Successful boundary setting with MIL Part 6

[pursuingJoy]

*mod note: This thread was split from this discussion:https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=346241.0


Had to google kitchen sinking ...wow. Learn something new every day.

I'm pretty frustrated. He informed me last night he is getting a ferret. He insists he will take care of it and thinks he can keep the smell down. He keeps pushing articles and insisting I call this breeder who can 'answer all of my questions.' (lolllll like I haven't been researching fervently since he mentioned this for the first time two weeks ago) He says 'if it doesn't work out I'll find a home for it.' I accept that I have trust issues, but I believe he will simply continue to find reasons to keep it.

my home is my safe space.  Admittedly, I like to control what I allow in my space.

I asked him to slow down and listen, and at the very least, verbalize that he cares about how I feel. He got mad and said he wasn't a mean, manipulating, game player.

wth?

How is it he can be so empathetic and caring towards his dysregulating mother and I get nothing.

This also triggers other fears I've had about him moving his mom in without my  consent. This is exactly how it would happen.

H is pretty diligent with animals, so I know there's a chance it won't stink up the house, but the way he is going about this is really hurtful.

the Jose Ferret' thing did make me laugh which I needed. I HATE how powerless I feel right now. Tomorrow, I will process my way out of this victim mentality and consider what options I do have but for now I'm pretty hurt.

[Methuen]

I'm pretty frustrated. He informed me last night he is getting a ferret.

And you're only frustrated?  

Bosses inform underlings.  Political leaders inform their underlings.  Generals inform their underlings.

This sounds like a power play based on old school thinking about gender roles.  It also sounds like he has become quite emotional about this.

I'm going to go out on a limb, as the daughter of a BPD mother.

Question:  did he know in advance you didn't want a ferret?

If yes, I think it's possible he's getting coaching from his mom.  The ferret could become her wedge issue.  If H knew you didn't want a ferret, he may well have shared this with his mom (especially if he was disappointed or frustrated), because he probably shares almost everything with her right?

With my uBPD mom, when she is dysregulating, there are winners, and losers.  When her emotional needs weren't being met, she would feel hurt.  When she is hurt, all she can do is strike back.  She becomes vengeful.  Mean.  Out of control.

For the sake of argument, let's pretend H shared the ferret issue with his mother.  From her perspective, this information is power, because now she can use that information to triangulate her GC son against you.  This is exactly how BPD's use personal information to meet their needs, even if it hurts us.

If I place myself in your H's situation, these are the things my mother could have/would have  said to me:
"How dare she!
You never get your way!
Just tell her you're getting the ferret!"

Especially the last one.  I can actually hear her saying it!  This kind of thing is exactly the drama which "fed" my mother when she was dysregulating.  It gives the BPD a sense of power.  But they're using their emotional brain, not their rational one.

As you know, in the game of winners/losers, there is no win/win where BPD is involved when emotions are in the red zone.

PJ, I don't know your H, so I'm going to throw some suggestions out, but they may or may not work or have value in your situation.

1) De-escalate.
There needs to be a cool down period.  Slow things down.  Could both of you take a "time out" on the ferret issue?  My premise here, is that he won't come home with the ferret tomorrow.  If he did, that changes everything.   Right now, his emotions are running high, and possibly even being "fed" by MIL  (thinking of my own mom), so by "slowing things down" and both of you taking some time to think this through, I'm hoping it gives his emotional brain time to cool down, and his rational brain to take over.  He's not thinking clearly right now PJ.  That's just my perspective.  Buy time. Everything that follows below, comes after a de-escalation period, if he's still holding this heavy handed power play stance.
2) Suggest this problem be brought to the marriage counsellor.
3) Consult with MC or T on your own
4) Can we brainstorm a pet that we can BOTH be excited about?  
5) Talk about values.  What values do you share?  Once the common ground is discussed, work an angle towards how BOTH of your needs could be met, with regards to getting a pet.
6) I just thought of this - do you even want a pet of any kind?
7) Propose a different pet that he might like.  Give him another option he may have expressed interest in, in the past.  

The next idea I don't like.  It's kind of my idea of last resort, if he digs in his heels (I still have strong feelings that MIL is behind this hard line on the ferret).  
- the ferret lives in his office, and does not go into living areas of the house which you use.  The ferret has it's own space, which is not your space.  Since the ferret is his bird, and you abhor ferrets, and he is determined to have the very pet you most abhor, then it can live in a room where only he goes.  Or something like that.  This is at least a negotiation.  You are giving something.   However, as you know, both he and the ferret will push the boundaries of a restricted space.  A much healthier option is to agree on a pet that you are both excited about.

