manage the unmanageable; she's cheating, I can't leave

[EyesUp]

As the reality of my wife's behavior has been sinking in, I've run through the full range of emotions from gut punch to lucidity. It's been a big help to read about others' experiences.

My question is for the BPD survivors - what are the "success" stories, if there is such a thing?

I fear that if I directly confront my wife, it will inevitably deteriorate into an unrecoverable situation.  If I disrupt her affair, she will have guilt, depression - and channel all that back to me.

What are some strategies to guide her, or influencer her, to end it on her own?

I recognize the very real possibility that she's doing this to feel good and/or to get caught and have her worst fears validated.  The truth is that I am prepared to stand by her and attempt to forge a path forward, but I'm not sure if she'll believe this or accept it.  Which brings me back to the risk of confrontation.

For the past week, I've been on a charm offensive - offering validation, etc.  Not a single argument or conflict for a week.  Lots of discussion about shared memories, and future plans.

This site has been like an owner's manual for understanding a BPD spouse, I wish I had understood the way I contribute to her negative responses years ago (therapists - zero help).  That's not to say I blame myself, only that I can finally understand what's happening.

Worst case, I need time to get finances in order - could be 12-18 months, as I have nowhere to go and no funds. The fact is that I have a significant income, but I've absorbed a ton of debt since she quit her last job 2 years ago. I've spoken with lawyers and we've run alimony/child support scenarios - a divorce would likely mean that she keeps the house, but can't afford it, our kids would face massive disruption.  Our negative net worth would further complicate matters. There are a lot of resources out there for women, what are men supposed to do?

Current feeling is that my best option is to try to make her feel like a million bucks until I have my ducks in a row.  But maybe that's denial and/or avoidance talking.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[once removed]

My question is for the BPD survivors - what are the "success" stories, if there is such a thing?

there is a success stories thread pinned near the top of the board.

the "success" stories for infidelity are fewer.

its a real challenge youre up against. not an impossible one. but a hard road. go into it with eyes wide open. know your limits.

I fear that if I directly confront my wife, it will inevitably deteriorate into an unrecoverable situation.  If I disrupt her affair, she will have guilt, depression - and channel all that back to me.

What are some strategies to guide her, or influencer her, to end it on her own?

the really difficult answer is that youre probably right on both fronts, and that there is no simple answer when it comes to influencing this.

but if you are looking for advice: keep doing what youre doing, but additionally, romance her.

affairs are about escape. romance is about fantasy, and in a consensual, adult, real relationship, romance (intimacy) is the essential part of a relationship that women will say is lacking in their relationship. i think from the sound of it, youre in the process of establishing the intimacy part...sex is part of that..a validating home environment is part of that...romance is another.

it is not a silver bullet to the emotional turmoil you are going through, but "showing her a good time", and connecting on another level will go a very long way.

[pursuingJoy]

EyesUp, I admire your ability to consider all of the options. Agree with you and once removed that these scenarios are possible. I'm a second vote for romancing, in a genuine way, for the purpose of building intimacy and trust. Shoring up your foundation may even pave the way for you to bring all of this into the light, discuss it, and recover in relative safety rather than in a storm.

Definitely check out the success stories here and remember that most of us are posting in a moment of crisis. I'm way less likely to post after a great few days than after a big fight.

I can share a bit of my own success. There were a few points last year where I didn't think we were going to make it. I have now learned healthy and unhealthy ways to respond. I am pleasantly surprised at the difference it's made in our marriage, but it's not just that - I feel better. 

Learning about the disorder helped me take things less personally. When the dysregulation happens, it doesn't hurt me, so I don't feel compelled to fix it or withdraw. I got back in touch with my core and spent time thinking about what really mattered to me. I am able to identify what to let go, what to set firm boundaries around, and how to set the boundaries. As far as self-awareness, you're way ahead of where I was when I found bpdfamily.   

The hardest part for me was accepting that I couldn't control my husband. I can't change him. He is different today than when we married, and who he chooses to be is up to him. He is responsible for his own mental health. He is responsible for self-soothing and dealing with his wounds from his mom. I have to release all of that.

Check in with yourself, what you're feeling. You'll most likely cycle through a wide range of emotions. What parts are yours, what parts are hers? Are you different than you were five years ago? Why?

[EyesUp]

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

I'm preparing for the confrontation and I can sense that her defenses are already up.

She has ignored gifts (flowers, shopping), and attempted to provoke arguments - certainly to justify her actions and avoid guilt and shame.

I know that confronting the infidelity will instantly make me the one who is introducing guilt and shame.  I've received a lot of good advice re: stay calm, stick to facts, offer assurance, avoid threats.

At this point I'm mainly concerned about two things:

The first is anticipating the crazy so I can at least attempt to avoid a nuclear explosion.

The second is that part of the cheating behavior is super high risk, which suggests to me that there is something else going on here.  Last night, my wife attended a book group with friends - mostly moms of our youngest daughter.  The host is both the mom of our daughter's friend, and the wife of the guy my wife is having an affair with.  She messaged him ahead of time to ask him to sit next to her, and to put his hand up her skirt with others present. 

I guess she needs extra risk to feel something?  But does this indicate something else about her state of mind? 

We live in a small town, this is needlessly risky behavior, and it's a transgression against me as well as our kids - and her friend, the other mom.

What else do I need to consider here?

[pursuingJoy]

EyesUp, her behavior also strikes me as self-destructive. Do you think she wants to get caught?

[EyesUp]

EyesUp, her behavior also strikes me as self-destructive. Do you think she wants to get caught?

Yes, possibly.

We had a productive discussion this AM in which she was perfectly accessible, only defensive in a few specific moments.  I'm learning her triggers thanks what I've learned here and elsewhere. 

Hard to say if her emptiness and pain has been so severe that she's doing risky stuff just to feel something, or as an excuse to end the marriage, or as the ultimate abandonment test, or something else - maybe a combination.

I've let her know that I suspect something, but stopped short of making a direct accusation or confrontation.  The first time she laughed it off, the second time she categorically denied it, the third time she stated "well, we are still having sex" (true story - yikes!), and today she just listened and asked "why do you think that?"

I replied that she's demonstrating all the classic signs:
- changed appearance/dress
- constantly checking phone
- trying new drinks, drinking more
- not available / accessible - seeking more alone time

She mostly just listened, but choked up a bit (which gives me hope beyond hope that she merely has BPD behaviors and not full blown BPD - possible?), and only once started to explode with defensiveness - about the phone.

