Successful boundary setting with MIL Part 5

[pursuingJoy]

*mod note: This thread was split from this discussion:https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=346240.0

This may have played a role.  Sounds like she came from a complicated FOO herself.  

If she didn't have loving attachments from somewhere as a child, she might not have had the opportunity to be "wired up" to be "nurturing" when she became a parent.  I'm wondering, is her history known well enough to know if she ever had a healthy "bond" with an adult caregiver when she was a child?   For most healthy people, bonding kind of comes sort of naturally.  But for people that didn't grow up with healthy adults around them, they can end up with some bizarre ideas of "normal", of "love", of what a relationship should look like.

Yessssss. MIL's Mom became pregnant with MIL out of wedlock. Mom tried numerous times to abort MIL (at least, that's the word on the street, according to MIL). MIL was raised by her granny, seeing her mom only occasionally, at which time Mom would refer to MIL as a 'cousin visiting from the country.'

(MIL and H both insist that MIL is completely over this, but they talk about these things very frequently.)

For some reason, when MIL was 16, Mom demanded that she come to live with her. At that point Mom was married and had 3 other kids, so MIL joined her half-siblings. At 17, MIL met FIL at a party, and they married soon after.

Even on her death bed, Mom refused to tell MIL who her father was. (Knowing this was a pain point for her, I took the initiative and paid for an Ancestry DNA kit and tried to find him using the Ancestry database. I worked hard on this and found a 3rd cousin, but there are still too many options for the father. We're still hopeful - we need more people to get tested.)

MIL's mom passed away about two years after H and I got married. The pastor really struggled with the eulogy, saying things like, "Well, we all know she was a spitfire. She didn't have a lot of friends, and she could be crass, but that was just her way, you know?"

So you are absolutely correct. FOO and lack of attachment played a major role in her development.

Case in point, when my mom introduced me to her new beau (in his 70's), she (in her 70's) said to me (in my 50's) and him "now you two hug each other".  To her that meant we became family and would get along.  Clueless.

How awkward.  

So to get back to your point, maybe the gender thing plays a role, but for healthy parents, I don't know if the sex of the child is more or less significant than the ability to form healthy emotional bonds in the first place.  I'm just thinking and being curious out loud here.  I guess when I think of "bonding and attachment", I think of it within the definition of the healthy spectrum.  I was blessed with a really genuine loving father, so I also had the opportunity to "wire up" attachments within the healthy spectrum,

Really good points, Methuen.

As to "bonding" with my mom, looking back, I don't know about this PJ.  Even as a child, she drove me crazy.  I spent a lot of time in the forest behind our house under a tree crying. Trees were my best friends (I was an only child).  She never came to look for me.  She left me alone at a bus stop when I was 4, and drove off.  I was there for a LONG time before other kids with their mother's came and waited for the bus taking us to our swimming lessons.  That doesn't really sound like a thing a "bonded" mother would do.

No, it isn't bonding. As a mom, I'm so upset you had to endure this. Bonding was not a good word to use, you're absolutely correct. Bonding would be healthy and mutually beneficial, where enmeshment (mostly) serves one party.

I'm more comfortable thinking about our relationship in my teen years and early adult life as emotional enmeshment, rather than a real "bond".  Looking at it now, I the child, was a tool to meet her needs.  Not much more than that.  As I got older (teen years), I would say she molded our relationship to be one of "best friends", but I was always doing what she wanted me to do, not what I wanted to do (I was the vessel through which she lived her dream childhood vicariously).  Sometimes it worked for me and I got something out of it, like when we travelled abroad together, but those things would always come back to "haunt" me because I always "owed" her.  She had me in music lessons (because that was "her" dream of what she wanted as a child).  Predictably, I practiced hard and performed well.  Left home to go to music school.  Also predictably, as soon as I left home, within 3 months I dropped out of music school and choose another career.  But I couldn't do that until I was away from her.  

Wow, Methuen.

I wonder if that may be a driving factor in MIL's behavior- she needs her son to have the "perfect marriage" complete with an enmeshed DIL to validate her parenting.

I never considered that optics might be a driver for MIL.

The reason I think this may be the case is that when H cheated on his ex-wife, MIL was shaaaamed to the nth degree. She was absolutely mortified and would not stop talking to anyone who would listen about how much it hurt HER. The other clue is that at the beginning, she would brag to her friends that she and I got along so well. I was "such a wonderful DIL, not like DIL1 and DIL2, who treated her horribly." It always felt uncomfortable.

So, with all that in mind, if your H was the GC, the connection between your H and your MIL may be a pretty complicated web, beyond just the gender issue.  I think BPD's ideas are so distorted, and their emotional "holes" (abandonment, lack of self etc) are so intense, that their "defense" becomes how to use people to fill their own needs (including their own children).  We are just tools.  As one T pointed out once, mom does love me as best as she can, it's just that her toolbox for love is at about the developmental level of the average 13 year old (when her mother got sick and died and left her with a   of a father).

So insightful. I'll be chewing on this for a while.

Your MIL probably took your H to wrestling, soccer, and football because the optics were good...she looked like a good mother.  So when you say she did these things, but they never really bonded, that doesn't surprise me.  It's actually what I would expect.  It fits with my experience.  My mom took me to all the things she did because ultimately I made her look good. Again, after she had me, she found a way to use me as a tool to have her needs met (enter FOG).  I'm going to hazard a guess that maybe your H was pretty good at either wrestling, or soccer or football, or all of the above?  See where I'm going?  

He was very good at whatever sport he got involved with. Do you think his excellence reflected on her, too, improving the optics even more?
  

H has made comments like, "Mom was the only girl in the family, that's why she so desperately wants a relationship with you."

This is just so fascinating.  I did not see this coming in your story.  At. All.  So I'm thinking on this, and analyzing...  
- mom desperately wants a real relationship (maybe with a female friend, maybe not).  
- your H has interpreted this to mean she wants it with you.  But does she really?

She has very attentive females in her life, so I have a hard time believing this. Leaving room for possibilities, though.

- you have made her piece of the pie she gets with H a lot smaller.  We all know how some BPD mom's can typically try to drive a wedge with DIL so they can have their son all to themselves

On the other hand, maybe she does desperately want a r/s with you, but at some point, you didn't validate or fill or needs, so you became all BLACK.  Thus the intensity of the Karpman triangle...

This rings true. Looking back, she was 'wooing' me at the beginning. She was open to me being her secondary source of supply. When I gently resisted, she felt rejected and I was painted black, the enemy, and because of how close she is with H, the dynamic shifted.

- the relationship your H thinks she wants with you, seems to be the one she is working on H to have...maybe?

Ew. Yes, and ew.  

I mean she seems to be dedicating a lot of time to your H, and a lot of emotional energy into her relationship with him, and against you...  so confusing!

Yep, all of this with gaslighty waifiness, which you'll miss if you're not paying attention or don't want to see it.

She is more manageable (ie, she doesn't dysregulate) if she feels confident about her source of emotional supply. H knows this intuitively, which is why he spends a good deal of energy reassuring her.

