She knows my feelings about this...

[Skip]

Might be better to focus on what your pwBPD is trying to accomplish that to focus on "safety of the child".  

Sort of a "oh well sure you will be a better parent after a run, alone time or whatever she is off to do and then kind of add an "of course kids are welcome over here" or "i can stop by"

Then let's say this happens 10 times in a month and they are left alone 5 or 6 times.  That's better than being alone 15 times.

This is a constructive action and a healthy way to look at these things.

I think it will help to think in terms of what falls within parental prerogative when there is a divorce.

Certainly a name or religion change, a major surgery, or adoption should be a joint decision and rarely falls within parental prerogative - both parents need to have a say and either compromise or get a third party to make the call.

But what about the long term boyfriend/girlfriend staying overnight - to pick a hard one. Does one parent have the right to make this call in their home? Does the other parent have a right to meddle in this (with the ex or the kids)? In a healthy situation, is this parental prerogative?

I think this is where the courts and CPS give a wide birth to parental prerogative to the dismay of many parents who want to influence the other parents behavior. The courts have come to this based on the simple observation that parents who don't have the wherewithal to work things out in marriage certainly won't have that skill in divorce and the cure (asking them to work it out) is likely more damaging than the issue at hand.

Custody agreements often define joint decisions very narrowly and parental prerogative very broadly. This custody agreement is still forming. Should it deviate from the norms? How?

[Enabler]

Morning all, thanks for all your contributions here, sorry for the delay in responding but I had Christmas here then stayed with my sister for a few days to allow W to stay here with D12.

So small update. D7 and D10 were left alone again last week, this time for a haircut for a couple of hours. D10 mentioned that W had specifically said to contact her first before contacting me to which I said "great".

So, I don't know if anyone else does, but I see nuance in what "calling Dad" looks like. Clearly there's the example where D10 rings NL, tells NL she's alone and NL rocks round there at breakneck speed and says "D10 and D7, W should never ever leave you alone in the house, she is a bad person and clearly doesn't love you". I think we can all agree that is very damaging. Then there's an example of D10 rings NL, tells NL she's alone and NL says "You okay with that? Let me know if you need me for anything, this is my plans for the next few hours, I'm here if you need me". Even this latter example has nuance as well... D10 is a child, she can't necessarily do all adult things so she has limitation, but she can stretch and learn to have confidence in her ability to stretch herself to be more competent, I get that, and I encourage that when she is here as well. I typically encourage my children to problem solve with support (if they ask for it) rather than problem solve for them. I would much rather act as 'coach'. D10 knows this and is keen to have independence so will usually reel off a list of things she's done to mitigate her circumstances in the process of asking for help or guidance. She knows I won't just jump.

So lets assume D10 reaches the bounds of her childish capability, it's not an emergency but it's more than she can/should deal with. Who's lane is it to intervene on D10's behalf to do "adult things"? Grandparents? I am clearly a backstop somewhere in the hierarchy, but where?

With regards to parental prerogative, my personal opinion would be that as long as it's within the broad bounds of social norms then it has to be allowed to slide... as uncomfortable as that might be. I believe we have unequivocally confirmed that D7 being left with D10 is not within the broad bounds of what is agreed to be socially or professionally acceptable. I think you are also confusing matters by your example Skip. The example of boyfriends staying over would be an example of something my D's would be requesting i.e. they are requesting adult responsibilities, rather than the case of being left alone where they have not requested responsibility and in the example of D10 looking after D7 have verbalised they definitely DO NOT want adult responsibility. As much as I do think parental prerogative is a very challenging ground to look forward to, there is a clear difference in my mind between moving a boundary because children have requested additional bandwidth and maybe THEY think they are mature enough, to forcing children to adopt more grown up behaviour through no choice of their own. Yes I do think this kind of herding behaviour has it's place when a child is not effectively adopting age appropriate responsibilities, but as per above, I think we've agreed that isn't the case. This isn't age appropriate. I also see difference in as much as this is not a "public" decision. My W would be socially embarrassed (family, friends, employer, church) if it were known that she left D7 with D10 for several hours. This isn't a rational choice, this is a swerve. Allowing D's to drink at a party at 14 or have a boyfriend to stay at 14/15 would be public. It might be considered liberal by many but it would be a publicly known. D's would be able to freely tell whoever as "their choice" as well rather than knowing they need to keep it a secret.

This is a very difficult topic to navigate even excluding the complications of communication issues and someone who abrogates agreements. I appreciate that the marriage and certainly parenting in the marriage did not function and therefore I need to learn alternative ways to resolve these issues. My D's need to know they have support, they need a coach, and in certain circumstances they need a back stop. In certain circumstances they need specific support, but holistically they need support/coaching/back-stop in changing my W's behaviour to align her better to generally agreed social/professionally agreed norms. If my W is unreliable, what level of support/coach/back stop is appropriate... and if not me, who is the right person? That person needs to be effective.