I noted that we've flipped - she always used to tell me "no phones at the dinner table" which I internalized, but now she's always checking her phone at dinner - to which she replied "are you saying I'm not a good mother and don't always have dinner ready" - rope-a-dope.  I diffused it, but there it is.  Not even sure she was trying to conceal her behavior, I think she genuinely heard "problem at dinner" vs. understanding the context of the comment.  This is where she is BPD-ish.

We spoke for almost 45 mins without raised voices, and she both listened and shared her concerns about me as well.

Hard to say if I'm in denial or have some misplaced optimism.

[pursuingJoy]

I don't think it's denial or misplaced optimism. I see the same good signs in this morning's conversation that you do.

The conversation you had this morning could be a sign that things are headed in a better direction, and I'm so glad the tools are helping. I trust your intuition, so I'm not even sure why I feel compelled to bring up this practical caution: the things that brought her to this point didn't happen overnight, and they won't go away overnight, no matter how much you shift your approach.

BPD is on a spectrum, and it's often hard to tell where people fall. You may experience a push/pull dynamic. Sometimes when they feel close, they'll push out of fear of engulfment.

Was this in counseling or at home? I know counseling was happening soon, right?

[EyesUp]

thanks for the reinforcement.

first day of counseling is tomorrow, this was part of our "prep" talk, and it occurred on the phone while she was en route to an annual mammogram that typically causes significant stress (she's fine, as usual).

[EyesUp]

I'd appreciate any insight re: high risk / self-destructive behavior.

This isn't just about me, it's also about our daughter(s).

This implies a more general issue, not limited to our marriage.

Are there any precautions or considerations I should take before a confrontation?

[Brooklyn1974]

I know there are others that are better suited to answer your question but my wife in the past cheated on me twice.  She was drunk when she told me about it.  Looking back there were red flags.

She apologized for it but that was it.  When I asked her why her reply was 'for the thrill of it'.  Of course I was devastated and it doesn't give me much comfort for her to not do it again.  She blamed it on the drinking but you know as well as I do even when drunk you are still capable of making decisions and the one wasn't a one night stand either.

Every time afterwards I would bring it up, she would get extremely defensive and not want to talk about it.  Guess she couldn't handle the shame, who knows..

I don't know how your wife is going to react but you seem more concerned about her reaction than your own feelings towards this.  Is this something you can continue to tolerate?  Personally in my situation it has turned me into being resentful towards her at times and the way I dealt with it was to ignore her.  Ignoring my wife is probably the worst thing you could do however it was the only way I could stop myself from getting upset in front of her, especially since she shut me down when I did want to talk about it.

Part of me feels like it doesn't matter why she did it, that it's done and she's capable of doing it again.  It hit the foundation of our relationship and she doesn't seem to care.

What concerns me is that your wife is lying to you about this and when confronted with the evidence only you can probably answer that.  Do you think you can set boundaries/limits? 

[EyesUp]

The confrontation unfolded last night.

We planned to talk prior to our first therapy meeting today, and the discussion unfolded.

She commented that she perceives some changes in me...  midlife crisis?  Early onset dementia?  I countered that the changes might be in her.   I calmly reiterated all the changes:
- dress
- confidence
- trying new drinks
- asking for time alone
- constantly checking her phone

I assured her that I'm not leaving, I don't want a divorce, and I'm prepared to work it out.  

She choked up, basically acknowledged that my suspicions were true - but stopped short of an actual confession or admission, it was about body language and an unspoken acknowledgement.

It quickly turned into "why can't I be the one that gets to feel good?" and "why am I the bad guy?" and I found myself in the compromised position...   I told her that it's not my goal to pour on guilt or shame, and that she will need to process it - and I will support her - and that I'd like to work on finding a way to bring back the good vibes in our relationship so that she doesn't need to look outside.

I also emphasized some of the practical concerns about living in a small town, and the importance of managing the situation before it becomes a full blown addiction or worse - which she acknowledged.

Overall, except for the fact that she was not completely forthcoming, attempted to play it off as an emotional affair first (I had to confront her with some evidence of the other stuff), I thought it went better than expected - no shouting, no fighting.

This AM I asked about how she intends to break it off, and again she was a bit defensive, but ultimately acknowledged what's needed to move forward.   She said some kind things, she also does not want a divorce, actually thanked me (haven't heard any kind of thank you from her in ages).  She knew the relationship wasn't going anywhere - she's 46, he's 32.  I think I committed a foul when I tried to give her a boost of sorts and said "you bagged a young stud, good for you".  I think my wife isn't afraid of abandonment as much as rejection, and I have no doubt that this whole thing, while toxic to our relationship, has been good for her self esteem (at least in one way).

I know I need to set some expectations in more explicit terms about how we move forward.

The tricky part is that our kids are friends and in school together, all the moms hang out, my wife and the wife of her boytoy are in a book club together.  It's a small town, and I don't think it's possible for my wife to completely exit the relationship - this guy is going to be around.  We're not moving and neither are they, so the "cold turkey" approach is difficult at best.

I slept slightly better last night for the first time in a while, but this AM I see a long road ahead.

What else do I need to look for?

[EyesUp]

Our second couples therapy session is tomorrow, it will be the day we share the scope of the situation with the therapist.

My wife is at turns impatient, avoidant, defensive, and apologetic.

The topic that provokes her rage is when I probe re: how she processed her actions relative to our kids.  i.e., her affair was with the father of our youngest daughter's friend. 

She brought him into our home when I took the kids canoeing.  We very nearly walked in on them.  He parked in front of our house.  It's like she wanted to be caught.

I've asked her directly if she wanted to end the marriage, and she says no.  When pushed, you know what usually happens in this situation, she gets defensive.

I've acknowledged that our relationship could be better, but also asked - why not a guy from the gym, or Starbucks, or somewhere else?  Why someone so close?  It seems like an avoidable risk.

At this, she responds honestly - he was the one who showed interest; it felt good.  And then she rages - how dare I question her commitment to the children.  She would never do anything to harm them.  It's as if she has completely separated fact from action.   She's basically said, why would I expect her to choose between her pleasure and her children (of course, never "our children").

I'm feeling particularly vulnerable and exposed, and she seems conflicted at best.

I realize I might be in the wrong place here - she doesn't seem to be concerned about abandonment, although she does have other BPD attributes.  She may be the daughter of a BPD mother - also processing trauma. 