After that, it gets into dangerous marital territory.

I asked him to slow down and listen, and at the very least, verbalize that he cares about how I feel. He got mad and said he wasn't a mean, manipulating, game player.

Huh.  This is interesting.  Kinda sounds like he feels like a mean, manipulating, game player.  

Looking back at it after the fact, is there anything you could have said/done differently in that moment when you asked him to slow down? ...for the next time this happens...?

How is it he can be so empathetic and caring towards his dysregulating mother and I get nothing.

...because MIL planted these ideas in his head and put him up to this?  And he's actually afraid of her?  And he's dreadfully confused because he's being town in half by two women he loves?  But he's confused about what love is because he was raised by a BPD?  And he has poor boundaries himself?  And...does he know how to negotiate?  Give and take?  Did he learn those skills?

My mind is spinning.

This also triggers other fears I've had about him moving his mom in without my  consent. This is exactly how it would happen.

 My heart is beating faster for you PJ.  I have a lump in my throat.  I understand why you are triggered.

the way he is going about this is really hurtful.

How typical of him is this behavior PJ?  Has this kind of power play happened in your marriage before?

I don't play poker, and I've never bet a cent in my life, but I would put money on it that words of encouragement from MIL could be behind this.  Just my experience with BPD mom.

Try to think of a way "to slow things down", "take some time before making a decision", to give him a chance to come back to his senses, and hopefully remember to whom he is married.  

I HATE how powerless I feel right now.

I don't blame you.  His "informing you" about acquiring the pet he knows you don't want, isn't how decisions get made in a healthy way.

The best way I can think of to take back the power is to disengage from talking about the ferret (cool down), while maintaining your boundaries, and restating your values if it's appropriate.

Tomorrow, I will process my way out of this victim mentality and consider what options I do have but for now I'm pretty hurt.

Good idea. A time-out for self can also be a time-out for H.  It may take more than a day.  Also, you have the right to feel hurt here.

PS.  By now, I believe that H must be "feeling" something is wrong in the state of Rome.  He's in turmoil.  He's married to you.  But his mom causes a lot of chaos in his personal life.  Just the fact that he said he's not a mean manipulating game player suggests he's feeling that, but needing to deny it because that's one H of a scary thing.

 Breathe: long deep and slowly. Repeat as much as needed.

[Methuen]

PS.  I KNOW you know this PJ, but this is just a reminder, since emotions are so raw right now. 

I would not ask H if mother is encouraging him to get a ferret.  His impulse would be to deny it if she was.  It would also escalate.  Guaranteed.  If she is behind this, he has to figure it out on his own. And maybe she's not behind it.  I might be dead wrong.  Maybe it's just him wanting a ferret.

I was just sharing that theory to perhaps throw another perspective on the whole event. 

Wishing you calm, and H calm, and H that reflects on all this.

[Methuen]

Last thought:

I think you said H mentioned his brother had a ferret.  Do I have that right?  And his brother committed suicide right?

Is there anything you can think of that might help H feel close to his brother, other than owning a ferret?

Just a thought...

[pursuingJoy]

M, your advice to slow down has already been helpful. I'll write more later, but already this am I suggested that he at the very least hold off until after his week long beach trip with his mom coming up in a few weeks. Part of his argument is that I'll never have to touch it or take care of it, so implied in my suggestion is the option of taking it with him to the beach - not gonna lie, kind of enjoying the thought of my MIL trapped in the car for four hours with that smell, because if she is behind any of this, karma, am I right?

He will most likely counter that his neighbor friend could come take care of it. Considering this guy, that's an easy no. I work from home and I don't want this guy in my house every day when my H isn't here.

Play smart, not hard.

[formflier]

PJ

I think you missed the big opportunity to say YES! and I believe in you!  

A very powerful thing to say to any man, especially a disordered one (on some level) and one that has likely been henpecked and controlled by his Mom (and potentially others) for most of his life.

Remember, an "insurgent" is often doing things that are unexpected.

He said "If it doesn't work out, he will get rid of it."    The trick is to define "work out" and let him figure that out.

Ferret is in "his space".  In the common space and PJs space, you should be blissfully unaware of a "musky" animal being anywhere else in the house.

Imagine for a minute...

Of course the ferret would go with him and Mom to the beach.  I mean..it's his ferret, how could Mom possibly say no?  (come on...rawr...)  

Oh my, I'm curious why MIL wouldn't want a ferret to go on vacation with you, especially knowing it's such a big deal to you.

Tell you what babe...get your ferret and take the ferret on the trip and if MIL won't go I can move around some of my plans.  Won't be easy but your trip is worth it to me.