NL

[Fian]

If my W is unreliable, what level of support/coach/back stop is appropriate... and if not me, who is the right person? That person needs to be effective.

Ideally you would discuss this with your wife and make plans that you can both agree.  If you can come to agreement, ideally you/your wife would be the first person your child calls in an emergency depending on who is watching the child at the time, and the other in case the first is not reachable.  Grand parents could be a second option if that was viewed by your wife as a better option.  If you don't have your wife's agreement on such things, I would not involve the grand parents.  Without an agreement, it won't solve anything, and just involves even more people in the drama.

[Skip]

holistically they [my daughters]need support/coaching/back-stop in changing my W's behaviour...

A more conventional, family oriented, solution might be to encourage D12 to stay with mom 2 days a week (not nights unless she is ready) and ask mom to try to do her errands on those days.

This is win for mom - it help rehbilitte her relationship with D12 - she  would snap it up. It's a win for D12 - she is pleasing both parents and getting them to work together and she being a hero in the family - and she gets to do it on her terms (not stay the night). It's a win for D10. It's a win for NL in that in mitigates your concerns about mom's occasional absences.

All this can be done in the spirit of family cooperation. It puts resentments aside, in favor of doing the best for the children.

There is no need for any of it to be judgemental or remedial.

[Enabler]

Thanks Skip and Fian,

Fian, agreements are not adhered to. Strong parenting ideals and idealistic plans come out of W’s mouth but are no sooner abandoned. A cornerstone of many of the issues are that things happen in the shadows where accountability is limited. My W would be reluctant to make grandparents second call (preferable for me to enable me to keep in my lane more) as it places a layer of accountability, someone ‘out of the shadows’ so to speak. My W would not be doing these things in the light where someone was able to hold her accountable.

Skip, D12 is not ready to enter W’s home let alone agree to babysit her siblings. I’m not sure you’re grasping the dynamic re my W leaving the kids. This isn’t due to lack of available time. D12 being available to babysit at specific times wouldn’t change the dynamic. At the moment the parenting plan is as follows:

D12 with me 100% nights, W has unrestricted access to D12 during her parenting time. D12 refuses to go to her home.

D7 & D10 - I pick up from school on Friday and keep kids till Tuesday. W picks up from school on Tuesday and keeps kids overnight. I pick up from school on Wednesday and keep kids till Friday. W picks kids up on Friday and keeps kids till Tuesday. I pick up Tuesday and keep overnight. W pick up Wednesday and keeps till Friday.

There is sufficient time when W does not have children to run errands. With the smallest modicum of planning and foresight things can be arranged for times when she doesn’t have the children. I can only guess what that time is filled with but I’m pretty sure it’s not used productively  to prepare for the time when she is restricted by the children. Your suggestion gives her more free time but it only goes to rescue W’s (now encouraging a child to rescue hmmmm!) lack of organisation. Do you think W is more or less likely to plan her time better if she knows that there are more periods of time where she can dump responsibilities on other people?

I’m also not sure what’s in this for D12? She no fool and being an unpaid babysitter of her siblings whilst mum swans around doing as she pleases at a whim will soon alienate her further. Although I don’t have full clarity from D12 as to why she refuses to go to W’s house, I’m pretty sure avoiding chaos is one of them. She doesn’t like surprises and craves certainty, I offer that clear concise level of predictability, I can say with certainty that there is no way on earth that D12 would knowingly walk into a situation that was the polar opposite and a distraction from her own interests.

Enabler/NL

[formflier]

This is a very difficult topic to navigate even excluding the complications of communication issues and someone who abrogates agreements. I appreciate that the marriage and certainly parenting in the marriage did not function and therefore I need to learn alternative ways to resolve these issues.  

New Life,

I think I just cross posted with NL's latest post.

I've been considering your threads and situation for a while.  The pain of realizing it's possible this is a "no win" situation with those your love the most (your children) is tough.  Many of us have been there.

I've been there and am there with someone that "abrogates agreements".  That's a term I've used for a while, so I took notice when you used it.

Can you pause for a moment and try on some "axioms" for size?  Please do this while wearing your "Dad hat".

1.  There is no good solution, but better is still better than status quo or even descending into worse.

2.  Leadership is often a thankless task, yet still has rewards when you know those you love are safer than before.

3.  As a Dad, we want to keep our kids out of as much drama/hurt/pain as possible.


4.  Investments in relationships take time (sometimes even long seasons) before you can harvest rewards.  (I'm a farmer so this comes fairly easily to me, yet others may have no background in this..where are you at on this?)

Therefore...

How can you move forward with solutions that let the kids involved have the best chance of "just being kids"?

How can you move forward with solutions that don't inflame (or perhaps even soothe) dysfunction that has existed in the parenting relationships?  