Being her source does something for him, too, though. He felt a good deal of guilt when her needs were being met by her sister and cousins when she moved. I didn't see that coming.

Enter FF's idea of turning the tables, and working the game to foster a "girly" connection with her.  

If this could work, it could definitely change up the dynamic.

I see the logic. I'm not sure I can pull it off authentically. I'm also concerned that by engaging, especially one on one, she'll then assume I'm accepting the role of being her emotional supply. Because it's what she does, she'll then most likely violate boundaries, which will mean I enforce them again, which will drive the painful stake in even deeper. Because H is so enmeshed, I'm not sure our marriage would survive another round.

I feel that my current boundary/way of relating is mitigating damage, although I'm also committed to reassessing it to make sure it's the healthiest option at this time.

So where would her new scapegoat come from?  A BPD's always got to have a scapegoat.  Her H passed.  A son passed.  It currently seems like you are a scapegoat of sorts.  Does she have other people in her life who could become her scapegoat?  

She's scapegoated three of her former neighbors for different offenses. Most recently she scapegoated her granddaughter, SD27, H's oldest daughter. I almost don't feel special anymore

Seriously, I know I'm scapegoated, but it's getting harder for it to hold water, at least for H. That's evidenced by his response to her reassuring him that she wouldn't come inside the house. I can't change whether or not she scapegoats me. I can choose to reject the mantle.

The problem I see with fostering the "girly" relationship, is that it would be really hard to maintain genuineness through all her shananagans, and maintain a genuine conversation through all the crazy thoughts and ideas that would probably come out of her mouth, especially when she pushes buttons to create drama...and a BPD always sees through the disingenuous...

Even if it's what she wants and it would really help, I don't think I can authentically pull off a version of 'girl-talk' that would suit her needs. My patience for her bs is not unlimited. Part of boundaries is keeping me in my lane, not keeping her out.

Yes, I get the sense he's trying really hard to please his mom.  I did this too.  It wore me into the ground, and then I landed on this forum.  

It's helpful to hear things from his perspective. The hardest part of all of this is that he can't share how he's feeling. Hearing from you all is something I treasure. Thank you.

[pursuingJoy]

I have to wonder if this is an angle you can use to "take back the power" in the relationship..perhaps "destabilize" it in your favor.

"Destabilize" is not really my favorite word for this but I think it's ok.  Hang with me a sec.  pwBPD seem to have this uncanny ability to flip the world upside down on a stable situation.

I really like this concept of destabilizing (in the most positive way possible ). I do believe in my case that every proactive step has been destabilizing, in that it counters her/their narrative. Another tool for the toolbox.

[livednlearned]

I will say that there is no version of private, one one one conversation with MIL that feels wise. She has frequently twisted the narrative and used what I've said as fuel. Maybe that's retreat, and maybe it's wisdom

Sure seems wise to me, especially for those of us who have a once removed relationship. We don't get the simplicity of a one-on-one, even when it's just us and the pwBPD. Relationships and emotions are mediated through a third person (H) who can be effectively exploited when not present physically.

My H knows that SD23 twists narratives. This pre-dates me and he is not surprised by it. Even so, when she has twisted the narrative, he focuses on her needs, her emotions, her narrative. It's a win-win for her because she ended up with what she wanted, which is validation that she's a victim, even when she's the one doing it to herself!

I'm not sure I can pull it off authentically

That's so great you have that touchpoint. My T has even suggested I say to SD23, "I'm not feeling particularly authentic right now, SD23, so I'm going to take a pass."

I haven't been able to say those words yet, but the idea that authenticity is what I'm going for (acting in alignment with values and emotions) has been a helpful guide.

I'm also concerned that by engaging, especially one on one, she'll then assume I'm accepting the role of being her emotional supply. Because it's what she does, she'll then most likely violate boundaries, which will mean I enforce them again, which will drive the painful stake in even deeper. Because H is so enmeshed, I'm not sure our marriage would survive another round.

Is there specific pressure from H for you to spend 1:1 time with MIL? Maybe I missed it in the thread, or maybe it's more about the girl time comment from H?

I think relationships like these are based on risk assessment. If H was more in agreement re: MIL shenanigans and had your back, you would spend 1:1 time with her because your marriage would feel safer. Yes?

We have control over ourselves, and can assert good boundaries, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the relationships will naturally succeed. These threeple relationships where there is significant enmeshment between two people can feel almost like two BPDs and a non   Boundaries have to be understood in the context of that dynamic.

I expressed to H a relatively clear set of rules in advance of SD23's last visits and it was overall a successful visit. There are scenarios when it works for all three of us to be together but even then there is quite a bit of structure. I retreat and advance based on whatever configuration we're in -- there aren't that many variations, surprisingly. The last visit, I didn't participate in any outings outside the house (retreat), and I found myself relaxed enough to hang out (advance) and engage SD23 when H was making dinner. She was tired from the hike and was sitting at the counter. In the past, I could barely stand to be in the kitchen (retreat) because SD23 would cling to him like velcro and I felt too weirded by her behavior to engage her.

What am I trying to say ... that the retreat/advance thing is based not only on what we are doing, but what they are doing, too.

[livednlearned]

.

[Methuen]

He was very good at whatever sport he got involved with. Do you think his excellence reflected on her, too, improving the optics even more?

100%

H has made comments like, "Mom was the only girl in the family, that's why she so desperately wants a relationship with you." ... - your H has interpreted this to mean she wants it with you.  But does she really?
She has very attentive females in her life, so I have a hard time believing this. Leaving room for possibilities, though.

Sounds like MIL saying "mom was the only girl in the family and that's why she so desperately wants a relationship with you) is a "grand" way to speak to your H as a victim, and triangulate him against you.  If you think there is any merit to this idea, power seems a root problem because she uses it to manipulate and control your H, because all his devoted attention could help to fill her need to feel important and loved.  Do you think your H has any power that he exercises in his relationship with MIL?

This rings true. Looking back, she was 'wooing' me at the beginning. She was open to me being her secondary source of supply. When I gently resisted, she felt rejected and I was painted black, the enemy, and because of how close she is with H, the dynamic shifted.

 Yep.

Being her source does something for him, too, though. He felt a good deal of guilt when her needs were being met by her sister and cousins when she moved. I didn't see that coming.

Aha.  I wonder what it will take for H to "not be getting enough from the relationship".  That's what eventually happened to me...eventually the relationship became so toxic that I just wasn't getting anything back...but pain.  I don't get the sense that your H is near that though through his behavior you have described, although I do sense that he has made some progress (in standing up for you).  Have you noticed any micro or macro changes over the years?

I'm not sure I can pull it off authentically. I'm also concerned that by engaging, especially one on one, she'll then assume I'm accepting the role of being her emotional supply. Because it's what she does, she'll then most likely violate boundaries, which will mean I enforce them again, which will drive the painful stake in even deeper. Because H is so enmeshed, I'm not sure our marriage would survive another round...I feel that my current boundary/way of relating is mitigating damage, although I'm also committed to reassessing it to make sure it's the healthiest option at this time.