Wow...I think that would pass through insurgency and qualify as gangsta...

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

Last thought:

I think you said H mentioned his brother had a ferret.  Do I have that right?  And his brother committed suicide right?

Is there anything you can think of that might help H feel close to his brother, other than owning a ferret?

Just a thought...

Well, my sister had a ferret, and she died of cancer at age 32, and I have never felt the need to get a ferret.

Just wondering...what time of year did H's brother die by suicide? Anniversaries are powerful emotional triggers.

[livednlearned]

not gonna lie, kind of enjoying the thought of my MIL trapped in the car for four hours with that smell, because if she is behind any of this, karma, am I right?

Just wondering...what time of year did H's brother die by suicide? Anniversaries are powerful emotional triggers.

I was wondering that too.

Methuen's insight into the BPD dynamics feels very on the nose, too.

Doesn't seem like it's just about a ferret.

If there are BPD dynamics and wedge shenanigans, then FF's suggestion to have him take the ferret with him to the beach with MIL are interesting. Another suggestion is to see if you can probe how MIL feels about the ferret, and have her become the ferret sitter if/when H travels.

MIL will want you to the feel the way you're feeling so the challenge is how to hold steady and let some of the natural consequences flow back over MIL so she stops fueling things with H.

Not easy!

[pursuingJoy]

GaGrl, brother passed away first week of August, so I think you're on the money.

It's not about the ferret. There is something deeper going on for him. He doesn't impose decisions like this. It's just not how we work. We don't always agree but there's a version of compromise that we usually reach that he is completely unwilling to give on.

It's no longer about the ferret for me either. I am really hurt by his dismissal. I made the mistake of expressing that to him and got a blank stare. He has a vengeful streak. I absolutely believe that this is payback for me saying no to his mom. Beginning of August is also when he wanted her to come visit for a few days and I said no to overnights. This caused him to turn around and console her with a promise of a beach trip, and he had to exact revenge on me. I know that's strong language, but when I say vengeful, I mean it. I've seen it play out before with other people and our kids.

I wonder sometimes if he acts out at me because he can't get mad at her. This is a power play, no doubt. I'm still holding out hope that I can at least delay the purchase enough that this blows over. I also recognize that realistically I might have to go along with the ferret and play the long game.

MIL is paying for the beach trip, so if she doesn't go, he doesn't go. She's most likely taking her dog with her - they'll probably say there's no space in the car for a huge ferret cage, the condo allows dogs but not ferrets, blah blah blah

He doesn't have an office or air conditioned garage where we can keep the cage. We have an open den area downstairs where he said he would keep it.

ff I like your nonchalant approach. I am emotional so I'm not sure I can pull it off effectively but I'll do my darndest. If nothing else, I can leave it at, "I'm sure you'll think of something" and maintain the boundary that I'm not caring for it when they go the beach.

The "if it doesn't work out" thing feels like a trap, to be honest. It will work out for him. When it doesn't work out for me, I become the bad guy again. So I'm left with the choice of living with a ferret and stink I don't want, or placing myself yet again in the position of persecutor.

Did my H just triangulate a ferret? ok that's funny guys.

[pursuingJoy]

MIL will want you to the feel the way you're feeling so the challenge is how to hold steady and let some of the natural consequences flow back over MIL so she stops fueling things with H.

THIS. I have got to hold steady. They're bullying. I'm going to work on saying less, slow everything down as much as possible, hold him to his word, and find creative ways of allowing natural consequences come back to H and MIL.  

[GaGrl]

I asked about anniversaries because I have had them sneak up on me before I realized I was grieving.

My grandfather, then my sister, then my father all died in the month of August. Two of those deaths were premature/far too young cancer deaths and were traumatic to the family and family system. I prepare myself now, do some proactive grieving, then go about living a bit more gently for the month.

If your H cannot articulate his emotions or trauma, his reactions could be displaced -- i.e. the ferret.

[formflier]

I also think it's not a coincidence about timing.

GaGrl, brother passed away first week of August, so I think you're on the money.

It's not about the ferret. There is something deeper going on for him. He doesn't impose decisions like this. It's just not how we work. We don't always agree but there's a version of compromise that we usually reach that he is completely unwilling to give on.

It's no longer about the ferret for me either. I am really hurt by his dismissal. I made the mistake of expressing that to him and got a blank stare. He has a vengeful streak. I absolutely believe that this is payback for me saying no to his mom.
 

I do agree it's NOT about the ferret and I also just as strongly DON'T think it's about MIL...or at most she is tangentially related.

THIS IS ABOUT HIM.

