x makes us feel y. I didn't want a divorce for a long time. No argument or justification forces that conclusion on us.  

The question for me is what do I do with that. Given how I feel, given what I think, given what I believe, what do I do? That's when babyducks' list is important. Those reasons would all be about me and aren't conditional on my wife or her behavior. And to ff's point, they are reasons that might persist even if your H did a complete 180. They might persist because they're you're feelings, and beliefs, and thoughts, and decisions.

Not sure if any of that makes sense, but hopefully there's some relevant point in there somewhere.

[Edit/Addendum: I think one way to see ff's "optimism" is just as optimism that you can get to a point where you can make a decision about what to do without feeling exhausted and angry and resentful. The focus on your H and your feelings being conditional on what he does might be keeping you exhausted, angry, and resentful. The advice to focus on yourself and self-care is not about you changing how you feel about him or even what you want to do right now. It's about being in a place where you can be better in touch with your own thoughts/feelings/beliefs, take ownership of those, and answer the question "what do I do with that" from slightly more stable ground. As it is, part of what I see happening is that there might be some part of you that is disappointed in any change your H might make because it makes it harder to justify you wanting to leave. Again, I completely get that. But if you let go of using your H's behavior as a justification and instead just focus on you and what you believe the right decision is based on your thoughts/feelings/etc., it might make for a better atmosphere for decisioin-making. (Still not sure if any of that makes sense.)]
 

Hi stolencrumbs...I get what you are saying. I’m sorry you’ve had so much turmoil.  

I’m not always a great point maker, but I think ultimately what I’m saying is...

(To me), it’s a distinction without a difference.

He treats me terribly vs I don’t want to be in a relationship where I am treated poorly

He manipulates me through rage and name calling vs I don’t want to be in a relationship where I am screamed at and called names.

He throws things and breaks things vs I am not comfortable in a relationship where things are thrown and broken.

I guess I feel that my feelings were implied by the amount of disdain I feel for his behavior.

That said, I seem to be missing at how one should arrive at the desire (or not) to divorce/separate/stay together without considering, at least to some extent, the treatment of their partner.

My feelings re: the marriage very much have to do with how I’ve been treated. I don’t think arriving at the desire to separate appeared out of nowhere for no reason.

I truly am not trying to be difficult. I don’t understand how ones feelings change without some internal/external factor. And, honestly, with overwhelming evidence of terrible behavior, I simply can’t discount it and decide I just feel this way.

I mean, when I was courted and treated well, his actions very much impacted how I felt about him. How would the opposite be different?

Sorry, all, I need major help with connecting these dots.

[stolencrumbs]

Hi stolencrumbs...I get what you are saying. I’m sorry you’ve had so much turmoil.  

I’m not always a great point maker, but I think ultimately what I’m saying is...

(To me), it’s a distinction without a difference.

He treats me terribly vs I don’t want to be in a relationship where I am treated poorly

He manipulates me through rage and name calling vs I don’t want to be in a relationship where I am screamed at and called names.

He throws things and breaks things vs I am not comfortable in a relationship where things are thrown and broken.

I guess I feel that my feelings were implied by the amount of disdain I feel for his behavior.

That said, I seem to be missing at how one should arrive at the desire (or not) to divorce/separate/stay together without considering, at least to some extent, the treatment of their partner.

My feelings re: the marriage very much have to do with how I’ve been treated. I don’t think arriving at the desire to separate appeared out of nowhere for no reason.

I truly am not trying to be difficult. I don’t understand how ones feelings change without some internal/external factor. And, honestly, with overwhelming evidence of terrible behavior, I simply can’t discount it and decide I just feel this way.

I mean, when I was courted and treated well, his actions very much impacted how I felt about him. How would the opposite be different?

Sorry, all, I need major help with connecting these dots.

I think the examples you give are largely distinctions without a difference. I would compare that to the list of statements 'ducks gave above. Those statement are not just the flip side of some statement about your H's behaviors.

I would go back to the hypothetical that both 'ducks and ff have alluded to. What if your H made a complete 180? Got serious about therapy and changing his behaviors? I would encourage you to think about this not because it's likely, but because it might help clarify what you feel.

For me, if my wife had made the changes she's made now three years ago, I would have jumped at the opportunity to try living a life with her again. Because I loved her as my wife. Because I believed I would be happy with her if the behaviors stopped. Because I wanted to be her partner. Because I felt like I still had gas in the tank to make things work. I don't feel those things now. If she magically became only the good parts of her, I still don't think i would feel those things. Of course her behavior contributed to that, and of course how she treated me matters for all of it. I'm not suggesting you discount or ignore all of that. I guess the suggestion is that it can be helpful to think more about how you feel and what you think and what you believe separately from what your H has done to cause you to feel that way.

[Cat Familiar]

Desperately trying to understand WHY he does the things he does has been important to ME.

Simple answer—he’s mentally ill and has been getting worse.

Do you think he is capable of truly changing?

No.

Personality disorders don’t simply go away. Without committing to intensive therapy, he’s likely to continue on the path he’s been on, and perhaps continuing to worsen. It may be that not only does he have a personality disorder, or more than one, he might have other comorbid pathologies.