Our therapist practices DBT and I've been reading The High Conflict Couple - it's on point. Not sure if I can get my wife to read it any time soon.  I understand that patience is the key, but I'm super nervous and anxious all the time, not sleeping well, etc. 

Any other resources out there I should explore to get a better grip on what I'm dealing with?

[pursuingJoy]

And then she rages - how dare I question her commitment to the children.  She would never do anything to harm them.  

I'm interested that this triggered an emotional reaction. Do you think she knows, on some level, that her behavior could have really hurt the kids? I'm wondering if there's some shame, she knows she violated her value of protecting and loving her kids.

and she seems conflicted at best.

once removed and others here may have different thoughts, but my gut is that she feels shame, perhaps confusion, and needs some time with her thoughts. Take this advice with a grain of salt from someone who, in the midst of grieving, made the mistake of trying to talk my H through his behavior, in an effort to help him (and me!) understand. It didn't work, and he reacted like I'd attacked him. It's frustrating and counter intuitive, but me stepping back helped him sort out some of the why.

The problem is, it gave my grief no where to go. I was left without resolution, in limbo. Vulnerable and exposed. The only thing that helped was to double down on self-care. Therapy, venting and validation on this forum, vitamin supplements, exercise, shopping with my kids, girls night out...these things have sustained me while my H sorts out his stuff. It does take patience but you can use your time well.

You know your situation better than I. There's a time to speak and a time to be silent. You'll approach whatever you do with thoughtfulness and wisdom.

I realize I might be in the wrong place here - she doesn't seem to be concerned about abandonment, although she does have other BPD attributes.  She may be the daughter of a BPD mother - also processing trauma.  

This isn't the wrong place. If it helps, stay. This forum and the tools we learn are applicable whether the person is diagnosed or not.

I've been reading The High Conflict Couple - it's on point.

What's on point? What stands out to you?

[EyesUp]

I'm interested that this triggered an emotional reaction. Do you think she knows, on some level, that her behavior could have really hurt the kids? I'm wondering if there's some shame, she knows she violated her value of protecting and loving her kids.

once removed and others here may have different thoughts, but my gut is that she feels shame, perhaps confusion, and needs some time with her thoughts. Take this advice with a grain of salt from someone who, in the midst of grieving, made the mistake of trying to talk my H through his behavior, in an effort to help him (and me!) understand. It didn't work, and he reacted like I'd attacked him. It's frustrating and counter intuitive, but me stepping back helped him sort out some of the why.

The problem is, it gave my grief no where to go. I was left without resolution, in limbo. Vulnerable and exposed. The only thing that helped was to double down on self-care. Therapy, venting and validation on this forum, vitamin supplements, exercise, shopping with my kids, girls night out...these things have sustained me while my H sorts out his stuff. It does take patience but you can use your time well.

You know your situation better than I. There's a time to speak and a time to be silent. You'll approach whatever you do with thoughtfulness and wisdom.

This isn't the wrong place. If it helps, stay. This forum and the tools we learn are applicable whether the person is diagnosed or not.

What's on point? What stands out to you?

Thanks for your comments - great insight, and greatly appreciated.

I suspect you hit the nail on the head.  Last night she acknowledged for the first time that she's having difficulty seeing the wife of her guy every day at pre-k pickup/dropoff (surprise!).

And after a week of mixed attitudes, she's become increasingly upset as we head into our therapy session.  I've offered some assurance that my goal is not to beat her up, it's to open up and listen, which seems to have at least partially alleviated her concern.  She initially said "this is entirely for you, you picked the therapist, you already have a relationship" which I had to gently remind her was not the case - we met the therapist for the first time together, she was recommended by a service, etc.

It's a wild ride - watching her slowly realize what she's done (it's going to get worse, I know), and continue to fabricate defenses, decoys, distractions at the same time.

re: The High Conflict Couple...  comments re: Emotional Goals (p85 in the paperback edition) that explain the difficulty in communicating emotional goals in distressed relationships - super helpful both to me (sorting through my own seemingly compromised ability to communicate), and to her (understanding why her translator turns benign statements into raging criticism).

I have not shared the book with her yet, although she saw it on my nightstand and gave a raised eyebrow. It's going to take some practice to put this to work, but it feels like direction from an effective coach, or at least someone who's been watching over my shoulder.  Obviously, both parties need be recognized, understood.

T-2 hours to therapy.  Not exactly the best weekend warmup, but I'll take it.

Thanks again, and good luck to all of us. 

[pursuingJoy]

I've offered some assurance that my goal is not to beat her up, it's to open up and listen, which seems to have at least partially alleviated her concern. 

Wow. This is an effective message. 

Obviously, both parties need be recognized, understood.

I'm glad to hear you say this, because your needs and wants matter as much as hers. I spent 99% of my time here, reading, and in therapy, trying to understand my H. Folks here noted that and applauded it, but also said, 'where are you in all of this? what do you want?' It was almost harder to shift that tide and think about what I wanted. Still working on it.

I'll be thinking about you two in counseling this morning. Sending all the good vibes and hopes for a productive session. Check back in and let us know how it goes.

[EyesUp]

Last Friday's session was positive overall.

I'm coming to the conclusion that my wife has BPD traits, but may not be full blown BPD.

There are clear issues, like the way she devalues me, hears criticism in the most benign communication, and explodes when stressed - however she is able to express emotion and clearly cares deeply our kids (which she sometimes refers to as "my kids" - ouch).

In the session, she expressed concern about the irony that she's the bad buy for cheating, after many years of feeling bad about our relationship - she's content to lay the blame on me, although she does acknowledge that it takes two...  

I think our counselor perked up a bit when she heard this - it's an unusual position to take, for sure - "why am I the bad guy?"

I continue to acknowledge her feelings without attacking.

She's proactively apologized a few times...  "I never meant to hurt you" and "Sorry" and "you're my best friend" etc.

These statements are counter-balanced by other statements.

e.g., my wife has stated that reading "Three Women" by Lisa Taddeo was "life changing".

If you haven't read the book, it's marketed as an unflinching document of female desire, but that's just marketing/packaging.  It's about three women who have extra-marital affairs as they process long-standing trauma, and navigate dysfunctional relationships.  The book documents the sex in detail, which seems less about desire and more about obsession / addiction behaviors that often follow trauma, e.g., eating disorders, or sexual abuse.