If we are going to move forward with the theory that HE is not doing well with the anniversary, then I think it is thinking in the wrong direction to attribute this to MIL.

It is precisely because I think the dynamic is between you and he that is primary that I was suggesting you say YES to him about the ferret.  Then of course there are some very minor oh by the ways for him to solve about ferret...(that's his problem..not you...you are there hero saying yes).

Stick with me on the thinking...

I think you made a STRATEGIC mistake by saying no to overnights..

Same thing...you say yes and some very minor oh by the ways to handle...like PJ wanting to pee by herself, etc etc.  

We all know that MIL isn't going to handle those in any healthy way and so she will say NO to the visit and PJ is saying yes.

Then...remember H sitting there not being able to say anything when challenged about MIL not reaching out...(the story from counseling)

Yes he will still "make PJ out to be the problem" from time to time, but you will make it much much harder for him to do that, and likely will catch him/them doing it in completely ridiculous ways...and then he will have some maturing or running..or something to do.

Remember...MIL..no change.

Hubby..change is on the menu.

PJ take your focus off MIL.  Put it more on hubby. 

Play chess...play the long game.

Best,

FF

[pursuingJoy]

We talked this weekend. My emotions were responsibly managed. He insists that it isn't a big deal and he's getting a ferret anyway. I explain that we haven't ever made decisions this way and this feels like a pretty big middle finger. He says sorry he doesn't mean it that way.

I asked when he would be getting it, and he said, "Oh, I will have to wait until after the beach trip, otherwise I'd have to find someone who could take it. The condo won't allow animals."

It is precisely because I think the dynamic is between you and he that is primary that I was suggesting you say YES to him about the ferret.  Then of course there are some very minor oh by the ways for him to solve about ferret...(that's his problem..not you...you are there hero saying yes).

Minor to you, perhaps. Not to me.

And part of my issue is that the enmeshment makes it nearly impossible to tell when it's just about me and him. On the surface, it might look like this is just about him, but my gut is telling me differently.

I think you made a STRATEGIC mistake by saying no to overnights..

I disagree.

We all know that MIL isn't going to handle those in any healthy way and so she will say NO to the visit and PJ is saying yes.

MIL would not only say yes to overnights and actually come, she would move in with us tomorrow if she could.

Hubby..change is on the menu.

Change may be coming but not the way I thought it might. Over the weekend he made a point of carrying a big load of laundry downstairs to wash it. Later, I was downstairs so I thought I'd do my part and put it in the dryer. Every single item was his. He only washed his clothes.

Three or four times in the past month he's finished the last of the creamer and the coffee, something he has never done in the almost 7 years we've been married.

These might sound silly, but both examples are very out of character for him. He's always been very adamant about not doing that, insisting that it would be selfish.  (I won't mention either of these to him, they're not a big deal to me, but they are out of character.)

Like many raised by BPD parents, he believes 'selfish' (to include individuation) is wrong, the most horrible human trait. If he calls you selfish, it's a huge insult. These recent unabashed displays of what he considers 'selfish' behavior are curious.

I'm not gonna lie, I don't think it's all bad. We are all unique individual creatures who sometimes need to exercise our will, even in relationship with others. He's never stood up to his mom because it's "selfish." Maybe in exercising this "selfishness" with me, he'll be more likely to do it with his mom? Maybe he feels compelled to do it with me because she renders him powerless?

On the other hand, while I can be happy that he's exploring this side of himself and feeling stronger, finishing the last of the coffee is one thing, forcing a ferret on our entire family is another thing altogether. He hasn't even brought it up with my kids, and he said he didn't feel he needed to.

I'm extremely nervous and feel some urgency to write down, on paper, my boundaries about his mom moving in. H loses a sense of reality sometimes. Even though he's very much an auditory learner, he'll 'forget' things I've said, or he'll hear what he wants to in order to justify his actions. I genuinely fear that given enough pressure from MIL, he will move her in to our house without my consent, and that all of this is gearing up to do just that. I'm concerned that this ferret thing was just testing the water to see how I'd react. If he does, I will quit paying the mortgage, I will move out of our bedroom, and I will talk to a divorce attorney.

Boundaries need to be clearly communicated. I have communicated them orally, numerous times. For about three years I thought we were on the same page, then I found out he was still talking to his mom about moving in. So my fears aren't unfounded.

Because he has a nasty little habit of blaming me for miscommunicating, I've started to write things down in emails or texts when I have something important to communicate. It doesn't mean he won't go ahead and do what he wants, but at least he can't tell me I "didn't communicate well enough."

[formflier]

Minor to you, perhaps. Not to me.
 
MIL would not only say yes to overnights and actually come, she would move in with us tomorrow if she could.
 

