Extinction bursts, new levels

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I need a practical advice on how to proceed. Undiagnosed husband is exhibiting symptoms of bpd/npd with bipolar 2 comorbid. His punishing tendencies of npd are congruent with mania and mixed episodes. On the past o was chasing after him, crying and begging for forgiveness (just remembering it puts in in a cold sweat, what for? For the rain and shine?), massaging his feet, pleading to come back, which had some mediating effect, changing his mood and returning him to base line. It came at the cost of my well being and sanity, taking the effort and focus off of the children and myself on to the mood swinging person. I stopped doing that. When he leaves, which now looks like 70% of the time, I allow him to go. I don’t chase or beg. I try and focus on getting sleep so I can function the next day. During mania he has difficulty sleeping. When that passes, he goes into depressive state and sleeps a lot. He is currently splitting and refuses to speak to me, while retreating to the separate sleeping area in the basement. When I ask him why do you sleep separately, he replies that he doesn’t want to sleep with me, be with me, nor does he find me sexually attractive. Yesterday while grocery shopping I got the following messages via text:
“Not a single filth is allowed to drive the cars
B$6,$es, you leave filth
A bottles and paper garbage still there
Cars are off limits
Bi$&@es
When I get home I am going to f$& you all up
Bi$&@es
Cars are off limits
Please return the car keys”
These messages frightened me, as I got messages from my daughter simultaneously that he was raging. I told her to stay away from him and take the dogs, in tears of him hurting them. These messages came because he thought that the car was not clean enough, my teenager who shared the vehicle sometimes leaves mess. When I came home I met him taking off with the vehicle, effectively leaving me without any means of transport. I quietly handed over my key. My daughter surrendered her key earlier. His car is now sitting in the garage while he is commuting using the car that is supposed to be mine. He also demanded to withdraw a large amount of money to purchase crypto currency which I have no access to. He keeps his virtual wallet on him at all times, threatening to leave with it if anyone disobeys him. I told him I will not do that, without some proof of him putting it back on the account. He signed a paper  stating that he will repay the full amount of the withdrawal back to the mutual like of credit, I took a picture of him holding the Promissory note, sent it to my email and close friends for safe keeping. He is forbidding me to buy anything, restricting the necessities and demanding I stop spending, while hoarding access to huge financial savings. He does not communicate. Our sex life is rare and sporadic. He is refusing any contact with the rest of the world. His only engagement is risky investments and trading of crypto currencies and gym. He starts “crazy” conversations with my younger teenager of how people make money reselling drugs (explain profit margin), and no, he doesn’t engage in drug trade. Which bids the question, in the world where the parent should teach right from wrong, food from bad, how can a parent glamorize drug trafficking to a teen? I stopped this conversation, but the dynamics we have at home are toxic to say the least. He is playing “real, down to earth, kind of guy who is more of a friend” and I am the disciplinarian nagging parent” I hate the role I was forced into. There is no Rhyme or reason to his actions. His delusions of the world order coming to the end, is congruent with the mood disorder and bipolar. He alternates between aggression, irritation and debilitating depression. He has no insight to his disorder instead telling me that I should get help for myself, since I am struggling with him. He severely limited my financial access, denying simple pleasures such as movies and eating out. I was yelled at for seeking veterinary help for the sick pet last week. When I plead to re-home the dog that he is clearly unable to care for, his reply was” kill it, or put it down, I will not allow you to re-home him”. He put a gun under our family bed mattress. It is not loaded, the ammo is beside it. He says he is prepared for the intruders. His only communication with me, my parents is how bad the economy is, and how he will rejoice once US will be in the state of chaos, with people killing each other over a loaf of bread. I have a support group on Tues and Wed next week. One for bipolar loved ones and the other one is for Coda. I am asking myself, what am I still doing with this mentally ill person who is refusing all help. I am afraid for unsupervised access to the children. I’m afraid he will hurt them to get back at me. I’m afraid that at some point he will hurt me. This “punishing” is congruent with mania in bipolar, where the person wants you to show the emotions that they are feeling. I’m exhausted, as there are no distractions of crazy any longer. No parties to attend (he is not welcome with our former friends who witnessed the erratic behaviour), no travel (due to COVID and him not wanting to spend the money), no idealization if me (no gifts, on Restaurants and No efforts to apologize), almost no sex, absolutely zero emotional intimacy, attention or support, no acts of service or actual care for the children. I also don’t engage with him, when he is cussing, swearing or berating me. He calls me and the kids “useless, money sucking leaches, that he is tired of and wants to get rid of”.

