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Author Topic: Please help me understand... money woes  (Read 662 times)
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« on: November 27, 2020, 02:07:22 AM »

 

Do we ever leave this forum? This is the only place where you can come to where people understand.
I haven’t been here for a long time but once again I’ve come to ask can you help me understand and feel better?

My story had progressed to where my husband and I were getting along as well as could be expected with his BPD, after having been together for 20 years. Two years ago we sold the final house of a small 3 house development that caused a lot of trauma during the build. I have been doing this sort of thing for 35 years.
When it came to dividing up the profits which were quite a good sum it was decided to divide up into out respective bank accounts as we have never had a joint account. Fine.

Come this Covid year and we had done a long lock down together very happily. Getting along the best ever. However, it now emerges that for the last few months he has reconnected with his UDBPD daughter and they have been scheming to give her his money. Lots of it, practically all he has. She has two rental properties at the moment but wants to build her dream home. She is 45, single and didn’t speak to her father or me for 4 years except to tell me that ‘he doesn’t love you, you know, it’s only cause you’ve got money.’

Naturally he says he’s concerned that her future is secure. So they have now sunk all this money into this new project and she still has a 1 million dollar mortgage. Look I’m not a financial wizard but I was able to own my own home years ago and have had other properties. My husband who is very intelligent... has  a PHD in psychological studies... has no common sense. Indeed has been a bankrupt.

I asked him why he didn’t tell me, his answer was I knew you’d disapprove. I just feel stupid and used. I always wanted him to have financial independence from me and this last development was a way of achieving this. He can be very charming and appear kind but he does have a bullying manner with me, constantly mansplaining but he had never done anything untoward with money nor has he been unfaithful.

Look, the sums involved are not huge, but we were comfortable and I thought secure. We are no longer young and I thought we would be financially OK for anything health wise etc that got thrown at us. Of course he doesn’t have any medical insurance.

He also has another daughter who he hasn’t spoken to for years. I have 3 sons one of whom could do with a little financial help but I had not been doing this.
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« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2020, 12:53:13 PM »

Is this a loan or a gift?

Do you have any plan for protecting your assets?



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« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2020, 01:53:31 PM »



 Virtual hug (click to insert in post) Virtual hug (click to insert in post)

And..is there a paper trail?  A note?  Is your husband on title to the home/investment?

With all these things "it depends" is the answer to if this is smart or not, and that answer can change over time.

I've currently got a house on the market than when sold should significantly shift a lot of capital from "ill-liquid" to the nice spendable kind with lots of zeros in the bank.  

So..I completely understand the feeling of relief that you are talking about (in my case potential relief..), but I've been there done that before...and sent the money back out into other projects and likely will again.

That this was done "in secret"...not good.  FFw and I disagree on lots of things but we have never...NEVER initiated or jumped into projects without talking.

The disagreements were more transactional..."Oh..I thought it was ok to buy xyz for the kitchen" or "I didn't realize we were supposed to pay this yet".

Very different character than a lot of zeros are gone from my bank account and I'm invested in a joint venture that I KNEW you would disapproved of.

Another example that was perhaps "on me".  S20 recently bought his first house.  Sterling credit, had quite a bit of money saved up and it was a property that "everyone" in the family wanted...we had several applications going for mortgages and my son was first to be approved and we had to have an offer in when the property came on the market.

So...the agreement between FFw and I was  "I was going to help make this happen" and to my credit/defense I said I liked the program s20 was using because "gifts" were ok for downpayment.  

So...later on my wife asked me why we "gave" s20 $5k with a gift letter.  And I was like..for his downpayment to tick off a to do list item to move the mortgage forward.

Had I ever sat down and asked my wife if she was ok with the $5k...probably not.  Had I asked if she was ok with "helping"..probably, but I can't prove that.

Again...very different character than her being surprised that our son was buying a house.

Uggg...I hate this for you.  There are important details you need to find out AND please don't let those details change your financial relationships with others (like your kids that could use help).

I'm not saying don't help them...but make sure that you are a positive force and not enabling bad decisions.

 Virtual hug (click to insert in post) Virtual hug (click to insert in post) Virtual hug (click to insert in post)

Best,

FF
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« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2020, 04:56:55 PM »



Hi Cat and FF, nice to hear from you again. I guess you would call this a gift to his daughter. Her place will be in her name only. Regarding the steps I have taken to safeguard my assets . I thought I had done good things. By him taking his share of our profits was enough for him to have cash in the bank and he bought a little country house in his name to do up and hopefully would increase so he would have an inheritance to leave to his daughters . This then allowed me to have the current family home, where we live, and which is in my name only long before I met him, as inheritance for my sons.

