Paradoxes

[forevermagenta]

I’m told that a person with BPD idealizes their partner, but was I not idealizing them?  That they be who I wanted them to be and not a person with this pesky condition? How I held onto this ideal!

I’m told that a pwBPD splits. But, do I not split in response to this? The rollercoaster I stayed on. Who is to say, in subtle ways, I don’t split first. The pwBPD would probably be the first to say I was the one to split first. And maybe I did, in more cunning, subtle ways that only someone trained since birth for their survival would detect?

I’m told the pwBPD mirrors me, looking for that ideal parent, so we can enmesh- emotional hooks can be placed, but why do I NEED this mirroring to feel complete?  What was I searching for in them? What kind of burden and expectation did I, without thought, allow them to take up? (Allow?) Why did I need to enmesh?

I’m told the pwBPD projects my identity back or an identity I desire, but I WANTED that- I projected an identity on them, as someone who delivers myself to me. Who is self-centred now?

Did the pwBPD gaslight me? Or am I gaslighting myself right now?

Did the pwBPD suffer from amnesia (disassociation, trauma response) that was used to shift reality?  Or did I disassociate,  in response, and thereby participate in my dysfunctional way?

Am I experiencing all this because BPD is “contagious” and the traits rub off on each other (environment)? Or have I been this way all along and I am only just seeing it?

If I sit in blame, as a victim, I persecute. I cannot teach or show anything. They perceive persecution as perpetual victims. And I want to rescue. For my own sake, I cannot sit in blame and be self-righteous, if only, in part, as it increases my susceptibility to rescue again. My will power alone won’t suffice, in terms of NC. (But maybe it will have to do the heavy lifting for a while.)

And, still now, I idealize/devalue by wondering - did I just interact with a zombie or some suffering martyred mystery of the universe that is allowing me to see things differently while they carry on like the Tasmanian devil. Or, just another human being (?).

I danced with the void and the void was me.

[Mutt]

Am I experiencing all this because BPD is “contagious” and the traits rub off on each other (environment)? Or have I been this way all along and I am only just seeing it?

BPD fleas is a term but it’s temporary - we tend to pick up the anxiety and depression that is fostered in the environment with a pwBPD.

For my own sake, I cannot sit in blame and be self-righteous, if only, in part, as it increases my susceptibility to rescue again. My will power alone won’t suffice, in terms of NC. (But maybe it will have to do the heavy lifting for a while.)

I think that you’re in the right path with using critical thinking and suggest to emotionally detach in these situations were you feel like you’re being pulled into a persecutor or rescuer role - remain in the center with taking either roles and observe.

You may find some of the answers to your question in this book usually ( not always ) the reasons why we stay in a r/s with a pwBPD is because of our FOO ( Family of Origin ) projecting our parents into our partners or we learn coping strategies in our childhood to deal with the emotionally depriving environment.

For example you mention idealization sometimes we have healing fantasies were we have magical thinking as children if I behave a certain then that will register with my parent and they’ll synchronize with me and recognize me dit the person that I am. Sometimes we transfer these skills that we learned into adult r/s’s and use that magical thinking - if I try hard enough in the r/s the pwBPD will see the r/s from my perspective.

That said that same validation that we were starved for as children we live through a healing fantasy and try to magically fix our partners.

I don’t want to generalize we have members from all walks of life and from different families and castes and some members don’t have FOO issues.

This is a good book that you can get audible.com

Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents ~ Lindsay Gibson. PsyD

Good discussion  

[once removed]

you are asking questions that i would consider vital to the Detaching process.

they are also questions for the latter stages of Detaching. is that where you feel you are?

to answer your questions generally, there isnt anything you will read about "bpd behaviors" that are not behaviors we have all engaged in, to lesser or greater extremes. people with bpd traits just tend to be on the more extreme side of them. that doesnt necessarily mean that we dont, ourselves, though. for example, mirroring is an ordinary, normal behavior, one that we all do, one that facilitates bonding, and one that, in the earliest stages of our development, is vital to receive from our caregivers. on the more extreme end, you can over depend on mirroring someone else, or you can over depend on being mirrored.

there were a lot of these things that you are asking yourself that i had to look at, about myself, and frankly, i had to look at them many times, over time, with new, informed, fresh perspective.

so, ill just ask it: how much of this is rhetorical, stuff you are discovering and grappling with and considering, and how much of it are you prepared, in your detaching process, to tackle head on?

[forevermagenta]

Been off the site a while - I binged pretty hard on 2010 posts and had a lot to digest. Also, wanted to just feel the natural rhythm of my thoughts/feeling towards my ex without continual virtual reminders (although the push /accountability to process I see as invaluable as well).

