Figuring this out

[Lobo7]

Hello all - I tried posting before but not sure if it worked. I’m new to this world and coming to terms with the possibility my wife is dealing with BPD. We’ve been married for 23 years and I feel like I’ve done all I can but feel a tremendous amount of guilt even considering separation, mostly due to my faith and also having emphasized to my kids to “never give up”. We’ve been in steady counseling for 4-5 years and started my kids in counseling due to climatic rages about 2 years ago. I’m primarily looking for clarity and objectivity as my view of normal is pretty skewed I believe. I have more questions than answers. Looking forward to learning more. Here’s a question, does anyone feel like a complete jerk for enforcing boundaries? Also, is anyone dealing with their SO not allowing one on one time with their kids, not expressly but effectively? An example is when I go in to their room at bed time, she’ll follow me in and stand, sit, or lay there awkwardly even after asking for some alone time. So glad I finally know of others experiencing the same types of things.

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[Naughty Nibbler]

Hi Lobo7:
You are posting right, just seems like Covid has slowed down the number of people replying to threads.

 Here’s a question, does anyone feel like a complete jerk for enforcing boundaries?

 Sounds like you could be coming from the perspective of being  a "people pleaser".  Emotionally healthy people have personal boundaries (for things they have control over) and aren't afraid to enforce them.  What are some boundaries that you have thought about, but aren't enforcing?

Is anyone dealing with their SO not allowing one on one time with their kids, not expressly but effectively? An example is when I go in to their room at bed time, she’ll follow me in and stand, sit, or lay there awkwardly even after asking for some alone time.  

You say you have been in counseling for a few years.  It sounds like couple's counseling.  If that is the case, have you ever brought up the situation about how your partner acts to keep you from being alone with the children?  If you have, how did that go.  If you haven't, why not?

[Lobo7]

Thanks for the reply. I’ve never thought of myself as a “people pleaser” nor would I have previously considered some of the behavior from my uBPDw as more than normal marital strife. So, I guess my eyes are opening to a new reality. Traditionally, I had been attempting to reason through the behavior, thinking it would eventually make sense to my wife. Reasoning often became arguing. About 12 years ago, through counseling at the time, I began to realize I couldn’t fix/convince her and it wasn’t my responsibility. It was between her and God. That caused the pendulum to swing to being an avoider. One recent example, (I apologize for the length-there’s a lot of context) which inspired the last post, was that my wife asked me to help with dinner clean up, which that night was relatively light, like 2 minutes, since I had just picked something up on the way home as a rare eating out treat. By the way, her ask is an expectation/demand but posed as a question. I said I would, but wanted to say good night and “give blessings” to our 8 year old boy first. More often, my wife says good night first (going in at the same time sometimes results in insults, subtle or overt). When I get in to say good night/blessings, after story time and back scratching, he’s usually asleep.

This night, I had not seen my son all day and just wanted to be able to connect with him for a few minutes, not about anything specific, just normal bed time talk. After a few minutes, and just as he was starting on a part of his day that was troubling, my wife walks in and lays down beside me. I asked if I could have some alone time with our son since we were talking. Her recent responses have been to the effect of “It’s fine. You’ll be ok. I’m not being controlling.” I asked again explaining that she gets alone time with our 4 kids regularly and I have to make it work when I have the opportunity. She remained and asked again about helping with dinner. I said I would, as I did before. She said she hadn’t heard me, which seemed like a stall tactic but didn’t address it. I’m still figuring out how to impose intentional boundaries that won’t cause a blow up in front of the kids and not very good at it. The best I could come up with at the time was, “If you choose to not allow me one on one time with our kids, you can clean up dinner by yourself.”  Our son started to pick up on the tension and motioned for me (my wife couldn’t see him) to give him blessings in order to avoid what would inevitably come if I were to persist. I gave blessings and left the room closing the door behind me as I always do. My wife moved quickly for the door to not allow it to close (not sure what that was about). After 10 minutes, she came out and hurled a few comments/insults regarding my lack of willingness to be a helpful part of the family. I responded that I wasn’t going to engage in the conversation when it involves insults and that I simply wanted time with our son. That’s a good thing.