Husband was very happy with this arrangement, saying for once in his life he felt secure. But now he has given away his money still has his house but mentioned if he needs money he’ll sell his house. Maybe I’m catastrophising but I can see other daughter coming to light and asking for money as the other daughter got some.

It’s like we are back to square one, where he didn’t have money and I did... the imbalance lead to many a dis regulation a few years ago.
Yes this then leaves me very vulnerable to complaint from him to share the value of the family home (mine)

Also it’s this damn sneaking behind my back which really gets to me. I managed to find a term on the internet called ‘Financial Infidelity’ and that’s how it feels. Shock, denial, rage etc I suppose acceptance will come. Trust from my part has gone. I can’t even look at him ATM and can’t help it but have gone into giving him the silent treatment.

What’s the use of talking or trying to reason with someone who is off the rails. An example of this is him saying his daughter needs this really expensive home for her future security and then brings up how worrying it is that one of my sons and his wife have bought a million dollar home in another city. I managed to say ‘Yes but there are two of them and both working securely.’ I said that his daughter will have more than a million mortgage with no equity in her rental properties. He said... No that’s not right, I wouldn’t have pressed her to take the money. I just replied that he should do the maths, and he said the bank wouldn’t be lending her the money if she couldn’t afford it. ! She does have a good job.
Look hopefully it all works out for her but ‘Greed is good’ shouts out. It’s a values issue. Slow and steady is my preference.

Thank you all for listening. I can’t talk about this with anyone else. My sons have been fantastic in re accepting my husband after the abuse of 5 years ago, same with my friends. If I were to tell them about this they would all leap on me and tell me to leave him. I just wish I didn’t still love him.
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« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2020, 05:37:35 PM »

  Slow and steady is my preference.

 

Solid!  Right up my alley.

You guys have the additional complication of blended family.

If I pass, FFw and my kids get all the we have accumulated and that I have inherited. 

You have to watch out that your lineage "get yours" (it's just us here, so we can be frank)

So...not saying he was intending this, in fact it appears he "only" used his portion...so I'm not saying he is "cheating" you...but he also was not intentional about keeping you in the loop.

Please...do things that help you clear your head.  The "thoughtful" you needs to be present and be intentional about protecting your "sides" stuff. 

I'll keep thinking about this.  Good to hear from you too, although I'm so sorry it's under these circumstances.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2020, 06:20:01 PM »

My husband is a financial advisor, and he almost always advises an "individual, individual, joint for household" setup. Sounds like you don't have anything joint -- certainly fine as it works in your situation.

Financial infidelity is a good, true term. It can happen in many ways. It destroys trust.

Do you have a pre-nup agreement? If not, is this the opportunity to get a list-nuptial agreement to help with regaining trust?

Do you want to rebuild trust?
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« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2020, 06:37:31 PM »

Thank you GaGrl. That is an interesting idea to get a post nup and I will certainly explore the details of it.

As for if I want to regain trust... it is still too soon for truely rational thought on my part. I am full of hurt and anger at him.
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« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2020, 07:51:04 PM »


My purpose is not to defend your husband, but to make sure that you examine all of the possibilities.

1.  Your husband sent this money out of "his" money..right?

2.  What explicit agreements did you have about the use of "his" money or "his" share?

3.  What explicit agreements did you have about the use of "your" money or "your" share?

4.   Same thing...but use the world "implicit" in the questions above.

5.  Same thing...but use the word "assumed" in the questions above.

No judgment here, blame or any of that.  I agree that the term "financial infidelity" is POSSIBLY an appropriate term here.  It also may not be.

I would not be obsessive about replaying conversations in your head or "in a hurry" to replay those.  Don't avoid it either.

There needs to be some structure (somehow) to the process of you coming up with a reasonable "recollection" of what you guys talked about and agreed to.

as a completely separate matter

You may or may not want to make those agreements more clear for the future or you may want to change them...or?

We (I) are in your corner, you seem very smart, deliberate and careful with money.  Emotions (especially romantic ones) can sometimes cloud that.

I'm also not saying that you should never make "emotional" money decisions.  I am saying that when you make those, you should be honest with yourself that you are doing that.

Just like you have built your wealth in a slow and careful way, evaluate your marriage and trust in the same manner, especially if other start to need part of "your" share

Deep breathing...walks..deliberate distraction.  What do you normally do to center yourself? 

Best,

FF

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« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2020, 07:53:32 PM »

  it is still too soon for truely rational thought on my part. I am full of hurt and anger at him.

I'm glad you are introspective and honest with yourself.  Don't be in a hurry to move past this stage...