I'll hush for now.   After you read this a couple of times, does it feel like a new way to approach the issue?

Best,

FF

[Fian]

When I say discuss things with your wife, the point isn't to change her behavior, the point is to present a unified front on communication. Kids, your mom and I discussed this, and this is your emergency plan, you first call the parent of the house you are staying the night, then the other parent if the first is not available.

One other observation is you spend a lot of time thinking about what your kids want.  Why not say the following?  D12, I want you to watch D7 for the next few hours.  This will make D7 safer.  No, you don't get anything out of it, but don't you want D7 to be safe?

[Skip]

The old issue of leaving the kids (D10 and D7) at home on their own is cropping up again and again. 2hrs on Saturday to take D12 for a haircut and hang out with her here...

The issue that opened this thread with was that stbx wife left D10, D7 at home, during her parenting time, to be at your house to see D12 and to get D12's haircut. Her parenting time is complicated by the fact that two children stay at her house and one stays at your house and, of course,  CoViD-19.

I think the points made in this thread are two fold:

there are positive cooperative things you can do in the best interest of your children - but it means being positive, and prioritizing the kids over being judgmental and letting go of opportunities to embarrass, punish, and being deliberately unhelpful to stbx wife if you don't want to do that, then (parallel parent) stay out of it and let her work it out with the girls and her new life. the situation is new and it takes time for water will seek its own level, but it will.

Many psychologist would recommend to start with parallel parenting and as time goes on (maybe 12 months), start cooperating a little at a time as each parent earns it.

Right now, she is not earning anything with you. But at the same time, you aren't earning anything with her. She burned a lot of bridges when she started dating. You burned a lot of bridges when she separated and the girls needed you two to be a united front. There is likely more inevitable bridge burning coming as you do your financial settlement. It's going to take sometime to heel this. It's going to take some time to realize that the children having a healthy relationship with both parents is more important than the bickering and battles.

... the point is to present a unified front on communication. Kids, your mom and I discussed this, and this is your emergency plan, you first call the parent of the house you are staying the night, then the other parent if the first is not available.

Kids like structure and the like knowing the parents get along. This brings them grat peace.

How can you move forward with solutions that let the kids involved have the best chance of "just being kids"?

How can you move forward with solutions that don't inflame (or perhaps even soothe) dysfunction that has existed in the parenting relationships?  

Excellent questions to ponder.

[defogging]

Enter through the side door, not the front door.  Coach the kids up, teach them how to manage these situations.  If your situation is anything like mine, any words spoken with exPDw will fall on deaf ears, cause her to do more of the same, and leave the kids at home for longer times.  Trying to work it out with her opens the door to conflict.  Shut that door and solve the problem a different way.

Instead, give your kids the resources for what to do when Mom or Dad falls ill, has a heart attack or whatever.  Your kids are old enough to stay at home alone.  Teach them the skills they need to deal with it.  Parallel parenting means leaving your ex out of the equation when it's in your house.  It also means you're out of the equation at her house.  So, deal with it and give kids that are old enough to handle it the tools to handle it in either house.

Remember that parenting is a job you're supposed to work yourself out of.  At 18 your kids should be able to handle the world, your job is to teach them how to do that and leave you in the rear view.

[Enabler]

Thanks everyone for your inputs.

So, thinking about the points made above the solution appears to be 2 fold, teach skills and demonstrate more optimal behaviour. So this is where I see the balance or knife edge I'm trying to navigate. I would say that I am more inclined to push skills and independent behaviour than my average peers, I'm not suggesting I take D7 out to the woods to shoot an assault rifle but these things are all relative. Most things are a teaching/learning experience and I'm considerably more inclined to encourage the kids to 'do it themselves' when opportunities arise, even if it involves risk. A silly example that I can think of would be rather than having special child friendly cooking knives I teach and supervise the children how to cut safely with the razor sharp japanese chefs knives. As defogging quite rightly pointed out, parenting is a job I'm supposed to be working myself out of and I'd like to think I was setting the girls onto a healthy trajectory towards a flourishing independence. Risks always exist but it's a matter of how we learn to manage those risks (like holding your fingers in when using a chefs knife) that can vastly alter the outcomes.

The UK has now gone into it's 3rd wave of lockdown and as of today schools are closed, however yesterday schools were open and we were advised that we should minimise parental attendance at school and where possible our children should make their own way there and back. I took this as a good opportunity to work towards D7 taking herself too and from school. The plan was to progressively lengthen the distance D7 walked on her own and leave her / meet her further and further away from school... till such point she could do the whole journey herself and safely cross the couple of roads en-route. D7 was happy with this and embraced the opportunity for independence. It wasn't optimal but was necessary for the risk management of me, the staff at school and other parents. It was a bigger step than we might have taken with D10 and D12 at 7 but the situation meant it appropriate.

