Communication has ceased again

[UBPDHelp]

Mod note: This thread was split from this topic as it warranted its own discussionhttps://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=346963.0#

Please don't presume ANYTHING.

Key points.

You ask for what you want.

If he chooses to be clear...consider his request.  If he is vague or manipulative...consider that.

Communicate...or attempt to.  No mind reading...no presumptions. Do not give any emotional energy to what you BELIEVE he will ask for...or FEAR he will ask for.  

Best,

FF

I can NOT presume anything. And, true, I don’t really want to know the answer.

When he talks about getting a hotel and time away from kids, I also don’t need to be daft. I don’t think he wants to build model boats.

But, withholding income because of it feels akin to prostitution.  Can you show how it doesn’t?


Communication has ceased again. He’s stopped responding. Doesn’t answer a call or a text. Even re: kids. Melting down about what? Pandemic? Election?  Both?

Truly this is over. Sans a girlfriend I know about — there could be, idk, idc — this is the MO of his father. Oldest graduated college, became more distant and his mom tossed his things in bags on the front lawn when she found out he had a gf. I don’t intend to do that, but otherwise similar.

Pandemic and inability to move about is holding me back from making big moves. I am coming to emotional terms with everything and planning my future. I have a LOT of work to do, but have made tremendous progress on medical stuff (still have few more diagnostic tests to go) but I believe mostly ruling everything out and then focus on emotional well being and legal stuff.

His current behavior/mental state may expedite things. Idk, I feel I could sort it if I have to. And, honestly, I may soon realize there’s not a “perfect” or “good” time to do it.

I acknowledge that we will have to communicate for the next 10-12 years until my youngest is in/through college, but I’m getting the hang of BIFF communication.

I’ll keep thinking about all the good info and advice here and see where I settle. Thank you for always pushing for other perspectives.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

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[UBPDHelp]

Only the money removed from the account becomes commingled.  You can't put it back, as I understand it.

Thank you for the clarification.

[UBPDHelp]

Correct. And if you can document what you removed from your funds to pay bills that he was shirking, that could be helpful documentation.

Also helpful to know. It’s a FT job documenting these things. But hopefully worth it.   Thanks!

[formflier]

But, withholding income because of it feels akin to prostitution.  Can you show how it doesn’t?

 

Is this something you really want to have a discussion about?

Switching gears.

Regarding "really wanting to know the answer".  Ever considered that he feels the same way?  Think  there can be common ground there as a starting point/ice breaker to come to agreement on difficult issues?

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Is this something you really want to have a discussion about?

Nope, don’t need a discussion about it.  Know where I stand, just a bit unclear about your suggestion.

Switching gears.

Regarding "really wanting to know the answer".  Ever considered that he feels the same way?  Think  there can be common ground there as a starting point/ice breaker to come to agreement on difficult issues?

Best,

FF

What answer does he really not want to know?

Look, I don’t believe that someone who has been the primary breadwinner winner, primarily by his own choice, gets to just decide to withhold income needed for bills for any reason.

He turned it into some form of payment in exchange. Not me.

And, he is also responsible for alienating affection.  I didn’t do that, he did.

You can make assumptions that I’m not taking responsibility for my own part. Not true.

If you believe that or think there is a conversation that could make this right, I would argue that you have not experienced severity of BPD/NPD as this or many others on here have.

I suspect the severity of dysregulation correlates to the severity of charming/love bombing/idealization. Meaning when severe PD people are functioning, the charm is great, the times are wonderful making the inevitable dysregulation even more confusing. They live in extremes and it makes it hard to understand for nons.

FF, I’m not trying to be difficult with you.  I’m struggling with how much I have to bend just to near a normal.

What is he going to do to restore any goodwill?

Do you expect intimacy with someone who you have called vile, nasty things in specific regard to intimacy?  How does my brain reconcile that?

Ultimately, yes, there has to be a modicum of getting along, but I’m looking for legal approach to deal with the current refusal to support the family. This is not he doesn’t have it, he does, he is not putting it to the family.

Didn’t even mention the multiple toys he’s bought for himself in the last week.  

I’m over the conversation and being asked to sacrifice any financial stability so he can fill a need (that never is filled) with vacations and cars and sex.  Just not right for me.

So, really interested in strategy and how to approach, or whether to approach.  

Thanks...

[ForeverDad]

I faced similar issues with intimacy, but the reverse of your situation because our gender is switched.  (Note that in my posts quoted below I never used manipulation or money for intimacy.  And when I was mistreated I didn't pursue it.)  When a person is mentally ill this way they will use manipulation that is so hurtful.

My ex literally used the word sex but I always viewed it as love, that was the chasm between us.  It hurt back then, but my ex too used sexx as a four-letter weapon, leading me on with "Tonight... ." but somehow during the day either she got mad at me or she did something that just turned me off.  So intimacy became very rare.  Toward the end she made it all about the conflict.  I recall one rage where she vented, "I feel like a prostitute, I should get paid!"  I remember thinking to myself, "Then you sure won't earn much."

"I feel like a prostitute, I want to get paid!"  (for what, where is the intimacy?)

Formflier has a point, Do you want this discussion?  Your stbEx wants to use money for sex.  He doesn't see that as bad, but you do.  Probably no amount of reasoning on your part will enlighten him.  No easy answer here.

[babyducks]

Hi UBPDHelp,

Hope you don't mind if I pop in with a couple of thoughts.

Look, I don’t believe that someone who has been the primary breadwinner winner, primarily by his own choice, gets to just decide to withhold income needed for bills for any reason.

It seems that this is volatile topic.   I would guess that you place a value on fiscal responsibility, that being on time with payments and honoring your obligations is important to you.   You are not one who is comfortable with unresolved debt.  There also seems to be expectations of fair and honest financial dealings within a marriage.   and an expectation of shared responsibility and shared agreements.     Your Husband is not matching your values or expectations.    He seems able to tolerate financial disarray much more than you do.    In this regard you are not a good match.

He is pushing on your buttons to get a response.    and its working.   you are reacting.    Please consider severing this emotional tie.