Best,

FF
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« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2020, 10:22:56 PM »

I'm glad you are introspective and honest with yourself.  Don't be in a hurry to move past this stage...

Best,

FF

I agree. Let this incubate until you feel you can make objective, rational decisions about money.

We have four children between us. My only child has some neurological and psychological issues (Adult ADHD, social phobia, depression and, I suspect, on the autism spectrum at what used to be called Asperger's). One of his daughters is so-dependent with her uBPD/NPD mother as well as her narcissistic, alcoholic partner. We are looking at estate plans that DO NOT give them a lump sum upon our deaths, and each of the arrangements is based on our separate estates.
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« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2020, 08:57:14 AM »

So..I've got 8 kids and right now everything is "per stripis".  Everyone gets even shares and if they pass even though they might have a bajillion kids, it doesn't increase the share to that line.

We are so thankful that none of our kids appear disabled or in need of long term care.  

D10 has some learning stuff going on and will likely be a special effort through school but I think she will be fine.

That's the estate plan and we are open that we are even there because our parental judgment is no longer there...since we are no longer around to exercise it.

For the "real life" plan, we have been open an honest with all our kids that "we don't do fair", since circumstances are different for everyone and their goals are different.  

So...we don't pay a set amount for college, yet we make sure that everyone can get through college by supplementing what they can do first.  

For instance my oldest was in college in TN and my daughter was out in Montana.  We realized that our GI bill dollars (that we had been splitting evenly) went twice as far in Montana (because of very generous yellow ribbon participation)

https://www.va.gov/education/about-gi-bill-benefits/post-9-11/yellow-ribbon-program/

Plus my oldest was in co op program and making insane amounts of money for a college student so we directed all remaining gi bill to our daughter.  I called my son and explained it and he understood.

Now..everyone knows that on some level we are helping our third child buy this house, plus helping do work there and all that.  He bought house at 20 years old and I can already tell our 18 year old is considering how he can "beat" his brother.  

20 year old is definitely most entrepreneurial.  Has already bought, fixed up and sold several cars for profit and is now going after this house deal.

The house deal has given me an opportunity to "with real examples" show how I've done my house business for years.  

So...third child got what they needed to get the house bought, then they get my time and sometimes money for critical turning points in the project or to take advantage of social connections (such as crazy good deals on clearance tile to cover 1400 square feet of flooring)

Long winded way of saying that this is all "out in the open" and "it's just what we do" as a family.  

The secrecy part of your issue sucks, although I think there are several more conversations there to understand it better.

Oh..the other part of what happens in my family is that everyone knows that my help and money comes with questions and conditions designed to make sure I am investing in success.  No issue from me if you want to do your own thing, so ...when my son started buying and selling cars he wanted me to come with him on the first deal but said "I've got my own money...so please don't say anything in the meeting unless I ask."  (seriously..said it just like that)  I got to go on the first one and he said he was going alone on all the rest (they take those training wheels off fast)


Best,

FF

« Last Edit: November 28, 2020, 09:02:21 AM by formflier » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2020, 03:48:11 PM »



Many hurts from the past coming up for me at the moment. Don’t some of us feel years of validating drag you down. Husband will ask me what do I want to do regarding something for example a holiday, I say what I would like to do then he disagrees. He is a contrarian as well as the BPD. It’s like a game played with a two year old who is constantly saying No. Why does he ask... he will only do what ever he wants anyway.

I appreciate the time you’ve put into coming up with those questions FF.

1 Your husband sent his money out of his share?
2 What explicit agreements did you have about the use of his money or his share?
3 What explicit agreements did you have about the use of your money or your share?
4 Same thing but use the word implicit in the questions above?
5.Same thing but use the words assumed in the questions above?

1 Answer is Yes he gave his daughter his money out of ‘his’ share

2&3 Answer We had no explicit agreements how as to we were to use our money

4&5 I guess Herein lies my question to the forum in ‘help me understand’  in that I assumed we had an implicit agreement that we, as a married couple, should tell the other if we were going to give away a lot of our individual money. We share expenses regarding other things very amicably and as I said in my original post he has never done anything weird or out of the ordinary with money before with me. ( red flag of course is that he declared bankruptcy before I met him because he couldn’t or wouldn’t be employed)
I realise money issues are one of the things common to BPD but it had never come up for us before.
This is mainly because he is very tight with money. Thrifty to the extreme and even detriment.

FF while I appreciate this line of questioning, I have over the years read some of your threads about your relationship style and your ‘head of the family stance’ so perhaps my husband and my shared style might seem strange to you but it was working well until this... as I see it ...betrayal. 