I went back into our son’s room later to finish our conversation. When I walked in, he was obviously tense and said he was afraid what would happen if mom came back and I wa there. This has become a common response with 3 of the 4 kids. If I talk to them, at bed time or other, my wife finds a reason to come in and just remains, sometimes awkwardly saying to keep talking. I’ve even tried locking the door, but she’ll get the key and unlock it and usually spirals up the continuum, causing more tension, even all out verbal assaults. On a few occasions those assaults have developed into physical contact that was either explained away as unintentional or turned around on me, saying I was being physically abusive. Fortunately or unfortunately, at least one of the kids were witness to these events. This, then developed into her telling others that I was being abusive. When others started to inquire, it was downplayed as best as I can tell.

To answer your second question, we haven’t discussed this specific event at counseling, but others like it. I’ve come to learn that IF my wife acknowledges it, it’s met with excuses and when the counselor advises something, she’ll only adhere to it if she wants to. I have to figure out how to impose a boundary that gets through. As an alternative to meet the objective of spending one on one time with the kids, I’ve set up weekly dates with one kid per week, but that hardly compares to those daily impromptu conversations that you have to be available for.

[GaGrl]

Your wife's behavior is a serious interference with your ability to parent effectively.

Has this problematic behavior been discussed in your couples therapy?

[Naughty Nibbler]

Hi again Lobo7:
You have to share the bedtime issues during therapy - all of it.  Discuss everything you shared here, and don't leave anything out. Therapists have different policies about couple's therapy.  If your therapist would permit a separate session with just you, perhaps that is something to do. If your therapist will accept a phone call; maybe you broach the subject of the bedtime issue and set the stage for the next couple's session.

Therapy will be your best place to discuss this and discuss it every session, until the issue is resolved. This could set the stage for you to enforce a bedtime boundary. It's not going to be a "one & done" session.  Your wife may rebel over the issue.  You will never personally gain a benefit from couple's therapy, if you don't drill down to these types of situations.

Patterns of behavior (habits) aren't resolved easily. Generally, a new routine needs to be established.  You can work it out in counseling.  Perhaps, you do an every other day bedtime prayer & talk.


Your wife needs to dig deep about why she does what she does with the children, which appears to be some level of alienation of affection.  Part of it could be a control issue.  Whatever the root cause, her behavior is detrimental to both you and the children.

Is there something from your wife's childhood that may be in play?  Any bedtime issues for her growing up?  Has your wife had individual counseling in the past?  If yes, does she currently go to counseling?

You indicate your children are in counseling.  Have they been diagnosed with any mental health conditions that could be genetic?  Is your wife's behavior the main reason your children are in counseling?

I'm assuming you are Christian, for the sake of this discussion. (if not, the logic will be basically the same.)  Unfortunately, prayer and a relationship with God doesn't seem to have much leverage when it comes to people with personality disorders.  It can be hard to understand how someone professes to be a Christian, goes to church, prays, studies the bible, but treats a family member (s), contrary to biblical principles.

Many times, it's a matter of someone appearing like a saint to church friends and groups.  The dirty little secret is that they save up all their anxiety and emotions and unload them at home, where they feel comfortable.  They may even tell others that you are the problem.  Sometimes, they target only their partner, other times the scapegoat will be one of the children.

I admire your desire to work things out.  Unless you become serious & consistent with issues like the bedtime issue, things won't change.  Your wife won't like it, but you have to work through this.  She needs to understand that what she is doing is abusive behavior.
 

[Lobo7]

Your wife's behavior is a serious interference with your ability to parent effectively.

Has this problematic behavior been discussed in your couples therapy?