I'm totally at your side with this.  Pretending I'm something I'm not doesn't sit with my values either.  Besides, in an earlier post you've already tried these things (the whole "shopping for a dress episode" et al.) and they've backfired badly.  I think your current approach is based on both thoughtful wisdom, and reflective experience.  Plus, you are probably also at the point where you must also do what you have to do, to protect your own well-being.  

The hardest part of all of this is that he can't share how he's feeling.

Oh PJ.  

From my perspective this could be at least in part because of trust issues.  Does he have trust issues?  I definitely have trust issues.  I could write a childhood book of stories that would illustrate why I have trust issues as an adult.  His experience is likely similar...  It's hard to share your true feelings, when FOO (and previous W's) have given you every reason to not share your feelings.  Feelings can be used against you in very dangerous ways...and at the most unpredictable times...  

After all your years of marriage, it must be disheartening that he doesn't share how he's feeling.  But he may have a previous lifetime of experience that has trained him to protect his feelings and share with no one.  Hard to undo that, if you think it fits for your situation... On the other hand, my epiphany did come.  I still have hope that his will too.

[formflier]

I think it would be a good thing if you became MIL's "supply".  (big breath...)

And you determine what that "supply"  is.

So..girly time with her.  Talk about anything other than hubby.  You can come up with other things as well.

If you need her help to vent over an antique dealer that is so unreasonable...or "the guy at the tile store" or..

I think you get the picture.

She will violate your boundaries.

"Oh..well that sounds interesting, but I can't imagine talking about hubby with him not around.  I'm glad we both think he is wonderful."  (then talk about a fish recipe)

When hubby wants to know what you guys do..."girl stuff"

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

I'm going to weigh in on the one-on-one time.

It feels icky.

The fact that you've tried "girly time" before with no positive results, and the knowledge that she WILL violate boundaries...I wouldn't be signing up for more than you are doing now.

Proactively coming up with group activities or suggestions is fine. That seems to have worked okay.

I am very, very choosy about the persons with whom I spend one-on-one time. Spending that time with someone who drains energy -- because I can't be authentic -- isn't an investment I want to make.

Maybe "energy management" is another way to look at what you are willing or able to do. Will the interaction give you energy or deplete energy?

[formflier]

The fact that you've tried "girly time" before with no positive results, and the knowledge that she WILL violate boundaries...

I'm much less interested in MILs behavior and much more interested in how PJ non-chalantly bats way the intrusions and redirects.

Here is my take.  PJ had a pretty steep learning curve and like many BPDish issues "took a hit" because she hadn't seen it before.

MIL isn't going to change...so use that to your advantage  You know the playbook.

She doesn't know yours.

Plus..as the emotionally healthy one, you can change your playbook at will.  Can she?

I see benefits for your marriage as well. 

This is at a time and place of PJs choosing...she chooses boundaries.  MIL may punt and not do it.

Again..what MIL does or doesn't do isn't the point..

Best,

FF

[pursuingJoy]

We don't get the simplicity of a one-on-one, even when it's just us and the pwBPD. Relationships and emotions are mediated through a third person (H) who can be effectively exploited when not present physically.

Yessss. So well said.

My H knows that SD23 twists narratives.

Has she ever twisted a narrative about you directly to him?

Our H's have instinctively learned to validate and manage and bring their BPD's to baselines.  Now if they could just get the boundaries and "don't validate the invalid" part... 

the idea that authenticity is what I'm going for (acting in alignment with values and emotions) has been a helpful guide.

So centering and validating. Yes. (insert "testify" gif here)
 

Is there specific pressure from H for you to spend 1:1 time with MIL? Maybe I missed it in the thread, or maybe it's more about the girl time comment from H?

No. The first few years, when I expressed frustration at her lack of boundaries or neediness, his solution was to encourage more girl time together. (In hindsight - little AHA moment - that solution actually works for him. When she's dysregulating, he drops everything to spend a day with her. She's good for a few weeks.)

But I'm not her son. At the time, not knowing her well, I took his advice and gave it a shot. It fell flat. I mean, limp as a wet wash cloth. But I kept trying to do nice things or give nice gifts. By year three, I'm realizing H is always suuuper thankful, MIL wasn't phased. At all.

Interesting - she never asked for time alone with me, at least that I know of.

He hasn't suggested time alone with her for about 4 years.

I think relationships like these are based on risk assessment. If H was more in agreement re: MIL shenanigans and had your back, you would spend 1:1 time with her because your marriage would feel safer. Yes?

YES ALL THE WAY. I wish my H understood this.

We have control over ourselves, and can assert good boundaries, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the relationships will naturally succeed.

So true. Doesn't mean we don't continue to learn healthy ways of relating, but we're doing this for us, because it's the right and healthy thing to do, not because there's a guaranteed outcome.

These threeple relationships

I just snorted

where there is significant enmeshment between two people can feel almost like two BPDs and a non   Boundaries have to be understood in the context of that dynamic.

It is such a relief to be understood. I'm sorry you've had to go through stuff but I'm so glad you're here.

I expressed to H a relatively clear set of rules in advance of SD23's last visits and it was overall a successful visit.

What were your rules? Does your H support the clear set of rules? I'm guessing he doesn't prefer the discomfort that comes with them, but does he go along? Pout? Back you up? Does SD23 complain to him on the back end? I think you mentioned that she once asked if you were ok, or something along those lines.

My H is with me until MIL complains to him, at which time he turns on me for being cold and cruel. Doesn't change my mind, but it's not the way I wish it was.

There are scenarios when it works for all three of us to be together but even then there is quite a bit of structure.

I love the way you describe it as retreating and advancing. The structure helps me, for sure. I don't really mind hanging out as long as we have a plan. Visiting the alpaca farm all day? No problem. Preparing and eating Thanksgiving dinner? Got it. Sitting in the living room for hours? Peace out.

In the past, I could barely stand to be in the kitchen (retreat) because SD23 would cling to him like velcro and I felt too weirded by her behavior to engage her.

Her behavior is weird. When you describe it, I feel the ick, physically. It's not within the norm of social boundaries. We've already talked about how it feels competitive and territorial, right?

I've always felt that MIL kissed H on the mouth, brought up stories of him as a baby and giving birth to him, shared memories, even brought up the deaths of his dad and brother...nonstop...as a means of informing me that she had him first. My previous MIL was not like that. My mother is not like that with her sons.

It's like I was walking on the track. MIL started sprinting beside me, so I started running too for some reason. This made her run faster. I just wanted to scream, "why are we running?"

So I stopped.

What am I trying to say ... that the retreat/advance thing is based not only on what we are doing, but what they are doing, too.

It sounds like you've found a good balance. Any word on her visiting? Has it come up again?

[livednlearned]

What were your rules? Does your H support the clear set of rules? I'm guessing he doesn't prefer the discomfort that comes with them, but does he go along? Pout? Back you up? Does SD23 complain to him on the back end? I think you mentioned that she once asked if you were ok, or something along those lines.

They fall into two categories.

In one category, I have control over them and they seem to work better if I just do them, rather than discuss them with H.