Maybe I shouldn’t see it like this’ but surely it is not acceptable for a husband to spend ‘his’ money (couple hundred thousand) on his first family without telling his wife.  Or when blended families are involved do all previous ideas of morals fly out the door. ?
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« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2020, 05:15:52 PM »


Maybe I shouldn’t see it like this’ but surely it is not acceptable for a husband to spend ‘his’ money (couple hundred thousand) on his first family without telling his wife.  Or when blended families are involved do all previous ideas of morals fly out the door. ?

Not at our house, they don't. We set up our wills (which do need to be updated) so that each is the primary inheritor of the other, with personal and sentimental items for each child. We trust that the surviving spouse will then take care of all four children fairly. And that's what my husband's stepmother did 17 years after his dad died -- her two children and his dad's three children had equal shares of the estate. I was impressed.
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« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2020, 05:32:45 PM »

So...(perhaps put aside what to do with this until your emotions have died down some).

I'm still going to agree that this is really bad and I would even support that it "feels like" financial infidelity.  I would support you sharing that feeling with him as long as you also include the acknowledgment that there was no explicit agreement one way or the other.

I would also pivot and say...since it would appear we are on different wavelengths with implicit agreements, we should make some things explicit.  Then work through those.

It is completely undeniable that you guys are on different wavelengths and I would not co mingle any funds until you have explicit agreements.

He shouldn't have done this...we are on your side!

You are obviously good with money.  So...flip this around. 

You found out something very important with a couple hundred grand.  Aren't you glad you know this, without having to add more zeros?

Best,

FF

« Last Edit: November 28, 2020, 05:39:54 PM by formflier » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2020, 06:44:03 PM »

Could it be possible that that he might be experiencing the beginnings of some cognitive decline if this “slip” is very out of character?
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« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2020, 08:56:30 PM »

Well it just got a whole lot worse for me and I don’ mean money wise. We (husband & I) starting talking about the situation.

Anyway as we talked it emerged that he gave her the money 6 months ago and also changed his will.  
We had both made wills and he had practically dictated that mine was to leave him any money I had left and he was to be allowed to stay in our house for 2 years before it was sold and the proceeds went to my sons. Similarly with his previous will I was to get everything except his country house which was to go to his girls. His new will does not mention me at all. As if I don’t exist.  Everything he owns goes to his girls. He actually builds amazing valve amplifiers, and I said ‘can’t I even have one of your Amps’ he just stared at me.

I can’t believe this is happening. 3 days ago I was happy, I thought we were in a good space.  Not the ideal, but doing quite well.  Now another in my face confirmation of how little I really mean to him.  When faced with my tears that inevitably came with this wills talk he muttered ‘Oh please, I can’t stand this maudling self victim performance’ Yep...arrogant, mean and BPD!

Please don’t think of me as a weak weepy woman. I have a life of my own outside our house which he never leaves (because he has no friends) except to visit his country house.  My family love being with me and wish they could come to our house but they can’t because something will happen and husband will get upset.

I truely do not know how to think about all this. Trust is a thing of the past. He will obviously do whatever he wants in any situation and cannot be relied upon to consider me. I guess he will move out when the daughter has built the mansion. (12 months maybe)
           ...

Cat, very interesting that you should say this and there is a possibility this is happening. This morning following the wills and money talk the previous night, as I sat there cup of tea in hand he started a monologue about his favourite political subject and went on and on not even noticing that I was staring out the window.
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« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2020, 09:30:44 PM »


Did he say why he did this?

You need to ask a L if his will is legal.

In some states there are limits to cutting your spouse out of the will.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2020, 10:09:05 PM »

Did he say why he did this?

You need to ask a L if his will is legal.

In some states there are limits to cutting your spouse out of the will.

Best,

FF

Definitely. It does exist in my state -- and there are guidelines for bio children also. Many times, it is 50% to the spouse and the children split the remainder. Any other will requires those who might inherit to sign a waiver.

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« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2020, 05:39:12 AM »


I calmed down enough so that I was able to not Jade. He says the reason he left me out of his will was that he doesn’t want there to be any trouble over his will. He wants it all clear that everything goes to his daughters and this way I wouldn’t be able to contest the will. ? I did mention that by doing it his way might give a judge a reason to give me, his wife, something should  I wish to contest it.

I have never even thought of doing this contesting and in fact it has been my idea all along that he have the money we shared from the development for the specific reason that he have an inheritance to leave his daughters as when he met me he had nothing. Due to BPD he has constructed a fantasy that I will do this. I didn’t imagine he would start giving the money now..