[snowglobe]

I need a practical advice on how to proceed. Undiagnosed husband is exhibiting symptoms of bpd/npd with bipolar 2 comorbid. His punishing tendencies of npd are congruent with mania and mixed episodes. On the past o was chasing after him, crying and begging for forgiveness (just remembering it puts in in a cold sweat, what for? For the rain and shine?), massaging his feet, pleading to come back, which had some mediating effect, changing his mood and returning him to base line. It came at the cost of my well being and sanity, taking the effort and focus off of the children and myself on to the mood swinging person. I stopped doing that. When he leaves, which now looks like 70% of the time, I allow him to go. I don’t chase or beg. I try and focus on getting sleep so I can function the next day. During mania he has difficulty sleeping. When that passes, he goes into depressive state and sleeps a lot. He is currently splitting and refuses to speak to me, while retreating to the separate sleeping area in the basement. When I ask him why do you sleep separately, he replies that he doesn’t want to sleep with me, be with me, nor does he find me sexually attractive. Yesterday while grocery shopping I got the following messages via text:
“Not a single filth is allowed to drive the cars
B$6,$es, you leave filth
A bottles and paper garbage still there
Cars are off limits
Bi$&@es
When I get home I am going to f$& you all up
Bi$&@es
Cars are off limits
Please return the car keys”
These messages frightened me, as I got messages from my daughter simultaneously that he was raging. I told her to stay away from him and take the dogs, in tears of him hurting them. These messages came because he thought that the car was not clean enough, my teenager who shared the vehicle sometimes leaves mess. When I came home I met him taking off with the vehicle, effectively leaving me without any means of transport. I quietly handed over my key. My daughter surrendered her key earlier. His car is now sitting in the garage while he is commuting using the car that is supposed to be mine. He also demanded to withdraw a large amount of money to purchase crypto currency which I have no access to. He keeps his virtual wallet on him at all times, threatening to leave with it if anyone disobeys him. I told him I will not do that, without some proof of him putting it back on the account. He signed a paper  stating that he will repay the full amount of the withdrawal back to the mutual like of credit, I took a picture of him holding the Promissory note, sent it to my email and close friends for safe keeping. He is forbidding me to buy anything, restricting the necessities and demanding I stop spending, while hoarding access to huge financial savings. He does not communicate. Our sex life is rare and sporadic. He is refusing any contact with the rest of the world. His only engagement is risky investments and trading of crypto currencies and gym. He starts “crazy” conversations with my younger teenager of how people make money reselling drugs (explain profit margin), and no, he doesn’t engage in drug trade. Which bids the question, in the world where the parent should teach right from wrong, food from bad, how can a parent glamorize drug trafficking to a teen? I stopped this conversation, but the dynamics we have at home are toxic to say the least. He is playing “real, down to earth, kind of guy who is more of a friend” and I am the disciplinarian nagging parent” I hate the role I was forced into. There is no Rhyme or reason to his actions. His delusions of the world order coming to the end, is congruent with the mood disorder and bipolar. He alternates between aggression, irritation and debilitating depression. He has no insight to his disorder instead telling me that I should get help for myself, since I am struggling with him. He severely limited my financial access, denying simple pleasures such as movies and eating out. I was yelled at for seeking veterinary help for the sick pet last week. When I plead to re-home the dog that he is clearly unable to care for, his reply was” kill it, or put it down, I will not allow you to re-home him”. He put a gun under our family bed mattress. It is not loaded, the ammo is beside it. He says he is prepared for the intruders. His only communication with me, my parents is how bad the economy is, and how he will rejoice once US will be in the state of chaos, with people killing each other over a loaf of bread. I have a support group on Tues and Wed next week. One for bipolar loved ones and the other one is for Coda. I am asking myself, what am I still doing with this mentally ill person who is refusing all help. I am afraid for unsupervised access to the children. I’m afraid he will hurt them to get back at me. I’m afraid that at some point he will hurt me. This “punishing” is congruent with mania in bipolar, where the person wants you to show the emotions that they are feeling. I’m exhausted, as there are no distractions of crazy any longer. No parties to attend (he is not welcome with our former friends who witnessed the erratic behaviour), no travel (due to COVID and him not wanting to spend the money), no idealization if me (no gifts, on Restaurants and No efforts to apologize), almost no sex, absolutely zero emotional intimacy, attention or support, no acts of service or actual care for the children. I also don’t engage with him, when he is cussing, swearing or berating me. He calls me and the kids “useless, money sucking leaches, that he is tired of and wants to get rid of”.

[Cat Familiar]

I don’t know where to start when you ask for advice about how to proceed.

It seems you obey his requests, such as surrendering the car keys.

And apparently you would still like for him to sleep with you and have sex.

It’s hard to answer you about practical advice when it’s not clear what exactly you want.

[snowglobe]

I don’t know where to start when you ask for advice about how to proceed.

It seems you obey his requests, such as surrendering the car keys.

And apparently you would still like for him to sleep with you and have sex.

It’s hard to answer you about practical advice when it’s not clear what exactly you want.

I want to get him into treatment, I want him to stop abusing me, I want to keep my family intact, I want to experience intimacy and satisfaction within these relationships, I want him to adhere to medication regiment, I want to show him how badly he hurt me and the kids, I want to have the tools to survive while trying to make all of the above reality.

[babyducks]

I need a practical advice on how to proceed.

sure snowglobe ...  I'll take a shot.

• get a job, any job... so that you have your own money in your own bank account
• talk with a lawyer about joint assets.. how to protect them... how to protect you from future financial damage (if it happens)

• work your own therapy, not his

• deal with the reality in front of you now... not what you wish would happen
• take concrete steps to provide for your own security and stability. (emotional and financial)

When I ask him why do you sleep separately, he replies that he doesn’t want to sleep with me, be with me, nor does he find me sexually attractive.

what do you think he means when he says this?   do you think he is kidding?   do you think you can convince him otherwise?