     *I do not cook when SD23 visits
     *I walk out of the room when the weird hugging gets to me
     *I lock my bedroom door when I'm in it, and when H is in there with me
     *I buy a puzzle to help manage awkward social interactions with SD23
     *I put on headphones, or call family/friends to redirect myself when H/SD23 is too much
     *I put foods out of view that are not for SD23 consumption
     *If texts are so urgent that phones cannot be put away, then other activities will have to wait
   
     
He accepts these. The last one came with significant amounts of push back but he now accepts it.

The other category addresses loopholes in my boundaries created by H. "Here are boundaries that I will handle. I'm offering you the heads up as a courtesy to handle these boundaries before they reach me." 

     *I will not go for a hike or walk the dog with you and SD23
     *I will say no if asked in front of SD23 to do things with her alone
     *I will not respond to SD23 messages sent through you to me
     *I will remind SD23 to check with me if visits are arranged without my input
     *I will ask BF to wait elsewhere if he arrives before SD23

H does not want open conflict so he mostly complied. Some of these are past tense issues and they were a work in progress. On the visits, he finally recognized that I wasn't trying to veto visits, I was trying to communicate that it was my house too. I was willing to accept even a small step in that direction and we did seem to get there. "SD23 wants to visit next weekend, and I told her I didn't think it was a problem but that I needed to check with you first."

Fair enough.

It's like I was walking on the track. MIL started sprinting beside me, so I started running too for some reason. This made her run faster. I just wanted to scream, "why are we running?"

  I wondered who was running in the lane next to me and SD23

Any word on her visiting? Has it come up again?

Girlfriend.

With BF gone, the texting and calling and talk about visits has reached code red. Last night I counted 21 times I heard H receiving texts from her. Even H was exasperated. He said to me, "Geez, SD23, get a cat."

One of the messages was about how SD23 felt the need to poop during a meeting.

Top level stuff.

This is after a long call between them a few hours earlier and texting throughout the day. It's seriously like living with a 13-year-old.

A few days ago H said, "SD23 wants to know why aunt/uncle could fly to see cousin but SD23 can't come here to visit. She wants to come out over the holidays, which isn't going to happen, so I'm trying to keep her occupied. She's feeling lonely because of the break-up and is understandably upset. She says she wants to come here and tutor or teach guitar. She needs to get a cat."

It's like H is prepping me for the same thing I'm prepping him for, but in reverse.

Interestingly, we are at an inflection point because we're about to build a house and I want to iron out the values/philosophy about extended stays. Either we decide yes, kids can come back to live for months at a time and we add a room for that. Or no, we help them get on their feet in other ways and build a smaller house that works for us. I'm using this opportunity to really clarify our values --> so that boundaries are clear.

My goal is to get this verbalized so that when/if SD23 wants to come out for months over her teacher summers, I can point back to our agreement. "We agreed to build a smaller house and limit their stays."

There is a lot of pain and anguish behind this. SD23 lived with us for two and half summers and most of her 4-week breaks over the holidays, not to mention spring breaks and other extended holidays. It nearly ruined our marriage and lit up my nervous system like a Christmas tree. H and I are not addressing that era directly because it's so painful, instead we're tap dancing around it with hypotheticals.

I wish our dynamic was strong enough to build the house we want AND say no to extended stays, but the truth is we are a blended family with dysfunction running through it.

And I wish I could say Hell No when he plants seeds about her living here for months. I think the degree of discord we went through has made me wary of engaging it unless there is a hard ask on the table.

[pursuingJoy]

Sounds like MIL saying "mom was the only girl in the family and that's why she so desperately wants a relationship with you) is a "grand" way to speak to your H as a victim, and triangulate him against you.  

I don't think she ever said this? That is a question, because I don't know. It's very possible that he came up with that theory. I'm his 3rd wife, so he's had these conversations about his mom before. He's practiced these excuses.

If you think there is any merit to this idea, power seems a root problem because she uses it to manipulate and control your H, because all his devoted attention could help to fill her need to feel important and loved.  Do you think your H has any power that he exercises in his relationship with MIL?

Huh. I hadn't thought about this before. The power dynamic in their relationship feels pretty huge. I'm glad you brought this up. I've always felt like her house was a chess piece. Not just the memories, his name was with hers on the title. Technically he could have received 50% when she sold it. She 'only' gave him $5000, which for her was a strong statement that he had disappointed her. Neither of us cared.

She wields money. He's 46, but she treats him to gas money when he visits. When she liked me, it was nothing for her to push a $100 bill into my hand and insist that I take it. She would make it a point NOT to give her own son money, and make sure I took it all. (? This was always odd to me.) I would refuse, she would smile and say, "Let me win." And laugh. When she started to get upset with me, she quit giving me money.

It's taken time to identify her chess pieces and encourage him to individuate.

Aha.  I wonder what it will take for H to "not be getting enough from the relationship".  That's what eventually happened to me...eventually the relationship became so toxic that I just wasn't getting anything back...but pain.  I don't get the sense that your H is near that though through his behavior you have described, although I do sense that he has made some progress (in standing up for you).  Have you noticed any micro or macro changes over the years?

Yes I totally think this is what will need to happen. Whether it will or not, I don't know. What I intuit is that if our marriage wasn't something worth staying for, he'd drop me like a hot potato for his mom. From stories you and others tell, I expect that aging will make her behavior worsen. I'm focused on shoring  up my relationship with him to make it worth staying.

The only change I've seen is that when I quit talking about her (persecuting), he calmed down and became less defensive. Other than that, the two statements he's made recently are really all I've seen.

I'm totally at your side with this.  Pretending I'm something I'm not doesn't sit with my values either.  Besides, in an earlier post you've already tried these things (the whole "shopping for a dress episode" et al.) and they've backfired badly.  I think your current approach is based on both thoughtful wisdom, and reflective experience.  Plus, you are probably also at the point where you must also do what you have to do, to protect your own well-being.  

Thanks for the support.  It means a lot, M.

From my perspective this could be at least in part because of trust issues. Feelings can be used against you in very dangerous ways...and at the most unpredictable times...

I was going to say "no" to trust issues until I read your last sentence. He's told me this, almost verbatim. He's very trusting on a surface level. He talks to strangers. Invites random people in the house. He'd lend a stranger his tools and not think anything of it. But he rarely shares how he's feeling. (I try hard to just listen when he does, even if it hurts me or makes me feel defensive, because it's important for him to practice it and feel safe in doing so. I don't always succeed.)


I also don't think he's learned or practiced identifying his feelings. He knows he feels a strong emotion but he can't tell me what it is. Is it being raised by a BPD mom? Enforced gender roles? Military background?
 

On the other hand, my epiphany did come.  I still have hope that his will too.

This gives me more hope than you know. Thank you M. 

[formflier]

It's taken time to identify her chess pieces and encourage him to individuate.
 

This...this is the heart  of the suggestion to be proactive and reach out directly to her for "time"..."girly time", whatever.

For the sake of this discussion, stick with chess.