If you have values and expectations you might want to consider drawing boundaries around them.   boundaries  to protect you from the distress of having your values and expectations encroached upon. 

Make Sense?

If you believe that or think there is a conversation that could make this right, I would argue that you have not experienced severity of BPD/NPD as this or many others on here have.

UBPDHelp... take a deep breath.   slow down.    try and relax yourself for a few minutes and clear your thoughts.   

How about we look at this from a different angle?   maybe a new and uncomfortable perspective?     Lets jettison the idea of a "conversation that could make this right"   and think about a conversation that could express what you think,... what you want...what you are willing to do.    Let's try and envision a conversation that puts you in the leadership role.

I’m struggling with how much I have to bend just to near a normal.

Intriguing that you equate the idea of communicating with bending to meet his ideas.     Why bend at all?     Can you express to him your thoughts/opinions?    State what you are willing to do and what you are not willing to consider ?   the phrase "No I am not doing that."   is a complete sentence.   So is the phrase "I will consider doing XYZ if we can have ABC for a while."

I’m looking for legal approach to deal with the current refusal to support the family.   

Okay.    I understand.     and I agree you want to legally protect yourself from his current behavior.     Have you contacted the lawyer you spoke with last?    State and local laws differ from place to place but is there a legal mechanism to separate you from bills and obligations that are in his name only?

my situation was different but I took steps of notifying certain obligations that I was removing my name from the shared responsibility.    it took some paperwork and some uncomfortable conversations.

how can you protect your credit rating if he defaults on loans?    do you have credit in your name alone?

respectfully
'ducks

[formflier]

Hey...UBPDHelp  I (we) are on your side.  We are on your side when we agree with what you are saying and also we are on your side when encouraging you to look at your part...when we disagree with your approach.

And please don't "hear" me (us) saying your values are wrong.  Please do hear me saying that it' unlikely that the approach/style of thinking you are bringing to the table will work with a disordered person...especially your hubby, who I think I'm getting a bit of a vibe for how "he thinks" (and..100% agreement it/he is disordered).

 

Nope, don’t need a discussion about it.

 Know where I stand, just a bit unclear about your suggestion.

Interesting..my suggestion/strategy is for you to eliminate unclarity/implicit/assuming styles of communication.

What answer does he really not want to know?

I haven't a clue.  My point was not to figure out "what" he doesn't want to know.  My point was, imagine for a minute that he has similar frustrations in his relationships...perhaps even his relationship with you.  I would hope that would empower you to approach him from a point of view of empathy...vice your current approach (which I believe we all agree isn't working..right?)

Look, I don’t believe that someone who has been the primary breadwinner winner, primarily by his own choice, gets to just decide to withhold income needed for bills for any reason.

So...let's stick with my suggestion of "clarity".  Is your value/belief system such that you can't imagine any reason whatsoever that he would ever be justified in your mind for "withholding" or "thinking through" or (fill in blank) money?    Does his opinion matter about what money is "needed"?

He turned it into some form of payment in exchange. Not me.

Perhaps he did.   How would he express his point of view?

And, he is also responsible for alienating affection.  I didn’t do that, he did.

What does this look like?  What did you do in response?

You can make assumptions that I’m not taking responsibility for my own part. Not true.

This is interesting.  It suggests to me that you are overthinking/overanalyzing our communications here...because the assumption/point of view that I approach this story with has very little to do with "taking responsibility for your own part"  (that is an important concept, yet not one I'm using)

If you believe that or think there is a conversation that could make this right, I would argue that you have not experienced severity of BPD/NPD as this or many others on here have.

I don't believe there is a conversation that can make this right or wrong.

I do believe that the process(es) that you are using to communicate with and "accomplish things" in your relationship with your hubby are not getting you the results you appear to desire.  I do believe you should radically change/try different approaches.  (such as explicit clear non-assuming communication).

Clarity:  The new approaches may or may not work, but they will give you (us) valuable insight into what is possible in your relationship.

Umm...don't want to make this post too much about me, but I would suggest that my wife believing and taking action on her belief that I have (had) a love child that I revealed to her in a meeting at McDonald's with the baby and Mom and that I snuck that child onto my military insurance by naming the child onto my military insurance by giving the child my wife's unique name...well...I hope that would qualify as "exposure to severe BPD/NPD".

I suspect the severity of dysregulation correlates to the severity of charming/love bombing/idealization. Meaning when severe PD people are functioning, the charm is great, the times are wonderful making the inevitable dysregulation even more confusing. They live in extremes and it makes it hard to understand for nons.

I agree.

FF, I’m not trying to be difficult with you.  I’m struggling with how much I have to bend just to near a normal.

I don't believe you are trying to be difficult.  I do believe you are having a hard time seeing/understanding/implementing different points of view. 

I also think the use of words like "normal" are possibly contributing to keeping you stuck.

As in "I want normal" (with the implication that he doesn't).  What if...imagine with me here.  What if in his heart of hearts...his version or normal and yours don't match?  What if...what if he does't want to be difficult with you...he just wants "normal".

(I don't know that he has these exact thoughts/feelings)  Yet I do think it's important that you consider the possibility and consider ways to change the dynamic between you two.

What is he going to do to restore any goodwill?

Great question to ask him.

Do you expect intimacy with someone who you have called vile, nasty things in specific regard to intimacy?  How does my brain reconcile that?

I make an observation that the "intimacy thing" is really on your mind at a time when he hasn't explicitly asked for it, nor has anyone else explicitly or implicitly suggested you should do this. 

Your husband may or may not mean this in his suggestions/ideas. 

Ultimately, yes, there has to be a modicum of getting along, but I’m looking for legal approach to deal with the current refusal to support the family. This is not he doesn’t have it, he does, he is not putting it to the family.

The legal approach is to get lawyer to file suit/divorce action and get the support the law will allow.

I think there is a strong possibility that the resources could be gotten by you changing your approach.  At a minimum it will get you more information about your future relationship with him.

I’m over the conversation and being asked to sacrifice any financial stability so he can fill a need (that never is filled) with vacations and cars and sex.  Just not right for me.