I quietly handed over my key.

why?  why did you hand over the key?

 He put a gun under our family bed mattress. It is not loaded, the ammo is beside it.

how do you feel about sleeping in a bed that has a gun under it?   do you think this is safe?   wise?   is it what you want?

I have a support group on Tues and Wed next week. One for bipolar loved ones and the other one is for Coda.

how many meetings have you been too so far?   are these your first?

He has no insight to his disorder instead telling me that I should get help for myself, since I am struggling with him.

what did you expect him to say?    why do you think this would be any different?

I want to get him into treatment,

you have a undergrad degree in the field of psychology right?  where have you ever read that it is possible to coax, coerce, force or motivate someone into treatment?   when has this ever been suggested by anyone as a reasonable plan?  

I want him to stop abusing me,

why do you tolerate him abusing you?    is this just like your father?    verbal and financial abuse and you proving you are worthy of love?

I want to keep my family intact,

with some one who abuses you and your children?   you wrote your first post here on this website July 16, 2017  what is significantly different since that first post three years ago?    how strong is your denial?

I want to experience intimacy and satisfaction within these relationships,

is your husband emotionally equipped to do that?  

I want him to adhere to medication regiment,

my Ex was diagnosed Bipolar I comorbid with a Personality Disorder most likely BPD.   She was a rapid cycler.    The medication that was most effective for slowing down the frequency of her mania was too harsh for her kidneys to tolerate and had to be stopped.   The second medication kept her bouts of mania ~down~ to 4 or 5 times a year.    medication is not a magic bullet.  it is just a different set of problems.

I want to show him how badly he hurt me and the kids,

why?    what does this get you?  

I want to have the tools to survive while trying to make all of the above reality.

that's really up to you snowglobe... are you willing to let go of the thinking that is not helping you?  

[Notwendy]

Snowglobe, I feel for your situation but this is magical thinking.

trying to make all of the above reality.

You do not have the power to make your H a different person, to make him into the man you wish he would be and for him to give you what you want.

We have no such powers. Not a single one of us.

As long as you don't believe this, and keep believing there is some way, some tool, some power somewhere that will enable you to do this, you will keep trying.

Radical acceptance means - accepting the things you can not change. Knowing what you can change and what you can not change is the wisdom we seek.

We've been telling you this all along. You can not change him. You can only change yourself.

We are here to support you and are glad you are posting. This is a big step- to realize that your H isn't the path to getting what you want. You are. And it may be a solo journey. It is nice to have someone who loves you, but you can start by loving yourself, and believing you are worthy of not being treated poorly.

Truly understanding that you are powerless to change another person isn't easy. It comes with grief for the loss of that ideal person. But your H is who he is, and he's acting like who he is.

[RestlessWanderer]

Hi snow globe, it sounds like you are in a very tough and draining situation to say the least.
As someone who has also hoped my SO would realize what they are doing and the impact that it has on me I can empathize with those desires.
However it is hard enough to bring about changes within ourselves. We can learn the tools and techniques and work on putting them into practice. But these are only ways that we can change our own thoughts and behaviors, and they are not easy.
We all deserve to feel safe, first and foremost. I suggest you think about your relationship in that context. That will help you find what direction to go.
I am working through that process myself. I have realized that even though I don’t feel in immediate danger, I do live practically every moment wondering if my SO is going to get angry from one minute to the next. I have come to see that when angry she is capable of abuse, be it verbal, psychological, or physical. It’s important not to minimize any of those and see that abuse is abuse and it has no place in a healthy relationship. Realizing this has given me clarity. It has helped me to not be blinded by my desire for things to get better or to be distracted by tokens of affection. Now I am trying to figure out what to do.

I don’t have any answers for you, as I am struggling to find answers for myself. I am not in a position to judge your choices. I do hope that you can assess your safety and use that to help you figure out what you need to do.
RW

[Notwendy]

None of us can fully know or judge another person's choices, so I hope you understand that. Every relationship is different and has different considerations. Children and financial survival are pressing reasons.

Also, no relationship is entirely all bad just like few people are entirely all bad- and so there are likely some qualities in your H you see as positives.

But when making choices, we need to consider the entire picture, the whole of it.

The "tools" are for us, not the other person. They don't have the power to change another person.

It really comes down to boundaries. BPD is a spectrum. In some situations a relationship can improve when one person works on their side of the drama. This is different from changing the other person. It's making personal changes to reduce their side of the drama.

But sometimes the behaviors are more severe- physical abuse, addiction, destruction of property- not all pw BPD have these behaviors. Some do, but not all. We all have to make our own decisions considering all the factors in a relationship. There may be some similar patterns, but each is different.

[formflier]

When I get home I am going to f$& you all up
 

Here is my advice on how to proceed.

Call your L's and schedule a meeting.  Have them help you show this to the authorities, preferably the ones that were involved in the previous physical assaults.