She and hubby have been playing chess matches for a long time with a very structured set of rules.  Or several sets of structured rules that they flip to seemingly randomly...but now you have the wisdom to know it's not random.  Drama triangle roles are in there.

Well...I'm not at all suggesting that you play chess by their rules to put them in check or any of that.  I am suggesting that you realize there is a game of chess going on and you can be deliberate about playing your own game of chess and preventing them from placing you (and possibly each other) in check.

An insurgency if you will.  You can make moves that extend their number of chess moves to get to check by a massive amount, so much so they both mutually agree to start a new game.

You begin the insurgency again...leaving them both frustrated. 

MIL will be comfortable going overt with dysfunction.  You hubby is likely "healthy" enough now that he will be uncomfortable with your insurgency "forcing" him to be overtly "unhealthy" or "dysfunctional" that you will probably "win" a few of the chess matches or "force resets" where they both determine they don't want to play anymore and the chess game resets.

Because we know...we know that MIL isn't going to be put in "check"..right?

It's been a while since I've use the troll analogy and I'm certainly not suggesting that PJ is a troll that should live under the bridge.

That being said...I think we all should...from time to time "embrace our inner troll".   If they want to get to the BPDish grass on the other side they have to cross that bridge with a healthy but hungry PJ living underneath it.

I see PJ's teeth growing now.  Big..scary..healthy teeth!

Get the picture?

Best,

FF

[pursuingJoy]

I see PJ's teeth growing now.  Big..scary..healthy teeth!

rawr.

Thanks for the pep talk ff. A theme I appreciate in your posts is being proactive, not just reactive and ONLY retreating. I really appreciate the challenge to step into it, not away from it. I also super appreciate the concept of upsetting the apple cart by doing something unexpected. You are so right that this is a powerful tool.

It sounds like you've done this successfully. Can you share a few examples of how you did it and what happened?

An insurgency if you will.  You can make moves that extend their number of chess moves to get to check by a massive amount, so much so they both mutually agree to start a new game.

Stepping off the triangle was more of an insurgency than anything else I've done thus far (rawr   ). Until I stepped out of the triangle, I was playing the game by their rules, stepping into the role of scapegoat that they needed me to play. Whooeee they were mad. So far, it's the step that's led to the most positive progress.

You hubby is likely "healthy" enough now that he will be uncomfortable with your insurgency "forcing" him to be overtly "unhealthy" or "dysfunctional" that you will probably "win" a few of the chess matches or "force resets" where they both determine they don't want to play anymore and the chess game resets.

Can you explain what you mean by "healthy enough to be uncomfortable with the insurgency forcing him to be overtly unhealthy?"

[pursuingJoy]

I'm going to weigh in on the one-on-one time.

It feels icky.

The fact that you've tried "girly time" before with no positive results, and the knowledge that she WILL violate boundaries...I wouldn't be signing up for more than you are doing now.

It helps to hear this, GaGrl. My gut is telling me that one-on-one time isn't wise, nor is it wanted by any party at this point.

Proactively coming up with group activities or suggestions is fine. That seems to have worked okay.

I need to think more about the proactive piece and stay a step ahead of them. MIL has an uncanny ability to shift her target once something doesn't work. I don't feel like I can get comfortable. (Which really sucks, if I'm being honest.)


I am very, very choosy about the persons with whom I spend one-on-one time. Spending that time with someone who drains energy -- because I can't be authentic -- isn't an investment I want to make.

Maybe "energy management" is another way to look at what you are willing or able to do. Will the interaction give you energy or deplete energy?
[/quote]

Saaaaaame. I value my peace and protect my energy. Last year I set boundaries with a friend who kept stepping all over me. I set boundaries with my own kids, and my family. I set boundaries at work. I really tried extra hard to be flexible with MIL because she is family, and I'm trying to build something bigger than me.

[formflier]

  nor is it wanted by any party at this point.
 

Which is EXACTLY why should should push for it.  I'll also offer a bet that it won't be accepted, then I fully expect you to make which chess move BACK ONTO THE DRAMA TRIANGLE.

What move will really jack up their chess game?

I most likely wasn't clear that I don't expect MIL to go through with it and if you really don't want 1 on 1 time, use covid to your advantage.  "Oh my...I seem to be running a temp, I certainly don't want to put you at risk, let's reschedule for 2 weeks from now." (kick it down the road)



Best,

FF

[formflier]

Not ignoring the rest, just pressed for time.

Can you explain what you mean by "healthy enough to be uncomfortable with the insurgency forcing him to be overtly unhealthy?"

Remember part of your story when the counselor challenged him about PJ reaching out to MIL and then asking him what she has done?  And he sat silent.

He's getting it.

This is something where the pressure needs to stay on, but not in overwhelming way.  And when he complains (which he will) about the MIL issue and your "insurgency", you offer him healthy options for relief that benefit your marriage.

"Oh babe...I agree all this pressure is unbearable.  How about we sneak off for a weekend away and "unplug"..devices off.

Then...pause..."I actually got a couple new devices we might want to explore...alone..." swat him on the rear and walk away.

Cost benefits analysis. 

You offered 1 on 1 time, got punted (no loss there right) and now is your hubby thinking about you or her?

Hmmm?

rawr!   

FF

[Methuen]

Sounds like MIL saying "mom was the only girl in the family and that's why she so desperately wants a relationship with you) is a "grand" way to speak to your H as a victim, and triangulate him against you.

I don't think she ever said this? That is a question, because I don't know. It's very possible that he came up with that theory.

You're right PJ.  I mispoke there, because I had a moment of confusion in thinking your MIL said that, but it was your H that said that, right?  Although quite honestly, if he did say that, I wouldn't be surprised if she had said it to him at some point (or where else would it come from?), but I'm speculating now.  Could my mis-speaking be a Freudian slip?

"mom was the only girl in the family and that's why she so desperately wants a relationship with you"

I thought this was something H said to you (and maybe that's why FF started down this path of "girl time"?), but I've scanned back to p1 of this story, and can't come up with the quote!  

What I intuit is that if our marriage wasn't something worth staying for, he'd drop me like a hot potato for his mom. From stories you and others tell, I expect that aging will make her behavior worsen. I'm focused on shoring  up my relationship with him to make it worth staying.

Feelings can be used against you in very dangerous ways...and at the most unpredictable times...
I was going to say "no" to trust issues until I read your last sentence. He's told me this, almost verbatim.

OK, if he's said that in his own words, I'm guessing there's something to the "trust" issue.  And remember, even if he is enmeshed with his mom, he probably does the things he does (like kiss her on the mouth), because he's afraid of what could happen if he changed.  So if there's a fear of her responses, and history (and he's learned what happens if he doesn't please her), I can imagine he would be reluctant to share his feelings with you (if he even knows what his feelings are), because of fear of what would happen if she ever found out.  We children of BPD's tend to catastrophize.  And our catatrophizing isn't logical...it's built on fear of our BPD parent.  So trusting others is hard, because so much can go wrong.  This is only an "idea" I'm putting forward from my own experience.  Perhaps there's nothing to it for H.