I know where this fantasy comes from. Apparently during the time over the last 4 years, when his daughter wasn’t speaking to him, her old grandmother died or in other words she was my husbands’ ex wife’s mother. The old granny didn’t leave ex wife anything in her will ( left a lot of money to other relatives) and therefore my husbands daughters will not receive any inheritance from their mother. ( she’s impoverished, mad... the daughters don’t speak to her) The ex wife tried to contest the will but left it too late. I’m sure my husband sometimes thinks he is still with his ex wife and puts her bad attributes on to me.


My goodness this is sounding like a soap opera but then as you know the truth is always stranger than fiction.

During this further discussion I did try to complain and put my point of view forward and things got really nasty again. He started the yelling and saying horrible things about me. I think this actually made me feel better because it reinforced the BPD typicalness of the whole situation. He’s not speaking to me at present thank goodness. I have come a long way. I used to take the silent treatment terribly to heart. Now it’s a relief.
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« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2020, 06:22:15 AM »

Now another in my face confirmation of how little I really mean to him. 

I want to address this because, it's not about you. I understand this kind of thinking and I know I have been in this place, but I don't think it's helpful or true.

The Karpman triangle has helped me to understand this kind of behavior and not take it personally. A person can assume all three roles in this. In my own observations, if a person is feeling in "victim mode" then they feel it's OK to "rescue" themselves with whatever action can help ( spending, drinking, being verbally abusive). It's not about the other person at all, even if it has an effect on them. It's not that he thinks this little of you. It's that if someone is taking victim perspective, they aren't thinking beyond that. This, explanation doesn't excuse the behavior- but it isn't personal. There are consequences to any behavior and that comes with the consequences you decide or feel.

I think it's fair to say that most of us in a type of relationship with someone with BPD have co-dependent tendencies. But also I think pwBPD also have co-dependent tendencies with other people. It's hard to imagine this, but I have observed it. Remember, BPD affect the most intimate of relationships, so it is possible your H behaves one way with you and yet, is codependent with his children and other family members. I used to feel hurt by this behavior- but I realize it's more about the position in the relationship than personal.

How you respond is about you, not him. I think financial infidelity is serious breach of trust. Once you know it has happened, I think it's natural to want to protect your own assets and financial situation. These are also the natural consequences to such behaviors- if you know someone is not trustworthy- don't trust them. I don't know the laws in your state about marital property, but if this is- to him emotionally a "my money is mine" " yours is yours" than you take whatever action you need to do to protect yours.

I think you have seen where trying to reason with him doesn't work. This is likely because his actions are feeling based. Rather than talk, take action. This isn't a "leave" message- that's a larger picture. It's about making whatever financial arrangements you need to do now that you are aware of this situation.
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« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2020, 01:57:08 PM »

Now another in my face confirmation of how little I really mean to him. 

This may have been the case "for a moment".  Remember, BPDish feelings come and go and they may make massive decisions that appear impulsive (or are impulsive).

Again..this is only a possibility and it's also entirely possible this has nothing to do with you...nothing at all.

I would consult an L and ask the legal questions about the will set up.

I would also consult a financial advisor and make sure your financial plans are on the right track (regardless of what your hubby does)

Then at some point you will need to have more talks with your hubby (without yelling or anything, perhaps a 3rd party needs to be involved).

Here is the question.  How would he feel and what would he do if you change the provision that he would be allowed to stay in your home for 2 years after your death?

Furthermore, what if you changed it without discussing with him and he found out he had lost this protection for 6 months or so. 

It won't go well, but you don't need to do any financial planning with him until he can get through this.

If he can't, then the question is..."Do you make deals with people that abrogate those deals?"

Then organize your life around the answer to that question.
 
As an aside, I'm not a fan of the two year provision.  Does that mean the estate stays open and probate open for 2 years?  ugg...draining your money away from your kids so your hubby can live there rent free?

I suggest as a separate matter you protect your heirs (your hubby doesn't want to be in that pot)...

Let your hubby protect himself.  After all he has kids that will look after him...not your concern.

Who is your executor (should not be your hubby)  Make it easy on them by doing the work now with a lawyer to get assets to your heirs easily.

I think you should consider putting the house in a revocable trust and naming one of your children as backup trustee (you are primary).  Upon your death they are to shift the title of the house (which will reset capital gains) and then whatever else your trust directs them to do.

Hubby can rent from them (or not).

Best,

FF



Anyway...

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« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2020, 02:57:13 PM »

Thank you Not Wendy and FF. Excellent analysis and advice from both. I will write more later on. Thanks to you too GaGirl and of course Cat, your points of view have been helpful.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2020, 03:02:26 PM by townhouse » Logged
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