So, teaching can happen, does happen and will always happen. But the flip side of the knife edge is that there's one thing making big steps and taking risk and learning to manage that risk when there's a global pandemic (arguably out of any adults control) OR learning to use a knife because we like eating melon and to get melon it requires cutting i.e. D's want something so they're learning how to get it themselves, and there's another thing learning skills because someone can't get their act together enough to fulfil their role effectively. That doesn't sit right but clearly has to happen.

So the next point is modelling optimal behaviour. Saturday we get a Chinese takeaway, It's 5 mins drive away to the shop. I insist on taking D7 with me leaving D10 and D12 at home. D7 says to me, "why do I have to go with you, Mummy leaves me at home" to which I say "That's nice, I'm not okay with leaving you here, you're coming with me". So, from D7's perspective I've left her with the question of which parent is "right" and which parent is "wrong". If Daddy is right, Mummy must be wrong and leaving me at home is bad, if Mummy is right, Daddy must be wrong and Daddy is being strict taking me with him. If this were to be discussed with W she would likely agree D7 should go with the adult to the takeaway, so I am modelling optimal behaviour, but in practice D7 would likely be left by my W if D7 challenged her on it. Me demonstrating optimal behaviour highlights W's sub-optimal behaviour and forces D's to make a judgement call (which she will as she likes to put things in little boxes). Yes I agree with FF that leadership is often a thankless task and I'm not fussed about making D7 do what I (and my W) think is the right thing to do... but isn't this alienating my W by proxy?... "things are different here, you get to decide which one you think is good/bad... better/worse... loving/unloving." Actively or not that's what my actions are telling D.

How is me showing my D's optimal behaviour any different from me overtly highlighting sub-optimal behaviour if it result in the same thought process?

Enabler/NL

[Skip]

"things are different here, you get to decide which one you think is good/bad... better/worse... loving/unloving." Actively or not that's what my actions are telling D.

I know we talked a while back about taking a parenting course and you were not very receptive. I'd encourage you to revisit that, NL.

I will share this. After that Chinese takeout event, it is unlikely your 7 year old daughter is processing that event on the metrics of which parent is good/bad... which parent is better/worse... which parent is loving/unloving. That last thing any of your girls want to do is judge one parent over another. They want you two to get back together (which is not going to happen), and the next best step down, is that they want you two to like each other and function without conflict. If the two of you get along better apart, the will feel better off.

When others have suggested teaching the children to function well in mom's environment, they were talking about the very thing you did in teaching the children to walk to school alone. Specifically, there was talk of a teaching a safety plan. Teaching the children a safety plan for when they are home alone is good - they already understand safety plans from the fire drills or active shooter drills at school. This stuff is good leadership.

But its important to do it solely to make the girls safer. Period. Be very careful not to be "motivated by" or to "subtlety layer on" implications that mom was "less" because she did not teach them a safety plan. A steady diet of that will not be good for them.

Question: Why would you not leave the 7 year old alone with her two sisters while you took a five minute errand? Did you do it because you felt you D7 would not be safe with her two older sisters for 5 minutes?

Question: Why did you say something unsettling like "I'm not okay with leaving you here, you're coming with me", rather than something upbeat like, "I need your help to..." or "I would like your company" or "Lets go play I spy". Do you think D7 possibly saw this as being about her in some negative way?

Sometimes its easier to see these things if we flip them around. What if your wife reacted to D7 as the three girls were cutting cheddar cheese at her house with adult knives. She takes the knife away from D7, hands the D7 a nylon knife with a teddy bear on it. When D7 says, "why can't I use a real knife like my sisters, Daddy lets me use real knives" your wife replies "I'm not okay with you using a real knife, you need to use a children's knife."  What do you think is going through D7's mind at that moment? A little confusion and on to the cheese sandwich? Feelings of a personal reprimand or lack of trust? The realization that NL is reckless with knives?

[worriedStepmom]

I've had to deal with several situations where mom and dad disagree on how to parent.  We present it as "dad gets to make the rules at his house.  mom gets to make the rules at her house.  This is the rule here."

There are no judgement words.  No "appropriate/inappropriate" or "wrong/right" or any adjectives at all.

I like this language because it reinforces that each parent is in charge and that we are equal.

[formflier]

New Life,

I'm still getting to know you, yet I'm starting to believe that you and I are similar in that details matter...GREATLY...to us, especially on matters of safety.

One of the lessons I have had to work really hard on over the years is to "stop looking at the trees" and "step back and look at the expanse of forest.  Basically...get out of details and stay big picture.

I'm curious what you think about the following.  

I will suggest that if there is a focus on "safety", there is an implicit message that your pwBPD is "unsafe" or "potentially unsafe".  I can't imagine that going over well and suspect your pwBPD will act out.  Kind of a self fulfilling prophecy.