 

He knows he feels a strong emotion but he can't tell me what it is. Is it being raised by a BPD mom? Enforced gender roles? Military background?

 All of the above?  

[pursuingJoy]

Could my mis-speaking be a Freudian slip? lolI

I heard the Twilight Zone theme music when I read this 
 

And remember, even if he is enmeshed with his mom, he probably does the things he does (like kiss her on the mouth), because he's afraid of what could happen if he changed.  

I read this and thought, "But what would happen? So she gets upset. So? She's his mom. I have no doubt that my mom will love me no matter what...I'll love my kids no matter what...Oh. Wait. He must not feel that? Then why does he insist he does?"

So if there's a fear of her responses, and history (and he's learned what happens if he doesn't please her), I can imagine he would be reluctant to share his feelings with you (if he even knows what his feelings are), because of fear of what would happen if she ever found out.  We children of BPD's tend to catastrophize.  And our catatrophizing isn't logical...it's built on fear of our BPD parent.

I think you're onto something here, M. Is it just a general sense of dread, fear of the unknown? Or is it fear of losing BPD mom's love? Attention? Fear of feeling shame associated with her rage?

[pursuingJoy]

Remember part of your story when the counselor challenged him about PJ reaching out to MIL and then asking him what she has done?  And he sat silent.

He's getting it.

Huh. I hadn't thought about it this way. Ok.

This is something where the pressure needs to stay on, but not in overwhelming way.  And when he complains (which he will) about the MIL issue and your "insurgency", you offer him healthy options for relief that benefit your marriage.

This I can and will do. 

I am pj hear me rawr. 

[Methuen]

So if there's a fear of her responses, and history (and he's learned what happens if he doesn't please her), I can imagine he would be reluctant to share his feelings with you (if he even knows what his feelings are), because of fear of what would happen if she ever found out.  We children of BPD's tend to catastrophize.  And our catatrophizing isn't logical...it's built on fear of our BPD parent.

I think you're onto something here, M. Is it just a general sense of dread, fear of the unknown? Or is it fear of losing BPD mom's love? Attention? Fear of feeling shame associated with her rage?

For me it was a progressive fear of the horrible things she would say to me.  Over time it compounded into a kind of hidden terror .  I was terrified of what she would say to hurt me, and the only way I thought I could manage was to keep trying harder to be a better daughter.  All the while she was projecting and raging at me.  

It’s not lost on me that your H doesn’t share conversations he has with her, with you EVER, or talk about his feelings.  I think it could be possible there’s a dynamic between them you haven’t  yet witnessed.  I was married 30 years before my H witnessed m mom rage at me.  She always found “private” moments to attack me.  Their relationship will be completely  different than mine was, but all that happens may not be sunshine and roses.  He of course is oblivious to how he is being used, as was I.

The fact that he holds her as an example of an ideal mother,  (really? Who can honestly believe that their parent has no flaws?), but never shares anything they talk about in their time together with you,  wow, I mean those two puzzle pieces just don’t fit together at all.  It sounds off, and maybe all is not as well as he wants to believe.

I go back to fear.  Like I said, I was terrified of my mom when I was running myself into the ground to please her.  Nobody and I mean nobody would have seen that I was afraid..  My H knew I was frustrated, but he could not have understood my terror, because he had never walked my path with her.

It was the things she said.  Anything to avoid that.

If fear is a factor for H, what he has to fear of her could be anything.  Hard to say.

To onlookers my relationship was th my mom would have looked perfectly normal.  It was anything but.  

[Methuen]

I read this and thought, "But what would happen? So she gets upset. So? She's his mom. I have no doubt that my mom will love me no matter what...

This made me smile.  Clearly you are not the child of a BPD  parent ( said with warmth affection and humour).  

Oh. Wait. He must not feel that? Then why does he insist he does?"

Denial is the greatest defense against the truth, if in the truth there lies fear.  Just my thinking out loud.  

A grown man kissing his mom on the mouth?  There’s got to be a hidden dynamic going on for him to be ok with that.  They do it around you.  Do they also do it in public, say for good byes at the funeral, or in a restaurant for example?  Or just in private with family?  I’m wondering about the diameter of the net cast for this boundary ( or not) of kissing on the mouth?

Even if I’m onto something with my fear theory, I don’t have a solution to offer that is different than everything you are already doing right now.

[pursuingJoy]

This made me smile.  Clearly you are not the child of a BPD  parent ( said with warmth affection and humour).

lollll guilty as charged. My dad is most likely NPD, different ballgame. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts. I learn something new every time.

A grown man kissing his mom on the mouth?  There’s got to be a hidden dynamic going on for him to be ok with that.  They do it around you.  Do they also do it in public, say for good byes at the funeral, or in a restaurant for example?  Or just in private with family?  I’m wondering about the diameter of the net cast for this boundary ( or not) of kissing on the mouth?

Mostly they do it at hello and goodbye, in the privacy of her home or her driveway. I think once they kissed in the cracker barrel parking lot, no one was around. Twice, they kissed in front of a neighbor. They don't do it in front of extended family or around groups.

I've never seen him kiss his 27 year old on the mouth. It's pretty rare (as in I've seen this maybe 3 times since I've known him) but H kissed his 11 year old daughter on the mouth the other day.

For me it was a progressive fear of the horrible things she would say to me.  Over time it compounded into a kind of hidden terror .  I was terrified of what she would say to hurt me, and the only way I thought I could manage was to keep trying harder to be a better daughter.  All the while she was projecting and raging at me.  

It almost sounds like there is a spiraling dynamic. Without the tools to interrupt it and stabilize, it gains momentum and builds on itself.

It’s not lost on me that your H doesn’t share conversations he has with her, with you EVER, or talk about his feelings.  I think it could be possible there’s a dynamic between them you haven’t  yet witnessed.

If he himself isn't ready to face her behavior, it makes sense that he paints it in a pretty light and doesn't share what's happening. I did the same thing when I covered for my exH when I talked to my family.

I was married 30 years before my H witnessed m mom rage at me. She always found “private” moments to attack me.

I hate that you carried it alone for so long.  Do I remember you saying that your H, in some ways, almost defended your mom? Because he didn't know?

The fact that he holds her as an example of an ideal mother,  (really? Who can honestly believe that their parent has no flaws?), but never shares anything they talk about in their time together with you,  wow, I mean those two puzzle pieces just don’t fit together at all.  It sounds off, and maybe all is not as well as he wants to believe.

This makes me wonder if I need to feel defensive, at all. I lowkey JADE when he does this, I say, "No parent is perfect." I wonder if I should drop it and just see it as him pushing me away and saying, "I'm not ready."

I go back to fear.  Like I said, I was terrified of my mom when I was running myself into the ground to please her.  Nobody and I mean nobody would have seen that I was afraid..  My H knew I was frustrated, but he could not have understood my terror, because he had never walked my path with her.

It was the things she said.  Anything to avoid that.

There are layers to BPD enmeshment that you're helping me understand. Thanks M.