Also ask them for advice and help with an order of protection.

My understanding is there are no people in the house he has not assaulted.  Is my recollection accurate?

You now have explicit threats.  My guess is you wouldn't have to look to far in your texts and emails to find others.

I certainly believe and I suspect most other people around her believe these threats and assaults will continue until you choose a different path and stop voluntarily obeying his abusive whims and demands, such as handing over the car key.

It appears to me you have made a decision to voluntarily be a prisoner, along with your children, to his untreated mental illness.

Things really are in your court.

Best,

FF

[snowglobe]

sure snowglobe ...  I'll take a shot.

• get a job, any job... so that you have your own money in your own bank account
• talk with a lawyer about joint assets.. how to protect them... how to protect you from future financial damage (if it happens)

• work your own therapy, not his

• deal with the reality in front of you now... not what you wish would happen
• take concrete steps to provide for your own security and stability. (emotional and financial)

what do you think he means when he says this?   do you think he is kidding?   do you think you can convince him otherwise?


why?  why did you hand over the key?

how do you feel about sleeping in a bed that has a gun under it?   do you think this is safe?   wise?   is it what you want?

how many meetings have you been too so far?   are these your first?

what did you expect him to say?    why do you think this would be any different?

you have a undergrad degree in the field of psychology right?  where have you ever read that it is possible to coax, coerce, force or motivate someone into treatment?   when has this ever been suggested by anyone as a reasonable plan?  

why do you tolerate him abusing you?    is this just like your father?    verbal and financial abuse and you proving you are worthy of love?

with some one who abuses you and your children?   you wrote your first post here on this website July 16, 2017  what is significantly different since that first post three years ago?    how strong is your denial?

is your husband emotionally equipped to do that?  

my Ex was diagnosed Bipolar I comorbid with a Personality Disorder most likely BPD.   She was a rapid cycler.    The medication that was most effective for slowing down the frequency of her mania was too harsh for her kidneys to tolerate and had to be stopped.   The second medication kept her bouts of mania ~down~ to 4 or 5 times a year.    medication is not a magic bullet.  it is just a different set of problems.

why?    what does this get you?  

that's really up to you snowglobe... are you willing to let go of the thinking that is not helping you?  

Hi Ducks, thank you for being here and trying to help me sort this out. I’m actually actively applying to positions, some of them I’m qualified for. I will keep on calling and trying to start full time this fall. Financial independence will remove “get a job” narrative. It usually goes “go get a job and start paying for it... go get a job at McDonalds or cleaning lady (all the while knowing I have a bigger potential and education, is it devaluing?”. It will also create an opportunity to get out of the house, socialize with people and go about my day without focusing on him.
I’m afraid of going to the lawyer, I’m concerned it will change my mindset from fighting for the family to fighting to get out of the marriage.
I’m still waiting for my turn for DBT therapy, it should be coming up shortly. I can’t focus on his recovery, I need to help myself.
The reality at times is too much to bare. Last night he frightened my mother when he came in and started yelling at me for leaving the dog out, who was distracting him from gardening. He was yelling, and every time I tried to leave the room he would say “I’m not finished yet, wait” and go for another circular shouting argument. My mom got in physically between us, and I was able to exit with the dog. She came in to check up on me and told me she is concerned.
You mentioned your ex also had bipolar. There isn’t a slightest doubt that so does my undiagnosed husband, I keep his mood journal and it swings like pendulum through rapid cycling. He hasn’t been at the baseline for several years now for longer then 48 hrs. He is also bipolar 2, since hypomania and only delusions ( I say only with a chuckle, he could have had hallucinations and be told to kill me, so everything is in perspective). There is not a shred of stability left, he alternates between manic grandiosity, which I confused for npd, it is not, it’s one of the signs of mixed episode or mania. To withdrawing and having debilitating depressive symptoms.
When he rejects me physically I created a narrative that it is not him, but his disorder. I try to separate a person from bipolar which causes him to behave the way he does. He has a poor insight to his actions, therefore I should not hold him liable for what he does during the crisis.
I handed over the key because I wanted to avoid being yelled at, show him “go f yourself, I can get by without your stupid car”, two can play this game, you want to “punish me?” Go choke in your hatred, I won’t give you the fight for the keys.
I don’t know what to think about the gun under the bed, I’m afraid it won’t end well.
The meetings will be my first, I’m hopeful to relieve some tension and get a fresh perspective from the support group, as well as the sponsor.

[formflier]

I’m afraid of going to the lawyer, I’m concerned it will change my mindset from fighting for the family to fighting to get out of the marriage.
 
I don’t know what to think about the gun under the bed, I’m afraid it won’t end well.
 

Which fear is likely to cause you to take action to change the status quo?

The history of assaults and the addition of a gun makes for an incredibly dangerous situation. 

