Not ready for prime time

[AskingWhy]

Sort of.

My uBPD H, several months ago while drunk, apologized to me about what he did to me over 25 years of marriage: rages, breaking furniture, calling me the worst names, almost monthly divorce threats, mental cruelty, discounting me as a person.  You know the drill.

This came a few months after H belly bucked me in a fit of rage, telling me he would punch me if it were not for the fact that he would lose his firearms when I called the police.

Now H is trying to get me to "admit" my role in the abuse, that I said "hurtful" things to him, and he wants me to shoulder some of the blame from the years of discord.  My defenses against the onslaught of abuse is what H considers hurtful.  As such, I don't think H is ready to move forward into better mental health.  

H's adult children have made a mess of their lives through drug abuse and alcohol, mistreating their spouses and other poor decisions.  They are all likely in some spectrum of NPD or BPD.  Also his F is likely BPD, having taken to alcohol and gambling.  H is always in some form of damage control (usually financial) for something his children or F had done.  

The irony of abuse (with a diagnosed PD or not) is that the abusers project blame onto the victim or the target.  This is clearly my case.  My H thinks he has awakened to the year of abuse I suffered but, in a way, blaming me for causing it.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[AskingWhy]

As an answer for all the abusive behaviour, H said it was "to get my attention."  And attention he got: for tearing light fixtures out of the ceiling inches from my face, punching numerous holes in the drywall, going out on daddy dates with an adult D wearing sexually suggestive clothing, not acknowledging the role of his own FOO (uNPD F), countless almost weekly divorce threats, throwing and upturning furniture, scaring the pets with his rages.  And the list goes on.

Attention for what? How I wasn't fitting into his idea of how a wife should be? Watching her own H be a doormat to his own children, and then try to make a doormat out of me?  (All of his children are uBPD or uNPD.)  Having to tolerate the screw ups of his own parents?  (Unwise use of money when they had very little income.  FIL had to have his annual hunting trips to the tune of $4000 each, and green fees at the golf course.)

[Gemsforeyes]

Hi AW-

What brought up this most recent conversation of your H asking that you acknowledge any role you may have played in hurting him?  In your H wanting you to “admit” you’ve said things over the years to hurt him? 

You understand that most of us who’ve been in close relationships with people with PD’s, and didn’t know it, had our backs against a wall at some time or another, or VERY OFTEN...  so, have you ever, EVER said anything like  —

 “No wonder your first wife left you!”   ?

Or

 “I can’t BELIEVE you’re going to bail out that loser daughter of yours AGAIN!  That’s the third car that alcoholic sl*t has driven into a ditch!”. 

I realize I’ve taken it to extreme for dramatic purposes... but you get the point.

We faced emotional and verbal abuse, DV and deep levels of confusion.  And it’s unlikely there’s a person here, a “non” as some refer to themselves, who hasn’t responded in ways that their SO’s would NOT describe as “hurtful”.  Of course we respond emotionally at times when placed in such painful positions and are afraid. 

And once we discover, or come to believe our partners may in fact suffer from a PD, it seems to become clearer, at least to me, how our reactions (right or wrong) COULD be hurtful to them.  Especially if we do it with intent.  You don’t see that?  We both play a role in the dynamics of a couple relationship, in a marriage. 

And saying this does NOT negate your H’s intense abuse toward you, any partner’s abuse.  At all.  And right, I understand that pwBPD/BPD do NOT take into account their SO’s feelings.  Mine did not.  Not my exBF and not my exH.  I am no stranger to these men.  But after a TON of self-reflection, I now understand my role.

For the first 3.5 years of the relationship with my exBPD/NPDbf, I literally lost my voice when he raged.  I cowered and said nothing at all.  When I figured out what he was, I used the tools - with some success.  When I learned of some harmful things he’d done and had grown weary of him, I began to speak up and I raised my voice (once).  And when he really did some damage and I decided the relationship needed to end (but I was scared) and he RAGED on his last night here, I purposely went for his jugular - with every painful feeling, thought and word I’d saved for 6.5 years.  I laid him out.  And that guy STILL wanted to come back.  I told him I didn’t want to know him anymore and he’s finally gone for good.  Thank GOD!

AW, my point is you DO have choices and you know this is true.  Is your H still breaking the light fixtures near you?  Is he still punching holes in walls? 