It doesn't appear to me that you are "over" the conversation.  It appears to matter to you a great deal.  Furthermore it doesn't appear to me that there was an explicit conversation...it appears to me there were lots of hints and assumptions and lots of fraught feelings about sex and money (which are hot topics in just about every relatioship)

So, really interested in strategy and how to approach, or whether to approach.  

Yes to approach.  No to hints and assumptions.  Yes to explicit communications. 

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

My previous marriage was to an extreme BPD/NPD/ASPD, and I dealt with some similar issues regarding financial responsibility and intimacy.

After his extremely ugly behavior, I had zero desire to be intimate with him. However, in his mind, I was “withholding intimacy” and actively doing something to hurt him.

He couldn’t understand that I was flat out disgusted by him and that translated to never ever wanting to have sex with him ever again. Yet I did at times to placate him and it was as you said—I felt like a prostitute.

My advice to you is to follow your feelings and if you don’t want intimacy, don’t do it in trade for getting bills paid.

[UBPDHelp]

I faced similar issues with intimacy, but the reverse of your situation because our gender is switched.  (Note that in my posts quoted below I never used manipulation or money for intimacy.  And when I was mistreated I didn't pursue it.)  When a person is mentally ill this way they will use manipulation that is so hurtful.

Thanks for sharing ForeverDad, I’m sorry you had to deal with this.  It is confusing to deal with, to say the least.

Formflier has a point, Do you want this discussion?  Your stbEx wants to use money for sex.  He doesn't see that as bad, but you do.  Probably no amount of reasoning on your part will enlighten him.  No easy answer here.

Agree, he will never see it the same.  My previous answers may have been off as I waffled whether FF was asking if I wanted to have the conversation around this here or with my H.  So may have given a confusing two-for answer.

I don’t think a discussion is needed here because I would guess that there would be little dissent. A discussion with H is pointless as we would not get any where.

Thanks ForeverDad, it’s appreciated your willingness to share hurtful experiences...and to find them from so long ago.

[UBPDHelp]

Hi UBPDHelp,

Hope you don't mind if I pop in with a couple of thoughts.

Never mind, quite the contrary — thankful for your willingness to share.

It seems that this is volatile topic.   I would guess that you place a value on fiscal responsibility, that being on time with payments and honoring your obligations is important to you.   You are not one who is comfortable with unresolved debt.  There also seems to be expectations of fair and honest financial dealings within a marriage.   and an expectation of shared responsibility and shared agreements.     Your Husband is not matching your values or expectations.    He seems able to tolerate financial disarray much more than you do.    In this regard you are not a good match.

He is pushing on your buttons to get a response.    and its working.   you are reacting.    Please consider severing this emotional tie.

I do prefer the peace of responsible finances. We all know sometimes things come up, but I’d rather prepare for that some.

To clarify, I have had zero reaction to this latest round of financial manipulation.

He told me 2 weeks ago he may need it for an apartment. I told him I’d need time to think about what he said.

A week ago I brought up the big expense we have, it is NOT unexpected, and we discussed needing his income and mine and came up with a plan. Pandemic impacted income, but not many responsibilities.

Shortly thereafter he told me he wanted alone time without kids.

He gets paid via old school checks, which he had 3 weeks’ worth, but refused to give them to me (I manage the banking).  I didn’t ask. I didn’t plead. I have said nothing.

He wiped out the main account (there is a second I use to put aside money for bills, etc., and the main one for day to day stuff).  Yesterday without a word, he deposited all 3 checks into the bank.

He freaks out every Sunday because he goes back to work on Monday.  Monday came and he ignored my texts and phone calls, has refused to eat with us all week, stays away when he comes home.

I couldn’t have a discussion with him if I wanted to. I don’t.

BUT, this is the divorce board and I’m not trying, atm, to improve the relationship.  I was looking for help whether I should address the withholding of pay. It has resolved for now, but of course not without ramifications.

If you have values and expectations you might want to consider drawing boundaries around them.   boundaries  to protect you from the distress of having your values and expectations encroached upon.  

Make Sense?

UBPDHelp... take a deep breath.   slow down.    try and relax yourself for a few minutes and clear your thoughts.    

How about we look at this from a different angle?   maybe a new and uncomfortable perspective?     Lets jettison the idea of a "conversation that could make this right"   and think about a conversation that could express what you think,... what you want...what you are willing to do.    Let's try and envision a conversation that puts you in the leadership role.

Intriguing that you equate the idea of communicating with bending to meet his ideas.     Why bend at all?  

Sorry to break this thought.  I don’t mean bend to meet his ideas, per se.  I really mean bend to be the one who constantly tries to resolve issues. Resolve doesn’t mean I do what he wants or he does what I want but most things need a conclusion.  To get there I have to be the one to engage to attempt resolution.   I’m tired of the responsibility. Couple that with my belief that for most of these issues, they simply were never worthy of being contentious in the first place.  

Can you express to him your thoughts/opinions?    State what you are willing to do and what you are not willing to consider ?   the phrase "No I am not doing that."   is a complete sentence.   So is the phrase "I will consider doing XYZ if we can have ABC for a while."

Yes. He is currently ignoring me and I am currently not willing to be the one to resolve this. It offers zero respect for my feelings, which I shared and he continued to mock.

Okay.    I understand.     and I agree you want to legally protect yourself from his current behavior.     Have you contacted the lawyer you spoke with last?    State and local laws differ from place to place but is there a legal mechanism to separate you from bills and obligations that are in his name only?

I have a call set with her again.  I also have a really good attorney/mediator in mind. The first attorney I feel comfortable with but I am not confident in my ability to judge her ability to handle a PD adversary.  Someone mentioned looking on legal boards for names so I plan to research this weekend.