In my case, I think the book certainly played a role as my wife identified with two of the characters - even though our specific relationship and her specific traumas were never as fraught as those in the book.  In her BPD-ish way, it must have seemed like "this is me!" back in March/April/May when she was really suffering in pandemic shut down - she retreated from me.

And then in May, along came some interest from a player, and my wife was hooked.  

Now the truth is starting to sink in:
- she put everything at risk
- she rationalized it, justified it
- she devalued me
- she's horrified by the idea that members of her family could find out, or that her personal relationships could be impacted
- he was a player in it for sex, while she was getting some emotional boost - she got played

I can see that it's really sinking in today - it seems the guilt and shame are flooding in.

My new task is to help her manage her own guilt and shame without letting her off the hook.

Looking forward, I'm wondering if it's possible to rebuild a bond and reestablish trust on some level - or if she will always be susceptible when she's not feeling good for whatever reason.

At the very least, we'll be in this situation for at least another ~6 months as the second round of the pandemic plays out and we're effectively locked in the house together with our three kids.

Again, lots of reasons for encouragement that she's not full blown BPD - but still many BPD attributes and behaviors to try to manage, one way or another.

[pursuingJoy]

Thanks for the update, I was wondering how it went on Friday.

(which she sometimes refers to as "my kids" - ouch)

You've mentioned this twice - is it worth bringing up to her? It would bother me too.

In the session, she expressed concern about the irony that she's the bad buy for cheating, after many years of feeling bad about our relationship - she's content to lay the blame on me, although she does acknowledge that it takes two...  

I think our counselor perked up a bit when she heard this - it's an unusual position to take, for sure - "why am I the bad guy?"

My H cheated on his ex-wife after many years of a dysfunctional relationship, so we've talked a lot about this. If your wife was unhappy, she was responsible to voice it and address it with you. If you didn't listen or respond, she had a host of other decisions she could have made. People navigate difficult relationships every day without resorting to affairs. Her response sounds like shame-based defensiveness and she is responsible for her poor choices.

As an aside, I find it interesting that my H, looking back on his behavior, says, "It's amazing, when you're in it, you really believe your own lies."

I continue to acknowledge her feelings without attacking.

What does this look like?

She's proactively apologized a few times...  "I never meant to hurt you" and "Sorry" and "you're my best friend" etc.

These statements are counter-balanced by other statements.

I can so relate, we had the same dynamic in our counseling sessions. My H wasn't apologizing, he was ashamed and trying to level the playing field to make himself feel better. It helped me a lot to look up what a real apology should sound like.

e.g., my wife has stated that reading "Three Women" by Lisa Taddeo was "life changing".

In my case, I think the book certainly played a role as my wife identified with two of the characters - even though our specific relationship and her specific traumas were never as fraught as those in the book.  

My first thought was that your wife was just looking for something to justify her behavior, and that's possible, but maybe she's onto something here. Traumas, even those we might deem lesser, have a weird way of biting us in the rear if they're left unaddressed. Has your wife ever processed her past trauma? Is it possible that it's driving some of her behavior now? That wouldn't justify the affair in any way, but we've seen some really self-destructive behavior. Is it possible that something more than BPD is behind that?

Now the truth is starting to sink in:
- she put everything at risk
- she rationalized it, justified it
- she devalued me
- she's horrified by the idea that members of her family could find out, or that her personal relationships could be impacted
- he was a player in it for sex, while she was getting some emotional boost - she got played

I can see that it's really sinking in today - it seems the guilt and shame are flooding in.

Sinking in for her, right? Is she pretty open with you about all this, or are you noticing behaviors that make you think she understands?

My new task is to help her manage her own guilt and shame without letting her off the hook.

Do you mind if I tweak your wording here? My new task is to give her space to manage her own guilt and shame without letting her off the hook.

Again, lots of reasons for encouragement that she's not full blown BPD - but still many BPD attributes and behaviors to try to manage, one way or another.

I'm glad you're feeling better about this, and it sounds like you're pretty realistic about what's to come, regardless of where she falls on the BPD scale.

[EyesUp]

Sorry I lack the 'excerpt' jiujitsu...

I'll try to respond to the questions:
"my kids" vs. "our kids" - to your other point re: "give her space" - I pick my battles.  But this has been a pattern for a while.  I clearly see how am I routinely devalued...

"acknowledge without attacking"...
an example would be to say that I understand how my travel has impacted her, and raised trust issues - even though I've been committed.  I noted that the fact that she's suffered, been anxious about relationship security - even though I am and have been fully committed - is a Greek tragedy.  No response...

Traumas... 
My wife was sexually abused by a boyfriend as a teenager. Basically, she was expected to provide oral sex, he did not reciprocate. She's also had/has an eating disorder and dysmorphia and is super self conscious about appearance, including scoliosis - she hates swimsuits.

One of her defenses is to devalue my compliments - "you look great" often gets "you're just saying that" or "no I don't" or "my face is fat and wrinkly and I need botox" rather than "thanks" or anything positive - and then later she'll tell me that she feels invisible, not really seen by me. 

The fact is that she's very attractive and super fit, and I think she's incredibly attractive - one of the reasons I married her.  But she's somewhat resistant to accept this from me, and now states that it's one of the reasons she did what she did - it was great to feel appreciation and interest from someone else.  Ouch.

So, yes, unprocessed past trauma combined with defensive devaluation of me.

sinking in...
For her.  She's been semi depressed the past two days or so.  Her comments range from saying the right thing to the wrong thing...  more of "why am I the bad guy?" and "I should have just stayed in my lane" comments which shift blame and avoid accountability, while at least acknowledging the problem.

"Give her space"
Excellent advice, again - thanks.  We're 10 days past d-day, unclear if we have the patience to ride this out over weeks and months. 

Today I made the mistake of asking her to fully cut off the AP, and incurred her wrath.  "Stop harassing me!"

oops.

[pursuingJoy]

Sorry I lack the 'excerpt' jiujitsu...

On the top right corner of the last comment, click on "Excerpt." You'll see the text show up with something like this before the text...

[  quote author=EyesUp link=topic=345716.msg13121673#msg13121673 date=1598374781 ]

...and something like this after the text...

[  quote  ]

Use copy/paste to make sure the quote you want is sandwiched between those two phrases. Delete what you don't want. Try it, you'll have a few minutes to modify (button on the top right of the post) your response if it doesn't work the first time.

I clearly see how am I routinely devalued...

This is tough. You're smart to pick your battles. I hope the day comes when you can address this.