Best,

FF

[babyducks]

snowglobe:

back in May you wrote this to us:

I spoke to the clinical psychologist today, as a reporter, I’m going to try and recall what I learnt from today’s session. Undiagnosed husband is likely npd (need for punishment, low self esteem, need for constant validating and flattery, sense of grandiosity and invisibility, attributing traits or achievements that aren’t his to begin with). Schizotypal personality disorder (lack of personal self care, social withdrawal, ideation and delusions of annihilation of the human race) and Bipolar disorder... there are some! Traits of bpd, but it’s more indicative of the comorbid mix. Psychologist told me that he has very poor insight (he spoke to undiagnosed husband on multiple occasions, that were related to family and kids) and therefor poor prognosis. He basically told me that I’m wasting my time and I should take the children and separate. The only chance, according to P that we have of changing this is if he will be forced to work out his issues without me being around.

the clinical psychologist told you months ago that the prognosis for your husband in the current situation is poor.   at the time you seemed to be making progress accepting the reality in front of you.   now it seems you have retreated back into the defense mechanism of denial.    You want to "get him into treatment".    You want him on a "medication regime".    He refuses to even consider that and you have reported to us dozen and dozen of times that he doesn't believe he has any issues.     

I matched him with dependent personality disorder and generalized anxiety disorder making this union, in its own way highly effective. He disregulated, yet I always stayed because of the fear. I’m still afraid. My cognition is running on a separate track from my emotional state. I am still codependent and hold out hope for him to turn around.

where are you with this ?   are you capable of embracing the idea that your dependency is twisting your thinking into non productive approaches?    I know this is hard thing to wrestle with.     it very much seems that over and over again you walk right up to the line of dealing with your codependent traits and then back away.    what could help you walk right into the face of this?

It bothers me greatly, my childhood fears of being rejected by distorted parents come flooding back. They too punished each other with leaving the marital bed, in fact I don’t remember them sleeping soundly and without the cloud of anger towards each other. When undiagnosed husband leaves me, he doesn’t do it peacefully. It’s always served as “you disgust me, because you are disgusting, I find it unbearable to sleep next to such despicable human being”. Which I understand validates the inner monologue that unless others like me, I’m unlovable and not worthy of being cared for.

You are lovable and you are worthy of being cared for.    and your husband is not doing that.    you have held on for years doing the same thing over and over regardless of the messages you receive and it has gotten you pretty much the same results.    what would it take for you to be done?   what would it take for you to honestly face what is going on around you? 

I’m actually actively applying to positions, some of them I’m qualified for. I will keep on calling and trying to start full time this fall. Financial independence will remove “get a job” narrative.

good that you are looking for work.   the first job you get after being out of the job market will not be "the perfect" job.   it will be about building a positive work history.  it will get you out of the house and amongst functioning adults.   how are the replies going?

I’m afraid of going to the lawyer, I’m concerned it will change my mindset from fighting for the family to fighting to get out of the marriage.

going to a lawyer does not mean you are getting a divorce.   it means you are gathering information with which to educate yourself.    it doesn't mean you are not fighting for your family.. it means you are looking for different/more tools with which to productively fight.   the way you have fought for the last three years has gotten you very little in terms of a healthy family.   it is time to change your tactics.

I’m still waiting for my turn for DBT therapy, it should be coming up shortly. I can’t focus on his recovery, I need to help myself.

how do you see the DBT therapy helping with your dependent disorder?

Last night he frightened my mother ../../.. My mom got in physically between us, ../../.. She came in to check up on me and told me she is concerned.

Your mother is frightened and concerned.  I find myself in agreement with her.  You appear to tolerate any behavior as long as your husband and you stay together.  that is frightening because behavior like this does not stay static.   it doesn't stay the same...its either getting worse or its getting better.   your family is getting worse.   

I keep his mood journal

why is it your job to keep his mood journal?  what possible good can come from this?

There is not a shred of stability left,

I don’t know what to think about the gun under the bed, I’m afraid it won’t end well.

there isn't a shred of stability left but you don't know what to think about the gun under the bed?   can we look at this again?   the clinical psychologist believes he has serious untreated mental illness which impact his judgement.    you believe he is experiencing manic periods but you aren't sure if it is a good idea for him to have a fire arm around the family?

When he rejects me physically I created a narrative that it is not him, but his disorder. I try to separate a person from bipolar which causes him to behave the way he does. He has a poor insight to his actions, therefore I should not hold him liable for what he does during the crisis.

how is this narrative helping you ?  or is it another way to avoid facing the unpleasant truths?     he and his bipolar are not separate.  lets hope it never happens but if he takes the gun and kills the puppy... which he has mentioned... are you going to say he isn't liable for that?

I handed over the key because I wanted to avoid being yelled at, show him “go f yourself, I can get by without your stupid car”,

we have talked about a safety plan for you in the past.   and that included having a way to exit with the children if it became necessary.    how are you going to exit in a crisis now?    how do you plan on getting the car back?

The meetings will be my first, I’m hopeful to relieve some tension and get a fresh perspective from the support group, as well as the sponsor.

I hope you do make it to these meetings.   you've mentioned going before but never seem to make it.     I hope you take steps to help yourself and your children.   actual concrete steps.     I hope you can take on board what's been suggested to you...

'ducks

[Waddams]

The text you quoted, along with demands for turning over keys, and his keeping a gun handy would be enough in my area to get an Ex-Parte restraining order approved and him removed from the home. Knowing what his reaction would likely be after that, it'd likely be easy to get it approved for a long time.