The biggest bills are in his name only. The cars are joint, but are 2/3 and 3/4 paid.  I could manage to do both to paid off if I had to. Utilities are split. My ccs are paid except one, which I am working to pay off. I have no other debt.

my situation was different but I took steps of notifying certain obligations that I was removing my name from the shared responsibility.    it took some paperwork and some uncomfortable conversations.

how can you protect your credit rating if he defaults on loans?    do you have credit in your name alone?

respectfully
'ducks

You are smarter than me!  I am mostly protected because I could pay off the cars if I had to.  I am on no other loans with him (or any, kind of, see below).

I have a couple of credit cards in my name that I use minimally and pay off. I took out a “personal” loan to build credit. It really is a credit tool to improve credit score and it automatically transfers a small, set amount each month into a CD, that matures after a year or two.  So you pay yourself basically.  It’s a tiny amount but it reports as a loan so it improves your credit score and diversifies the type of accounts.

I hope it is enough.

Thanks ‘ducks!

[UBPDHelp]

Hey...UBPDHelp  I (we) are on your side.  We are on your side when we agree with what you are saying and also we are on your side when encouraging you to look at your part...when we disagree with your approach.

And please don't "hear" me (us) saying your values are wrong.  Please do hear me saying that it' unlikely that the approach/style of thinking you are bringing to the table will work with a disordered person...especially your hubby, who I think I'm getting a bit of a vibe for how "he thinks" (and..100% agreement it/he is disordered).

 

Thanks FF.  I know ultimately there is communication to be had. Currently I am too exhausted to manage disordered communication. Emotionally, physically, literally.

I also am too exhausted to perfectly express my views.

I am simply tired of talking to someone who only hears their own dialogue and doesn’t hear me.

My mom died when I was 20 years old. Unexpected accident. I never got to say goodbye. In fact, I was away at college and had not seen her for a couple of months. Much communication, I will spare you the eerie nature of some of it, perhaps only in hindsight. Needless to say this was devastating.

My dad died last fall. Not unexpected. Grueling, heart wrenching.  My H despised my dad and used some things to drive a wedge. Not even going to blame H, I could have/should have stopped it. I did not understand the MO.  I take responsibility for allowing it to happen.

When dad went into hospice, H and I went to visit. It was difficult. He didn’t remember who I was half the time, he was thin, so so thin. It was sad and hard to witness.  The first day he couldn’t get out of bed. I had to go to the other room just to cry. The second day, he was up and getting ready for church. I fixed his buttons and brushed his hair, as if he was one of my kids. He was off to church (he had a driver) and we headed to the airport. For the hour drive, my H railed on me about what a disgusting vile slut I am.  It was the last time I saw my dad.

When my dad died a couple of weeks later, my H never, ever, ever said he was sorry. Instead he left for four days leading up to our anniversary, didn’t speak to me for days and then 8 pm on our anniversary wants to get a hotel room. I declined.

I sat mourning the loss of my father, both my parents (brings up a lot of memories) ALONE for days.

NOW, my H complains he hasn’t seen his family since start of pandemic.  It hasn’t felt safe, but as things got better, I suggested we try to but with masks and distance. I was trying to be supportive and cheer him up. We did 3 weekends in a row.

My 5 yo niece came the first weekend and said, “Hey Aunt X, next time we come can you make your brownies cause they’re my favorite.”  I had requests from SIL, too.

The next week, I made the requests of everyone.  My H sat with all of us (distanced eating/spread out) but REFUSED to eat any of it.  Walked in the kitchen and said “I see you made all my brother’s favorites.”  So he refused to eat it.  It was actually YOUR niece and YOUR SIL, who requested. Who cares anyway?  Oh, yes, he does. 

My point?  I have no parents left, no compassion or acknowledgment that may be difficult. Yet, I bend (those feelings) and show more compassion to him that he misses his family, take action to make that happen AND still get insulted and deal with disordered thinking.

I’m exhausted of trying to help him feel better. Or, if you don’t believe I am doing things to help him/the situation, then I’m okay with being incapable of willingness to try.

Interesting..my suggestion/strategy is for you to eliminate unclarity/implicit/assuming styles of communication.

I haven't a clue.  My point was not to figure out "what" he doesn't want to know.  My point was, imagine for a minute that he has similar frustrations in his relationships...perhaps even his relationship with you.  I would hope that would empower you to approach him from a point of view of empathy...vice your current approach (which I believe we all agree isn't working..right?)

I will simply say that the current communication approach I am sharing is NOT working, because that’s the issue.

I am NOT sharing all the successful communication because I don’t need help/have frustration with that.

So, my point, I could change for these conversations, but I have mustered a lot of energy on other things. I struggle with this because it’s a 20+ year historical behavior that changed and I don’t believe had cause to. My opinion.

So...let's stick with my suggestion of "clarity".  Is your value/belief system such that you can't imagine any reason whatsoever that he would ever be justified in your mind for "withholding" or "thinking through" or (fill in blank) money?    Does his opinion matter about what money is "needed"?

There was a detailed discussion that this money was needed for a large bill. And, my income as well and one or two other sources. It was written down to be clear. And then he withheld and asked to go to a hotel. Why would I spend money on a hotel, in the middle of a pandemic,  10 minutes away when I am trying to pay a debt?

My $ discussion was clear, detailed and written down. His innuendo not so clear. It’s fairly clear to me but I’ll acquiesce that I am inferring.

Perhaps he did.   How would he express his point of view?

Withhold nearly a months worth of pay, I assume. Without a conversation, word...

What does this look like?  What did you do in response?

This is interesting.  It suggests to me that you are overthinking/overanalyzing our communications here...because the assumption/point of view that I approach this story with has very little to do with "taking responsibility for your own part"  (that is an important concept, yet not one I'm using)

Well I wasn’t overthinking it. I was asking if there was anything I could/should do to document his withholding funds.

The line of questions has led to a lot of discussion (overthinking now) but I wasn’t uncertain of my belief it was wrong. And, willing to accept he may disagree.

I don't believe there is a conversation that can make this right or wrong.

I do believe that the process(es) that you are using to communicate with and "accomplish things" in your relationship with your hubby are not getting you the results you appear to desire.  I do believe you should radically change/try different approaches.  (such as explicit clear non-assuming communication).

See above. It was clear, concise and documented. Then he withheld money.