It has been four months since I have seen my ex and one month since we communicated.

For the most part, the last three weeks have  been marked by more acceptance - through reading and understanding the condition more and working with a therapist versed in BPD. That said, I heard ten seconds of  a nostalgic song the other night and boy was bargaining activated. All the pleasantness (idealization, morroring, positive intensity, responsive sex) came back - and I started MISSING him and WONDERING (doubting my judgement which felt so clear - or split(?) in earlier moments).

I know the stages of detachment aren’t linear and I could oscillate - especially at this early stage (just think: it has really only been 30! days since our last communication), but I sense the general trend is towards letting go. Although I do have a magnificent ability to FORGET and See/Want/Need the best in others (survival, childhood). It is wild how two weeks ago I was in the grips of stalking fears and now I have impulsive soft, warm thoughts towards him (which I will let ride, of course).

As I read what I wrote a number of weeks ago, I experience a similar visceral sensation of my mind freezing or locking into place - almost mental paralysis- which feels on the one hand empty of meaning and also full on awakenening that I can’t verbally name. Hence the title: paradox. Like something is clicking on a deeper level and eventually i will catch up.

I admit part of me just wants to be done with it, let go, move on and another part of me is afraid that I am moving too quickly (through “critical thinking” and understanding which generally comes quickly for me). Am I numbing out? Is more excorcism possible? The gifts of BPD, as others have shared.  I don’t want to miss the great opportunity. But, perhaps I am fooling myself as that snippet of that song proved. . Part of me is wondering about listening to more and letting my body process all the grief and memories that likely are encapsulated in certain songs. Also, might just instigate depression. Open it all up again. Another part of me is trying to maintain control - my life is very demanding at this stage - I don’t know how up for major, deep processing I am.

Hard to say if the above is just rhetoric - I think as you mention, once removed, that these questions will be revisited with fresh perspective as needed. Some days, it is rhetoric. Other days, when I’m game,  it’s real.

I will check out that book you mentioned Mutt- likely the shoe fits to some degree. And I like that that reading could take the focus off BPD behaviour/patterns and more to my propensity and susceptibility, in general.

This quote struck a chord today:

“The greater the doubt, the greater the awakening; the smaller the doubt, the smaller the awakenening. No doubt, no awakening.” -c.c. Chang

[Gemsforeyes]

And yet  forevermagenta, perhaps one COULD reach the day, the moment, where your voice whispers... maybe screams to you “I doubt nearly EVERYTHING he is saying.  I am FINALLY awake.”   So no more doubt, great awakening. 

Detachment.  Your heart belongs again to you, to share as you please.  It always WAS yours to share.  We forget that.

Your writing, how you express your thoughts... is beautiful.  Thank you.

Warmly,
Gems

[TerribleHats]

For what it's worth, I have had a lot of the same internal convos.

I think they're healthy. Once you know that person is sick, a lot of feelings get displaced in odd directions and if you're prone to introspection I bet it'll turn into a lot of critical thinking and rumination.

I think this is better than just hating them (see: splitting) as you force yourself to grow and understand.

 

[Mutt]

Hi forevermagenta,

I want to echo the others - that’s very articulate.

As I read what I wrote a number of weeks ago, I experience a similar visceral sensation of my mind freezing or locking into place - almost mental paralysis- which feels on the one hand empty of meaning and also full on awakenening that I can’t verbally name. Hence the title: paradox. Like something is clicking on a deeper level and eventually i will catch up.

That clicking on  a deeper level sounds like it could be an awakening  

[forevermagenta]

Yes, isn’t it wild, Gems, how potentially everything he said could be doubted. I have my moments where I grasp this. It’s an unreal condition- as it is so volatile and real (felt abandonment), but also empty. Grasp and grasp and the more ghost-like they become. That why I keep thinking of voids and veils.

I love what you said about our hearts always being ours to share - what a concept. I could have cried reading that - and I’m not sure why. It’s interesting through this post-relationship understanding of BPD that I came across (through therapists suggestion) a description of covert narcissism. It describes ten years of my life that were previously unexplainable to me  (long term/on/off relationship- my first real boyfriend). It goes to show- I have been doing this dance unaware for a while. FOG and freedom to share our hearts don’t mix.