Hey... there was some "jest" that got lost in my words.

I get it that it's not minor to you, yet I'm suggesting you present it to hubby as "minor" and allow him to struggle with why it's so hard.

That's for ferret and for MIL. 

So...here is the thing if getting a ferret is not a big deal, then why on earth would a condo not allow them, certainly since it's so "minor" they wouldn't mind in the least..right?

Then...you assume the stance of befuddlement and curiosity.  Oh...so getting a ferret is or isn't a big deal?  If it's a big deal at the condo, how come it isn't a big deal here?

Let him struggle with it...not you.  You are saying "yes" as long as these minor..insignificant things are properly handled.


Now..switch to overnights.

Again..I get it that it's not minor to you.  Yet you are saying yes..as long as a couple of minor..easy things are handled, like me being able to pee in private in my own home.  A couple other "small" boundary items. 

Of course clear communications matters so you would want to give MIL a chance to apologize for the past community peeing and other things as well as memorialize agreements around this going forward.

We all know this isn't going to happen, which leaves MIL saying NO and you saying yes.

Do you get the "strategic" positioning here? 

And since you and hubby are in counseling, is there any...any chance whatsoever that any licensed mental health professional would ever suggest there is a hint of anything wrong with wanting to pee in private in your own home?

So...all of the "action items" for this revolve around hubby and MIL...and let them sort this out.

Same for the ferret.  Let hubby figure out how to have animal in home so where it's not smelled or experienced by you. 

Again...is there any chance that any responsible counselor is going to suggest that a partner in a marriage be expected to smell and experience on a 24/7 basis an animal like this?

Again..it's back in his lap.

When is your next counseling appointment?

I'm going to switch gears here a bit because both of you (hubby and you) are digging in your heals on this and it's not going down a good path.

So..what happens if he brings the animal in over your "no" AND you smell it..etc etc. 

Do you take it out of the house over his "no"?  Is there any difference?

He "imposes" on you and you "impose" on him.

One of the "lines" that has been effective in my marriage is

"FFw...I want to make sure I understand your intent.  Are you "proposing" a compromise or "imposing" a solution?"

And then variations on this.

PJ

There is a heavy burden upon YOU because you are the more emotionally healthy of the two in this marriage.   That's not fair, but I assure you "it is".

Can you reflect back my advice and the "why" I'm suggesting you be a "yes"?  (not saying you should agree...I don't think you see my POV)

Best,

FF

[formflier]

  He insists that it isn't a big deal and he's getting a ferret anyway. I explain that we haven't ever made decisions this way and this feels like a pretty big middle finger. He says sorry he doesn't mean it that way.
 

Did you follow up with

Isn't a big deal to who?

Does he agree or disagree that this is a new style of decision making?

How did he mean you to take it?

Did he get asked these questions and did he answer them...very important to not "infer" meanings here.

Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

part of my issue is that the enmeshment makes it nearly impossible to tell when it's just about me and him. On the surface, it might look like this is just about him, but my gut is telling me differently.

This is a bit of a stretch but something about the dynamic you describe reminds me of parental alienation. Even if MIL isn't actively fueling a coalition, H may be primed to revert to a triangulation mindset when the conditions are right. He seems kinda regressed in the way he's dealing with difference and no matter what's causing it, he's the one to address.

I know this behavior is hurtful. I would be in full-blown victim mindset.

It's a risky and tough move depending on where you're at emotionally, but I sense that offering an olive leaf and an invitation to repair might actually upset the dynamic enough to slow this ferret purchase down. Especially as H goes into his trip with MIL. "PJ isn't saying that, mom. She apologized to me and we talked to the vet together. She's focused on how I'm feeling about this and how it helps me feel connected to brother. I'm not talking about this anymore."

This approach is validation on steroids. It doesn't rob you of your truth. You get to have that.

It focuses on where the energy is coming from and why.

He probably spends an inordinate amount of time trying to address the needs of the significant women in his life and resentment has built. pwBPD don't really see the person, so he may have an exaggerated need to be seen/heard and it's presenting in this way. You end route him by giving him what he is more genuinely seeking, which is more fulfilling and basic than what the ferret will provide.

When he's back to baseline and not fighting so much, ideally there will be more room for the natural give-and-take of making such a big decision.

[formflier]

It's a risky and tough move depending on where you're at emotionally, but I sense that offering an olive leaf and an invitation to repair might actually upset the dynamic enough to slow this ferret purchase down. 

Another way of saying "insurgency" or "play a different chess game".

None of this is fair or easy...or obvious...or without risk.