Clarity:  The new approaches may or may not work, but they will give you (us) valuable insight into what is possible in your relationship.

Umm...don't want to make this post too much about me, but I would suggest that my wife believing and taking action on her belief that I have (had) a love child that I revealed to her in a meeting at McDonald's with the baby and Mom and that I snuck that child onto my military insurance by naming the child onto my military insurance by giving the child my wife's unique name...well...I hope that would qualify as "exposure to severe BPD/NPD".

Agree that’s bat crazy, but are you dealing with disorder on a regular basis?  Maybe you are, I am not judging.

I just feel that perhaps your wife is not as challenging as some and so you lean to make things better, including for many who that really is not possible because it’s almost suicidal the devastation some disordered people inflict. Not all r/s can be saved.

I applaud you for offering other ideas and approaches. I would have to give up my job and pretty much all else to stay on top of this disorder. Don’t want to anymore. Nothing in it for me.


I

agree.

I don't believe you are trying to be difficult.  I do believe you are having a hard time seeing/understanding/implementing different points of view. 

I also think the use of words like "normal" are possibly contributing to keeping you stuck.

As in "I want normal" (with the implication that he doesn't).  What if...imagine with me here.  What if in his heart of hearts...his version or normal and yours don't match?  What if...what if he does't want to be difficult with you...he just wants "normal".

Super clear our normals don’t match. Mine is a more conventional normal. I’m okay veering and being inclusive, but not taking down and demoralizing others. Not with manipulation. Pandemic has put it on regular full display. Too much. Too much. Too much.

(I don't know that he has these exact thoughts/feelings)  Yet I do think it's important that you consider the possibility and consider ways to change the dynamic between you two.

Great question to ask him.

I make an observation that the "intimacy thing" is really on your mind at a time when he hasn't explicitly asked for it, nor has anyone else explicitly or implicitly suggested you should do this. 

Your husband may or may not mean this in his suggestions/ideas. 


The legal approach is to get lawyer to file suit/divorce action and get the support the law will allow.

I think there is a strong possibility that the resources could be gotten by you changing your approach.  At a minimum it will get you more information about your future relationship with him.

It doesn't appear to me that you are "over" the conversation.  It appears to matter to you a great deal.  Furthermore it doesn't appear to me that there was an explicit conversation...it appears to me there were lots of hints and assumptions and lots of fraught feelings about sex and money (which are hot topics in just about every relatioship)


Yes to approach.  No to hints and assumptions.  Yes to explicit communications. 

Best,

FF

Again, I am over it.  I came to find out if there was a way to protect myself and my kids from his refusal to support. The color around it is valuable if you think it is.

Thanks FF...appreciate the challenges.

[formflier]

 
I'm so sorry that you had to experience your hubby while grieving.  

So..for clarity, the money for the bill has been deposited and the "presenting issue" has been solved..right?

What do you think of Babyducks comments about "matching" in your values?  Can you expand on that?

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

I'm so sorry that you had to experience your hubby while grieving.  

So..for clarity, the money for the bill has been deposited and the "presenting issue" has been solved..right?

What do you think of Babyducks comments about "matching" in your values?  Can you expand on that?

Best,

FF

The money has been deposited. My belief is it is a temporary stop gap. His family law friends may have advised this wouldn’t look good.

Only time will tell.

I think he states shared values, but his actions do not reflect that. I will even go on to suggest he mimics others to be perceived along typical-ish lines, but there are occasions that NPD/BPD break through.

He accepts all responsiblity for good things, blames others, usually me, for less than things. Will find some shred of responsibility.

He requires daily accolades of how great, smart, etc., he is.  This stepped up during pandemic. Our youngest tells him he is always bragging. H acts like it’s a joke and laughs.

I believe I have over communicated in every arena and “over” simply because he has weaponized things that are important to me in attempts to manipulate me. He knows what matters to me and if he wants something, he will threaten those values to get the reaction he wants.

I have seen him do a smooth 180 in a discussion with adult children in an attempt to manipulate/control.  Super confusing to kid.

I’ve stopped too much affection of kids in front of him as he seems to get upset. I don’t want his focus to turn to a kid he believes is getting too much attention. It’s a real concern.

Happy to consider another perspective, but will take convincing, compelling evidence/reason and not just an exercise.  Please remember, I communicate with others all day, some tough conversations, but do not have trouble.

He does. Calls his partner autistic, mentally challenged, disgusting, often enough.

LMK what you think.

[UBPDHelp]

My previous marriage was to an extreme BPD/NPD/ASPD, and I dealt with some similar issues regarding financial responsibility and intimacy.

After his extremely ugly behavior, I had zero desire to be intimate with him. However, in his mind, I was “withholding intimacy” and actively doing something to hurt him.

He couldn’t understand that I was flat out disgusted by him and that translated to never ever wanting to have sex with him ever again. Yet I did at times to placate him and it was as you said—I felt like a prostitute.

My advice to you is to follow your feelings and if you don’t want intimacy, don’t do it in trade for getting bills paid.

You describe it so exactly.

My H adds also calling me horrible names and shaming around intimacy. I don’t know if your ex did that.  It’s like the icing on the cake.

I do not intend to trade intimacy. I can’t even fathom it and am confused how he could.

Thanks Cat...it helps to know my view is not entirely off the mark. Or that it has to be my responsibility to “fix”.

[formflier]

I’ve stopped too much affection of kids in front of him as he seems to get upset. I don’t want his focus to turn to a kid he believes is getting too much attention. It’s a real concern.

So...please take a big breath and stay at the 30k view. 

Can you see how you are altering your relationship with children in order to appease/manage/influence a disordered persons emotions, so that he will do or not do things you worry he may or may not do.

I hear a constant theme in your posts that you are worn out by him..by the relationship...by what you have to do to get near "normal"...etc etc

Can you consider the possibility that you are worn out by your attempts to manage someone else?

Can you consider the possibility that you are worn out by your attempts to manage your concerns/emotions by controlling someone else?