He treats you like he does because he's allowed to. It's as simple as that. You set boundaries that he can't do that, and set consequences for when he does it again, and he MIGHT stop at some point and have the thought maybe he screwed up. But as long as you continue to give in to his control and rage and what not, nothing will change. It will only get worse.

I know you don't want to, and very likely won't accept this, but you don't need couples counseling or message board advice on how to get him to stop doing this stuff. That's codependent "I can fix it if he just does this or if I just do that" bargaining type thinking. What you need is a lawyer and DV advocate, and the will to start acting in a manner to protect yourself from his abuse of you and your kids.

[Cat Familiar]

Snowglobe,
You have a lot of unacknowledged grief about your husband. When you got together with him years ago, you believed this would be the start of a fairytale romance that would last the rest of your life.

Things began to change and he was no longer the handsome prince you believed you’d married. He began saying abusive things to you, behaving in ways that frightened you, became irresponsible with financial decisions, physically assaulted not only you, but also your daughter.

You tried to support him, leaving the children behind in your parents’ care, while you followed him pursuing his business dealings. Occasionally you would be rewarded with trips and jewelry when he’d made a windfall. Other times he wouldn’t let you have the money for family necessities, even food and medical care.

You’ve backed away from being his servant, but you still want him to be the man you fell in love with, despite years of evidence that he only looks out for his own wants and needs.

Even your family therapist has concluded that he’s a very mentally ill individual with little hope of improvement, yet you still hope that he can be medicated into the man of your dreams.

As sad as it is, perhaps it’s time to come to terms with what you’ve been avoiding. Your husband is mentally ill. He doesn’t think he is. And he’s not going to change. As you’ve observed, he’s getting worse.

Perhaps it’s time to pay attention to your own needs and those of your children. Your daughter will soon leave for college, so it will only be you and your son at some point.

You’ve been afraid he will leave you penniless, but there are laws in place to protect you. And it’s obvious that you are in an extremely vulnerable place, living with a mentally ill man who threatens you and the children, who owns a gun.

There’s a lot to grieve about setting aside your hopes and dreams for the perfect relationship that you could have had with him. But isn’t it time to finally face the truth?

With compassion,
Cat

[love4meNOTu]

Hi snowglobe,

It's been hard to read your posts. I was married to a narcissist for 16 months, and it has taken me 7 years to heal.

Like you, I searched for answers everywhere, wanted direct and to the matter at hand advice and begged God will to save me, fix him, etc. I really wanted that miracle. 

When you've done hoping for that miracle we will be here waiting to guide you in those next steps. I absolutely do have empathy for you, always have, but I think you already have the answers you need to make a decision, you've had them for some time.

I'm hoping you have the courage to save yourself, your children and your dogs. 

Relationships should replenish you, make you feel safe. Not drain you of every ounce of energy you have.

My best to you snowglobe.

[snowglobe]

Hello everyone,
I tried to reply several times, but each time My undiagnosed husband would walk in. I did not get the time to finish. I thank each and one of you for writing to me, your compassion and understanding helps me not to plunge into the dark abyss of depression. My loved ones are burn out and can’t support me. My closest friends and confidants are outraged, and confused as to why I still have not done anything. Even my parents stopped begging me to stay. They are only worried about unsupervised access to the children. To many of you- yes, I cognitively process the fact that he is unwell and perhaps unstable and dangerous. Yet, I’m holding on to the idea that he will 1. Coke out and come to senses at some point as he did in the past. It didn’t last a long time, yet that was my window of opportunity to show him the impact and the damage he created. 2. I will get a miraculous advice from the professional as to how to get him the help he needs.
There was an interesting dynamic with the car keys, once he took it from me, he gave it to my mother, who was driving the children to extracurricular activities. The following day he asked me to pick something up from the store and provided the keys back. I’m in the full possession of the car once again. So what gives? Why does he take it away and threaten me one day then turn around and give it back the next one?

[love4meNOTu]

I believe that is an intermittent reinforcement technique, i.e. "Breadcrumbs".

That's how people stay hooked on playing slot machines. Every once in a while the machine pays out a few pennies.

The question here is are you willing to accept those crumbs in lieu of a real affection and respect?

It's also a good time to make copies of the car keys for your emergency bag.

[snowglobe]