There is nothing for you to “understand”; he simply is who he is. All your attempts to understand are keeping you stuck, angry, put upon, frustrated, exhausted.

The question is whether or not you want to continue having him as your husband. It’s totally up to you, not anyone else.

[GaGrl]

Following up on Cat's point about trying to understand the why...

When you reach Radical Acceptance that the pwPD is mentally ill, and (s)he/he is who he is, there are some very difficult emotions to work through, and they are different from the emotions leading up to Radical Acceptance.

One of these emotions is deep hurt. It hurts that the person you loved, whom you thought loved you enough to commit to marriage, with whom you had children -- in the end cannot make you and your marriage a priority over his/her mental illness. He just can't. And it hurts to feel like a riunner-up to the grip of a mental illness.

Another emotion is grief, growing out of the above. It is the letting go of all the hopes, dreams, and aspirations that could have come from the relationship. As you know, grieving has its own path to work through (I found it a necessary process in order to accept my mother's limitations and maintain my boundaries -- I will never have a mother/daughter relationship as I imagined could be.)

Are you closer to Radical Acceptance than you were last week?

[formflier]

UBPDHelp

Keep up the good work...the hard work.  Coming to terms with all of this is difficult. 

My time is limited, so I'll try to answer questions...likely tomorrow.

You are getting great advice here.  If you have extra time...get something to drink and read stolencrumbs info several times.   Let it sink in...

You've got this...and we've got your back! 

Best,

FF

[I Am Redeemed]

Hi Ubpdhelp,

I'm on limited time, too, so I apologize for not using quotes. You asked for examples of the difference in processing your feelings and responding to the tactics of a partner who employs power struggle tactics in an abusive way.

Basically, what I mean by this is that when you have an abusive partner who does things to obstruct you or keep you in a one down position, the response to these behaviors is setting and holding a boundary. It may even be helpful for you to anticipate what the enforcement of a boundary would look like on different levels. For instance, if you believe (based on your past experience of similar situations) that if he demands the names of people you work with/for because he wants to research those people, find fault with them, then demand that you quit or whatever, the boundary could be that you protect your privacy surrounding your job and decline to disclose the information. If he rages at you or sends you nasty texts because of this, the boundary could be that you protect yourself from verbal abuse by leaving/shutting off the phone. If he escalates into physically threatening behavior by breaking things, etc., the boundary could be that you will protect your physical safety by calling the police.

It can be scary to think of the different levels of boundaries that may be necessary to deal with someone who is used to using intimidation to get his way, but it can help to plan out ahead of time what action will be necessary to hold the boundary.

Now. How do you feel about having to set all these boundaries? That is something to think about during a time when you are not having to actively set or hold a boundary. When you are about to go to bed, when you are having coffee in the morning, whatever. Write down your feelings, or type them out in a secure document. It's perfectly natural to feel frustrated or angry for having to put in so much effort just to protect yourself in a marriage. It's okay to feel cheated or a sense of injustice (or however it is you feel) that you don't feel safe emotionally in  your marriage.

Many of us have had to grieve the loss of what we hoped our relationship could be. That includes people who stayed in the relationship and people who left. After I left, I found I was grieving for what I thought I could have with him more than the actual relationship I had. What I had was abuse. What I wanted was a loving, supportive partner. I had to grieve for the loss of the r/s I strove to have, but didn't.

Stay or go, you will face the limitations of this r/s and you will need to sit with your feelings surrounding that and process them in order to move forward. Just don't let those feelings bleed over into your need to set boundaries. Is it frustrating that you need to set so many? Does it feel unfair? Does it make you downright mad? It's okay if all of those are true, but try to separate those from the actions you need to take.

[UBPDHelp]

I think the examples you give are largely distinctions without a difference. I would compare that to the list of statements 'ducks gave above. Those statement are not just the flip side of some statement about your H's behaviors.

I would go back to the hypothetical that both 'ducks and ff have alluded to. What if your H made a complete 180? Got serious about therapy and changing his behaviors? I would encourage you to think about this not because it's likely, but because it might help clarify what you feel.

I believe it’s too little, too late. The part that feels a little off is that I’ve been the one predominantly fighting for “us”...until now. For years I tried to fix. Now, recognizing it will never truly change and knowing it’s not how I want to live, is how I feel. 

I’m still scared. What if I lose my job? How does covid impact his support requirements? Will I be able to make my kids okay? How do I buy a house with a new job?  Where do I get support?  How do I protect my kids? Myself? And many more.

For me, if my wife had made the changes she's made now three years ago, I would have jumped at the opportunity to try living a life with her again. Because I loved her as my wife. Because I believed I would be happy with her if the behaviors stopped. Because I wanted to be her partner. Because I felt like I still had gas in the tank to make things work. I don't feel those things now. If she magically became only the good parts of her, I still don't think i would feel those things. Of course her behavior contributed to that, and of course how she treated me matters for all of it. I'm not suggesting you discount or ignore all of that. I guess the suggestion is that it can be helpful to think more about how you feel and what you think and what you believe separately from what your H has done to cause you to feel that way.