These have been incredibly uncomfortable things for me to sort through in my life/my relationship...so I would advise you to be prepared for self care...since I would imagine this will be uncomfortable for you to reflect on.

We are rooting for you!

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

So...please take a big breath and stay at the 30k view. 

Can you see how you are altering your relationship with children in order to appease/manage/influence a disordered persons emotions, so that he will do or not do things you worry he may or may not do.

Of course I see it.

That said, I have 90% stopped doing anything that I don’t want. Not a “I don’t give a xxx” but I won’t change what I want to appease him.

BUT, I can’t help notice he gets meaner to a kid who I’ve shown affection in front of him. He’s long decided one kid is my favorite.  Not true...I love all my kids but this child and I are similar so he assumes is my favorite.

My kids get a ton of affection from me and moral support, etc., I just temper it around him some.

I hear a constant theme in your posts that you are worn out by him..by the relationship...by what you have to do to get near "normal"...etc etc

Can you consider the possibility that you are worn out by your attempts to manage someone else?

Can you consider the possibility that you are worn out by your attempts to manage your concerns/emotions by controlling someone else?

Yep and not willing to do it anymore. I’ve never tried to control him though. I’ve respected his feelings and opinions BUT when they counter mine, in order to support myself it might appear as a control of him, but it’s not the motive.

These have been incredibly uncomfortable things for me to sort through in my life/my relationship...so I would advise you to be prepared for self care...since I would imagine this will be uncomfortable for you to reflect on.

We are rooting for you!

Best,

FF

I am aggravated for sure about what I perceive as manipulations trying to get a reaction.

But, I’m no longer seeking his approval to move. I am doing what I want while operating in a “normal” capacity.

I am not savvy in the psychology speak and I mean no disrespect with “normal”...I simply don’t know how to describe the wide range of morally, ethically acceptable behaviors or how to categorize those that are not (the bat sh!t crazy I said before is a preferred, but not approved, description).

Please do not read too much into my word choices.

[formflier]

  I just temper it around him some.

  I’ve never tried to control him though. 

 

I hope you can see this.

How can both of your statements be true?

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

 

I hope you can see this.

How can both of your statements be true?

Best,

FF

This feels immensely nitpicky.

I don’t try to control him to get something I want, unless you count some selfish wish that my child not become the focus of his irritation because H believes child is being favored.

How could anyone ever do anything if this is the standard? 

Why do you not rob a bank?  Social norms? Moral obligation? Ethics?  Or are you trying to control the police not arresting you?

I mean tell me what action is done that doesn’t result in control of situation or person?  Where does it stop?

Screaming that if I do this or that, he will divorce, leave, break some sh!t is manipulative control. It is negative control.

Perhaps I simply don’t agree that there is anything to discuss about right or wrong. Wait, there is no right or wrong, correct?

But I disagree.

It is wrong how he has treated me, the kids, his partner. Not always wrong but when it is it is so entirely wrong it is not even a question.

Self reflection is not helping me. I know my sh!t, I own my sh!t, but I mistreat no one. I am not able to go in circles with taking ownership of his behavior or what I do to protect from it. It’s not ideal, but it is the best I can do.  Maybe because it’s all I’m willing to do now.

Not to say I couldn’t benefit from therapy but I simply will not be responsible for his treatment of me. There is nothing I have done to deserve it. Not even a question...to me.

[Cat Familiar]

It makes sense that you would choose not to give your child affection in your husband’s presence if that would cause him to zero in on that child and be aggressive. I’m sure you are affectionate with your children in private.

Ideally you wouldn’t have to do that. And ideally your husband wouldn’t be mentally ill.

In a similar way, I don’t behave as familiarly with some of our cats when my husband is around. Because I can have more rapport with animals, my husband can feel dejected and say, “They like you more than they like me,” which is probably true because I spend more time with them.

But it’s such a childish and ridiculous notion that he is comparing himself to me and how the animals respond can lead him to feeling “less than”, it seems prudent to modify my behavior in his presence just to avoid the unnecessary melodrama.

[formflier]

Not criticism here...hopefully this will illustrate my "point".

There is nothing inherently "wrong" or "unhealthy" about the choices UBPDHelp and Cat Familiar are making to attempt influence on a disordered spouse.

Cat Familiar..please correct me if I'm off base, but by and large your approach seem to be working for you..correct?

UBPDHelp...please correct me if I'm off base, but by and large your approach doesn't seem to be working for you..correct?

Pragmatism seems to rule these relationships...what works for one..may not for another.


Switching gears:  UBPDHelp..what is your understanding of the difference between right and wrong and dichotomous thinking?

Best,

FF

[formflier]

I don’t try to control him to get something I want

This is good. 

How do you go about getting what you want in this relationship?

Best,

FF

[babyducks]

This feels immensely nitpicky.

that must be uncomfortable.   

I would suggest that these type comments are not nitpicky but a sincere attempt/ask of looking at things from a different perspective.

Perhaps I simply don’t agree that there is anything to discuss about right or wrong. Wait, there is no right or wrong, correct?

UBPDHelp, these are fraught topics.    this a difficult medium to communicate in, with no tone of voice or facial clues.   

Is it helping you to engage in theoretical conversations about whether it is right or wrong to rob a bank?

Being fused to the idea/thinking of What Is Right, and What is Wrong is not a problem solving step. 

It is wrong how he has treated me, the kids, his partner. Not always wrong but when it is it is so entirely wrong it is not even a question.

Do you understand that the only one debating this is... you? 

I've read this thread several times.   And I feel comfortable saying no one is interested in who is right and who is wrong.   No one gives a  about that.   What the overarching concern has been is how you might take steps so you feel better, you feel more comfortable and you feel more secure.

Not to say I couldn’t benefit from therapy but I simply will not be responsible for his treatment of me. There is nothing I have done to deserve it. Not even a question...to me.

Do you think it is possible to entertain the suggestions made here without defense or distress?   Do you really want to continue the argument you are having at home with your H with some anonymous folks on an internet posting board?

To clarify, I have had zero reaction to this latest round of financial manipulation.

Currently I am too exhausted to manage disordered communication. Emotionally, physically, literally.