I will also suggest that if the focus shifts to "supporting Mom" or "listening to Mom" or "being a better big sister"...etc etc, it's less likely that people involved will be triggered and the chances that your children will actually be safer go way up.

Two questions.

Can you follow my logic?

What do you think will be the result if you focused on this for 6 months or so?

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

Question: Why would you not leave the 7 year old alone with her two sisters while you took a five minute errand? Did you do it because you felt you D7 would not be safe with her two older sisters for 5 minutes?

Because consistency in message is important. For now the consistent message I would like to reinforce is that D7 is not left in the house without some sort of adult supervision. Why? Well among other reasons, conflict arises in continually negotiating which instances are instances where D7 needs to come with me and which instances she can stay here with D10 and D12. There are many many many areas of my parenting where I have first attempted to create a foundation of consistency and once that foundation has been formalise we then move forward in a clear consistent manner. Chaos is what prevailed before and ALL D's expressed discontent with inconsistency. Moving to a foundation of consistency first has bought calm and less chaos to the home... such as "No one gets down from the dinner table until we've all finished dinner". The rules have laxed now and there are reasons to get down from the table but, on the whole people stay at the table until dinner is over... less chaos, fewer arguments, dinners are eaten rather than distractions taking precedence, better conversations between us. What I learnt was that if there wasn't a consistent framework, the children would make up their own rules.

So... when consistency has been achieved new things will be added.

Question: Why did you say something unsettling like "I'm not okay with leaving you here, you're coming with me", rather than something upbeat like, "I need your help to..." or "I would like your company" or "Lets go play I spy". Do you think D7 possibly saw this as being about her in some negative way?

Because it was honest and consistent. BS promotes a lack of trust and is manipulative. BS is an invitation to negotiate "I don't want to play I Spy", "I don't want to help you". This is not negotiable. I am clear and honest with my communication. I am very sure D7 saw this being about her and saw it being about her being 7 years old. She knows that certain things happen as a function of age or become negotiable at a certain age.

Regarding the knife point, yes I can utterly appreciate that might be the case, and my W might object to that. I am happy to discuss that with my W and be consistent that the children using the sharp knives is okay since they have been trained to use sharp knives. I would be happy to have that conversation with friends, family, the vicar and a social worker as well. I am not certain my W could have the same consistent conversation with me... or the head teacher at the school she works at about leaving D7 with D10. D7 doesn't use the sharp knives unless I'm holding her hand training her.

worriedStepmom, I too use the line of "different rules in Dad's house", however even without being explicitly negative about the rules in my W's house there is an implicit assumption by the children that since we're not aligned I must think my way is better... and I'd refute the argument that children don't want to judge or weigh up difference... they very very much do and are verbal about it. It's not something I am concerned with (being implicitly negative) but wondering if I should be.

FF, who's responsibility is it to be better at supporting / listening / communicating? An adult, or a child? My W is not diagnosed with any medical disorder. For the children to provide "special" behaviour i.e. treat differently to other adults they would need justification. Here's an example:
 - D10 -  "I'm furious Dad, Mum said she would be here at 15:00 and she's over 2 hours late! I've tried calling her and messaging her and she ignores me"
- Me -  "Maybe she's stuck in prison doing her voluntary work, she won't have her phone with her in there?"
 - D10 -  "For 2 hours? She's a volunteer, she can just leave when she needs to. She's never on time and we end up waiting around for her for hours!"

W is consistently late, consistently disappoints the kids (and me) with time keeping and not just 10-15 mins but hours late. In this instance I attempted to provide excuses for Mum's delay on to be met by very very very reasonable and rational responses. What reasons are there to cut Mum more slack than other adults (support Mum)? At what point do I allow the children to freely decide what they support and what they don't support. At what point am I just encouraging them to support hurtful behaviour?

Enabler/NL

[formflier]

FF, who's responsibility is it to be better at supporting / listening / communicating? An adult, or a child? 

All of the above have the responsibility.  I don't believe it's an either or thing.

How do think about this?

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

I would say that a parent has a responsibility to be supportive / listen / communicate effectively towards children, and if they do that they will help better provide for their children's needs.

I think it is good for children to gain listening and communication skills not least to ensure they have their needs met and understand the needs of the rest of the family. I think if they grow to have spare capacity it's great for them to use some of that capacity to support the family in general. I wouldn't say they have a responsibility to contort around their parents dysfunction or excuse them. Many members here are the products of that kind of contortion around their parents needs rather than the other way round.

[worriedStepmom]

FF, who's responsibility is it to be better at supporting / listening / communicating? An adult, or a child? My W is not diagnosed with any medical disorder. For the children to provide "special" behaviour i.e. treat differently to other adults they would need justification. Here's an example:
 - D10 -  "I'm furious Dad, Mum said she would be here at 15:00 and she's over 2 hours late! I've tried calling her and messaging her and she ignores me"
- Me -  "Maybe she's stuck in prison doing her voluntary work, she won't have her phone with her in there?"
 - D10 -  "For 2 hours? She's a volunteer, she can just leave when she needs to. She's never on time and we end up waiting around for her for hours!"