[pursuingJoy]

    *I do not cook when SD23 visits
     *I walk out of the room when the weird hugging gets to me
     *I lock my bedroom door when I'm in it, and when H is in there with me
     *I buy a puzzle to help manage awkward social interactions with SD23
     *I put on headphones, or call family/friends to redirect myself when H/SD23 is too much
     *I put foods out of view that are not for SD23 consumption
     *If texts are so urgent that phones cannot be put away, then other activities will have to wait
 

great list! *takes notes*

I'm offering you the heads up as a courtesy to handle these boundaries before they reach me.
 

Listen. I LOVE this. Yes ma'am.

    *I will not respond to SD23 messages sent through you to me

Thank you for exposing me lnl. I need a similar boundary in my life. Next time he shares something she's mad about, I won't engage, and will ask that she contact me directly if she has something to share.
 

    *I will remind SD23 to check with me if visits are arranged without my input

"SD23 wants to visit next weekend, and I told her I didn't think it was a problem but that I needed to check with you first."

I'm ok as long as H says he needs to check with me. Them making plans and then informing me, and inviting me to join them is a dynamic I find frustrating. I hold my H fully accountable for his part in this. In fairness, we've both been inconsistent in our efforts with this - him doing it, me enforcing it.

    *I will ask BF to wait elsewhere if he arrives before SD23

I never asked, do y'all like him? Does he seem to like you?

Do you come in a pocket version? I could really use a portable advisor

he finally recognized that I wasn't trying to veto visits

Love that your H now sees this. Mine is here some days. Other days his old wiring takes over. Jumping to this conclusion of complete rejection is learned through relating with the BPD, right?

With BF gone, the texting and calling and talk about visits has reached code red. Last night I counted 21 times I heard H receiving texts from her. Even H was exasperated. He said to me, "Geez, SD23, get a cat."

One of the messages was about how SD23 felt the need to poop during a meeting.

Top level stuff.

ew. Also a good example of how boundaries are deconstructed in ways that seem small and unimportant.
 

She wants to come out over the holidays, which isn't going to happen, so I'm trying to keep her occupied.
 

I wonder why he feels compelled to keep her occupied?

She's feeling lonely because of the break-up and is understandably upset.
 

Self-soothing is a thing we need to foster in our kids. (I know you know this, just sharing your frustration.)

She says she wants to come here and tutor or teach guitar.
 

ummmmm no? I feel like I'm missing a chunk of important info, sorry if you've covered this. Has SD23 ever had her own place? I think she's living with BF right now. is she intentionally transient? I wonder what would happen if she got her own place instead of a cat?

It's like H is prepping me for the same thing I'm prepping him for, but in reverse.
 

oh my GOSH do I understand this lololol

we help them get on their feet in other ways and build a smaller house that works for us. I'm using this opportunity to really clarify our values --> so that boundaries are clear.
 

For the record I'm team Support-Them-In-Other-Ways-Build-The-Small-House.

There is a lot of pain and anguish behind this. SD23 lived with us for two and half summers and most of her 4-week breaks over the holidays, not to mention spring breaks and other extended holidays. It nearly ruined our marriage and lit up my nervous system like a Christmas tree. H and I are not addressing that era directly because it's so painful, instead we're tap dancing around it with hypotheticals.
 

Wow lnl I had no idea. This is a huge reason not to do it again. It's hard to understand why your H would even entertain the idea, knowing what you've been through.

And I wish I could say Hell No when he plants seeds about her living here for months. I think the degree of discord we went through has made me wary of engaging it unless there is a hard ask on the table.

I did land with a version of hell no, and I was surprised to learn that my squishiness was harder for H to deal with than the flat no. He seemed sad, but also relieved. I expected a blow up that never came.

To be honest, I never trusted that he would choose me. I said no, knowing I ran the risk of losing my marriage over, whether now, or later.

I think in some ways my no put me firmly in the position of persecutor, but I also know that that's what it takes sometimes to get out of the triangle.

Quick story, but there's a point, I promise. H has mentioned 2-3 times that he wants a ferret. His brother had one before he committed suicide, so there's an emotional thing attached to it. Two weeks ago, out of the blue, he got serious. We researched, found a breeder and went to see the kits.

Cute as the day is long. And I knew they smelled but lordamercy. And it's oil, so no matter what I used to wash my hands, it wouldn't. come. off.

I know me. The stink would cause anxiety I prefer not live with. I expressed my limitation to H and said I preferred not to get a ferret. He became angry and said that he'd "bent over backward for me and always had to give in. I gave a cold hard no to his mom and now the ferret. He was always the one putting in, why couldn't I even try." Etc.

He doesn't feel that his voice carries weight, and he resents me for not loving his mom, ultimately. We touched on addressing his feelings about the marriage and the matter of the ferret as two separate things - not the point of the story. I was checking in with me and something really intense was going on inside me. I was tripping over myself apologizing to him, crying rivers. The roar of shame I felt about accepting my limitation was almost deafening. I felt so incredibly inadequate as a wife, as a human being. What is wrong with me, that I can't be/do more?

I came across Brene Brown's Ted talk on shame and found a measure of peace in breaking down the pieces and understanding what was happening.

I wish our dynamic was strong enough to build the house we want AND say no to extended stays, but the truth is we are a blended family with dysfunction running through it.
 

YES. Because we have limitations, as individuals, and as families. Shame has often held me back from speaking up. I always felt inadequate, like I should do more, try harder. I've been unwilling/unable to accept my limitations as what they are - a part of me and my imperfect humanity. There's a version of radical acceptance that comes with embracing who you are.

[livednlearned]

Next time he shares something she's mad about, I won't engage, and will ask that she contact me directly if she has something to share.

Do you mean you'll ask him to ask her? Or you'll just tell him that she can discuss this with you directly?

You've also primed your H nicely by discussing the drama triangle if I remember correctly?

We may be past this one, when I think about it. SD23 interprets setting boundaries as an act of hostility. The more boundaries I asserted, the less overt she became about triangulating. The maneuvers that were more or less above-ground seem to have moved underground where they are trickier to address. Saying to H, "LnL is mad at me" was an overt way to triangulate. We are onto new maneuvers these days  

A while ago, talking about our blended family in general terms, I said "We don't all have to like each other, we just have to make it work." It was kind of freeing to say that out loud. I think we are doing better at making it work.

In fairness, we've both been inconsistent in our efforts with this - him doing it, me enforcing it.

Is that because sometimes you don't feel like making the effort? I'm wondering for myself if I am less irritated when I feel more safe. And when I'm feeling safe and grounded, this stuff doesn't seem so hard? Idk. Or, at least it feels more effortless to say what I want to say when I'm in a grounded place. I still sweat the small stuff because it's symbolic of power dynamics but it doesn't feel so hard to address it.

I never asked, do y'all like him? Does he seem to like you?

He's more socially awkward than SD23, struggles with pretty basic social norms, and is paranoid about things. SD23 broke up with him recently so he's not currently in the picture.