I also am too exhausted to perfectly express my views.

I’m exhausted of trying to help him feel better.

Too much. Too much.

You might not have reacted in the moment with him, but clearly you are having a reaction.   I would suggest you are having a strong reaction and you have internalized it.   I would also suggest this reaction is impacting how you view the comments here.

I am going to be blunt.   I do not think your husband is "right".   I find his behavior reprehensible.   Frankly he and his behavior is not my primary concern.    His behavior is predictable and immature. 

what I am concerned about is you.   your exhaustion.    frustration.    what you self report as muddled thinking.   your medical issues.   your stress level.   it very much seems to me that the only way to have a productive conversation that might actually help support you is if we find a way out of this circular argument and leave defensiveness and anxious protection at the door.

'Ducks

[UBPDHelp]

It makes sense that you would choose not to give your child affection in your husband’s presence if that would cause him to zero in on that child and be aggressive. I’m sure you are affectionate with your children in private.

Ideally you wouldn’t have to do that. And ideally your husband wouldn’t be mentally ill.

In a similar way, I don’t behave as familiarly with some of our cats when my husband is around. Because I can have more rapport with animals, my husband can feel dejected and say, “They like you more than they like me,” which is probably true because I spend more time with them.

But it’s such a childish and ridiculous notion that he is comparing himself to me and how the animals respond can lead him to feeling “less than”, it seems prudent to modify my behavior in his presence just to avoid the unnecessary melodrama.

Thanks Cat.  I’m glad you understand what I’m saying.

And I especially appreciate your comment...

Ideally you wouldn’t have to do that. And ideally your husband wouldn’t be mentally ill.

Entirely true. I could wish and wish for things, but never get them. I wish this was not my circumstance. It is though.

Thank you for sharing.

[UBPDHelp]

Not criticism here...hopefully this will illustrate my "point".

There is nothing inherently "wrong" or "unhealthy" about the choices UBPDHelp and Cat Familiar are making to attempt influence on a disordered spouse.

Cat Familiar..please correct me if I'm off base, but by and large your approach seem to be working for you..correct?

UBPDHelp...please correct me if I'm off base, but by and large your approach doesn't seem to be working for you..correct?

Pragmatism seems to rule these relationships...what works for one..may not for another.


Switching gears:  UBPDHelp..what is your understanding of the difference between right and wrong and dichotomous thinking?

Best,

FF

FF, please recall that I posted on the Divorce board.  Someone moved me here.

My question was a legal question about whether I needed to document that he was withholding support.

I gave context which has spiraled off to trying to sort out communication.

Why are you certain that I can “control” his response/reaction to me IF I just find the “correct” way to communicate with him?  Have you considered that some people may be so disordered that it will NEVER matter what you do or say, they have so little self worth or conscience, that it will simply not matter?

I have been calm. I have been not calm,  I have explained then I learned about JADE.  I have tried validation, ego support, accolades, etc., etc. 

He is not interested. He can operate fine, but when he is unhappy, he projects that and gaslights me. Currently he does not even acknowledge me.

It’s no matter, I am planning and feeling more confident everyday

I’m not perfect, I am perfectly flawed but I am kind to others and respectful. I’m okay with who I am and the effort I’ve put in. This can’t be made right.

So, I’m not looking to rehabilitate the r/s. Ultimately communication will occur, but for now I just want protection.

[UBPDHelp]

that must be uncomfortable.    

At the risk of sounding snarky, no it’s not uncomfortable, I believe it is off base.

Honestly I think it’s ridiculous to compare the “control” of MY behavior to temper affection in front of disordered, mentally ill H, who then is mean to child receiving affection...

to a disordered mentally ill H screaming he will divorce me and leave me penniless and take the kids away from me because I accidentally bought diet soda OR looked at him funny OR forgot to pickup the dry cleaning.

See, the way I see it, in the first scenario, I “controlled” MY behavior to prevent harm.

In the second, he used fear, volume and intimidation to control my behavior through threat.

I see them as two entirely different things. You are certainly entitled to disagree and shake your head that I just don’t get it. I think it is nitpicky and I’m not uncomfortable with it, I’m honestly annoyed by the comparison.

I would suggest that these type comments are not nitpicky but a sincere attempt/ask of looking at things from a different perspective.

‘ducks I have looked at every perspective. I simply do not do things to control him. He does often do and say things to control me and others.

You can’t know for sure and I wouldn’t expect you to.

UBPDHelp, these are fraught topics.    this a difficult medium to communicate in, with no tone of voice or facial clues.    

Is it helping you to engage in theoretical conversations about whether it is right or wrong to rob a bank?

It’s not helping me but I believe it may help illustrate why I think the comparison is nitpicky.

Being fused to the idea/thinking of What Is Right, and What is Wrong is not a problem solving step.  

Do you understand that the only one debating this is... you?  

I've read this thread several times.   And I feel comfortable saying no one is interested in who is right and who is wrong.   No one gives a   about that.   What the overarching concern has been is how you might take steps so you feel better, you feel more comfortable and you feel more secure.

Well my question on the divorce board was about withholding support. I got a little direction, but the side conversation took off.

Look, I’ve tried to repair and redirect communication, it lands me to a   ty place every time. I concede I got help too late. At a point where my stamina and palatable-ness of trying is exhausted (as in done, not necessarily tired).

Do you think it is possible to entertain the suggestions made here without defense or distress?   Do you really want to continue the argument you are having at home with your H with some anonymous folks on an internet posting board?

You might not have reacted in the moment with him, but clearly you are having a reaction.   I would suggest you are having a strong reaction and you have internalized it.   I would also suggest this reaction is impacting how you view the comments here.

As you point out you don’t know my state. I am not distressed. I am not even defending. I don’t believe the nitpicky comment requires defense.

You can believe it is impacting my view.

I have taken great strides to get financially secure, make plans, seek legal advice. I am stuck with how to tell if the lawyer is up to what will be a challenge and trying to settle that.