It absolutely is a serious interference. It gets turned back on me in various ways. This is just one incident. This time she downplayed it. Other times she thinks I’m colluding against her. Similar situations, often times much worse, have been brought up with the counselor. They’ve become more direct with her but stop short of mentioning a disorder. I’m told she would have to be tested/evaluated before determining anything and there’s no way my uBPDw would agree to that. I had my Walking on Eggshells book hidden in my work bag only to find it missing one morning and replaced with a note asking if I was concerned that I had BPD and naming some traits that would confirm this. I bought another book and hide it outside of the house.

[Lobo7]

Hi again Lobo7:
You have to share the bedtime issues during therapy - all of it.  Discuss everything you shared here, and don't leave anything out. Therapists have different policies about couple's therapy.  If your therapist would permit a separate session with just you, perhaps that is something to do. If your therapist will accept a phone call; maybe you broach the subject of the bedtime issue and set the stage for the next couple's session.

Therapy will be your best place to discuss this and discuss it every session, until the issue is resolved. This could set the stage for you to enforce a bedtime boundary. It's not going to be a "one & done" session.  Your wife may rebel over the issue.  You will never personally gain a benefit from couple's therapy, if you don't drill down to these types of situations.

Patterns of behavior (habits) aren't resolved easily. Generally, a new routine needs to be established.  You can work it out in counseling.  Perhaps, you do an every other day bedtime prayer & talk.


Your wife needs to dig deep about why she does what she does with the children, which appears to be some level of alienation of affection.  Part of it could be a control issue.  Whatever the root cause, her behavior is detrimental to both you and the children.

Is there something from your wife's childhood that may be in play?  Any bedtime issues for her growing up?  Has your wife had individual counseling in the past?  If yes, does she currently go to counseling?

You indicate your children are in counseling.  Have they been diagnosed with any mental health conditions that could be genetic?  Is your wife's behavior the main reason your children are in counseling?

I'm assuming you are Christian, for the sake of this discussion. (if not, the logic will be basically the same.)  Unfortunately, prayer and a relationship with God doesn't seem to have much leverage when it comes to people with personality disorders.  It can be hard to understand how someone professes to be a Christian, goes to church, prays, studies the bible, but treats a family member (s), contrary to biblical principles.

Many times, it's a matter of someone appearing like a saint to church friends and groups.  The dirty little secret is that they save up all their anxiety and emotions and unload them at home, where they feel comfortable.  They may even tell others that you are the problem.  Sometimes, they target only their partner, other times the scapegoat will be one of the children.

I admire your desire to work things out.  Unless you become serious & consistent with issues like the bedtime issue, things won't change.  Your wife won't like it, but you have to work through this.  She needs to understand that what she is doing is abusive behavior.
 

Patterns of behavior and no reasoning. That’s my frustration and exhaustion really. I have spent decades trying to reason through each situation and not always in the most humble way. We rarely are able to resolve situations completely as we run in circles. When I feel that I’m starting to get through we jump to a different topic. We’ve had marriage studies address this and many other issues most couples face. We’ve gone to marriage retreats. We’ve been in counseling off and on for 12 years and consistently for about 5. Due to moves, we’ve had to jump around but the last 3 years has been with the same team. We started with couples counseling, but she fired that one because he was starting to be direct with her. I still see that one individually as it takes a long time for the counselors to see through the first impression and the thought of explaining to another counselor just made me mentally tired. She started seeing another counselor and was asking for separation. I wanted to keep trying and was afraid I would see my kids less and the issues were not as overt at the time. Both of the counselors and my wife and I started meeting every couple of sessions until my wife thought my counselor (the one she previously fired) was taking my side when he was being direct, even though he was just as direct to me. Next, we introduced a third counselor, the senior counselor in the practice, who we currently see together, as well as the individual ones. Eventually, the issues became very obvious to the kids during a climatic anger episode. This is when I started the kids in counseling. We’ve been through many events that have been relayed to the counselors, by me, by the kids, and by her, but the patterns of behavior still continue.The most recent episode made me realize that I’m being irresponsible for allowing the kids to remain in this and I announce at the next counseling that I wanted to move toward separation so the hemorrhaging can stop for all involved. She agreed to go to an intensive retreat the next day. (Total transparency-she agreed before but planned it the next day)

 The kids’ counselor and our current counselor have asked to speak privately and have been pretty blunt, but my wife won’t budge. She thinks I have them all fooled. I think she honestly believes that.