I hear you on this. That’s how I feel...

What keeps you from moving ahead with divorce stolencrumbs?

[UBPDHelp]

Simple answer—he’s mentally ill and has been getting worse.

No.

Personality disorders don’t simply go away. Without committing to intensive therapy, he’s likely to continue on the path he’s been on, and perhaps continuing to worsen. It may be that not only does he have a personality disorder, or more than one, he might have other comorbid pathologies.

There is nothing for you to “understand”; he simply is who he is. All your attempts to understand are keeping you stuck, angry, put upon, frustrated, exhausted.

The question is whether or not you want to continue having him as your husband. It’s totally up to you, not anyone else.

I don’t and yet I feel afraid. Still trapped at home — well he doesn’t really go out.

Afraid of his reaction, of going it alone and so much uncertainty. And responsible for other humans while I figure it out.

[UBPDHelp]

Following up on Cat's point about trying to understand the why...

When you reach Radical Acceptance that the pwPD is mentally ill, and (s)he/he is who he is, there are some very difficult emotions to work through, and they are different from the emotions leading up to Radical Acceptance.

One of these emotions is deep hurt. It hurts that the person you loved, whom you thought loved you enough to commit to marriage, with whom you had children -- in the end cannot make you and your marriage a priority over his/her mental illness. He just can't. And it hurts to feel like a riunner-up to the grip of a mental illness.

Another emotion is grief, growing out of the above. It is the letting go of all the hopes, dreams, and aspirations that could have come from the relationship. As you know, grieving has its own path to work through (I found it a necessary process in order to accept my mother's limitations and maintain my boundaries -- I will never have a mother/daughter relationship as I imagined could be.)

Are you closer to Radical Acceptance than you were last week?

I’m mostly there. I recognize he is who he is. It’s not changing. But when he’s behaving reasonably, it makes me question. But I know it won’t last.

I’m almost there...yes, closer this week, GaGrl, thank you for asking.

[UBPDHelp]

UBPDHelp

Keep up the good work...the hard work.  Coming to terms with all of this is difficult. 

My time is limited, so I'll try to answer questions...likely tomorrow.

You are getting great advice here.  If you have extra time...get something to drink and read stolencrumbs info several times.   Let it sink in...

You've got this...and we've got your back! 

Best,

FF

Thanks FF, enjoy your night...my issues will be here tomorrow, for sure.

Working it through...reading, rereading.

[UBPDHelp]

Hi Ubpdhelp,

I'm on limited time, too, so I apologize for not using quotes. You asked for examples of the difference in processing your feelings and responding to the tactics of a partner who employs power struggle tactics in an abusive way.

Basically, what I mean by this is that when you have an abusive partner who does things to obstruct you or keep you in a one down position, the response to these behaviors is setting and holding a boundary. It may even be helpful for you to anticipate what the enforcement of a boundary would look like on different levels. For instance, if you believe (based on your past experience of similar situations) that if he demands the names of people you work with/for because he wants to research those people, find fault with them, then demand that you quit or whatever, the boundary could be that you protect your privacy surrounding your job and decline to disclose the information. If he rages at you or sends you nasty texts because of this, the boundary could be that you protect yourself from verbal abuse by leaving/shutting off the phone. If he escalates into physically threatening behavior by breaking things, etc., the boundary could be that you will protect your physical safety by calling the police.

It can be scary to think of the different levels of boundaries that may be necessary to deal with someone who is used to using intimidation to get his way, but it can help to plan out ahead of time what action will be necessary to hold the boundary.

Thank you for explaining.  I’ve implemented boundaries. I need so many...he is getting worse in some areas (ranting political, religious ideology) that I can’t stomach on top of usual.

Now. How do you feel about having to set all these boundaries? That is something to think about during a time when you are not having to actively set or hold a boundary. When you are about to go to bed, when you are having coffee in the morning, whatever. Write down your feelings, or type them out in a secure document. It's perfectly natural to feel frustrated or angry for having to put in so much effort just to protect yourself in a marriage. It's okay to feel cheated or a sense of injustice (or however it is you feel) that you don't feel safe emotionally in  your marriage.

I feel terrible. It’s not something I can reasonably do. There simply will be nothing left to have for a relationship. 

Many of us have had to grieve the loss of what we hoped our relationship could be. That includes people who stayed in the relationship and people who left. After I left, I found I was grieving for what I thought I could have with him more than the actual relationship I had. What I had was abuse. What I wanted was a loving, supportive partner. I had to grieve for the loss of the r/s I strove to have, but didn't.

Stay or go, you will face the limitations of this r/s and you will need to sit with your feelings surrounding that and process them in order to move forward. Just don't let those feelings bleed over into your need to set boundaries. Is it frustrating that you need to set so many? Does it feel unfair? Does it make you downright mad? It's okay if all of those are true, but try to separate those from the actions you need to take.

Thank you. I definitely want to find some semblance of peace. My kids deserve it.

I’m still scared but I have to rise up and take care of this. We all deserve better. We just do.