"acknowledge without attacking"...
an example would be to say that I understand how my travel has impacted her, and raised trust issues - even though I've been committed.  I noted that the fact that she's suffered, been anxious about relationship security - even though I am and have been fully committed - is a Greek tragedy.  No response...

It sounds like you're an exceptionally validating person, which is amazing, just watch that line and make sure you're not validating the invalid, or normalizing negative behaviors. I admire your desire to reassure her but also, her trust issues are hers to manage. Certainly you can be thoughtful, but take care not to take on more than what is yours.

One of her defenses is to devalue my compliments

I did a quick search on this forum for BPD's accepting compliments and it brought up a few threads. It seems that simultaneously asking for and rejecting compliments from a spouse is really common, as is appreciating attention from complete strangers. I'm curious about where this comes from.

Today I made the mistake of asking her to fully cut off the AP, and incurred her wrath.  "Stop harassing me!"

Is this something you need, though? Regardless of how angry she gets? Her anger is only one factor in all of this.

[EyesUp]

I did a quick search on this forum for BPD's accepting compliments and it brought up a few threads. It seems that simultaneously asking for and rejecting compliments from a spouse is really common, as is appreciating attention from complete strangers. I'm curious about where this comes from.

Good discussion, I think, of devaluation here... it's biased toward female BPDs, but likely has applicability for any BPD, imo. www.nicolamethodforhighconflict.com/romantic-idealization-and-devaluation

I appreciate the way Nicola describes BPD behaviors that may or may not be associated with a BPD diagnosis.  

Aspects of her theory fit my relationship with my BPD-ish wife perfectly...  
- relationship insecurity
- defensive behaviors that have become ingrained
- "when interest turns to obsession" fits my wife's pattern of obsessive responses to emotional conflicts, and anxiety

Nicola states: "What drives idealization and devaluation by women in romantic relationships at a very basic level is relationship insecurity. There are many factors that can lead to relationship insecurity, but the one we will be addressing is insecurity caused by idealizing women who enter into committed relationships without establishing sufficient trust with their partner."

And as I've noted elsewhere, my wife has never fully processed my potential infidelities prior to marriage (she found a love letter I received, and there was a time I was not where I was supposed to be - although she had a similar indiscretion once - I moved on, she did not).  The trauma was likely seeded in an experience before she met me - an ex-bf broke up with her after she traveled to Nicaragua to meet him (!), I don't think she's recovered yet.

Over the years, we've had our share of communication challenges, but also other events that have likely become traumas - financial challenges when she quit a job without much planning (emotional meltdown), a terminated pregnancy (again, due to financial circumstances - she blames me), etc.  All of this accumulates and builds resentment, which she typically processes via projection on to me (vs. accepting any responsibility), and which reinforces the idea of relationship insecurity.

Meanwhile, I've been a road warrior - so she spends time at home alone worrying about how I spend my nights and evenings - whether I deserve her suspicion or not.

Unclear if the current debacle was her attempt to test my commitment, or enact revenge, or simply an unregulated response to unexpected and exciting interest from a much younger guy.  Or all of the above.

I think she's starting to process that she got played by a player, and she's angry with herself for the emotional investment she made, as well as some of the inevitable guilt and shame that accompanies the fallout.

It's not going to be easy to get her to accept any culpability for her perspective on the circumstances that led up to this.  She lays blame at my feet for ~11 years of unhappiness (massive exaggeration) while raising three kids to this point.

I've reminded her that after the 2nd kid, I repeatedly told her that I was ready to get back to focusing on us, and that we've traveled many times without kids - my 50th birthday present was taking her to Chicago for the weekend, etc etc etc, and all the times I've initiated sex, and all the times I've given her unexpected gifts (which she occasionally diminishes - "I wasn't expecting anything" or "I didn't know we were exchanging gifts").  

Yet she will insist that I'm the source of negativity.

Nicola has some advice here, too:  www.nicolamethodforhighconflict.com/women-on-the-spectrum-of-bpd-devaluation

Worth acknowledging that Nicola is very direct on these types of relationships:  Get out, except in cases like mine where the relationship is heavily invested, with kids, with significant financial consequences.  

Not everyone will agree, of course.

[once removed]

re "is she bpd or bpd-ish":

most of the bpd loved ones described here would not reach the threshold for a clinical diagnosis. its a little bit, but not at all entirely, semantics. you can have a far more difficult person to be with who is lower on the threshold, or vice versa. diagnosis usually comes as a result of a major crisis (suicide attempt, drug overdose, eating disorder) rather than just presenting with traits, even pronounced. one way to put it is the amount of difficulty they are having in their own life as far as coping, not the difficulty they are causing or having with others.

the tools here work with everyone - i dont have anyone with bpd in my life, and i use them all the time. they will be invaluable to you in this process.

joanna nicola is not a mental health professional; she has some constructive advice when it comes to conflict...youll get more out of the high conflict couple.

as far as what you are experiencing, think of an addict. an addict, confronted, will feel cornered. some will be more receptive or upfront than others that there is a problem. the weight of that problem may not be something they are going to able to face any time soon, at least consistently.

in other words, your wife is going to be all over the place about this. youve been patient beyond words; this is where it may be needed most.

a member here described affairs as similar to a three legged stool: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=311567.0;prev_next=next

one of those legs has been suddenly kicked out from under her. coping with that will not come naturally for her. it wont for you, either.

pay mind to what she says about the marriage, what she feels shes been missing, her complaints. know that at the same time, some of it is defensiveness and deflection to rid off shame, and for the time being, its going to be hard to separate whats what. "why am i the bad guy" is one example. an addict says "other people drink x amount, i dont even drink that much, or i dont do it as often, why should i have to change". or "you get to drink, do i not get to drink at all?".

you have a solid feel for the problems, from her perspective, yours, both of yours, that have been a part of the relationship (a terminated pregnancy is an enormous hardship on the strongest of relationships). that will serve you enormously.

the real test has only just begun.

[EyesUp]

@once removed - thank you.

Your words and insight are appreciated.

I read the thread re: 3-legged stool. A few gems in there. Yes, I've recently heard "he said things you've never said" and also "he just wanted sex" (i.e., he sucks, too). She is, as you said, all over the place. I know it will be like this for a while.

Lots of work, e.g., how to navigate / modulate with our couples T?  I want to shout "she's built up a range of defenses, including aggressively devaluing me to justify her emotional positions" but that will only put her back up against the wall.