I am a Christian and come from a divorced home and the upbringing that you never mention divorce. It’s not an option. Put your head down and suffer through it.  Suffering makes you rely on Him and makes you stronger.

As for her past, her parents are still together, but she says she has a fear of abandonment. That said, they’re the generation where they never said they loved her. Her dad is a mild mannered physician who everyone loves, her mom the ever ready and prepared stay at home who runs the show. We’ve talked about this also, but I feel like she needs to figure this out without relying on me. I’ve encouraged her to voice her hurt to her parents and even offered to have her go back home (30 hours away) to work on this. She saw it as trying to get rid of her. The only signs of digging deep are what seems to be for appearances and to justify her claims that I’m the jerk.I can’t win. She has even made our prayer at bed into a lecture when angry to the point I won’t pray with her. She still does, particularly when she’s ornery. This goes along with not respecting my wishes and is definitely about control, just as she did with the bedtime routine. By the way, she may agree to what you suggested, but my frustration is that too often she goes back on it on a whim. What then?  When she gets angry, I’ve tried going for a drive with the kids,  just to allow things to calm down. She wouldn’t let us out of the house and said she was going too.

This is a long diarrhetical rant. I know. I feel like I’ve tried everything. I know I haven’t loved her like I should and often think that’s why all of this. Love never fails. I have nothing left in the tank. I feel like the frog in a slowly boiling pot and just now realizing that I don’t recognize myself. Can you flesh out the “serious and consistent” part a little more? Beside following through with separation, I don’t know what other boundaries/consequences to impose.

[Naughty Nibbler]

Lobo7:
Lots of counseling. One big stumbling block is that unless your wife can admit that she is at least part of the problem, the only way that you might find some relief is to focus on you and find some relief in changing the ways you interact and react.

A good way to start with some strategies, is to go to the large green band at the top of the page.  Then, go to the "Tools" menu and check out a couple of the links.  Validation/Don't validate can be a good place to start.  There is a link there to the "Workshops", where you can find a lot of things to work through.

You have already indicated that you sometimes take a "Time Out", by driving somewhere with the children.  The link below, might help you fine tune that strategy, so check it out.  When you do this, are you saying anything to your wife about when to expect you back, or do you stay silent?
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=84942.0

So, you have to take care of yourself and learn/use communication skills and strategy to make your best attempt to make things better for you and to hopefully defuse as many situations as possible.

As for her past, her parents are still together, but she says she has a fear of abandonment. That said, they’re the generation where they never said they loved her. Her dad is a mild mannered physician who everyone loves, her mom the ever ready and prepared stay at home who runs the show.  

It's not unusual to have parents who don't express verbal "I love you's", or don't do it very often.  Guess I'd rather have parents demonstrate by their actions, that they love me, as opposed to having parents that "talk the talk", but don't "walk the walk"

Although having a very abusive childhood, can be a root cause of mental health issues, such as BPD, there is generally some genetic issue going on, either with brain chemistry or wiring.  Mental health issues don't always appear in every generation.  Sometimes, you can see issues in other relatives: grandma/grandpa, uncles/aunts, cousins, etc.

What is the mental health background with your wife?  Has she had issues with anxiety and depression? When did they start for her?  How long was your courtship & with looking back, were there any red flags?

 We started with couples counseling, but she fired that one because he was starting to be direct with her. I still see that one individually as it takes a long time for the counselors to see through the first impression and the thought of explaining to another counselor just made me mentally tired.  

 Have either you or your wife come away from any therapy sessions and tried some suggested communication strategy, coping skill, etc.?