I added more background to the concern as I believed context can impact recommendations, but it has be construed as wanting that help and that I’m distraught over it. I’m not. I’ve resigned that it is going to be rough, but better. Communication will need to happen but for now legal rights are my top priority after my kids.

I am going to be blunt.   I do not think your husband is "right".   I find his behavior reprehensible.   Frankly he and his behavior is not my primary concern.    His behavior is predictable and immature.  

what I am concerned about is you.   your exhaustion.    frustration.    what you self report as muddled thinking.   your medical issues.   your stress level.   it very much seems to me that the only way to have a productive conversation that might actually help support you is if we find a way out of this circular argument and leave defensiveness and anxious protection at the door.

'Ducks

Thanks ‘ducks.  My frustration here is more that this detracted to improving communication and looking at myself.

Those will come but my immediate need is withholding support and if it should be documented in some way.

I have my own money, my own job, my own health care and dental and disability and so on. I am not distressed because I don’t have to rely on him.

And found out the impetus of his behavior has nothing to do with me. He’s being sued at work and he’s distraught. So now I know what feelings he’s trying to manage by being horrible to me.

I am only trying to clarify how I feel...

[Cat Familiar]

I like to look at things from a strategic perspective. From what you’ve written recently, I gather that you are biding your time, getting your ducks in a row, with the intent to divorce.

The advice we can offer in this case will be different from advice if you were planning to remain in the relationship and wanted help to improve communication.

Lessening conflict is important in either circumstance. What would be important in staying would be to build bridges so that he might get a glimpse of your world and how he could improve the way he relates to you.

Since you are planning on divorcing him, this is a moot point at this time. Your primary task is to lessen conflict and to be able to communicate about your children.

Unfortunately now is not the time and place for feeling understood, appreciated, and treated respectfully. It would be nice if it happened, but this is not your primary objective. Lessening conflict, maintaining boundaries, and being safe, both physically and emotionally, are far greater concerns.

[formflier]

Since you are planning on divorcing him, this is a moot point at this time.  

I would agree it will be/or is moot...if UBPDHelp gets a lawyer, files for divorce and gets court ordered support coming in.

My understanding is she has interviewed a lawyer or perhaps 2, and I generally get a sense she is concerned the ones she has talked to are not "the type" for taking on a disordered person in divorce (that also happens to be an attorney).  So...she essentially has no legal protection.

So..while posting about a financial bill/issue on the divorce board it occurred to me that this issue would resolve itself much quicker through communication, rather than any sort of legal process.

As it turns out...it doesn't appear he withheld any money at all.  It would appear he took more time to think things through (in his own way) and then deposited his paychecks and I hope/assume this bill has been paid.  

Perhaps this will help UBPDHelp relax a bit and be more introspective.

UBPDHelp,

I'm concerned that it doesn't appear you are even willing to consider the possibility that you are trying to control your husband's emotions/dysregulations/impact on others.  

Especially when you explicitly state that you are doing this in order that he will be nicer (or less mean) to your child.    Perhaps you are making an argument that in that case your attempt at control is justified because of impact on your child (perhaps you can clarify).

Anyway...I hope you will take some 30K foot view advice.

Either put your effort into getting into T as soon as possible

or

Put you effort into getting a L hired and move forward on legal things as soon as possible.

Either one of those have great potential to lessen the impact of dysfuction on your life.

Best,

FF

[ForeverDad]

I agree with Cat Familiar and will add my perspective in addition to wanting reduced tensions whichever way you go.

If you were trying to repair the relationship then sharing information would expected, you need to do your part ("it takes two") to mend the issues.

However, if you view the relationship as irreparably dysfunctional or even unhealthy then you would be very cautious about what you do share, as in Too Much Information (TMI).  Why?  Because of the risks that doing so could in some way sabotage yourself.

[UBPDHelp]

I like to look at things from a strategic perspective. From what you’ve written recently, I gather that you are biding your time, getting your ducks in a row, with the intent to divorce.

I am. I have a newish job, my credit was dinged so in that regard, I NEED time to pass. I’ve paid every debt and worked my tail off at this job (that H has tried to convince me 10x I should quit).

I didn’t see my life this way. I do NOT take divorce lightly. I have tried to consider if this or that improved, would I feel differently. There are just too many things that would have to change and it would take constant effort (I’m not talking about the effort any marriage takes, this is so much more). And maybe the effort is too much because there is little respect for my feelings. Idk. I’m tired of trying.

The advice we can offer in this case will be different from advice if you were planning to remain in the relationship and wanted help to improve communication.

Agree.  Which is also why I posted on the divorce board about whether withholding familial support should be documented and how.

We will have to communicate. He’s told me we can through a divorce text app that is monitored so we never have to speak to each other. Told me or threatened to cut off all communication and take my kids away from me.

I could be amiable to pleasant conversation for the sake of the kids. He won’t. Recall he has a PD and I have been discarded in my own home as he no longer acknowledges me.

Lessening conflict is important in either circumstance. What would be important in staying would be to build bridges so that he might get a glimpse of your world and how he could improve the way he relates to you.

Since you are planning on divorcing him, this is a moot point at this time. Your primary task is to lessen conflict and to be able to communicate about your children.

I am trying to lessen conflict. I am not reacting to his behavior.  I am including him in dinners (he won’t eat with us) and in asks for store needs, etc. He simply and wholly ignores me.

And, yes I am trying to figure out my next step. L says not to leave house. I want to go someplace else where I can relax more but legally not best move.

At some point he will have no choice but to communicate even if by text. Figure that out when the time comes.

Unfortunately now is not the time and place for feeling understood, appreciated, and treated respectfully. It would be nice if it happened, but this is not your primary objective. Lessening conflict, maintaining boundaries, and being safe, both physically and emotionally, are far greater concerns.

Agree.  Not even trying for being understood or appreciated. Respect feels like a basic human right but not one which he abides by, so I feel I deserve it, I won’t get it.

But less conflict. I don’t react to his attempts to get a reaction. I no longer see most of what he does as impacting me.  Boundaries are in place and I  am doing what I can to lessen disruptions, without making hasty decisions.

Thanks Cat.