Best,

FF

[Methuen]

 MIL would not only say yes to overnights and actually come, she would move in with us tomorrow if she could.

This would be my mom  too.  I think we have to be careful what kind of "mind games" or strategy games we insist are right for someone else, because someone else may have to live with the consequences if the strategy doesn't go the way we expect it to.  Not all strategy games go as we hope right?  Sometimes the unexpected happens.  Furthermore, while some people excel at "strategy" games and might even enjoy the "sport" of it, not all of us are built to play that game.

Change may be coming but not the way I thought it might. Over the weekend he made a point of carrying a big load of laundry downstairs to wash it. Later, I was downstairs so I thought I'd do my part and put it in the dryer. Every single item was his. He only washed his clothes. Three or four times in the past month he's finished the last of the creamer and the coffee, something he has never done in the almost 7 years we've been married.

 So this is also the kind of spiteful and vindictive behavior my mother would resort to when she is dysregulating.  I always found it emotionally immature, almost child-like.  

So IMHO, a pwBPD can be treating us badly to push us away.  It could be a kind of a test of how much we "love them".  It's distorted of course, and probably doesn't even apply here.

So, for a solution, an olive branch could work.  But perhaps not necessarily one about either the ferret or the MIL o/n visits.  Could there be any other possibility for an olive branch, such as something else from the past that he has expressed interest in, or...alternatively...

You: "hey honey, things have been kind of stressful lately.  How about the two of us get away for a couple of nights and relax?"  

I kind of get where FF is coming from with the olive branch concept, because when my uBPD mom got in one of her tempers, I think it probably always took either my dad or myself to offer the olive branch which would kind of open up a lane for her to find a way out of being difficult.  By us offering her the olive branch, she was able to save face (since she was never in the wrong ). There are probably several ways out of this PJ, and perhaps just maybe one of them is giving him a means to save face.  But I don't necessarily think the olive branch has to be the ferret. It could be something else.  I trust you have your own reasons why you can't live with a ferret.  I have an animal or two I would never have in my house either.  It's gonna be more likely that a snowball freezes in H_ _ _ . In a healthy relationship, we shouldn't have to give up who we are, give in on every major area of conflict, and give up on things that help make us feel safe.  

Like many raised by BPD parents, he believes 'selfish' (to include individuation) is wrong, the most horrible human trait. If he calls you selfish, it's a huge insult. These recent unabashed displays of what he considers 'selfish' behavior are curious.

Ah, yes curious.  I wonder, does selfish to him mean disagreeing with him, or not supporting him in what he wants, ...?  Or was there usually room (before the ferret and MIL) for you to think or want things that are different from him?  Inotherwords, in "normal" times, was there room for negotiation, or give and take to solve problems?

He's never stood up to his mom because it's "selfish."

Yep, and no one should underestimate the absolute power her words would have on him. Manipulation at its finest, or, just her way of having her needs met.

Maybe he feels compelled to do it with me because she renders him powerless?

Makes sense

He hasn't even brought it up with my kids, and he said he didn't feel he needed to.

Wow.  He's gotta be just churning inside PJ to be saying these things.  

What if after he said something like that, you said "Gee honey, it really makes me sad to hear you say that.  I feel that since we all live in the same house, everybody's thoughts and feelings are important, so we disagree on that, but I want to remind you how much I love you and how much we mean to each other."  Alternatively, skip the I Statement and go straight to SET.

Can you think of a "safe" olive branch which you could offer as an alternative, that he might be very interested in?  This way you are holding true to your own values, and still feeling safe (thinking of myself and how 1 or two critters would make me feel unsafe in my own home), but also offering him a way out at the same time?

I'm extremely nervous and feel some urgency to write down, on paper, my boundaries about his mom moving in. H loses a sense of reality sometimes. Even though he's very much an auditory learner, he'll 'forget' things I've said, or he'll hear what he wants to in order to justify his actions. I genuinely fear that given enough pressure from MIL, he will move her in to our house without my consent, and that all of this is gearing up to do just that.

 I don't know about you PJ, but for me, sometimes when I write things down, it's cathartic, and a good problem solving tool to "figure things out".  It's the physical act of getting ink on the paper that makes new ideas flow for me, or thoughts to actually "connect".  So when you mention writing things down, perhaps it doesn't even have to be for H, but it could be for you ...?  Just thinking out loud. Giving that to him would probably just escalate.  To address the second part, when you say H "forgets" things you've said, is that something that can happen anytime, or just when he's distracted, or maybe "heated"?  As you know, when they're dysregulating, they're probably not going to process anything you have to say.