Nope.  It's not your job to make excuses for mom.  With this conversation you are still part of the drama triangle, interfering with their relationship (even though this is a benign way), and you are also invalidating D10.  This type of outburst from D needs to be met with validation.  Ask her more about *her* feelings.  Ask if she wants coaching on how to talk to mom about her feelings or if she just wants to vent. 

My kids complain about their dad sometimes.  I *always* direct it back.  "Have you told Dad about that?  / How does that make you feel?  / Do you want to tell me more about it?" 

And they do notice that the rules are different in the two houses and make judgement calls.  The important difference between my method and yours is that they are using their own judgement, not mine.  They most likely infer my opinions, but they have to figure out for themselves what they want to believe.

[Enabler]

The important difference between my method and yours is that they are using their own judgement, not mine. 

Wow wow wow, D10 and D12 are not inferring my judgement, nor as some might lead you to think am I imparting my judgement on them, I don't think I have implied that... others here may have suggested that. In the case of D7 being left alone, I do not like that but neither do the kids and have never been pro it. Ironically my W is the only one that has threatened the kids that "If she has to leave them on their own and Dad finds out, Dad will call social services and they'll be taken away".

Others would seem to suggest (so I understand it) that I do make up some fudge/blag/BS to excuse my W's behaviours... and salve legitimate negative feelings my D's have about W's behaviours.

[formflier]

I would say that a parent has a responsibility to be supportive / listen / communicate effectively towards children, and if they do that they will help better provide for their children's needs.

I think it is good for children to gain listening and communication skills not least to ensure they have their needs met and understand the needs of the rest of the family. I think if they grow to have spare capacity it's great for them to use some of that capacity to support the family in general. I wouldn't say they have a responsibility to contort around their parents dysfunction or excuse them. Many members here are the products of that kind of contortion around their parents needs rather than the other way round.

What responsibility should children have?

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Others would seem to suggest (so I understand it) that I do make up some fudge/blag/BS to excuse my W's behaviours... and salve legitimate negative feelings my D's have about W's behaviours.

I'm curious what suggestions you have interpreted as such?  Can you share examples?

Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

NewLife,

If you had to assign a number to the anger you feel in general toward stbx (with 1 being low and 10 being high), what might it be?

[Turkish]

Ironically my W is the only one that has threatened the kids that "If she has to leave them on their own and Dad finds out, Dad will call social services and they'll be taken away".

But mom is still doing this, yes?

[Enabler]

But mom is still doing this, yes?

That is correct. To be factually correct she wasn't doing it and making threats. Then started doing it and stopped the threats.

If you had to assign a number to the anger you feel in general toward stbx (with 1 being low and 10 being high), what might it be?

Great question. Specifically "Anger" I'd say I was 2 so pretty low. I would say that 3-4 years ago I'd have been a 7 about this kind of stuff but I'd say a couple of things have changed in that time. There's a degree of being able to see separateness not only in the relationship but in parenting. For want of a better word 'the parenting' was once enmeshed so her actions and behaviours were a reflection of 'our' parenting so I would be angered by the fact that 'we' were doing stuff to the kids. Secondly the children now also see us as both as separate parents, they can differentiate between us both, and frankly her failings push the children closer to me... which is my point about implicit negatives.

If I look at this emotions wheel, I'd say I've moved from the right side (anger)  to the left side (surprised). You might argue that I am in the disgusted part of the pie but I don't feel that way. It's more of a perplex feeling of "What the heck is motivating you to do these silly things?"
 
https://allthefeelz.app/static/feelz/pdf/emotion_wheel_pdf__allthefeelz_dot_app.pdf

What responsibility should children have?

From what I understand there should be a transition from being a baby to an adult. Babies have everything done for them and are not expected to 'care' about anyone else. Adults are expected to care for their own needs and on the whole have capacity to care for others. Most adults are able to "trade" or offer for free this spare capacity in exchange for other desirable things. "kids" sit somewhere in the middle of this transect on their path from being a baby to an adult.

So -

D7 - Starting to do more and more things for herself, clean teeth, put dirty clothes in the laundry to be washed, wash her hair by herself, brush her hair by herself. Needs pretty close attention academically. She is responsible for small parts of looking after herself.  

D10 -  Be pretty self sufficient on personal hygiene, be en-route to self sufficiency academically and home learning. Can make her own lunch but I wouldn't hold her to it if she's getting her timing mixed up. She's responsible for larger parts of looking after herself but still needs a lot of support in managing the finer details.