One of the things that concerns me regarding my physical well being is inability to sleep. The sleeping arrangements that relate to my undiagnosed husband create great state of chaos and confusion, which adds to the symptoms of the burn out. He leaves the marital bed sighting “I do not want to be near you, around you, with you, sleep next to you” and I am left alone with the empty space my husband used to occupy. After some time he occasionally comes back. Sometimes just to catch up on the sleep, some times for sex, sometimes I have no idea why. He leaves just as abruptly as he comes back, which feels like a sucker punch. I doubt everything, my reality, my persecution, my actions, my contribution for him not to want to be with me. Occasionally I fall asleep in front of the tv in the family room. He then proceeds to go to sleep in the family bedroom. Which contributes to me feeling like a Leper, like I’m some disgusting creature that is not worthy of love or intimacy. This dance of “either you or me take the family bed” creates complete disarray when it comes to sleep. When I fall asleep alone in the bedroom I cry myself to sleep. When I fall asleep elsewhere and he takes the bedroom it feels painful and rejecting in the light of day. My sleep is shallow, I wake up untested and often groggy, tired. I have frequent nightmares as vivid dreams of negative context. I try and calm myself down, but this cognitive dissonance is driving me mad. On one hand he chooses not to sleep with me, leave the family bed, on the other hand there has to be a reason why I am being treated this way. Perhaps I’m aging, ugly, unattractive, unworthy of his attention. My youngest asked me to sleep with him last night as he was scared after watching some horror movie, I was tossing and turning, trying to find my comfort. I feel homeless and ungrounded. Sleeping alone in our bed  pains me, sleeping alone on the couch and other rooms feels strange, unhinged. I don’t even know what thought process to apply.

[Cat Familiar]

Your sleep difficulties likely relate to the chronic anxiety you must be feeling due to your husband's unpredictability.

Since you have a large house, why not use one of the rooms solely as your room? That would take care of the privacy issue, especially if you get a lock for the door. And you can sleep alone there, undisturbed. Because you won't be wondering if he will reject you or disappear or return in the middle of the night, your sleep can be more restful and uninterrupted.

You know you're attractive and certainly you've gotten acknowledgment about your appearance from the approving looks of other men. Regardless of your appearance, you are worthy of love and being treated well.

What you've done over the years is to be so desperate for his attention that you've lost self respect. And because you've made it too easy for him, he's lost respect for you.

What if you make him work for your attention? That might make him try a bit harder to be nice to you.

[formflier]

Snowglobe
 
We share many things in common.  A loved one with BPDish behaviors and difficulty sleeping.

I have several sleep disorders.  In my late 30s I started snoring and soon found "obstructive sleep apnea" was one of my diagnosis.

However during a number of sleep studies about half of my wakeups had "no physical cause", at least none that the bajillion wires hooked up to me could find.

That started a journey of getting healthier about my sleep.  I used prazosin for a while to reduce nightmares and hypervigilance.

Now all my sleep data is stored online so my docs and I can look at it.  If my seven day average is up around 8...I am a relatively productive and pleasant person.  7 is probably my normal.  6...well I don't like being around myself.

A seven day average down in the 4s and 5s...that's scary.  I'll start missing periods of time and having odd thought processes.

So...

You have to get sleep...regular...restful sleep.   

I really like Cat's idea of a room just for you. 

What can you do tonight so that you get a better nights sleep than normal for you?

Best,

FF

[snowglobe]

Cat and Ff,
Thank you for the replies. There aren’t any more spare bedrooms, the room downstairs is only a couch with no bathroom or closet space. This feeling of being hyper vigilant, uprooted and always anxious is adding to the process of falling asleep and staying asleep. I can’t kick anyone out of their rooms or comfort zones, other then rare occasion when the youngest requests my presence I don’t intrude on their privacy, hence the feeling of not having “my space”. Perhaps it’s something I should start actively working towards to. Ff, how do you manage to get quality sleep?
I also feel like I am loosing my mind. As I was working from my home office I got the following message from undiagnosed husband:
“Where are you?
Me: office
Him: my “male private part” is itching
What is this?. I just ignored. Like you said guys, no worth of value for me after many years of this. I don’t get aroused hearing something like this.

[formflier]

Someday, I can go into details of my sleep routine/sleep hygiene.  I think the important thing is that I try really hard to be consistent.  Same bed time, same routine..so that my body is used to "oh..it's time to sleep".

People are used to my boundaries and needs...so if others are still up, it's usually pretty quiet.

If my sleep gets "low", then I don't hesitate to express my needs and act on them.  My wife and others are pretty used to me "kicking the can to the morning" rather than try to do problem solving late at night (this was a big change for me several years ago).

Snowglobe

You really need to pick an area of your life and/or a part of your relationship with your husband that you are going to change, regardless of his reaction.

Perhaps sleep and intimacy in the bedroom is that place.

What do you think?

Best,

FF

[snowglobe]

Someday, I can go into details of my sleep routine/sleep hygiene.  I think the important thing is that I try really hard to be consistent.  Same bed time, same routine..so that my body is used to "oh..it's time to sleep".

People are used to my boundaries and needs...so if others are still up, it's usually pretty quiet.

If my sleep gets "low", then I don't hesitate to express my needs and act on them.  My wife and others are pretty used to me "kicking the can to the morning" rather than try to do problem solving late at night (this was a big change for me several years ago).

Snowglobe

You really need to pick an area of your life and/or a part of your relationship with your husband that you are going to change, regardless of his reaction.

Perhaps sleep and intimacy in the bedroom is that place.

What do you think?