My issue wasn't really about liking/not liking him, it was the assumption that these two could come and go when they please, setting things up with H, who was expecting me to accommodate them both (BF briefly moved to another state and we were half way between SD23 and BF). BF would arrive several hours early and expect to come in and wait in the house. I work from home and let myself become a door mat 

Do you come in a pocket version? I could really use a portable advisor

  it would be nice to have some ear pieces and walkie talkies.

Jumping to this conclusion of complete rejection is learned through relating with the BPD, right?

With H, strong emotions ---> catastrophize ... and yes, I would attribute that to the black/white reality of growing up around BPD, or just emotionally stunted caregivers in general who can't help kids learn to regulate emotions. Except that H returns to baseline pretty quick. He's kind of allergic to expressing anger so it comes out jagged and pointy.

I wonder why he feels compelled to keep her occupied?

To appease her? I guess? Perhaps he believes if he is available for her then she won't dysregulate further.

Yesterday, a friend of mine who has had front row seats to SD23 shenanigans asked me if I knew what H got out of his stuff with SD23, like the daily rescue calls with SD23. I used to think H loves to feel needed. But now I'm not so sure. It might actually go deeper than that. He might feel the same degree of pain around abandoning someone in need as SD23 feels about being abandoned. Lately, he seems weary about being needed by SD23.

Does your H talks to MIL daily? If so, I'm curious if you have a guess as to what, if anything, he gets out of that?

Has SD23 ever had her own place? I think she's living with BF right now. is she intentionally transient? I wonder what would happen if she got her own place instead of a cat?

SD23 lives on her own in an apartment and lived with BF on and off for the last year. She's a teacher and has summers off. And during college, she had summers off, which is when she lived with us. Summers now  =   for me  

It's hard to understand why your H would even entertain the idea, knowing what you've been through

Hope springs eternal? He keeps commenting on how much more mature SD23 has become. She's becoming more functionally competent and maybe a bit more cunning, but I don't see the emotional maturity. She'll now say, "Dad I'm going through this crisis-of-the-moment and I'm doing xyz. I tried abc but xyz works better. I did the right thing by doing xyz, right?" And the difference will be between knitting or going for a walk. It still seems pretty needy and manipulative, especially if he just finished telling her he was going to be out with friends and not available for a few hours.

I was surprised to learn that my squishiness was harder for H to deal with than the flat no. He seemed sad, but also relieved. I expected a blow up that never came.

Huh. That's really interesting. Any thoughts on why he felt that way?

I never trusted that he would choose me. I said no, knowing I ran the risk of losing my marriage over, whether now, or later.

I think in some ways my no put me firmly in the position of persecutor, but I also know that that's what it takes sometimes to get out of the triangle.

Wow. That had to take a lot of courage. Thanks for sharing that, it's really really really helpful.

He became angry and said that he'd "bent over backward for me and always had to give in.

I remember reading somewhere that shame is a feeling someone else plants in you, it's an emotion that comes from outside. Maybe it was Brene Brown who wrote that? So if you feel it, often you can trace it to someone who is using it to get something.

This is interesting about your H -- the use of the word always. I'm guessing he doesn't always give in? I notice it's also a feature of codependence to become resentful for giving giving giving. I have to press my H to make sure he's truly agreeing and not just trying to please me. This is probably our biggest work in progress. I don't want to have to second-guess and I definitely don't want the dishonesty of not knowing what he genuinely believes and feels, especially if it's important.

There's a version of radical acceptance that comes with embracing who you are.

Amen.

[livednlearned]

For me it was a progressive fear of the horrible things she would say to me.  Over time it compounded into a kind of hidden terror

This explains something in my H, too. Thanks for putting this into words, Methuen. I don't think it's the adult version of H who is terrified, I think it's a much younger self. I sense it hidden deep down. It's almost like the things he is afraid of aren't even known to him. I don't know that he would be able to say what he's afraid of in setting a boundary, for example. Or why he tries to manage things so that nothing can go wrong.

[I Am Redeemed]

He became angry and said that he'd "bent over backward for me and always had to give in. I gave a cold hard no to his mom and now the ferret. He was always the one putting in, why couldn't I even try." Etc.

This sounds like the statement of a person who is running up against someone with boundaries for the first time in his life, and it makes him uncomfortable because he doesn't understand adult compromise. He only understands "giving in" because that's what he has been wired to do, and it may be causing some deep, boiling lava of resentment that he can't recognize or name.

*Edited to add:

The whole ferret thing was an overreaction, btw. And it obviously triggered something in you. Perhaps you feel like a big meanie for setting boundaries? I know I do. It's still hard to emotionally get on board with doing things that are best for me (or not dysfunctional) and having other people get upset, angry, or uncomfortable as a result.

[GaGrl]

The way my executive coach explained it to me was...

Shame is cultural. It is attached to the social rites, mores, expectations of the culture. We feel shame when we violate one of the cultural expectations. We are shamed by others when they chastise because they perceive we have violated their cultural expectations. Shame is external. Also, a "culture" can be as small as a family. Imagine the clash when cultures differ.

Guilt is personal. It is internal. We feel guilty when we violate our own values, expectations for our behavior, our authenticity.

Does that make sense?

* * * * *

ROTFL about the ferret! My sister had a ferret -- named Jose Ferret'. They are funny, lively, cute. They also have to be bathed every single day, or the musk smell will overtake the house. Fortunately, Jose enjoyed his bath in the laundry utility sink each day. They also like interesting and shiny objects, and they steal your stuff and create "treasure troves" all over the house -- behind furniture, in closets, inside your sofa.

Some boundaries you just gotta hold!

[Methuen]

I don't think it's the adult version of H who is terrified, I think it's a much younger self. I sense it hidden deep down. It's almost like the things he is afraid of aren't even known to him. I don't know that he would be able to say what he's afraid of in setting a boundary, for example. Or why he tries to manage things so that nothing can go wrong.

I think you nailed it.  As the child of a BPD I would support this.  I used to be confused and kinda feeling out of control about everything happening with my mom, and I didn't even understand where my fear or "terror" was coming from.  Everything was hidden, and yes, deep down.  I knew nothing about BPD.  All I "knew" was that I was a wreck, and something had to change. Eventually I figured out that something was going to have to be me.  So yes, I think it's entirely possible the things he is afraid of aren't even known to him.

He became angry and said that he'd "bent over backward for me and always had to give in. I gave a cold hard no to his mom and now the ferret. He was always the one putting in, why couldn't I even try." Etc.

This sounds like the statement of a person who is running up against someone with boundaries for the first time in his life, and it makes him uncomfortable because he doesn't understand adult compromise. He only understands "giving in" because that's what he has been wired to do, and it may be causing some deep, boiling lava of resentment that he can't recognize or name.

Wow.  This was really powerful for me to read.  I think I can apply this to some of the crises I have lived through with my mom.  Thanks for seeing this and explaining it IAR. Super helpful.

[livednlearned]

He became angry and said that he'd "bent over backward for me and always had to give in. I gave a cold hard no to his mom and now the ferret. He was always the one putting in, why couldn't I even try." Etc.

Also, gotta just say it.

This is kitchen sinking 

[I Am Redeemed]

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