How about establishing some therapy goals for yourself, about things that you have control over?  Have any of the therapists given your ideas on how to change the problems with the nighttime rituals?  It's a tough situation, if she continues to do things like unlock the door, or even creating a situation where there is a need to lock a door to get her to give you some privacy.  I'm guessing that you could use some gizmo that people use in hotels, to block the door from the inside temporarily, but I'm guessing she will have a tantrum.  Bottom line is that you don't want to traumatize the children any more than they already are.

One thing for your wife to do, would be to make a list of things to do to "self soothe", during your end-of evening private time with the children.  Maybe she calls a friend, makes a playlist of music and listens to it, listens to a podcast, engage in some form of meditation (there are many to choose from), does some form of exercise (YouTube videos, free weights, DVD's, etc.).

Eventually, the issues became very obvious to the kids during a climatic anger episode.    

Has your wife learned any anger-management skills, after all the counseling?  You don't  have to point to a diagnosis in order to learn to manage emotions like anger.  There are lots of ways to make an effort to manage feelings.  Learning skills to manage emotions is an emotionally intelligent thing to do & can be helpful for anyone.

She agreed to go to an intensive retreat the next day. (Total transparency-she agreed before but planned it the next day)
  

Sounds like you have been to multiple retreats.  Is the upcoming retreat based on your religious principals, and applying them to a relationship?  

Since you brought up possible separation, and your wife is willing to go to the retreat.  This could an opportunity to approach the retreat with a full court press.  Be aggressive with follow-up during subsequent counseling sessions. Perhaps address something like a need to learn anger management tools?  Unless you continue to press the issues in therapy, there could be a short "honeymoon period", after the retreat, and then back to the way it was.


I'm not suggesting that you go around quoting bible verses, but there are verses about anger.  Do you think you are on the same page with your wife, in regard to your faith?  I believe in miracles, but they aren't the norm (i.e. dr. says chances of survival are very slim for a patient, but they beat all odds and survive).

I, also, believe that God helps those who help their self.  i.e. A person with an anger management issue, recognizes it, admits it, prays about the issue and is led to make the long-term effort to gain skills to manage anger.  For most people, it won't be a "one & done" situation.  New habits, for things like anger mgmt., take ongoing tune ups.  It's very easy for most to slip back into bad behaviors again.

Next, we introduced a third counselor, the senior counselor in the practice, who we currently see together, as well as the individual ones. Eventually, the issues became very obvious to the kids during a climatic anger episode. This is when I started the kids in counseling. We’ve been through many events that have been relayed to the counselors, by me, by the kids, and by her, but the patterns of behavior still continue.    

 It feels good to vent in therapy, but that doesn't fix things.  Has any particular issue been carried forward from week to week?  Any strategy about managing anger or other issues?  Talking about them, doesn't fix anything for someone who can't admit to being part of the problem an/or someone who isn't motivated to change.

Can you flesh out the “serious and consistent” part a little more? Beside following through with separation, I don’t know what other boundaries/consequences to impose    

 

I can only comment based on what you write and the understand I come away with.  None of us who comment know the whole story, but we react to what we read.  It appears as if both member, GaGrl, and I had similar reactions to your account of the bedtime behaviors by your wife.

What's going on with your children is serious, in that the dynamics between you and your wife is NOT healthy for your children.  At the very least, they have to be anxious about you possibly splitting up.

Whether you stay together or not, is something you have to decide & perhaps that needs to be discussed in depth, during your solo sessions first, then the joint counseling sessions.  One thing to explore is whether your children could be showing signs of anxiety and/or other mental health issues, based on genetics, environment only or both.

Your wife's attempts at alienating you from your children, while in your own home, is unhealthy for both you and your children.  Another avenue to explore is some additional counseling with a respected person at your church.  Some churches would see your dysfunctional relationship as a justification for divorce, and a way to mitigate the emotional damage to the children.