Yes, there are issues with his kids and his F, but they’re not in your home day to day, are they?  Do you bring them in there by talking about them more than needed?  Does your H?  We can address the family members later.  But please remember, REMEMBER... despite the fact that you’ve stated his kids told him to divorce you, he NEVER DID.  In the 25 years you’ve been together, he’s never left you.

Seems he’s looking for movement in some direction and it may be wise to pay attention.  Do you think your H wants to repair this marriage?  Do you have any interest in doing this?

That’s the question.  If you DON’T want any improvement and he knows this, you can expect more of the same painful experiences.  That will be his pain at rejection speaking, acting out.  Because you expect and want  nothing else, right?

But if you WANT something else, something BETTER from him, and something better from yourself, then why not Express THAT to him?  Why not go to therapy together?  Why not say that “yes, I think my words probably DID hurt you because they came from a place of pain in ME; and I’m sorry...”.  Why NOT explore if there can be improvement between you?

This is me Asking Why NOT?  Or is your resentment toward him and his family just too strong and your love for him just gone? 

Warmly,
Gems

[AskingWhy]

Gems, thank you, as always, for your kind reading and response.

To be honest, I think a lot of the love I once felt for him is gone.  The decades of his rage, projected anger at me (for the way his F and children treated him, and his X cheating on him), unhappiness and jealously of who I was have taken their toll.  In another thread, I discussed how I was a musician when I met him.  I played music daily until H made it clear that my music was a waste of time, and I was better use to him cleaning cooking, tolerating the abuse of his children (from childhood to adulthood) and catering to him.  In time, I stopped playing.  I haven't pick up an instrument in almost twenty five years.  When we speak of soul murder, this is it.  Part of me died inside, and I no longer felt joy playing with H glaring at me every time he walked by.  A first, I played when he was not around, and later not at all.  I would see my music and instrument, and my heart sank inside.

You do have a point about my responding to the abuse in a way that could be perceived by a fragile BPD as abuse.  To be honest, maybe I don't care any more.

I no longer feel any romantic attraction.  If we are intimate, I look over his shoulder at my watch to see when it will be over.  I go through the motions.  He was raised on p*rno graphy as a teen and young man, and much of his early sexual experience came from prostitutes.  He married his high school sweetheart while they were still young.  H tried to pin my hands the other day during intimacy, and I told him never to do it again.  (P*rn often features dominance over women, no surprise.)  

I feel like I am dealing with a fifteen year old.  As his F devalued him over his younger B, H was very close to his mother.  

Maybe improvement comes too late.  It's just like something in literature where the man finally comes around, realising the woman loved him, only to find she is married to someone else.  I am depressed and very sad right now.  I am wondering if I honestly tell him the bad things I said to him were a reaction to the abuse, he might just start in and say, "You started it!"  I would not be surprised.  BPDs dissociate, and he may have very little recollection of what really happened, conjuring up in his head his own version of the incident.  H has very little memory on much, including gifts from me or his family, and I think it's because he is so out of touch with reality.

[Gemsforeyes]

Hi AW-

I want to truly thank you for being so open in your response to me.  I can feel your sadness.   I am so so sorry.  And I can relate to it all too well.

I have things to say to you, but I need to sleep.  And I feel so sad right now, over how I too, lost my music to my H’s demands.  And I stopped being able to make my art because of my disordered BF.  The wounds run deep.  There is hope for healing.

I’ll be back in touch tomorrow.  Love to you, AW.

Gems

[AskingWhy]

In the companion book to, "Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men," a landmark book on spousal abuse, it's common for perpetrators (and even Ts) to try to get the victim to admit their part in the abuse.  It's very common for abusers to see themselves as victims when the target stands up for herself.  They feel "abused."  It's unreal.

Last night, uBPD H said he wanted me to apologise for my "hurting" him.  If one punches someone and hurts them, it's instinct to defend oneself and punch back.  This is what I have done over the years as my H emotionally and psychologically hurt me.  He insulted, used sarcasm, put his children over me (as children and then adults), committed redirected violence (not physical abuse, but punching holes in walls, breaking objects, etc.) and otherwise abused me.

I do not intend to apologise to him for what I did in self defence.  Is is why couples counseling wont' work for cases of abuse and domestic violence.   We went to one T years ago and within one session she was eating out of H's hand, bought into his BPD charm and manipulation and was hollering at me.  Again, unreal.