Boundaries need to be clearly communicated. I have communicated them orally, numerous times. For about three years I thought we were on the same page, then I found out he was still talking to his mom about moving in. So my fears aren't unfounded.

Right.  Trust issues for sure.

I had a T recommend to me a few years ago to offer my mom something of mine (which she really liked) to keep temporarily while we travelled across an ocean for 3 weeks (to address her sense of abandonment and her pattern of dysregulation every time we went on even a short road trip).  Apparently the physical connection to something which belongs to the emotional caretaker soothes them.  It worked for my mom.  I've done this on every subsequent trip we've taken with success. She's never turned down the offer.  Anything you can think of that H might like that could help him feel connected to his lost brother, other than the ferret?  Again, just thinking out loud.

I feel like I've rambled a bit and jumped around with different thoughts.  I'll stop now!

[formflier]

pwBPD can seem quite "wiley" with their schemes, yet in reality they are likely not thinking them through.  Pure emotion (that they don't understand) is burning bright.  So, they are barely thinking about the next step...vice 2 or 3 steps down the road.

That's the advantage of "olive branch" or "insurgency" or "distraction" (whatever you want to call it).  They are reacting to you, instead of you reacting to them...or instead of you sitting around experiencing "fear" that they will (insert thing you don't want them to do).

Now...you are absolutely right that it's unlikely they will respond "exactly" as you wish them to.  The point is not exactly what they do it's that they are reacting to you...


Which means you do, they react...you observe...you act, they react.

You understand your "dealbreakers" and so your effort is to nudge them away and also to nudge them in ways a counselor can use (a particular blessing PJ has) to "make points" or "nudge" him in a healthier direction.

Anyway...yes this can be exhausting, but letting a pwBPD that likes to "plot" sit around and build steam...uninterrupted, is not a good plan.

Here is the thing...letting a pwBPD maneuver uninterrupted is a good plan to get purely in a power struggle.  Tit for tat.

He moves ferret in...PJ moves ferret out.  After all, he didn't need to ask to move it in, so would PJ need to ask to move it out?

Anyone think this will "de-escalate" or "escalate".


My lesson...be deliberate about building yourself room to maneuver.  

Best,

FF

[pursuingJoy]

Even if MIL isn't actively fueling a coalition, H may be primed to revert to a triangulation mindset when the conditions are right.

I keep coming back to this. I can't fully verbalize yet why it rings true, it just does. He's learned some funky ways of relating from MIL.

was there usually room (before the ferret and MIL) for you to think or want things that are different from him?  Inotherwords, in "normal" times, was there room for negotiation, or give and take to solve problems?

Since the beginning, we've negotiated well on everything, except his mom. He's been a different person since the conflict with his mom last year.

I pushed another conversation last night. More than getting a ferret or not, I've been hurt about the cold way he communicated. He's never done that before. I shared how I felt, and he was angry, but he listened and apologized. I had to push a bit but he finally opened up about why he wants one so badly: he shares everything he owns with others and he just wants something for himself. (He's paid off 30,000 in debt over the past 5 years and spends hardly any money on himself.) I asked why he didn't share any of that before, he said it's really hard for him to voice what he wants and why. I thanked him for sharing and told him that I care about what he wants, and I'll support him. He seemed surprised and went from being really upset to really calm.

Never mentioned his brother once. He mentioned his mom five or six times. I feel like MIL is always with us.

Until last night I felt bullied. I still don't want a ferret, but I don't feel like I've violated a boundary or value by working with him. The boundary he crossed was disrespecting me and my voice in our home, and I feel that I've enforced what is most important to me.

Wish me luck on the ferret stench

This really should have been a new thread on the Bettering board. Thanks for your patience and for listening and just being here, all. The mommy-son beach trip is next week. I'll keep you posted on how that goes.

[formflier]

Solid work. 

At some point raise the issue of smell and care, ask him about his expectations.

OBTW, I've done just about exactly the same thing with animals in my house/relationship. 

My wife is a pet person...I'm am as well, just not nearly as much.

So...this issue has come up a couple times.  Think about how YOU felt in the conversations.

How about decisions you made about tone of voice, volume, body language.

Perhaps you realize things looking back, but they weren't decisions at the time.

Good work!

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

The pet thing is real.

My mom lived in our retirement house for three years before we  actually retired and moved in. She has a 14 year old cat for whom I have no use whatsoever. I have had cats over the years. This one is not a nice cat. I have dogs, one with a high prey instinct that wants to eat the cat.

The cat lives in mom's suite. I do not clean kitty litter. My dogs are not allowed in the suite. We co-exist peacefully, so far.

[pursuingJoy]

Your mom is fully responsible for the cat? Does she ask you to help?