Patience, I know.

[pursuingJoy]

I want to shout "she's built up a range of defenses, including aggressively devaluing me to justify her emotional positions" but that will only put her back up against the wall.

Patience, yes, esp in joint sessions, but I wonder if it wouldn't do you some good to say that out loud in a safe setting. I often felt that our marriage counselor was missing big pieces of important information because H can be pretty smooth when he wants to be. Our MC suggested we both have individual sessions with her, which helped us both say what we felt we couldn't in a joint session. If that's not an option, finding your own therapist might be a good idea, just to give you the space to say whatever you need to and get validation and insight.

[EyesUp]

Patience, yes, esp in joint sessions, but I wonder if it wouldn't do you some good to say that out loud in a safe setting. I often felt that our marriage counselor was missing big pieces of important information because H can be pretty smooth when he wants to be. Our MC suggested we both have individual sessions with her, which helped us both say what we felt we couldn't in a joint session. If that's not an option, finding your own therapist might be a good idea, just to give you the space to say whatever you need to and get validation and insight.

Thanks, yes, all good points.  I do have my own therapist.  Our MC has not proposed 1:1 sessions yet, but we will likely request this as my W has already started voicing concerns that the MC is on my side, or sees her as the bad guy, etc. - casting doubt on the process. 

It's just over 2 weeks since d-day, and she's still in denial. She is seeking my sympathy because her AP hasn't tried to reengage, and she's feeling rejected. Awesome.

Trying to establish boundaries, but it's difficult when she still relies on me for all types of support - and when the AP and AP's W are not 100% cut off due to exposure in our small town / community activities. 

It occurred to me this weekend that this may not be a sustainable situation.

[pursuingJoy]

She is seeking my sympathy because her AP hasn't tried to reengage, and she's feeling rejected. Awesome.

Is she openly telling you he's not responding or are you getting context clues? Mostly curious if she's this open with her conversation.

In what way are you having difficulty establishing boundaries? Can you be specific?

It occurred to me this weekend that this may not be a sustainable situation.

It's possible, just like it's possible that the tide may shift. It might be too early to say.

How are you, EyesUp? Is some of this hitting you in a different way?

[EyesUp]

Is she openly telling you he's not responding or are you getting context clues? Mostly curious if she's this open with her conversation.

Over the past 2+ weeks, my W has made comments that range from:
- I'm sorry (unprovoked)
- I never should have done this
- It wasn't about you, I tried to resist, I didn't do this / he (AP) pursued me
(this is where the blame shift begins)

to...
- It's not about the last ~10 weeks (affair), it's about what happened the last ~11 years (full on blame shift to me)
- I should have just stayed in my lane
- He (AP) doesn't want me anyway, it's over, I haven't heard from him
- He just wanted sex
- He said things I've never heard before, e.g., "you have a great body, you are so beautiful, etc." (obviously false statement / idealization)
- It was empowering (holding on)
- I'm so old, I have wrinkles, I need botox... 
- Do you think I look much older than my (younger) sisters?

In short, a lot of selfish behavior continues. Her apologies are generally reactive, and feel somewhat perfunctory. She is responsive to my concerns and moods and checks in, but it usually seems like a burden to her...  Her general attitude is "we need to look forward and stop going over the past" which is not entirely wrong, but not particularly supportive.

In what way are you having difficulty establishing boundaries? Can you be specific?

It's possible, just like it's possible that the tide may shift. It might be too early to say.

How are you, EyesUp? Is some of this hitting you in a different way?

It's been difficult to establish any agreement to break off the AP + AP's W, or at least contain exposure.  My W continues to socialize with her AP's W through her book group and through the mom's group via school, and often comments on the AP's W's views on the pandemic, school reopening, etc. etc.  - it's clearly a way to keep a window open, even as my W also comments on how her AP's W is not so smart. They are connected on FB and interact almost daily online or in person. Again, small town situation. I suggested that she should mute or take some action short of fully unfriending both the AP and APW, and was told that I am too controlling - "I'm not your property".  So, yeah...  boundaries.

I've started to consider things that I know are not in anyone's best interest, e.g., informing the AP's W about what's happened. I know that path leads to mutual assured destruction, I don't intend to actually take this action - but I clearly want more definitive action than my W is prepared to provide, so I obsess about options.

I suspect that she's still in the fog to some degree, and will eventually hate the AP whenever she finally wakes up - but it's not clear that she will feel any better or differently about me.

And my W continues to reference "Three Women" by Taddeo as "life changing" - basically three women who have affairs to address past traumas, with minimal attention to consequences, but a lot of attention to sex...  Taddeo has written other essays about monogamy as boring, and celebrated affairs as the most thrilling thing. The book is marketed as a depiction of female desire, but that's packaging IMO. When discussing it with my W (she introduced this topic, I read the book at her suggestion), she gets defensive and goes so far as to assert that maybe all female desire is, in fact, rooted in trauma. OK, sure, we all have disappointments in our formative experiences - but we're working toward healthy stuff, right?

On the other side, my W texted me this AM to suggest that we light a fire after the kids go to bed.

In short, I'm not feeling particularly safe, or on a clear path to recovery. CT is slow, and our provider is gentle to a fault, and my wife sends a many mixed messages.

I have my individual therapy tomorrow, hoping to look past the affair and into some of my own codependent behaviors and related precedents.

When I look at our relationship on the whole, it's a mix. There are things about my W that are great, but she's devalued me in many ways for many years and may never be fully accountable for what she's done in the affair, or before. And this is where the BPDish behavior kicks in.

Somehow the affair is my fault. Her old traumas are my fault (e.g., boyfriend disappointments from before we met). Money issues are my fault (she will not have a discussion about budget or limits without conflict). As noted, she keeps saying "it's ironic that I'm the bad guy" - even to the CT.

Not sure trust can be reestablished this way, and that's the rub. At least, at the moment.

[pursuingJoy]

Over the past 2+ weeks, my W has made comments that range from:
- I'm sorry (unprovoked)
- I never should have done this
- It wasn't about you, I tried to resist, I didn't do this / he (AP) pursued me
(this is where the blame shift begins)

to...
- It's not about the last ~10 weeks (affair), it's about what happened the last ~11 years (full on blame shift to me)
- I should have just stayed in my lane
- He (AP) doesn't want me anyway, it's over, I haven't heard from him
- He just wanted sex
- He said things I've never heard before, e.g., "you have a great body, you are so beautiful, etc." (obviously false statement / idealization)
- It was empowering (holding on)
- I'm so old, I have wrinkles, I need botox... 
- Do you think I look much older than my (younger) sisters?