D12 - She's very self sufficient in managing large parts of HER needs. She needs guidance with financial management and larger purchase decisions. She needs guidance with regards to navigating the choices she has available to her. She is responsible for being considerate of others such as being home at a communicated time for dinner from a friends house after school. She is asked to help on occasions in respect to things that directly benefit her, or as learning opportunities, such as coming food shopping or preparing meals. I do not need D12 to help me, but it's a good transition to later developmental stages.

I don't think this is far off the mark as to where each of them should be at this stage. At no point do I think it's ever a child's (<16) responsibility to systematically compensate for a parents failure to meet both the parents needs and the children's, however it's great if they did on occasions for a missed catch (not systemic). However, I also accept that it is fact of life for many children. I still see a difference between asking a child to do something as a learning opportunity i.e. I could easily food shop on my own, and asking them to take responsibility because another 'responsible' adult CHOOSES to neglect their responsibilities.

Enabler/NL

[formflier]

Thanks for your thoughtful response about responsibility.

I think that's the place you build.  

Let's speak plainly for a minute.  Evaluate whether or not you or your pwBPD is more qualified to teach/coach/motivate your children to learn/demonstrate/accept more responsibility.

It's ok, there is not a shadow of a doubt in my mind who is more qualified, more thoughtful about responsibility.  You are.  That is one of those "it is what it is" things.  

I'm hoping that somehow that we can encourage and guide you to focus PRIMARILY on "developing responsibility" in your kids.  EVEN IF it's coming at a faster pace than you think is wise or even safe.

Clarity:  I'm not suggesting you deliberately pick unsafe things to do in order to develop responsibility in your children.  I am suggesting that there are going to be lots of situations where you have little or no choice, that your comfort level with safety will be exceeded AND  that in most of those situations the greater good will come from you focusing on developing your responsibility in your kids.

You know yourself best...does this seem like a productive path?

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

FF,

That was very nicely put. That certainly frames things more comfortably.

Now, with that idea fresh in my head, at what point does the amount of training I offer them to take on excessive responsibility (that I might be uncomfortable with and might feel is unsafe) become irresponsible?

I am suggesting that there are going to be lots of situations where you have little or no choice, that your comfort level with safety will be exceeded AND  that in most of those situations the greater good will come from you focusing on developing your responsibility in your kids.

I would guess that our Children will also not be comfortable in these situations. How comes my W is the only one who seemingly gets to be comfortable whilst the rest of us walk on eggshells around her, taking on additional (and before the children's time) responsibilities, whilst my W sheds hers? Isn't that Enabling? Albeit it does seem like the only option given.

Enabler/NL

[Fian]

I would argue that your wife is not comfortable.  She is doing what she wants, but she also suffers the consequences.  Being selfish does not mean you have a great life.

[formflier]

Now, with that idea fresh in my head, at what point does the amount of training I offer them to take on excessive responsibility (that I might be uncomfortable with and might feel is unsafe) become irresponsible?

 

A wise question, and one of those "you know it when you know it" and most likely will only "know it in hindsight." 

I think I'm getting on your wavelength, so let's talk a bit about axioms.  And let's talk "Dad to Dad".

Why use axioms?  Well...we  are Dads and are "supposed to be" the big tough ones, the example of strength and all that. 

Yet...just between us Dads, it's ok to admit that underneath all that we would really love to bubble wrap our children, the most precious thing in the world to us.  But wait..there is more..

As I read this you have 3 daughters...   Hey man..I get it.  I've got 4 of them (4 boys and 4 girls).  There is a different way a Father looks at/worries about/expresses concern about his daughters.

OK..saying all this to say it's solid to admit there are STRONG emotions involved.  Furthermore use axioms so that emotions of the moment don't contribute too much.

1.  You are going to make some calls you wish you could do over.  (I've lost count)

2.  Your children are likely more resilient than you realize.  When your calculated risks don't go they way you plan (see axiom 1)...rest in axiom 2 and just love your kids.

Last...I'm a military guy and perhaps this last axiom will help you to smile and chuckle.

3.  If your plans are going according to plan...you should be worried, you've missed something.

The "plan" is what you use as a measuring stick. 

"Oh wow, D10 was so much more responsible than I figured she would be."

Take those data points and make deliberate..slow adjustments to the plan over time.

You've got this!

Best,

FF

[Skip]

Isn't that Enabling? Albeit it does seem like the only option given.

You may be confusing enabling with interventing.

Enabling is deeply caring for someone and trying to help and supporting them and in the process, helping facilitate some self-destructive behavior.

Interventing is the interference in the affairs of another for the purpose of compelling them to do or forbear doing certain things.

What is being talked about here is not enabling

...	its about "helping and supporting" the children within your domain. Inevitably, your wife is bound to get some collateral benefit of those actions, true. The opposite would be to try to control and punish your wife. Inevitably, your children will suffer collateral damage.

Which sounds better to you?