That’s funny you pick out that segment, Mutt. I can hope! It was funny, I spent a whole evening in that locked brain state as I considered all these paradox type questions above. I felt so confused and aware all at once and wondered if this is the state that zen monks perpetually live in. And when I tried to become more aware of this awareness, it would disappear and move just slightly out of grasp. I still can tap into glimmers of that strange mind state. And while it is a neat/unusual sensation, I do hope it means something deeper shifting. I suspect and hope so - it just might be outside of language’s grasp. Seems like that’s where important change might happen- before the intellect gets involved.

[once removed]

these questions will be revisited with fresh perspective as needed. Some days, it is rhetoric. Other days, when I’m game,  it’s real.

the things youre talking about: mirroring, idealization, splitting. we all do these things, to lesser or greater degrees. they are human nature.

some of the keys to the puzzles youre trying to unlock apply to those greater degrees - perhaps for both of you. some of them apply to the lesser degrees, the human nature. the bond between you, the differences between you, the conflict between you.

i dont mean to be vague and grand about it. i mean that perspective, when trying to detach, often comes from sorting out the two...the pathological, on the more extreme end, and the human nature stuff.

but why do I NEED this mirroring to feel complete?

this is a perfect example.

we all need to be mirrored. it facilitates bonding and connection and feelings of acceptance. talk about "being okay on our own" is cool and all, and i subscribe to it, but we are wired for bonding.

how much do we need to be mirrored? whats a healthy level and an unhealthy level? like you, 2010s posts pushed me to examine that same question. its a good one to explore. its a good one to think on how it played out in our relationship. perhaps how it has played out in past relationships, and how it might in future ones.

Am I experiencing all this because BPD is “contagious” and the traits rub off on each other (environment)?

the short answer is no. the longer answer is more complicated.

ever watched or listened to some true crime stuff? ive heard a lot of stories about couples that murder, where its postulated that had they never met, one or neither would have ever had such an inclination. i tend to accept that, but not at face value.

i said and did a lot of things i had never done in previous relationships, and probably will never do again. i have learned enough about myself since the relationship ended to know that that wasnt some spell she cast on me; it was my reaction to stress, to adversity. it was always in me. everyone is a great driver in an empty parking lot. i dont stand to learn much if i put that on her.

youre on the right track. keep digging  

[forevermagenta]

That’s helpful - I appreciate you reiterating the basics: separating normal, healthy mirroring from pathological. Sometimes I get so lost in the maze, I forget the basics.

I suppose I could reframe my query from “why do I need this level of mirroring” (still a worthwhile question, on a deeper level) to “why was I not skeptical about this level of mirroring?” - or how can I develop this skepticism? A big part, for me, is taking my responses and reactions more seriously - that they have value.

Looking back, not only was there the insidious interpersonal mirroring, but he wanted to buy the same car as me and  he bought a house (a huge house suited to a family) when he previously lived in a studio apartment and, yes, you guessed it - I HAVE a family and am looking to buy a house of the description he bought. He started wearing clothes made of a particular material that I really like - and instead of feeling “oh that’s nice, he is taking me into consideration”, it felt a bit heeby -jeeby and leechy. I had a physical reaction of discomfort. It’s funny as I seemed a lot more skeptical of these physical mirroring/identity theft than the interpersonal stuff.

It is possible I may remain susceptible to the desire for intense mirroring (or it could be a really long haul), but, on a practical level, there are simple things I can do - like take note and avoid becoming isolated with person. It would have been really interesting to see him in  a setting where there were other people he was close to present.

And thanks for your thoughts re: contagiousness. And the value in owning it / the lost learning if we discard that part of ourselves. It’s fhe willingness to ignore my own limits and let myself go too far down the bottomless pit of rescuing (even if couched in terms like mediating, diplomacy) that reaches a point of desperation and eventually visceral reaction (body shaking in stress response listening to him, as an example) that became intolerable to me. It’s a throwing your PLEASE READty habits back in your face experience.

[once removed]

it felt a bit heeby -jeeby and leechy. I had a physical reaction of discomfort. It’s funny as I seemed a lot more skeptical of these physical mirroring/identity theft than the interpersonal stuff.

so it makes sense that you might conclude "next time i want to look for someone who is a bit more independent" (for example).

reality, unfortunately, is not that simple. most of my relationships were dysfunctional. each partner was very different, some version of what i had decided was the very different thing i wanted. which is not to discourage you from doing the inventory of the things you want in a partner(!), but to put your emphasis on what really makes relationships go round - in a healthy way. independence in a relationship is generally healthy; taken to extremes, not so much. and you dont want to learn the lesson that intensity in a relationship is bad, or, necessarily, a new partner being a bit of a copycat is, either.

you say it felt heeby jeeby and leechy, and yet, your attraction either sustained, or grew. what do you think about that?