That is a range. One of my favorite quotes about shame was written by CS Lewis. "Don’t you remember on earth there were things too hot to touch with you finger but you could drink them alright? Shame is like that. If you will attempt it—if you will drink the cup to the bottom—you will find it very nourishing; but try to do anything else with it and it scalds." Your wife is doing everything she possibly can to play with it.

In short, a lot of selfish behavior continues. Her apologies are generally reactive, and feel somewhat perfunctory.

You'll know a real apology when you see it. No use in arguing with them about this, though. The 'apology' is a way to brush people away, push them away from the shame.

She is responsive to my concerns and moods and checks in, but it usually seems like a burden to her... 

I don't like feeling like a burden. She's guarding this massive, sensitive ball. It defines everything for her right now. You're trying to touch it, maybe even take it away, and that sets off an alarm for her. It would leave her uncovered and vulnerable and that scares her.

Her general attitude is "we need to look forward and stop going over the past" which is not entirely wrong, but not particularly supportive.

"Leave the ball alone. Just ignore it. It's not a big deal, ok?" The only people who have ever said this to me were the people who abused me, or felt shame about the abuse. It highlights their discomfort, nothing else. And it's gaslighty.

It's been difficult to establish any agreement to break off the AP + AP's W, or at least contain exposure.  My W continues to socialize with her AP's W through her book group and through the mom's group via school, and often comments on the AP's W's views on the pandemic, school reopening, etc. etc.  - it's clearly a way to keep a window open, even as my W also comments on how her AP's W is not so smart. They are connected on FB and interact almost daily online or in person. Again, small town situation. I suggested that she should mute or take some action short of fully unfriending both the AP and APW, and was told that I am too controlling - "I'm not your property".  So, yeah...  boundaries.

Whew. I wish she was more open to putting some distance between them. I wouldn't like this either. Obviously cold turkey blocking isn't the best idea, but there are small things that could help. I wonder if this one is worth setting a boundary around. I so admire your patience, EyesUp, and it gives you a leg up on many of the people who come here in your position. I also wonder if it hasn't meant sacrificing more than you care to to accommodate your wife. I could be way off, so don't hesitate to tell me so - there's only so much you can get by writing.

I wonder if this is an area where you might be able to set a boundary. I would think this is an area where the marriage counselor can support a goal and follow through. Thoughts? once removed, any ideas?

I've started to consider things that I know are not in anyone's best interest, e.g., informing the AP's W about what's happened. I know that path leads to mutual assured destruction, I don't intend to actually take this action - but I clearly want more definitive action than my W is prepared to provide, so I obsess about options.

You are such a patient person so when you say you're starting to consider things that aren't in everyone's best interest, you have my full attention.

After promising me he wouldn't train women, my H said yes to a mutual female coworker and started working out with her in the gym at work. I tried to be patient and talk to him. It was almost like he didn't hear me at all, or decided he heard something different. This went on for months. He literally changed our conversations in his head. I finally picked up the phone, called her, and politely explained it. It was awkward. I didn't want to. But I was calm, and in my situation, it was the right thing to do.

I felt peace, I was calm and congenial. The girl was angry and asked me, "Who do you expect me to work out with now?" H, who was terrified of setting the boundary, was relieved, weirdly, and told me I was right. He said he felt uncomfortable telling her no so he hid behind me and he apologized. Very frustrating situation, in every way. Thankfully, none of it has been repeated.

This was minor. The pebble dropped into the pond and that was that. I'm not recommending you tell APwife. That would create a ripple in your small town that you can't take back.  I do believe there is a time and a place to speak up, and I wonder if we can't brainstorm a smaller step you can take that will protect what you value. The more I think about it, the more I think the counselor could play a critical role here.

And my W continues to reference "Three Women" by Taddeo as "life changing" - basically three women who have affairs to address past traumas, with minimal attention to consequences, but a lot of attention to sex...  Taddeo has written other essays about monogamy as boring, and celebrated affairs as the most thrilling thing. The book is marketed as a depiction of female desire, but that's packaging IMO. When discussing it with my W (she introduced this topic, I read the book at her suggestion), she gets defensive and goes so far as to assert that maybe all female desire is, in fact, rooted in trauma. OK, sure, we all have disappointments in our formative experiences - but we're working toward healthy stuff, right?

Her fascination with this book is interesting. Just want to let you know I think you're on the money with your assessment. Affairs damage trust. Asserting that all female desire is rooted in trauma... No. That's not ok.

I'll even concede that monogamy isn't the answer for some people, but the reality is, even if you want to take on new partners, the very baseline, the starting point, is a mutually respectful, open conversation with your partner about what you want. You make decisions together. So no, I absolutely disagree with Taddeo and I disagree with your wife. This is a pretty unhealthy view, imo. 

In short, I'm not feeling particularly safe, or on a clear path to recovery. CT is slow, and our provider is gentle to a fault, and my wife sends a many mixed messages.

I get not feeling safe. Our marriage counselor was soo careful with my H. He can actually face hard truths and prefers directness, so her approach didn't always work in our favor. She explained to me 1:1 that she was concerned he was a flight risk and would shut her out, she was earning his trust. I kind of agreed, but also not. They're trained to do this work, so I guess we are better off trusting them, but also, they're just human, and sometimes they miss things. Marriage counseling can be really tough.

I have my individual therapy tomorrow, hoping to look past the affair and into some of my own codependent behaviors and related precedents.

Let us know how this goes. We all need support. I'm so glad you're taking this step.

When I look at our relationship on the whole, it's a mix. There are things about my W that are great, but she's devalued me in many ways for many years and may never be fully accountable for what she's done in the affair, or before. And this is where the BPDish behavior kicks in.

Are there things that happened in that past that are coming up for you?

Somehow the affair is my fault. Her old traumas are my fault (e.g., boyfriend disappointments from before we met). Money issues are my fault (she will not have a discussion about budget or limits without conflict). As noted, she keeps saying "it's ironic that I'm the bad guy" - even to the CT.

Be a mirror, not a sponge. These things are not your responsibility. Reflect them back on her, even if you're only doing it internally. These are not yours to carry. 

Not sure trust can be reestablished this way, and that's the rub. At least, at the moment.