Best,

FF

Sleep and intimacy sound like two things within my control. When and how I sleep is within my control. If I engage in sex or not, is also my choice.
As I was getting ready to leave and run errands he requested I do for him, he causally dropped “but before you go, let’s do the deed”. I paused for a moment and realized that I did not feel like I want to for several reasons: one - he didn’t pens much time around me, so this sudden need has nothing to do with wanting to experience a shared pleasure, to me, it’s nothing but a nature’s call he so rudely described. 2 Two- this “something is itching doesn’t constitute a foreplay or positive interaction, which sets a precedent to continue on with the same behaviour expecting the same result. No thanks.
Any feedback is appreciated.

[formflier]

I think you should say something like this to him.

"Babe, you had a great idea to improve our intimacy by going to counseling.   I regret that we stopped that.  Let's go back and improve our sex life."

We all know he most likely won't go.   That should improve your amount of time to sleep and lessen the amount of time you have to deal with an "itchy" husband.

Best,

FF

[snowglobe]

I think you should say something like this to him.

"Babe, you had a great idea to improve our intimacy by going to counseling.   I regret that we stopped that.  Let's go back and improve our sex life."

We all know he most likely won't go.   That should improve your amount of time to sleep and lessen the amount of time you have to deal with an "itchy" husband.

Best,

FF

The idea to go to counselling belongs to me- he said he wasn’t happy with our sex life and I suggested to try and find a counsellor to help us learn something new. Ultimately I was looking for a therapist who specializes in sexual dysfunctions, but therapist non the less. Like I told you guys before, on our second session she made it clear that satisfaction wasn’t possible without emotional intimacy. He gave it one more session and quit, stating that he has no desire to develop emotional intimacy.  The statement you proposed, would it still be relevant in this case? 

[formflier]

Your "requirements" to be intimate with your husband are up to you.

If you want intimacy...you have to require it.

If you want foreplay...you have to require it.


Most guys will do what is needed to get their version of intimacy, most won't go above and beyond.

I'm not saying that is right or wrong...I'm saying that an "it is what it is thing".

So if intimacy with you doesn't "require" foreplay, being nice...etc etc...it's unlikely your husband will do those things.

That's a very simplified version, but for these purposes...I think simple is appropriate.

Why did you husband let you know his...you know...was itching.  Well...my guess is in his mind that approach works for him.

You (not he) gets to determine what approach works.

Is this the issue or approach that I recommend you take right now...no it's not.  I think you should get an order of protection against him (no need to rehash all the reasoning)...

But...you need to pick something to "take back".  So for now if you are going to let the guns and threats slide, but are willing to "take back" your sleep and your intimacy...well I think that is a step toward a healthier you.

Please read that a couple of times...it's important to understand my intent.  Something is better than nothing.

I do think that you will think more clearly with more and better sleep.

I've lost count of the number of bad decisions I've made in sleep deprivation.

Best,

FF

[I Am Redeemed]

I think your assessment is correct- his behavior towards a sexual encounter with you definitely sounds more like a physical needs as opposed to an intimate experience with his wife, and his way of going about getting what he wants from you is demeaning and offensive. I've been there. It's hard to be sexually intimate with a man who consistently reminds you that he doesn't respect you or care about emotional intimacy with you.

In my case, my ex was so abusive that he was not interested in changing his behavior towards me nor was he interested in how deeply it impacted me. He went so far as to drug me to get me to consent to have sex with him because I had no desire to do so otherwise.

Yes, it is your choice to engage in a sexual encounter or not and you do not have to do so if you feel that his request is based on "nature's call" and it feels demeaning and offensive to you. The fact that he ended counseling because he was only interested in improving the physical aspect and not the emotional intimacy is incredibly revealing. He seems to want physical access to you regardless of how he has treated you, and likely he hasn't made the connection between his treatment of you and how it affects your desire to be intimate with him. I would also suspect that he doesn't care.

I also think you need an order of protection against him.

Going back to something you said earlier:

Can I ask you why having him sleep in your bed is comforting to you when he has assaulted you, disrespected you, deprived you of basic needs, deprived you of deeper emotional needs, and blatantly behaved in ways that cause harm to the entire family?

Do you think that having him sleep next to you means you have gotten his approval, and when he leaves the marital bed to sleep elsewhere it means he is discontent with the marriage? I see you focusing on this behavior as being incredibly hurtful to you, which I suspect is one reason he does it- it gets to you in a powerful way.

[formflier]

Can I ask you why having him sleep in your bed is comforting to you when he has assaulted you, disrespected you, deprived you of basic needs, deprived you of deeper emotional needs, and blatantly behaved in ways that cause harm to the entire family?
 

Isn't the gun involved in this somewhere as well?  Does the gun stay put or does he move it around with him?

Best,

FF

[ct21218]

Snow globe, I am so very sorry that you are in this situation.  I feel as though your house is on fire and you are worried about what to make for dinner.  The priority needs to be you and your family's safety.  I think you need the help of both a therapist and an attorney to sort out YOUR options.  Your husband is not going to change.  I would imagine that your sleep issues are not going to go away until the imminent threat is gone.  Either you need to get out of that house and get somewhere safe or he needs to be removed by police.  This is not going to end well.

[I Am Redeemed]

I feel as though your house is on fire and you are worried about what to make for dinner.  The priority needs to be you and your family's safety. 

This! Yes, yes, yes!

[Cat Familiar]

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