[livednlearned]

He mentioned his mom five or six times. I feel like MIL is always with us.

In the context of getting a ferret?

I'm curious how he worked her into a conversation over this, if you feel comfortable sharing.

[I Am Redeemed]

I think you did well at getting to the bottom of his strong feelings and also communicating how his behavior made you feel.   

I am also curious how MIL came up in this conversation.

Does it have anything to do with him "sharing everything he owns"?

Maybe he can't pinpoint that connection yet, but I would guess that he has trouble voicing what he wants because he has not been given the freedom to have his own feelings apart from his mother.

[formflier]

Maybe he can't pinpoint that connection yet, but I would guess that he has trouble voicing what he wants because he has not been given the freedom to have his own feelings apart from his mother.

I've been turning this turn of events over in my head for a bit and I think I might be guessing the same as IAR.

My theory, concocted while driving all over the place running errands, is that somehow whenever he feels he really wants sometime and MIL (and maybe others) have tried to talk him out of it in not a very nice way, perhaps tried to say he was silly for wanting it or something.

So...he builds this thing up in his head and assumes that PJ will do the same, so he assumes the stance of "ramming" it through, without ever giving PJ a chance.

I think this is something to follow up on a time or two.  Let's say he is enjoying the ferret and says something to that effect, PJ can express appreciation for "being let inside" his feelings (or something like that)

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

Your mom is fully responsible for the cat? Does she ask you to help?

Mom has a caregiver/helper who comes in three times a week to help with chores, drive her to medical appointments, etc. She helps with the cat. Mom cleans the litter box and feeds the cat. The most I've done is buy supplies at PetSmart.

I really don't like this cat. She appeared one day, my dad gave her tuna, and that was that. And she was pregnant.

[pursuingJoy]

I am also curious how MIL came up in this conversation.
 

When he brought her up it was always in the context of "I've had to give up time with her." I let this slip the first 3-4 times, then I asked, "But you do remember what occurred first, and led up to that decision, right?" He waved his hand and said, "Oh I don't want to drag all of that out again." No I don't suppose you do.

There was one point where he was talking about people that drain him, and I got the sense he was going to mention his mom, but he stopped himself. I know she's a lot, y'all. I don't know how he's keeping up.

I was reading the first part of When He's Married to Mom by Kenneth Adams. It's deeper than just not having the ability to choose. Adams talks about the disloyalty bond. "In his unconscious - and sometimes conscious - mind, a mother enmeshed man is representing his mother's interests while his own have become secondary. If he does something he thinks she wouldn't like, he feels disloyal to her. If he "gets serious" about a woman, suddenly, without understanding why, he is overwhelmed with feelings of fear, anxiety and guilt." Adams says later that proximity to the mother doesn't matter. Some men are crippled by this enmeshment even after their mothers have passed away.

His mom is absolutely the type to ask, "Why would pj say/do that/not let you have that?" My H feels compelled to 'stand up to me' to please her.

If you met him, he would come across as a confident, self-assured person but his aren't the actions of a confident man at peace with himself. He pushed way too hard, too fast, because he was afraid of voicing his needs, and he was afraid of being turned down. When I resisted, he pushed harder, demeaned, dismissed, and got manipulative.

This realization is important because he could well use this technique to bully me again. Even if he was raised by a BPD mother who conditioned him, I don't need to feel guilty or bad about saying no, or always giving in just so that he can feel some agency. The fact that he feels fearful and anxious is ultimately his responsibility to address, not mine to accommodate.

So I have an everpresent BPD MIL and a ferret I don't want. Yay for me. BPD and enmeshment makes a mess, y'all.

I really don't like this cat.

I remembered your mom needed help so I was curious. Soo glad you've set this boundary because when you say you don't like the cat, I feel the sentiment in my gut. I so get it. I'm very particular about animals. I've had a dog since 2011. Took me about a year of thinking about it, researching her breed, then meeting her to assess her personality to convince me to get her. She's a really chill, fun dog.

I'd struggle all the more if the cat was mean. Ugh.

[GaGrl]

I'd struggle all the more if the cat was mean. Ugh.

It's not that I dislike cats. It's really this one in particular.

Is there an acronym for "Cat with Personality Disorder" -- cwPD? This one rolls over on her back and seductively invites you to pet her soft, white belly. Then she sinks her claws and teeth into your flesh, and you leave the room dripping blood.

[formflier]

I'm curious about the question you asked hubby...it looked like you were driving for something specific or was the goal to "get rid" of the MIL convo. 

What was the goal there?

What do you think he would have said if...  "Babe...seems like MIL is on your mind..?"

Best,

FF