Your wife is dissolving the marriage and is seeking sovereignty. She is trying to break away. It's a big transition for the both of you. You're struggling to accept/respect her independence/sovereignty and adopt healthy boundaries.

Think of it this way.

You have no control over the police. You teach your children to best function within their rules.

You have no control over the school. You teach your children how to best function within their system.

You have no control over the sports coaches. You teach your children to best function in their environment.

You have no control over colleges. You teach your children to best function in their environment.

In all of the above cases, you wouldn't give a thought to enabling or to intervention with these entities. You accept their sovereignty and you teach your children to navigate it for their best outcomes.

It's kinda where you need to be with the other parent when there is a divorce.

If the school lets D7 ride a bike without training wheels, is it better for you to make D7 use them at your house to preserve your feelings of consistency or  and let her ride without training wheels and preserve hers?

In an ideal world, it would be best for your seven old to have 100% adult supervision. No one can argue that. But the reality is that mom is going to leave the kids alone in short bursts. You have to decide if this is a hill to die on (call CPS) or just a less than ideal situation that you need to teach them to be best prepared for.

[Enabler]

Skip,

You and I must live in different worlds. The world that I live is accountable and there are ways to influence (on the whole) upwards, downwards and sideways. Taking one of your examples:

You have no control over the school. You teach your children to best function within their system.

The school has a 2 way dialogue with the parents. There are parents evenings where the teachers and parents meet with each other and discuss progress, that is a genuine 2 way process. There is a board of governors made up of elected (by parents) adults, some of which are parents. These people direct the schools management and 'control' it. I have had the opportunity to nominate myself for these roles. The school is regulated by OfSTED which is the government agency tasked with oversight of schools in the UK. When OfSTED do an inspection the parents are sent a questionnaire and asked for feedback and any specific information, I can influence here. If I had any specific concerns about something at the school I could approach the headmaster and he is obliged to be accountable to me. If he doesn't take my concerns seriously or my concerns are serious enough I have an array of other choices to influence control. I could put my concerns to OfSTED, I could put my concerns to the police or I could remove my D's from the school and place them in another school. I could even choose to home school my kids if I chose to. I am not helpless in the situation and have control over my children's education.

The fact is that I am content that the system is well designed, honed by many decades of teaching experience and school management. I have confidence that "the system" is better placed than I am to know how best to teach my children and I have certainty that IF I were to have concerns, those concerns will be dealt with effectively, because each person in the system is accountable, in part, to me. I have confidence that the system is self learning and has appropriate feedback loops.

I teach my children to have respect for the systems they work in and get as much as possible from the system as they can. This typically means going with the system not against it because the system is well designed and as mentioned has feedback loops for improvement. However, I teach my children that they are part of that system and as such they can contribute to the system to promote change and they are not helpless and can take some control over how the system works for them.

In all your examples I can see how I have some control yet not complete control, myself and my children have the ability to influence and actually take control if we were to believe that working with the system was seriously detrimental to our health or broken. You say:

Your struggling to accept/respect her independence/sovereignty and adopt healthy co-parenting or parallel parenting boundaries.

Firstly I do not have no issues at all accepting my W's rite and request for sovereignty (the authority of a state to govern itself or another state.) You are right though, I do not respect how she is governing "her people". I accept and acknowledge that I have no authority with which to directly dictate how she governs hence the original dilemma. My W is not truly independent, putting the financial elements aside, we share childcare responsibilities, something she is very clear about. She is very clear that I am responsible for them whilst in her care as well as my own. I am not not prepared to form a co-parenting alliance with my W, and would if the environment was appropriate to do so... but it doesn't seem sensible to form an alliance with someone who systematically reneges on agreements and frequently uses any agreement to negatively impact me and my relationship with the kids.

I would like to be in a position where I can teach the children how to work with the domestic system they're in, but empower them to influence that system to work better for them and confront that system when it's failing them. I haven't sufficiently resolved whether or not I should be working on their behalf to influence or confront the system for them... and by not doing so I a allowing the system to disadvantage them (enabling).

Enabler/NL

[Enabler]

FF,

If I'm honest the plan (high level) is effective bar snags like this issue. That said, I don't know whether success is a result of any plan I might have made, or a handful of random events that have resulted in positive things falling in my lap.

That said, part of the plan is to be prepared to snaffle opportunity like a truffle pig, as and when it comes along.

Also, whilst being honest I would say that although I fear my own regret (I have too many to count as well), I fear condemnation from others more (on specific topics I've put effort into)... which is odd because typically I'm not the guy who cares what others think. But, maybe I am more sensitive to being told I am "bad" or "wrong" (on specific topics) and have a more fragile ego that I thought. Specifically if I was to pin-point it I do not like being accused of intentionally causing harm to others, probably because I go to a lot of effort to avoid that.

Enabler/NL