You're in this weird in-between space - answers, relief, even movement in any direction would be nice. It will be this way for a little while. Process, grieve your losses, whatever they may be, and take care of yourself physically and emotionally. Better days are ahead, EyesUp. 

[once removed]

- I'm sorry (unprovoked)
- I never should have done this
- It wasn't about you, I tried to resist, I didn't do this / he (AP) pursued me
(this is where the blame shift begins)

to...
- It's not about the last ~10 weeks (affair), it's about what happened the last ~11 years (full on blame shift to me)
- I should have just stayed in my lane
- He (AP) doesn't want me anyway, it's over, I haven't heard from him
- He just wanted sex
- He said things I've never heard before, e.g., "you have a great body, you are so beautiful, etc." (obviously false statement / idealization)
- It was empowering (holding on)
- I'm so old, I have wrinkles, I need botox...
- Do you think I look much older than my (younger) sisters?

there is more than likely a grain of truth to all of these things.

remember that i mentioned your wife would be all over the place.

shes really running the gamut: there is shame and remorse. there is an effort, that stops short, at ownership. theres major insecurity. and there is also her version of what she feels was missing from the marriage.

shes trying to explain to herself, and to you. shes also trying to apologize, long before she really recognizes the full weight of her actions.

shes trying to come to terms with it. shes a long ways off.

Her apologies are generally reactive, and feel somewhat perfunctory. She is responsive to my concerns and moods and checks in, but it usually seems like a burden to her...  Her general attitude is "we need to look forward and stop going over the past" which is not entirely wrong, but not particularly supportive.

i dont think that a person who was (is) in a low enough place to put her family at risk, and hasnt come to terms with the destruction shes done is in much of a place to support you. she is likely far more preoccupied with fear of you judging her, which is selfish, to be sure.

the progress you are going to see, if there is going to be any, involves teeny tiny baby steps. healing has only barely begun, and it could get worse before it gets better.

you are going to have resentments...deep ones. you are going to need strong, consistent support, that she not only may not be able to provide, but may be, for a while at least, prone to rubbing salt in the wound. shes going to say and do a lot of the wrong things. shes saying a lot of the classic things that affair partners say, like "we shouldnt dwell on the past", or "i cant keep apologizing". i have never had an affair myself, but generally, both parties have expectations of the other that are difficult for any human to fulfill.

expect this. recovery, if possible, is a very long game. it can benefit from positive triangulation.

[EyesUp]

@pursuingjoy and @once removed - thank you both.

Your comments are truly helpful.

I hope you don't mind if I don't respond to every point inline - however I've read them all 3+ times.

@pursuingjoy - I appreciate the literary references / quotes.  I started reading CS Lewis to our 9yo over the summer, we made it up to Prince Caspian and had to take a break. 

You are 100% correct about my W's defensiveness. She's not ready to own her mistake, and the times when I've pushed are when she's been most adversarial.  This gets right to the underlying dynamics that got us here - she struggles with her own flaws and mistakes, and has grown increasingly resistant to any discussion that treads on accountability in recent years.  In limited situations, she can behave like an adult and agree to adjust or reboot, but most of the time it's 100% deflection or worse.

@once removed - Point taken re: readiness to engage meaningfully in terms of self-reflection or acknowledgement to me.  She's demonstrating it very clearly.

The latest is:  She invited the AP's W over to our house for a playdate, and informed me after the fact. I know this because I took a look at her text messages. She flipped the script and said that the invitation to get together was from the AP's W at school dropoff, and she merely followed up, and that the best thing for all of us is to "normalize" the situation. She is not aware that I'm snooping, and I feel somewhat bad about doing this but it's a protective measure. 

I've been trying to minimize constant discussion and give her space, but I feel that this type of ongoing behavior crosses a line and so I attempted to address it. Before she had a chance to confirm or announce plans, I proposed my own agenda for the weekend via email. She was slow to respond, so I broached it when she got home and she fessed up "we might have a play date, you won't like the details..."  I explained why this doesn't seem right to me - and she agreed not to invite the APW again - but she declined to cancel, instead insisting that we wait for the APW's to respond.

I was very direct and said this situation is messed up, it feels like she's deliberately keeping a door open. She doesn't respond well to this. No surprise.

I also peeked at her FB messenger activity on her computer. Sure enough, she's still in touch with the AP.  She sends him links to home gym equipment for sale in the FB marketplace. I think it's exactly what it appears to be - a means to keep a window open, let him know that she's thinking of him. The point is: She's resisted my requests to formally end contact, and also denied that they are in touch. They both delete the messages, so what I see is very hit or miss.

To address this, I have broached the topic of going 100% open honesty and giving each other complete access to our phones any time. Admittedly I'm trying to level the playing field. She both accepts this, and also expresses a lot of irritation. Lips say "ok" while body language and attitude says "no" - so while in theory she has accepted the proposal, my sense is that it's still a boundary for her. Some of her objections include "what if you see a text from a friend with personal info" to which I say "if our relationship is the #1 priority, you'll need to worry about us before friends, and trust me to do the right thing about things that don't concern me" - another one is "why spend time reviewing past activity?" to which I say "we can both delete whatever we want - the point is to be open going forward" - she's clearly not ready yet.

Limerance, or something else, something worse? I know you cannot say. I know that if I push too hard, that I'm backing her into a corner. So far I have avoided confrontation.

In the meantime, we are leaving the kids at grandma's for a night this weekend.

She's promised me that she's done, it's over.  She's also said I'm acting bi-polar, romantic one minute and angry the next. She might be right!

And she's dragging feet re: getting her own 1:1 therapy.

Again, thanks for your comments and questions. Onward.

[Brooklyn1974]

She's also said I'm acting bi-polar, romantic one minute and angry the next. She might be right!

That is sort of a deflection but my wife says the same to me.  She is in contact with her ex-bf and renting from him.  I do find myself at times wanting to work on things with my wife and almost be 'too sweet' then at times my mind goes back to her cheating and her now in contact with her ex and the reaction to my thoughts make me miserable.

I tried to explain this to my wife, that this situation is not normal and I feel I am being betrayed however she twists what I am feeling to suit her pursuit of whatever it may be.

Would this not be a limitation/boundary you would want to set into place?  As my situation drags on longer the feeling of wanting to end the marriage gets more real.  Take a step back from all of this and look at the bigger picture.  Also do you really want to play detective your whole life?  That has to be mentally and emotionally exhausting.