[once removed]

It's very common for abusers to see themselves as victims when the target stands up for herself.  They feel "abused."  It's unreal.

Last night, uBPD H said he wanted me to apologise for my "hurting" him.  If one punches someone and hurts them, it's instinct to defend oneself and punch back.  

isnt this kind of a way of saying you each feel the same way, and that you each feel justified in your actions?

neither of you see yourself as the puncher. you both see yourself as the one punching back.

[AskingWhy]

isnt this kind of a way of saying you each feel the same way, and that you each feel justified in your actions?

neither of you see yourself as the puncher. you both see yourself as the one punching back.

Asking the target to admit blame is so typical of abuse situations, even in counseling, where both parties are asked to accept fifty percent of the blame for the abuse of the abuser. Lundy Bancroft's book, THE handbook for domestic violence, explains the dynamics of abuse very clearly.

When one is punched, for instance, one defends oneself.  This sometimes means punching back.  Is the person who punched back to be blamed for his actions?  Certainly not.  I dislike being inferred that I was the aggressor or somehow equally to blame for the dynamics.  BPDs live in a world of nonsense where the ordinary rules of civility, common sense and maturity are absent. 

As they say, "Whose side are you on, anyway?"  I thought this was a board for the support of partners of pwBPD.  My only fault is to be the codependent in this R/S.  Most people would walk away and let the pwBPD founder, act out and commit suicide.  I have been in this R/S for 20 years, and I have tried to so hard to "work" with my H in his maladaptive behaviours.   Early on in the first years of marriage (with the rages, the covert enmeshment with his children from his first marriage, the violence against furniture and breaking objects), I have loved, loved and loved and accepted the abuse for so long.  Then I got a wake up call.

It's very common in abusive R/S, when the target starts to stand up for herself/himself, that the abuse escalates. This is where I am now.

Such "blaming the victim" is counter productive.  I don't think anyone in this forum brought the abuse on himself. 

[AskingWhy]

In the book, "Should I Stay or Should I Go?" by Bancroft, the contrition of the abusive is very telling.

If the abuser is truly sorry for his abuse, he does not take great pride in his accomplishment.  He stays remorseful and regretful.  He should not say, "You see!  I no longer give my wife black eyes!  See what a great guy I am?"  Instead, he should be aware that he should not have been punching his wife in the first place.

My H is boasting of all the strides he has taken since his most abusive days.  He is not remorseful, however.  This is not a good sign.   Likewise, I do not like the way he is confiding to his adult D (uNPD) about the state of our marriage.  He told me, "I told D that we are doing much better now," inferring that he must have gone crying to her when we had arguments and difficulties.  This woman, in her 30s, is married with young children, and treats her codependent H shamefully.

Either way, I will in no way accept the blame for my H's abuse of me.

[AskingWhy]

@Gems

Yes, my love for my H is dying, I get up every day looking at him as just the crazy man I am married to.  I do chores, let him get intimate with me (literally waiting for the whole thing to get over with), and am devoid of any feeling for him.  This is the way love dies when one is married to a BPD.  He is a hollow person offering a hollow marriage.

In my first marriage to a uBPD H, he devalued me and left one day.  Came home from work, turned around and left.  I never saw him again.  He served me with divorce papers.  (He was horribly covertly enmeshed with his M.)  In retrospect, it was the best thing he ever did for me.  Devaluing me and leaving.

This is my second marriage to a BPD, and now I can be sure I won't even engage in a R/S with one every again.  My eyes are wide open to the dynamics of the BPD R/S.  (I know my FOO added to this.)

I go through the motions of the dutiful and affectionate W.  But my feelings for my H are no longer love and partnership.  You can't have this with a man who is emotionally a toddler.    I have mostly pity for my H as I look at him as a crazy stranger I am living with.  I cook meal, have intimacy with him, watch evening television with this stranger.  It's my choice, I know, but one I have chosen to live with.  

[formflier]

  He is a hollow person offering a hollow marriage.

 

How would you describe yourself?

Best,

FF

[AskingWhy]

How would you describe yourself?

Best,

FF

Aware of BPD and its means of destroying love and "normal R/Ss," and depressed and miserable in my marriage.

[formflier]

Aware of BPD and its means of destroying love and "normal R/Ss," and depressed and miserable in my marriage.

But can you describe yourself by similar means that you do of your hubby?

Are you a hollow or full person?

Are you offering him a hollow or full marriage?

Best,

FF